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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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UBPDHelp
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« on: March 26, 2021, 09:07:39 PM »

Just stopping by to say hello and a brief update.

First, I have been so busy at work and with kid stuff, I barely come up for air. I don’t have a choice b/c I need my job and it’s busy.

I’ve interviewed several lawyers at this point but haven’t settled on one. One believes we can use the documented abuse as leverage to get a more favorable settlement.

One thinks a collaborative divorce would work and it sounds great, BUT what are the chances?  I certainly can, and I don’t want much, but I just think he will likely dysregulate mid stream.  She also says my 14 yo won’t get to decide whether she sees dad (she begs me not to).  I guess kids deciding at a certain age is just in the movies.

I have another who is an ex-marine and will go toe to toe if necessary. He comes up for high conflict divorce. I think he may be what I need BUT he has been disciplined by the bar —he had a r/s with a client. I don’t plan to be on some moral high ground but at the very least feel like that may be something my H would exploit. How?  Not sure, but feel like he’d find a way. Probably accuse me, idk.

Personal update. He was not talking to me in December. I was totally fine with it. Came around we did a normal for kids Christmas. Made it to “normal” until early January. Every dinner was a crazy political rant, talk of bombing whole countries of people, saying whole groups of people should be wiped from the Earth. Racist, sexist, homophobic commentary. Simply could not listen. Politely tried to redirect.  Went to bed one night, woke up to hours of silence and then the crazy ranting texts.

That was January and we haven’t seen or spoken to each other since. Occasional text message about bills. Crazy rants, disgusting text messages. I simply stop replying and never reply crazy back ever. Just don’t care.

He’s run over the garbage bins I left behind my car.  The driveway has 3 cars and no where to put it out for pickup except behind his car, my car or daughter’s car. I’m only one not going out so I put it behind mine. He took my car and ran over the garbage ( huge bins).

I can’t drive his car so I told him he can’t leave me without a car.  Another rant. I know even though very mild mannered text, it didn’t meet BPD requirements. Sorry, I just don’t have the strength. He took my car as manipulation.

He refuses to lock the door when he leaves. Sometimes the door is ajar. I’ll get out of the shower with the front door wide open and he’s on his way to work. I politely told him he needs to lock the door. I’m home, kids are home. He said no. Told me things change. He literally has told us we’re in the brink of being murdered for 20+ years and to lock the door.

I debate saying anything. Partially want to document the behavior and his refusals but know it gives him ammunition for what upsets me.

The door he won’t lock?  I bought a $150 remote lock that I can lock the deadbolt from my phone. So when I’m sitting on a video call at work and he leaves the door unlocked, I can lock it. His key still works, I can just lock remotely. I asked Lawyer and was told it was fine. Things change both ways!

The housing market here is horrendous right now. Houses are off the market the same day. There are no rentals. Talk is with vaccine people will move back into cities so hopefully the market will change.

Had a couple online therapists but haven’t found a fit yet. And time is limited so search has been tough. Still working on it.

Hope everyone here is doing well!
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PearlsBefore
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« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2021, 10:02:54 PM »

I'm not sure what an r/s is (assuming it's romance/sex?), but if your lawyer wasn't disciplined for actually fabricating evidence or maliciously prosecuting someone innocent, etc...I wouldn't worry about it. He was disciplined by The Bar (the "Union" of lawyers, essentially), not disciplined by the Courts...which means judges don't likely care about it.

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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2021, 01:45:04 AM »

If you file for divorce, in many states you can file to have temporary possession of the family home during the divorce process.  Don't assume you're the one to take the kids and move out.  Have you asked that question of the lawyers you've consulted?  If granted, then it's his problem to figure out where to live.  After all, he's an adult, a grown man.

I have a motto about that.  Years ago in my office we had a truism... "Don't assume the answer is No and not ask, rather, ask and the answer may be Yes."
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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2021, 06:57:40 AM »

Hi Pearl,

R/s is relationship (in this case, of a romantic nature).

On a attorney review site, said attorney responded to the notice of disciplinary action along the lines of...yep, if you don’t want a handsome lawyer asking you out, I’m not your man.  Kind of sketchy, but honestly it’s not the worst behavior I’ve seen and not concerned I’d fall prey to that nonsense.

Feels narcissistic but not personal to me and I wonder if a good match for UBPD/NPD H.  He’s the only one I’ve found that directly discusses dealing with PDs. But he would need to counter that ability with attempting calm, firm resolve from the get go with the ability to step up as needed.

He has another situation that gives me pause — a client who is the ex-wife of an attorney who is charged with aiding/abetting one of his clients with murdering his ex-wife. The media suggests they were “helping” each other get rid of their ex-wives, but got caught before they got to her (that other attorney’s clients ex-wife has been missing for 2 yrs, presumed dead (5 little kids) and the ex-husband committed suicide in prison last year...sure it’s in the news...and half hour from us).

The attorney I am interested in is NOT accused of anything. His client just happens to be the 2nd intended victim in that case, which wasn’t known until well into the divorce process.  Unreal. Just uncertain how much I should be concerned with his clientele. Ugh.

The two other attorneys say they can deal with high-conflict but not certain how to tell. 

The most recent is very no nonsense but thought collaborative would work and knows my H’s best friend who is a divorce attorney and thinks he would represent him. I don’t feel like my H would want his dirty laundry in front of his friend so makes me question if she really understands true high conflict PDs.

Any thoughts?

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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2021, 07:18:41 AM »

Thanks ForeverDad.

Agree. The first lawyer said we could file for temporary restraining and get him out of the house (or likely).  I hesitate b/c I think it will ramp things up. He has family around and places to stay but that would be embarrassing to him (and maybe shameful) and just pi$$ him off more.

I can’t buy anything without it becoming marital property unless by agreement. Chances?

I agree on asking. I know divorce is in order. When is unclear —I can’t afford to stay in the house even with support and literally nowhere to go right now.

But I also know the sooner I get out, the sooner I heal.  It’s odd because I feel like this last year has allowed me to see this all more clearly and I feel like I’ve gone through most of the grief stages (denial, anger, acceptance...). I am so disappointed in myself for allowing myself to be in this situation for soo long and allowing my children to remain in such an unhealthy environment. 

What I don’t have entirely is confidence in my decisions. I literally waffle 10x, sometimes on simple things. Maybe I’ve always been this way but I suspect not. I believe whether purposeful or unintentional, his questioning or demeaning or screaming at my decisions has made me tremendously less confident to make them. I’m working on it.

True story — I work with a few different reps. All different personalities and we get along just fine. One is known for being “difficult” but in truth I think he just gets frustrated when people don’t do their jobs. I do my best and we haven’t had an issue. For one of his clients I work on with him, I identified a couple of potential issues. They were stressing me and I pinged him and asked if he had a few minutes to chat. I called him and explained the two situations, what I thought was the correct approach and asked if he was okay. He said that is what he would do and it was okay for me just to take care of those things and he would always have my back. I thanked him and told him it meant a lot.

I got off the phone and cried for a full 5 minutes that this person I have never met in person, have worked with for 9 months had my (work) back.  Go figure...but I bet a lot of people on here can.

Sorry for the long, off-topic reply.

As always appreciate your thoughts and advice.
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« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2021, 08:23:55 PM »


So..the one that wants to try collaborative divorce.  I would ask what is the downside for trying that?

On the other guy...do you really want a sketchy person helping you out?   

Best,

FF
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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2021, 09:14:31 PM »

So..the one that wants to try collaborative divorce.  I would ask what is the downside for trying that?

Potentially time and money. If it breaks down you have to get new attorneys. Those attorneys can no longer represent you in the divorce.

I can compromise. I don’t know if he could or what the likelihood collaborative would work.  

The other way around —20% chance of success, 80% chance spend 10K + year and have to get new attorney and start over.

Excerpt
On the other guy...do you really want a sketchy person helping you out?  

Not really but only one I’ve found that I think truly understands depth of PDs. Maybe I have to keep looking or take a leap of faith.

There’s contentious and then there’s BPD contentious. If you haven’t seen it, you only think you know.

Thanks FF  

Best,

FF
[/quote]
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« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2021, 12:58:56 AM »

What you've told me wouldn't change my mind about choosing him as my lawyer, if I were in your shoes - for whatever that's worth.
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« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2021, 11:35:14 AM »

Think about sitting in a deposition or a settlement conference with your lawyer, your husband, and his lawyer. Think about the worst behavior you can imagine from your H.

Which lawyer have you interviewed would handle your H's behavior best?
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« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2021, 09:19:38 PM »

What you've told me wouldn't change my mind about choosing him as my lawyer, if I were in your shoes - for whatever that's worth.

Thanks Pearls. Still trying to decide.
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« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2021, 09:28:56 PM »

Think about sitting in a deposition or a settlement conference with your lawyer, your husband, and his lawyer. Think about the worst behavior you can imagine from your H.

Which lawyer have you interviewed would handle your H's behavior best?

GaGrl, thanks. This is a good point.

The first lawyer said some things like that while he’s undiagnosed and courts may/may not accept the raging texts, etc., as evidence of bad behavior, they could be leverage for something else. I think that’s true and I like the strategy.

 I also like that she seems very even keel, which might be beneficial in not escalating things.  I just don’t know how to confirm she really can handle ratcheted up behavior, like she says.

The last lawyer I have a fair amount of confidence can handle the bad behavior but I believe his approach is very offensive and aggressive from the start. Not sure that’s wise.

May be leaning to first lawyer with last lawyer as backup.

Have a new situation I may need help with but in the morning cause I gotta go to bed!

Thanks GaGrl for your help.
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« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2021, 09:29:17 PM »

Deleted...double post.
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« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2021, 07:31:52 AM »

Still looking/hoping for that aha moment on which attorney to choose.  Stuck in my inability to make a big decision.  

Leaning toward the one that I feel most comfortable with that says has experience with high conflict (and leveraging strategies I think might work with BPD/NPD) and see. If have to switch to ex-marine, it may end up costing more $ in the end, but may be worth it.

Thoughts on whether this strategy would work on PDs...

H is, I believe, narcissistic (so many red flags I too easily wrote off as quirks, when piled together SCREAM at me).

H is professional who likes to be everyone’s hero.

Does not like to be embarrassed, ever. And sometimes on little things. If I were to say, in public, let’s get this one, it’s on sale and he thought a total stranger heard me, he’d be furious. So many examples, so little time.

So, lawyer said that while we can’t introduce BPD and maybe even not the rage texts, we could use them as leverage to not release them into evidence if he agreed to x.  Feels borderline blackmail...thoughts?

What I want...

Majority custody
Love decision making, tie breaker status
Alimony (26 years, stay at home, work from home mom)
Obvs child support

He maintains life insurance (can make kids direct beneficiaries, or older kids for younger kids)
He maintains health insurance for kids
Pays his portion for college for younger 2 like older 2
Helps pay older 2’s student loans like he said he would (not much, but he told them he would pay)

Sell house, split any profit.
He takes his car, I take mine.  He can have 3rd car.
Split furnishings, dishes, decorations, etc.

Kids, parents retain all personal belongings — clothes, TVs, devices, room decorations, etc

Any thoughts?

Thank you !



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« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2021, 08:20:38 AM »

Of course you are second-guessing yourself.  You've been living with someone who can be incredibly irrational, and after all you start wondering if it is you and not him.  I'm so glad you've found someone at work who believes in you!

Have your lawyer consults told you what is the standard settlement in your area?  In mine, for example, the custody split is generally 60/40, and the non-primary parent is required to pay health insurance for minor kids.

In my area, the lawyer told me a judge wouldn't force anyone to maintain life insurance.  She said that the courts assume the surviving parent would get social security funds for the young children, and that would take the place of child support so everyone would be okay.  In my area, also, the courts won't enforce any agreement about college costs - they only care about minors.  Other areas are different, and do allow those things.  It's best to know up front so you can decide where to put your efforts in negotiation.

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« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2021, 08:26:25 AM »



H is professional who likes to be everyone’s hero.

Does not like to be embarrassed, ever. And sometimes on little things. If I were to say, in public, let’s get this one, it’s on sale and he thought a total stranger heard me, he’d be furious. So many examples, so little time.
 

This seems to be what you try to use first.  The only way to know if it will work..is to try it.

In other words, try to start off low conflict, you stay in house with kids...no need to club each other over the head with issues and things.  

If he decided he wants to break out his club...cross that bridge if you get there.  

He is a L...he will have his own L...my guess is that your L can communicate with his L...and his L can somewhat manage the outbursts that you know will come.

Switching gears.

Why sell house...why not have him sign it over to you via quit claim.  Are you on the mortgage?  Is the rate good or would a refi be beneficial anyway.  (think about kids here...keep their "home" as stable as possible and improve it if possible..less change is better)

How does all of this sound to you?

Back to the original question.  I've obviously followed your story for a while...it has come through loud and clear that "image" matters to your hubby.  Use that to your advantage.  

Best,

FF
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« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2021, 09:17:51 PM »

Of course you are second-guessing yourself.  You've been living with someone who can be incredibly irrational, and after all you start wondering if it is you and not him.  I'm so glad you've found someone at work who believes in you!

Thanks for understanding.  Irrational, yes. Confusing, yes.

It’s taken me a long time to understand that the good, “typical” behavior was the facade. I thought the “breaks” were not typical. 

Excerpt
Have your lawyer consults told you what is the standard settlement in your area?  In mine, for example, the custody split is generally 60/40, and the non-primary parent is required to pay health insurance for minor kids.

I’ve heard differing on custody. I’m hoping for 80/20; I’d like more.

In truth, I would give him 50/50 IF I thought it was best for kids. But he can’t control his emotions and it’s too destructive for them. 

The second lawyer said 2 days/2 days/3 days and the opposite week it’s the other parent that gets the 3 day, so in effect 50/50.

I think that’s horribly disruptive to everyone, especially kids.

I don’t want to deny him entirely, but I do think best interest is limited.

And I’d like supervised at least initially OR if any reports of speeding or screaming, etc.

Excerpt
In my area, the lawyer told me a judge wouldn't force anyone to maintain life insurance.  She said that the courts assume the surviving parent would get social security funds for the young children, and that would take the place of child support so everyone would be okay.  In my area, also, the courts won't enforce any agreement about college costs - they only care about minors.  Other areas are different, and do allow those things.  It's best to know up front so you can decide where to put your efforts in negotiation.

What happens to alimony if no life insurance?

College seems to be on the table because it’s what he did for older so would be expected to do for younger. He has the means if he doesn’t waste it on vacations and stuff.


Thanks worried Stepmom!
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« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2021, 09:46:28 PM »

This seems to be what you try to use first.  The only way to know if it will work..is to try it.

In other words, try to start off low conflict, you stay in house with kids...no need to club each other over the head with issues and things.  

If he decided he wants to break out his club...cross that bridge if you get there.  

Yea, I feel like I’d rather just try not to make things worse but be prepared to fight fire with fire.

Excerpt
He is a L...he will have his own L...my guess is that your L can communicate with his L...and his L can somewhat manage the outbursts that you know will come.

Yes, this would be true. They either get to see his dysregulation or he behaves. I guess a win-win, but will dictate my approach going forward.

Excerpt
Switching gears.

Why sell house...why not have him sign it over to you via quit claim.  Are you on the mortgage?  Is the rate good or would a refi be beneficial anyway.  (think about kids here...keep their "home" as stable as possible and improve it if possible..less change is better)

How does all of this sound to you?

He quit claimed it to me years ago to protect in case he got sued. B/c he had the income, the mortgage is in his name only.

The house is more than I can afford so as much as I’d love to stay put, it’s really not feasible. I can’t really afford to stay in this town at all unless an inexpensive house opens up.

I anticipate getting alimony and child support. My goal is to try to buy a lessor house and pay 1.5 payments each month to try to pay off by time I retire/collect SS.  I’d like to save as much of the child support as I can to use for kids college.  And then try to save a bunch more. We have no retirement (husband was always one case away, in his words). The first lawyer said I should focus on paying off credit cards over putting to 401k right now. Less debt leaving and he could claim half of 401k. So after divorce I will step up as much as I can.

Reasonable goals?  Thoughts?

Excerpt
Back to the original question.  I've obviously followed your story for a while...it has come through loud and clear that "image" matters to your hubby.  Use that to your advantage.  

Best,

FF

Agree.  Yet he proclaims to not give a hoot what anyone thinks.

Curious though...how does a BPD/NPD respond to being cornered per se?  Unleash the wrath, for what that’s really worth, I suppose.

Thanks FF  for your continued support.
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2021, 12:04:22 AM »

worriedStepmom had some good insights.

I don't see selling the house and splitting proceeds as a negative.  Home is where you live, however that might change.  Besides, millions move every year.  In my view, the bigger questions are (1) whether neither parent can afford the house post-divorce or (2) whether you need a fresh start in another home without memories of the conflict.

As for the third vehicle, do any of the older children need reliable transportation?  To extend that into a general observation... While your spouse may be inclined to obstruct you getting half of marital assets (let court tell him the reality, no need to be overly-fair and bend over backwards to disadvantage yourself) perhaps you can phrase some of this as "for the kids".
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« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2021, 11:29:28 AM »

Some of the L's I consulted with claimed to have experience with high conflict divorces, but I learned along the way this is a continuum and many who believe they have had difficult people have not necessarily dealt with the extremes that many of us here are dealing with.

In my case, and another friend a few years ago was same - trying to remain amicable and avoid conflict in court - was a complete waste of time and money.  His advice to me early was 'just pick a lawyer you can stomach and have at it'.  I didnt listen, ALL the lawyers want to continue to reach settlement.  But it is not possible with someone that wants their day in court, or has completely unreasonable expectations, or just likes the drama.

In many cases (most), a decent lawyer will know what the general guidelines/boundaries are the court will rule with.  There are nuances, but not as many as most would like to believe.  I got as much out of early consultations with potential lawyers as I did from my lawyer once hired.  For whatever reason once you hire them they wont give much clarity on outcome (I suppose they do not want to risk suggesting what is likely, knowing nothing is 100%).  But even the conciliation judge said to me 'this is a relatively simple case and there are fairly narrow guidelines to rule under'.  Conciliation failed.  So until we get through trial I dont know if this is true - but three different lawyers and a conciliation judge all told me the same thing.

So I suggest you consult with a couple other L's.  Then just pick one and have it.  I tend to gravitate to those that tell me reality and are straightforward and practical in their advice and guidance.  If they wont give that in an initial consult, then its just a flag to me they might be prone to game playing and antics that will just drag it out. 

One of the books I read said the same.  You can spend $80k or $8k and end up with very close to the same outcome. Problem is, you dont control the process, and it only takes one to create conflict.  I wouldnt spend a lot of time trying to avoid it - just pick a L you can stomach and have at it.
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« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2021, 05:57:59 PM »

His key still works, I can just lock remotely. Things change both ways!

 Smiling (click to insert in post) Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

Have you seen this article about working with an assertive attorney?

Candidly? I would think long and hard about the aggressive ex-marine attorney. You don't need to find out the hard way if he himself is an HCP. From what little you have shared, there are some red flags ...

My attorney was assertive.

The things I grew to appreciate about her:

Capped how many clients she took on at any given time
Treated her staff well
Returned my calls within 24 hrs
Told me when she would be unavailable
Explained ways I could keep costs down
Had experience litigating and was effective at it
Treated me with respect
Genuinely cared about the kids.

Even so, she made mistakes. I made mistakes.

It took some time for me to learn how things worked and how to direct her. She had her strengths and expertise and I had my goals. We worked together on strategy and tactics and
figured out how to whack-a-mole the things that were most important to me.

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« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2021, 09:08:18 AM »

Smiling (click to insert in post) Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

Have you seen this article about working with an assertive attorney?

Candidly? I would think long and hard about the aggressive ex-marine attorney. You don't need to find out the hard way if he himself is an HCP. From what little you have shared, there are some red flags ...

That was my impression too. You don't want someone who is going to be blowing things up and riling the other side.

Unrelenting and steady might be what you need. Mine was a tough negotiator, but everyone loved him. An attorney who did some other work for me was brought in on a divorce case of his that went to trial, and she said that he made everyone in the courtroom fall in love with him and then they realized that he destroyed the other side while they were laughing and smiling at him. An online review compared him to Columbo.

In the end, we threatened court and got it signed. Mine was more about strategy than power. Perfect!
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« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2021, 04:52:51 PM »

worriedStepmom had some good insights.

I don't see selling the house and splitting proceeds as a negative.  Home is where you live, however that might change.  Besides, millions move every year.  In my view, the bigger questions are (1) whether neither parent can afford the house post-divorce or (2) whether you need a fresh start in another home without memories of the conflict.

Thanks ForeverDad.  One thing on the housing front I’m struggling with a lot is whether I can give my son a yard...and taking him away from friends. Kid 3 wants to go for the reasons you say — bad memories.

Wherever we do go there will be love and support and respect and acceptance. We get to build new memories. I still feel like I’d rather stay in the same town but it’s proximity to the city makes it pretty pricey so not sure I’ll be able to. Will be a matter of timing.

But a good nights sleep without fear what mood you know who is in. Knowing I won’t be belittled or shamed, nor will the kids (was always to a lessor degree). That is more important to me. Just peace.

Excerpt
As for the third vehicle, do any of the older children need reliable transportation?  To extend that into a general observation... While your spouse may be inclined to obstruct you getting half of marital assets (let court tell him the reality, no need to be overly-fair and bend over backwards to disadvantage yourself) perhaps you can phrase some of this as "for the kids".

Right now, yes, but very soon kid 1 is moving back to the city so won’t need it and kid 2 will buy a much smaller vehicle once they get a job.

BUT, for the kids is a good strategy so you’re point is well taken.

Thank you.
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« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2021, 05:03:02 PM »

Some of the L's I consulted with claimed to have experience with high conflict divorces, but I learned along the way this is a continuum and many who believe they have had difficult people have not necessarily dealt with the extremes that many of us here are dealing with.

This my fear/guess...I mean I don’t think most people have seen behavior like this. I don’t know how I got so broken down that my reaction was to try to make it better. Feels pretty pathetic but thankful I can see it clearly now.

Excerpt
In my case, and another friend a few years ago was same - trying to remain amicable and avoid conflict in court - was a complete waste of time and money.  His advice to me early was 'just pick a lawyer you can stomach and have at it'.  I didnt listen, ALL the lawyers want to continue to reach settlement.  But it is not possible with someone that wants their day in court, or has completely unreasonable expectations, or just likes the drama.

In many cases (most), a decent lawyer will know what the general guidelines/boundaries are the court will rule with.  There are nuances, but not as many as most would like to believe.  I got as much out of early consultations with potential lawyers as I did from my lawyer once hired.  For whatever reason once you hire them they wont give much clarity on outcome (I suppose they do not want to risk suggesting what is likely, knowing nothing is 100%).  But even the conciliation judge said to me 'this is a relatively simple case and there are fairly narrow guidelines to rule under'.  Conciliation failed.  So until we get through trial I dont know if this is true - but three different lawyers and a conciliation judge all told me the same thing.

So I suggest you consult with a couple other L's.  Then just pick one and have it.  I tend to gravitate to those that tell me reality and are straightforward and practical in their advice and guidance.  If they wont give that in an initial consult, then its just a flag to me they might be prone to game playing and antics that will just drag it out. 

Agree. I’m not interested in games. I want as much custody as I can get. I NEED spousal support and child support is a calculation. Spousal support is the wild card and the one that gives me ulcers. I don’t want to take him for everything but I can’t move to a less expensive state and I don’t make enough to survive — let alone anywhere near what he earns. Plus I’ve only made this higher salary for 9 months and I work a lot of hours. I’d love to find something less stressful but besides times being tough for getting a job I don’t trust whether he will pay. 

Excerpt
One of the books I read said the same.  You can spend $80k or $8k and end up with very close to the same outcome. Problem is, you dont control the process, and it only takes one to create conflict.  I wouldnt spend a lot of time trying to avoid it - just pick a L you can stomach and have at it.

Thank you. I think that’s probably true. It helps having others share perspectives that make sense to me, seems kinda obvious, but I’m still trying to get my reality sea legs.
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« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2021, 05:16:51 PM »

Smiling (click to insert in post) Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

Have you seen this article about working with an assertive attorney?

Candidly? I would think long and hard about the aggressive ex-marine attorney. You don't need to find out the hard way if he himself is an HCP. From what little you have shared, there are some red flags ...

The ex-wife client I don’t think he had anything untoward and just bad luck to be adjacent to the other case. The comment he posted on the lawyer site about “if you don’t want a handsome lawyer asking you out” gives me greater NPD pause.

But I’m teetering this way too. I’d rather just try to be reasonable and work it out quasi-amicably.  BUT when he decides he doesn’t want me to have a plant I just need someone who can manage the BS.

Excerpt
My attorney was assertive.

The things I grew to appreciate about her:

Capped how many clients she took on at any given time
Treated her staff well
Returned my calls within 24 hrs
Told me when she would be unavailable
Explained ways I could keep costs down
Had experience litigating and was effective at it
Treated me with respect
Genuinely cared about the kids.

Even so, she made mistakes. I made mistakes.

It took some time for me to learn how things worked and how to direct her. She had her strengths and expertise and I had my goals. We worked together on strategy and tactics and
figured out how to whack-a-mole the things that were most important to me.



That seems like a good fit and basically what I’m looking for. I just have fear that everyone around will be conned by him and/or don’t have the skills to strategize with BPD tricks.

Gotta have some trust. Thanks LNL!
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« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2021, 05:24:16 PM »

That was my impression too. You don't want someone who is going to be blowing things up and riling the other side.

Unrelenting and steady might be what you need. Mine was a tough negotiator, but everyone loved him. An attorney who did some other work for me was brought in on a divorce case of his that went to trial, and she said that he made everyone in the courtroom fall in love with him and then they realized that he destroyed the other side while they were laughing and smiling at him. An online review compared him to Columbo.

In the end, we threatened court and got it signed. Mine was more about strategy than power. Perfect!

I would love a Colombo type!  The first lawyer I felt comfortable with, she seemed reasonable and had some good strategies. She’s been practicing for close to 20 years if I recall.  I think she can see some game playing.

She’s less money — which is great on one hand but makes me wonder why and if that means somehow she’s not as good.

The things I like are that she seems super smart, seems to strategize and isn’t amped up from the get go.

I also noticed in her website blog she recommends a platform to use for text messages that makes it easier for the courts to accept them without paying a fortune to convert them to something readable or have someone put it in chronological order. Love the idea and am going to check out the platform but also feels like someone who’s seen some BS.

Thanks MeandThee
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2021, 04:05:29 PM »

A lawyer works for you, although some may give a different impression, that they know what to do and you need to sit back and let them take over... and pay the bills.

It's okay to ask questions of them.  An interesting one has been mentioned over the years and if a lawyer is going to work for you it's a valid one.  (Attorneys know that they won't get as a client every person walking in the door.)

Here's a good question:  "If you were facing a divorce from a very difficult, high conflict and obstructive spouse, which lawyers would you choose to be your lawyer?"  If some names are always mentioned, there's your sort list to choose from.
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« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2021, 10:13:42 PM »

I would love a Colombo type!  The first lawyer I felt comfortable with, she seemed reasonable and had some good strategies. She’s been practicing for close to 20 years if I recall.  I think she can see some game playing.

She’s less money — which is great on one hand but makes me wonder why and if that means somehow she’s not as good.

The things I like are that she seems super smart, seems to strategize and isn’t amped up from the get go.

Mine had 40+ years in divorce law, and his father was an appeals judge. Ironically my ex picked a celebrity attorney -- the one that hung out with the rich and famous and got himself quoted in the newspapers and CNN. And even though mine was very highly rated (U.S. News, Superlawyers, Avvo 10.0), he changed hundreds less per hour than the celebrity attorney. He also delegated a lot to an associate and a paralegal and served just as the "face" with my ex's attorney. He knew exactly how to work with that attorney and explained the moves ("ignore, he's just posturing," "he knows that's a crock, he'll drop it soon," "he's telling me too much, but I'll just keep listening"). Late in the case he got irritated and started writing off work on an ongoing basis (he was the managing partner).

Truly no regrets. I often think about him because he truly gave me my life back. He's retired now.

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« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2021, 11:22:51 AM »


Here's a good question:  "If you were facing a divorce from a very difficult, high conflict and obstructive spouse, which lawyers would you choose to be your lawyer?"  If some names are always mentioned, there's your sort list to choose from.

This is the type of information you will get from consultation.  Usually the first consultation is free (although I offered to pay in most cases). 

Also ask what the key points are that will be the focus - where is there flexibility and where is it 'cookbook'.  A lot of unnecessary drama and costs can be incurred on topics that are cookbook.

Sometimes you will get an idea of the opposing counsel style also.  Many times the lawyers in a given court system know each other, and know the in/outs of working with that person and where the spin up is likely to be.  And how to keep the emotions under control.  And whether that opposing counsel has experience with difficult clients (this can be useful to know, since they will be led along until they figure it out)

Sometimes the recommendations all converge to the same small number of attorneys.

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