When his tantrums are affecting my health

[WitzEndWife]

Hi everyone! My HwBPD is extremely anti-vax, but he's accepted, for the most part, that I get my shots when I feel it's necessary. Except now, when I told him I scheduled my Covid vaccine, he raged and charged at me, saying he was "putting his foot down" and that I was not to go get it. He said he would disable my car so that I couldn't get it. I told him that if he did that, there would be consequences that he would not like (I don't even know what my legal recourse would be for that, since his name is on the car, but maybe DV since he isn't allowing me to leave my house?).

At any rate, he backed down a bit after I separated myself from him, but he continues to send me screenshots of randos on the internet saying some version of, "vaccine, bad." I've told him that I know lots of people who have received the vaccine already and they have been fine. Both of my parents got it already. Of course, he counters that with, "They may seem fine now, but they may get cancer later on in life." So, basically, if anyone gets any disease later in life, it's because of the vaccine? * eye roll * He said he feels like I don't respect him or listen to him when I ignore his "advice." But there are really only two options here: get the vaccine or don't get the vaccine. And I know I'm going to get the vaccine.

I'm not getting the vaccine for another two weeks, so I'm going to have to live with his constant texts, his bringing it up, and ultimately, him trying to physically stop me from going. Any thoughts on what I can do or say in the meantime. He is nothing if not persistent. He will try to wear me down. It's his M.O.

[Notwendy]

I think it's going to be interesting to see what impact the vaccine is going to have on disordered relationships. I always consider that the "reason" given for the resistance to something isn't always the real reason. It's often an underlying fear that isn't spoken.

First, I think the decision to get the vaccine is up to the person and their health care providers and also a topic like politics that would not be appropriate for this board. However, I think the meaning of the vaccine in a relationship with a person with BPD could be an interesting concept to discuss.


First, it's the seeing you as a different person with boundaries- he doesn't want it, but the idea that you do makes you not an extension of him. That may cause fear.

You are asserting yourself and that causes fear.

Also, once vaccinated you might feel more comfortable socializing with other vaccinated people and then you might want to leave him. ( this isn't necessarily true but it might be a fear).

If you are vaccinated and he isn't - then you might feel comfortable venturing out, like eventually travelling. This is a loss of control on his part.

I wonder if his reaction is due to his truly being concerned for your health- or a reaction due to his fears- even if they are related.

Regardless, if you want to get the vaccine, you may need a back up plan- someone to drive you? (masks on). Have your parents take you?

Fear based discussions don't always make sense as they aren't logical if they are based on emotions.  IMHO any logical discussion such as your parents got it and they are fine won't be convincing because it isn't about that in the first place. Probably the best logical discussion would be with your health care proivider. Your standard response to your H's questioning you or sending you his own information would be "thank you, I will discuss it with my health care provider" and that's all you need to say.

[Cat Familiar]

Raged, and charged at you...put his foot down. This is bordering on domestic violence, and is certainly abuse, when he threatens to disable the car to prevent you from getting your shot.

I would suggest you make a phone call to the local DV shelter and ask for a suggestion as to your recourse should he try to intervene on the day you’ve scheduled for your vaccine.

As Notwendy mentioned, it’s pointless to enter into any discussion with him about it, since you’re going to get the vaccine anyway.

[I Am Redeemed]

I agree with Cat- if he's behaving this way now, I imagine it may be worse once you actually get it, or try to go to the appointment.

Notwendy makes good points about fear. I think the "not an extension of him" part is probably right on the nose. It seems he wants you to totally agree with him or he feels that you are completely against him.  Black and white thinking.

If he actually disables your car, that is DV. I would also add that anything that physically intimidates you is DV, as well, and I think it's definitely a good idea to contact a local DV resource center for guidance on staying safe in this situation.

[ThanksForPlaying]

I got my first Moderna dose today - feeling sore but not bad.

Of course pwBPD does not want to get the vaccine, also because of potential "cancer later in life". She reasons "if everyone else gets it then I should be fine" - extremely selfish. That was her same reasoning with mask wearing, and she basically contracted Covid for both of us way back in October by playing pool at a crowded bar with maskless strangers. 3 days later we both tested positive. We both thankfully had mild symptoms. She's also a hugger (of course) and would continue to masklessly hug my mom even after I told her how dangerous it was and how uncomfortable it made mom. But mom never got covid and is now fully vaccinated.

Anyway, I originally read your post because I'm having OTHER health issues - she hasn't been letting me sleep for several weeks now. I get up at 7am to work, workout, start my day. She sleeps all day until 3pm and then drinks until dinner time, then stays up raging and making noise until 4am. She literally says "you shouldn't be so mean to me if you wanna sleep - now you'll see how mean I really can be". Childish and annoying, but I'm running on 3 hours of sleep a night and it's starting to get to me.

I have some experience with her destroying my car - even crashing it once because I was trying to "leave her". She climbed in the driver's window as I was backing out of a parking space and hit the gas, swerving into other cars. I couldn't get insurance for several years because she wrecked my car three times in about two months. I wish now that I would have kept a better record of this history for DV purposes. Sometimes all the "little" things get ignored but when you look at the full history, it's much clearer what's going on.

I don't have any answers for you, but I understand. Hang in there!

[formflier]

Please stop threatening consequences...has it worked?  Seriously?

I got my second dose of moderna yesterday.  1st dose I felt nothing.  2nd dose I have a pretty sore arm and felt "off" last night.  I've definitely had worse reactions to flue vaccines in the past.

Back to the threats.  What if you took him at his word?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

This is tough stuff..

I tried to be deliberate to think about the "arc" of your relationship with your pwBPD over my first cup of coffee this morning.


Since it's my first cup...I'll be just as deliberate about asking others to agree or disagree with my recollection.

Here is my observation/recollection.  Several times over your history here DV concerns have been raised...but I don't think/recall there has ever been a super clear "I just got punched in the jaw" type of "clear situation"  (please don't "hear" me saying the other "lesser" stuff is ok)

So...there seems to be a fuzzy line that he (and you) is respecting for some reason.

Wasn't there something in public once (on a street) where others were noticing his behavior and concerned for you or perhaps rescued you (perhaps that the most serious I recall)

Scaring dogs...destroying your stuff/busting stuff in the house seems much more common than the threats of disabling your car...not allowing you to care for your health.

Anyway...

1. There is the common stuff that both of you have accepted in the relationship.

2.  The unspoken "dv lite" or "almost dv" line that both of you have been dancing around for a while.  Both of you seem to modify behavior for a time after these happen...eventually he storms up to the precipice again and peeks over...

3.  The million dollar question.  When will he cross it?  I don't think it is a question of "if".

Since there doesn't seem to be any sort of professional...sustained... intervention in the relationship, I think the relationship will continue..in large part...as it has for the last long while.

Sometimes it's not the answers that matters...but asking the hard questions.

Is it possible that several more years go by without "the line" being crossed?

Is it probable that several more years go by without "the line" being crossed?

Based on my answers to those questions...I "want to" do ?  

Based on my answers I "will do" ?

What am I going to do about the gap between "want to" and "will do"?

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I suppose if an entire household is in agreement with a decision, it's not a topic of contention but if not, then this could have an impact on how a couple socializes with other people. One person can make the decison to not mask or vaccinate and so take whatever chance there is with Covid. That won't have much of an impact on someone else if they live alone and don't come in contact with anyone else. But what if they do live with others and those people are not in agreement with this?


My H and I don't socialize much together. This isn't something I choose to do.  We just have different personalities and friends and while I wish we could do this, it would take a lot of effort to work that out. The pandemic has made this a non issue as nobody is socializing together. Most of my female friends and I plan to or have gotten the vaccine and now some of us are discussing getting together in small groups when everyone is vaccinated. But my H at the moment doesn't want to get it which would exclude him they also want to include husbands as maybe our friends won't want to get together with someone who isn't vaccinated. So while socializing together is something I wished we would do more of, this actually may take away any possibility of doing that.

BPD mom has been vaccinated and now I've been discussing a plan to visit her in a few months. My H can not come with me as that might pose a risk to her. Maybe at some point he might change his mind but just like I make my own choices, so does he. But if a person lives in a household with other people or wants to visit other people, their own choices don't only impact them.

We do things together as a family but socially, this has the potential to divide us further into separate social groups.

[Bertha88]

WitzEndWife,

I relate a lot to your posts.  Thus, I'm not (since I am living through it myself) the best person for objective advice.

I too wonder how to navigate this life, i.e., maintaining some level of self-respect and ownership of the power I actually possess in this lopsided, pathological marriage; while also trying to explore what loving an uBPDh looks like.  Also, the absolute insanity of accepting his version of the truth, esp. when it results in my self-esteem withering (e.g., "You never provide a meal... You like the chaos in this messy house... You can't relate to men b/c you never had a good relationship with your Dad..." etc.)

As far as the vaccine (I just had my first dose a few days ago), I like your tone of certainty.  I applaud you for knowing this is something you want for your own well-being.  Your conviction comes through in your post.  I'm so sorry for the s*** you have to put up with, such as the political texts (I can relate) and [worse] the threat to inhibit your access to your car.  Pretty jaw-dropping--yet, you are not alone in experiencing (tolerating?) this kind of bizarre, scary, controlling behavior.

Sounds like you are a person with a responsible job.  I too have a professional job.  Also sounds like, for reasons unknown, you don't "think enough of yourself."  Me too.  Else, why would we put up with these uBPDh's?

Recently I posted on something he did while I was out of town:  he gave away a piece of furniture he deemed as "junk" that I had plans to refinish, etc.  It may sound benign, but there is a pattern of him taking matters into his own hands doing such things, which is incredibly invalidating to me.  I call it "boundary bulldozing."

So, I offer you my support.  A good friend of mine, who is also in a long-term marriage and is usually pretty measured in her statements to me, said:  "You have some soul-searching about what you want your future to look like... You need to ask yourself all the reasons you stay..."  I know she's right.  I do not want to end my marriage, but I also don't want to lose this righteous anger (since the furniture incident, esp.), because it helps me "stake out" my identity and "feel" my power, if that makes any sense--and I NEED THAT.  Once I wither emotionally, I tend to lose my healthier instincts in the process.

Stay strong in your resolve to care for yourself!

[WitzEndWife]

I went to my therapist this week and told her about the whole situation. She thinks I need to go back to validation. The escalation of these things is clearly him feeling invalidated, and at this point, I always either ignore his insane claims or I refute them with sarcasm, which I guess makes him feel completely powerless and enraged. The aim of the validation is not to "work out" the relationship, but to disarm him, take away his power over me. He rages and intimidates BECAUSE it gets him heard and leads to him getting his way. The more I've given in to his rages, the more he's done it. She says I give my own power away to him, and the validation and speaking of my truth will allow me to feel better and more powerful. She says I need to change the dynamic of the relationship. Right now, it's me being led around by his whims, anticipating his emotions. No wonder I can't end things.

So, when he sends me his texts about someone getting a rare allergic reaction to a vaccine, I need to say, "That looks really scary. I can see why you'd be alarmed. Thank you for caring enough to send me this."

He desperately wants to be seen as smart and special. When I invalidate him, he goes to a very dark place. So, thanking him for sending the information and kind of going on my merry way without taking any of his argument bait, is going to help.

As for why he cares about this, I think it's complicated. I think, yes, he definitely sees me as an extension of him, but I think he's also afraid that if something happens to me, he'll have to take care of himself. He does NOT want to do that.

So far, the validation seems to be working. He has backed off the constant barrage of anti-vax texts. And, of course, that helps me relax a bit. I'm not sure what the gameplan will be for the day of the vaccine. I might reach out to my friend whose partner works at a DV shelter for advice. She is aware of the situation and has witnessed some of my H's verbal abuse firsthand.

[formflier]

I'm generally onboard with what I see from your T.

I would ask the following questions/consider some tweaks.

Anytime you can find less words and not box them in..

So..thanks for caring enough to send this...cut it down to "thanks for caring"

probably smart to cut it there and wait for a response...however I would discuss with T how you can "kick the can down the road".

"let's go out for brunch on (couple days in the future) and discuss a solution we can both say yes to."

then stop discussing it between now and then...if you have to validate.."it's important enough to give it my full attention, which I will be able to do during brunch"

You don't want to explain this to him, but you need to have big chunks of your life where you simply don't deal with his BPD...validate and kick down the road (yes to a not to distant destination..like brunch).

Important these "bpd discussions" where you are fully present for him are out in public...that limits his ability to go "nuclear" and if he does, you have easier exit/lots of witnesses.

Note:  I've got brunch schedule with my wife tomorrow to discuss how trans community is going to ruin our children...at least that is my understanding.


Several weeks ago there was a weird discussion at home, a couple weeks of silence, Monday morning was nuclear for a minute or two while I was waking up, I left the room and she shouted to herself for 10 minutes or so, then silence from then until now.

I will say that validation and avoiding invalidation are huge..probably the most important thing in my relationship improvement.  Boundaries are a close second.

From time to time I think boundaries are number 1 and invalidating/validation are 2.

There does need to be significant amount of time that you let them be them...and just detach...then come back around..stick your toe in the water and just press on...ignoring all the silly they just did.  I mean..will you ever agree on what they did and why..and the impact on you?  Right..so why discuss it..ever?

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I agree that the less words the better. Quick thank you for caring. I woudn't schedule any discussion over the vaccine issue. It's not going to accomplish anything. It's your choice to get it or not, and his choice too.

Likewise, FF, why would one even have such a discussion at brunch over the topic of transgender people? This is another topic like poltitics that people are going to feel how they feel about it. I can't see this going anywhere good.

[formflier]

In my case, it's a real issue.  I believe there is a solution.

They are starting to mix biology of kids at schools in the area with kids that identify as different biology and they apparently are using the same bathrooms and showers.

Working through the new policies and directives from the new administration is opaque at best.

My wife apparently just wants to pull our kids from school to "show them"...I would like my kids to continue to go to school and I would also like to request privacy for them so they use the bathroom with those with the same chromosomes as they are. 

It still boggles my mind that this is an issue I even have to deal with...but...undeniably it's here.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

It's unfortunate that accomodating one child's situation compromises another. I don't know of a solution that would fit everyone's needs besides private bathrooms.

[WitzEndWife]

I can't see myself actually having a discussion about anything political or triggering (like vaccines) with him without it blowing up into a fight. Reason being, I think that part of the purpose of him even bringing up these kinds of incendiary topics in the first place is TO create a conflict. I mean, he knows where I stand. Not sure exactly what he's trying to prove (like whether he is purposefully trying to create a scenario where he can insult me and get his jollies, or whether he's trying to get me to purposefully invalidate him). I can tell him I'll take his thoughts into consideration, but I won't sit down and have a talk about it because, no matter how validating I will try to be, he will spin himself up.

That said, I'll try to be brief in my communications to him. He's really smart, so he sniffs out when I'm trying something new with him and accuses me of being disingenuous. We'll see how that works.

I'm thinking of maybe spending the night with my friend that night, so I could just go straight from her house with no fanfare.

[formflier]

It's unfortunate that accomodating one child's situation compromises another. I don't know of a solution that would fit everyone's needs besides private bathrooms.

I don't either.

I suppose there is an option to have "bathroom" on a door an everyone just knows it's the wild west.

My goal (which I think is reasonable) is that we know as parents that if our child is as school that can go to the bathroom privately or with others than have the same chromosomes.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I can't see myself actually having a discussion about anything political or triggering (like vaccines) with him without it blowing up into a fight.

Here is the thing...you already have that discussion on his terms...right? 

This is about taking what you know will happen and shifting it to your terms and drawing a boundary around a large area of your life.

The reason to go to brunch in public is so some of the burden shifts to him and public expectations.

I'm not aware of any way you can remain in a relationship with him and NOT have communication with him about vaccines or triggering topics.  (if anyone has alternate ideas..I'd love to hear them)

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

Even people without BPD can't have discussions about politics unless they agree with each other already. I wouldn't touch that one.

It's your body, your choice. He doesn't decide if you get the vaccine or not. You don't decide if he does or not.

If it's a potentially triggering discussion on something you need to discuss, I would make it short, brief, use as little words as possible.

[Bertha88]

Hello WitzEndWife,

I wondered how things have gone since your vaccine.  I can relate to a lot of what you say.  I have an uBPDh (I think that's the correct abbreviation!) and it's been really crazy around here lately.

My situation is:  married 25 years, both with underlying identity issues (thus, the toxic attraction), kids nearly grown (though 2 still live with us, 19 & 22--thank GOD--I enjoy them), and I am finally learning to set boundaries.  Very slowly, with predictable backlash from uBPDh, but nonetheless, I've made SOME progress.

We are facing (his initiation) some major financial decisions:  home remodel, retirement plans (which involves my hard-earned 401K--finances were always supposed to be "ours," and I agreed to that, but he's a crazy, impulsive spender and I have a lot of resentment about that; and he wants a truck now--forget that he already owns 2 vehicles of his own--a classic car and a day-to-day but NICE new car, 3 snowmobiles, a motorcycle, and numerous other fancy toys like an espresso machine, top-o-the-line leafblower, etc.)  I rant.  I'm the opposite--"tight as the bark on a tree," I guess (ha!), which has served HIM well b/c I bring in a good income and health insurance (he earns 2x + what I do, though)...

Anyway, drinking resurrected recently after 17 years in AA (him) and some WEIRD stuff (forgetfulness) which led me to look up the relationship between early-onset dementia & BPD (and I found stuff, of course), and also hostile actions like throwing out my stuff under the auspices of getting ready for the remodel/decluttering, and I'm just too slow in getting to it for his taste.  Suffice it to say, those incidences (there have now been 3) make me livid and ready to walk out.  I called a storage place today and will be getting a unit of my own to protect items from him.

Would love to find out more how your life is going.  I feel like I'm betwixt & between--like I need to secure my things (storage unit; bank accounts) while still trying to coexist and validate him, etc.  It's such a crazy time.  The adult children also think he's losing it.

That's all, that's enough, for now.

P.S. If I post something and no one responds, does that mean it was a bad post or I'm a loser?

[ForeverDad]

I called a storage place today and will be getting a unit of my own to protect items from him... I feel like I'm betwixt & between--like I need to secure my things (storage unit; bank accounts) while still trying to coexist and validate him, etc.  It's such a crazy time.  The adult children also think he's losing it.

You are very smart to ponder and protect your future, whichever way it goes.  Don't feel guilted at all.  You have to deal with things as they are, not as you wish they'd be, sadly.

[Cat Familiar]

I agree with ForeverDad. Protecting your assets and personal property from a profligate spender is a priority.

He makes more money than you, so let him do some budgeting for future expenses.

[formflier]

That you agreed to joint finances in the past doesn't lock you in for life, especially if someone starts acting/spending differently.

Do have money that he has no access to?

Best,

FF

[Bertha88]

Thank you, ForeverDad, Cat Familiar, and formflier, for your responses.  I feel the support.  Right now I do NOT have a separate account.  We married with the expectation that all things would be joint, which is certainly an expectation of our faith community, a community that has largely failed me in terms of support.  I've been riding the crest of my anger over the dresser he gave away when I was out of town, and feeling like it's time for action--not, of course, to be vindictive, but because he is frighteningly impulsive and controlling, and I've had the epiphany that "going along to get along" isn't even serving HIM well (let alone me!).  As long as I'm angry/aware, I can stay in touch with the power I have... In the 15 years we've been married I've often been the perfect codependent partner, convincing myself that I'm "taking the high road" in avoiding conflict and allowing this or that because, after all, I'm so strong, God sees all, etc.--myriad rationalizations which have kept me stuck.  Having said that, I REALLY am not at all sure that divorce is the option I want to pursue--but at this point am willing to get my own accounts (scared, though!) and suggest some form of financial separation... b/c ultimately if he decides "that's it!"... I will be FINE, and I KNOW IT.

Wouldn't you know, ultimate irony, he's a financial planner?  Kind of like the old jokes about the fox in charge of the hen house!

He's very high-functioning (except at home, and is deteriorating before my eyes and those of our children), which makes it harder as well.

I could say so much more, but the themes seem to be:  1) time for action (but I am scared!); 2) asking myself, "What would you like to see?"  ... and of course, I want the pain to stop (for ALL of us, including HIM!)... and it would be so great if he'd "get better"/treatment/go back to AA/etc. --all things I cannot control... but I MIGHT settle for "yours is yours [go ahead and get that $45K truck and that $2K grill you want!] and mine is mine"... and trying some form of coexistence.  But he really seems to be fraying at the seams these days.  We are supposed to "talk" tonight.  He's offering me access to his computer to view our bank accounts (I want/need passwords!--but easy does it here!) so I can balance our checkbook... I feel like I need to proceed cautiously, lest I upset the apple cart and all hell breaks loose, like he goes mad and empties out accounts or just buys what he wants...  To give you an idea of what I am dealing with, he said the other day on this matter of purchases he wants but I won't agree to:  "Things will get worse... I don't do well when I'm constantly told 'no'."

A few years back I said no to a $12K motorcycle, determined to stand my ground.  I lived in absolute misery (silent treatment) for 2 weeks b/c I was the ogre who wouldn't give the kid his candy.  Then it resolved.  He brought it home without my permission, and we took 6 years to pay for it.  He's enjoyed it, but I can't forget the circumstances under which he acquired it.  Sadly, par for the course.

Wish me luck tonight.  I know he is suffering terribly.  It's evident in the drinking and his erratic behavior.  I feel doubtful that I can do anything except my best to understand and validate him while simultaneously making secret plans to move to safer ground, whatever that looks like.  Cheers.

[Bertha88]

Sorry, I should clarify that yes, I have a decent job and an income.  I am far from destitute.  So even though right now our accounts are joint, there is nothing to stop me, other than fear, from establishing my own account.  Then we would, of course, have to work out who pays for what...

But at least I'm not paying for a $45K truck!