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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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SlingShot

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Relationship status: nearly divorced
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« on: April 04, 2021, 07:52:25 PM »

Just found this board and wish I had found it 10 years ago.   Smiling (click to insert in post)

I'm nearly divorced from my ex who I just recently was told likely has bpd.  I'm reading Stop Walking On Eggshells and finding this to be the best description of my ex-wife that I've found.  So glad I have this information now!
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« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2021, 07:13:09 AM »


Welcome

I'm also glad you found us.  Reading SWOE and finding this website started a change...a change that has been massive in all my relationships (including the one with my "pwBPD"...person with BPD)

Can you tell us a little more about your goals/desires and that will help us point you in the right direction.

"almost divorced"..what does that mean? 

Best,

FF
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ForeverDad
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2021, 01:04:32 PM »

One of the best divorce handbooks is William Eddy's Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  Glad to hear you're almost done with the divorce but there will be nuggets and strategies for the future.  If you have children with your stbEx then there will also be a post-divorce life dealing with years of future parenting.  Best to get the best (or "least bad") ground rules set before or in the final decree.

While remaining anonymous here, could you share if you have kids, what general ages, and any particular issues you'd appreciate help with?  There's an astounding amount of collective wisdom accumulated here in the peer support.
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CoherentMoose
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« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2021, 05:48:41 PM »

Welcome.  Welcome new member (click to insert in post)
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SlingShot

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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: nearly divorced
Posts: 7


« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2021, 04:16:52 PM »

Thank you!
Well, first I should say that my bpd partner has never been diagnosed as bpd or npd or any other pd to my knowledge.  My personal therapist, after having worked with my ex and I as a couple initially for a few years, thinks that it's likely.  We were together for about 20 years, married with a young child, when my partner looked me straight in the eye and told me what I KNEW was a lie.  Things slowly unraveled from there and I found out that there were thousands of these lies, over decades, covering scores of infidelities, financial betrayals, social circle betrayals, etc.  I tried to keep it together for a long time (that's whole other story. . .), but we finally separated 8 years later and now we're in the final stages of divorce.
At this point the most troubling issues are surrounding the raising of our now teenage kid.  BPD parent is VERY bonded to the child, but sets almost no boundaries.  There was over a year when I didn't sleep under the same roof as my child and was stuck only "visiting" several days a week b/c the bpd parent wasn't that concerned and it was impossible to come to a workable situation.   That, among many other things, I think really damaged my relationship with my child, so the past year or so has been spent trying to get to 50% custody and repairing the trust.  It's been a very difficult road.
For myself, I still struggle with the aggressive emails and text messages from bpd ex, the fabricated crises, the sometimes bizarre interactions when we see each other to switch off custody. . . .  Been working on it for a long time, but I'd be lying if I said I don't still feel guilty, obligated, angry and generally grieving when I have to deal with bpd ex.
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ForeverDad
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2021, 09:25:04 PM »

It is unlikely you will ever convince your stbEx (soon to be Ex) to start and continue meaningful therapy.  What's left is to focus on yourself and your child.  You tried for 15-20 years to fulfill your sense of Obligation to the relationship and her blame shifting the Guilt on you.  (Around here that's call the disordered relationship's FOG... Fear, Obligation, Guilt.)

It is what it is.  The adult relationship with your Ex is over.  All that matters now is caring for yourself and rebuilding your relationship with your teenager.  Let Go and Move On from whatever emotions she tries to stir up in you to sabotage your parenting.

I too found that after the repeated allegations during the early parts of my divorce (we had a preschooler at that time) she continued to play games with the exchanges.  Sounds like yours is doing the same.  Courts may not step in to stop her from doing so.  What you need to do is set strong boundaries, or as much a possible, in the parenting schedule for post-divorce.

We understand that your Ex, like most people with BPD, feel required to sabotage and reject boundaries.  Trying to make them behave better is an arduous never-ending task, like the fabled Sisyphus tasked with forever pushing that boulder up that mountain only to have it always to roll down again.  So instead boundaries are for you.  Follow this Tool and Skills link and read the articles on practical Boundaries.

An overly simplified Boundaries example I can visualize with practical consequences is this:
"If you do or don't do ____ then I will do or not do ____."

If such a framework is incorporated into the final order, you may be able to avoid much of her conflict.  Sadly, not all.
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SlingShot

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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: nearly divorced
Posts: 7


« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2021, 09:50:01 PM »

Thank you for the workshop link -- wow, so much discussion up there.  Great.
And yes, a few years ago I started therapy on my own.  And then a couple years ago we tried to see a family therapist to provide some help with doing the best for our child -- BPD SO stormed out of the 2nd meeting 20 minutes into it, saying I was the one who needed help with parenting. . . . ok. . . . so been aspiring to parallel parenting ever since then.  Even that is difficult when STBEX's house is pretty much 'anything goes' with never a 'no' uttered.
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SlingShot

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Relationship status: nearly divorced
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« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2021, 11:04:15 AM »

I just got this email from my BPD stb ex and it has me kind of worked up.  I'm assuming that my child started not feeling well last night or early this morning and called my ex.  I just heard my ex on the phone with my child and the ex is barking all kinds of orders involving home remedies and various other instructions and she has my child's complete attention.  At the same time, my child has not even told me that she doesn't feel well despite me checking on her.  I'm not sure which aspect I'm more upset about:

"I’m dropping off stuff at your front door for kk around 7:30.
U may need to schedule her an appt at immediate care to have her urine and blood tested TODAY ASAP.
The uti may be back.
This time we MUST get an accurate diagnosis instead of just throwing an antibiotic at it.
It’s prob more post COVID inflammation.
The throat cleared (after many months) and now the heat is in the urinary bladder (again).
The herbs should help quickly clear the heat.   
I want her to get a really accurate  diagnosis this time and this will require blood and urine tests at doctor.
My final is over by 12:00 ish  - I can help if needed text me.
Keep me in loop please.
Thank u. "
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kells76
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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2021, 12:09:35 PM »

Interesting that she has one foot totally in the "alt medicine" camp: "heat in the bladder", herbs, etc, and one foot totally in the "conventional medicine" camp: take her to urgent care, get lab tests, etc.

Do you have contact info for your kid's primary care doctor?

Have you taken your kid's temperature? Also check color of urine.

I would start with: take temperature. Then, call pediatrician, report something like "Mom has concerns that Kid has UTI. Kid reports feeling fine and urine is light yellow to clear, temperature is 98.1 F. What would you recommend I do?"

You could consider responding to your ex in a pretty neutral way:

"Hi Ex;

Thanks for sharing your concerns. I agree we should make sure Kid is OK. I'll follow whatever Pediatrician recommends and will keep you in the loop as you asked.
Thanks for offering help; I have it all covered today.

Best;

SlingShot".

That gives you room to do what you think is best for Kid, with backup from professionals.

If you don't have contact info for pediatrician, consider making the same phone call to your local urgent care. Describe the situation and ask what they recommend.

When you follow professional's recommendations, that takes you out of your ex's targets.

...

DH's ex is weird in the same way. Used to send "tinctures" and "tonics" with the kids (which, I don't necessarily have an issue with), but would rarely take them to the dentist. SD15 got a 2nd degree burn a few years back because she let her jump over fireworks, and Mom didn't take SD15 for ANY medical care. But, Mom was 110% ready to refuse to send the kids over back when Covid started. Really, really inconsistent.
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kells76
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« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2021, 12:10:34 PM »

Does your kid get more positive attention from Mom when sick?
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SlingShot

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Relationship status: nearly divorced
Posts: 7


« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2021, 12:47:53 PM »

...

DH's ex is weird in the same way. Used to send "tinctures" and "tonics" with the kids (which, I don't necessarily have an issue with), but would rarely take them to the dentist. SD15 got a 2nd degree burn a few years back because she let her jump over fireworks, and Mom didn't take SD15 for ANY medical care. But, Mom was 110% ready to refuse to send the kids over back when Covid started. Really, really inconsistent.

Moving backwards, these needs for medical "tests" have become more frequent with ex over the past year or so.  Covid I'm sure not helping anxiety levels.  I'm not sure it's that the child gets MORE attention from ex with medical issues, but they get a very anxious, urgent, "crisis" response from ex.  Which I think, in some way, feels like love. (?)  I've dealt with many medical issues with the child over the years, but ex was certainly always the "first call" and I think valued being the "first call" greatly.  I have a sibling who is a pediatrician, so getting medical advice is generally very easy, and our primary pediatrician is just a few minutes away.  But I don't give her the same level of intensity as ex does. I approach it calmly.  Interestingly, when I've been trying to see how child feels today, she's consistently told me she's "fine."  Which I'm sure is partially due to embarrassment about the "condition" since it's in an intimate area and the kid is just into puberty.

re: the email I posted from today, I did reply as you suggested and here is the response :-) :

>"On Apr 16, 2021, Slingshot wrote:
>
>thanks for the info.  I’ll talk to her at her break and call doc if necessary.  thanks for the offer of >help.  I have it all covered today.

I spoke with her on facetime,  the pee test was neg, so tthat’s good.
She needs to just keep an eye on this until it fully resolves.
She’s gonna take the herbs I left, drink water, etc.
I’m headed up to SB afterwork and I”ll be back tomorrow night late.
Glad you have it handled.
Thanks"


The insistence on alternative medicine sometimes while insistence on going to Urgent Care sometimes.  Paranoia about vaccines with varying levels of commitment to the paranoia.  Interestingly, what you describe about medical care is how my ex's PARENTS were with ex. It all sounds horrifyingly familiar.
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kells76
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« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2021, 01:16:42 PM »

Excerpt
  I'm not sure it's that the child gets MORE attention from ex with medical issues, but they get a very anxious, urgent, "crisis" response from ex.  Which I think, in some way, feels like love. (?)

I think you're on to something. Plus, kids are wired to pick up on their parents' concerns -- it's a survival mechanism. So, your kid may have an inexplicable need to engage with Mom in a way that pleases Mom, when Mom is amped up. "Oh, Mom is anxious? I'd better tune in to that. Could be a tiger out there that she sees that might eat me." That kind of stuff is pretty primal. Where it gets perverse is (a) there ISN'T any issue, so the kid is amped up on anxiety for no reason, and/or (b), those subtle "threat/danger" messages by one parent are about the other parent and to the child. But... "It's only because Mom loves me that she would be anxious about threats to me" is the primal wiring. Kids don't have the sophistication to get that a parent... might be sending the wrong vibes.

Excerpt
I've dealt with many medical issues with the child over the years, but ex was certainly always the "first call" and I think valued being the "first call" greatly.

So familiar. DH's ex thrives on "being the expert", being "favored", having the kids choose her, etc. She has an impossible-to-fill need to be ON TOP, and will make sure others are BELOW in order to get that feeling. Ugh, even after they divorced, she stayed FB friends with DH's dad (whom she purports to hate and doesn't want the kids around), and made sure that SHE told US when DH's brother had medical issues.

Excerpt
thanks for the info.  I’ll talk to her at her break and call doc if necessary.  thanks for the offer of >help.  I have it all covered today.

Nice BIFF. Good job not giving her any choices. Just assert what you're doing.

Excerpt
I spoke with her on facetime,  the pee test was neg, so tthat’s good.
She needs to just keep an eye on this until it fully resolves.
She’s gonna take the herbs I left, drink water, etc.
I’m headed up to SB afterwork and I”ll be back tomorrow night late.
Glad you have it handled.
Thanks"

So that was your ex's response?

Interesting how she STILL is positioning herself as "the expert" (but someone who didn't know her might think it was a normal email). Yes, I'm familiar with the type. Well, if you can, let it roll off your back. She sounds like she always needs to have the last word?

It's just jaw dropping how much of a carbon copy she is to DH's kids' mom.

...

Excerpt
Interestingly, when I've been trying to see how child feels today, she's consistently told me she's "fine."  Which I'm sure is partially due to embarrassment about the "condition" since it's in an intimate area and the kid is just into puberty.

Yeah, that'll take some thoughtfulness on your part. Is your daughter 11-ish? 12-ish? DH and I got married when the kids were 7 & 5, and they're now 15 & almost 13, and it would've been very tough for him if he were single with the kids at these ages. He is great, but just notices things differently than me, so I'm not sure he would've picked up on the kids starting their periods. Of course Mom was no help -- wanted to stay "first call" and "the expert" and "well, they didn't feel comfortable telling you" type stonewalling.

Does your daughter have an aunt/older cousin/older friend/etc who she has a good relationship with?

Do you feel like you're set to have those talks with her and make sure she has supplies? You might be way past that point already -- just curious if you have good support and feel ready to launch with a teen daughter.
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mstnghu
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« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2021, 01:44:30 PM »

The conversation about BPDs' perspective toward health/medicine/etc. really got my interest here. My son is diagnosed through his primary care provider as having ADHD and is also very mildly on the autism spectrum. Most people spending any significant amount of time with him though can see that he's very smart and has a really charming and engaging personality. He's definitely high energy and easily distracted which obviously makes school difficult. His autistic side would be pretty much undetectable by anybody but a professional or somebody who has experience with autism. My point is, there are kids who are far less functioning on the autism spectrum or kids with ADHD and never get proper treatment and still end up being functioning members of society.

With that said, my wife has been obsessively trying to "fix" him for most of his life and actually uses the term "special needs" when referring to him. He's had in-home therapy, assessments by many non-medical "experts" outside of his primary care provider, MANY different types of nutritional supplements, thousands of dollars spent...the list goes on. It's never ending with her. She's even tried a method called chelation which is supposed to remove the mercury in his system that she says was caused by his childhood vaccines and caused his autism.

This seems to be something that comes up a lot with BPDs- manufacturing constant ailments, sicknesses, medical issues that need constant testing and doctor visits and consultations with "experts". There was a point where I actually considered that my wife could have munchausen by proxy. Since she and I are currently separated, I'm not at the house often enough to see if she's giving him any types of questionable supplements or treatments but hopefully she's not.

It's interesting to note that a lot of his "issues" are very prevalent when she's around and when she's not he's much more "normal-acting". He's definitely not an easy kid to raise, but I believe a lot of her hypochondriac tendencies cause him to behave differently when she's there. From my experience, BPDs will always manufacture drama and chaos and there will always be problems that need fixing. The cycle is never ending.
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SlingShot

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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: nearly divorced
Posts: 7


« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2021, 01:54:31 PM »

The conversation about BPDs' perspective toward health/medicine/etc. really got my interest here. My son is diagnosed through his primary care provider as having ADHD and is also very mildly on the autism spectrum. Most people spending any significant amount of time with him though can see that he's very smart and has a really charming and engaging personality. He's definitely high energy and easily distracted which obviously makes school difficult. His autistic side would be pretty much undetectable by anybody but a professional or somebody who has experience with autism. My point is, there are kids who are far less functioning on the autism spectrum or kids with ADHD and never get proper treatment and still end up being functioning members of society.

With that said, my wife has been obsessively trying to "fix" him for most of his life and actually uses the term "special needs" when referring to him. He's had in-home therapy, assessments by many non-medical "experts" outside of his primary care provider, MANY different types of nutritional supplements, thousands of dollars spent...the list goes on. It's never ending with her. She's even tried a method called chelation which is supposed to remove the mercury in his system that she says was caused by his childhood vaccines and caused his autism.

This seems to be something that comes up a lot with BPDs- manufacturing constant ailments, sicknesses, medical issues that need constant testing and doctor visits and consultations with "experts". There was a point where I actually considered that my wife could have munchausen by proxy. Since she and I are currently separated, I'm not at the house often enough to see if she's giving him any types of questionable supplements or treatments but hopefully she's not.

It's interesting to note that a lot of his "issues" are very prevalent when she's around and when she's not he's much more "normal-acting". He's definitely not an easy kid to raise, but I believe a lot of her hypochondriac tendencies cause him to behave differently when she's there. From my experience, BPDs will always manufacture drama and chaos and there will always be problems that need fixing. The cycle is never ending.

That makes a lot of sense in my experience.  It's like the need to be the "one who fixes" is more important than the needs of anyone who may or may not need to be fixed.   If there's not a problem, make or exaggerate one so that you can fix it.  It's taken me decades to understand this -- the chance of a child having that perspective is near zero.
On a more personal note, many many years ago, before kids, while ex was studying various "alternative" medicines, they brought me in for a consult with their mentor over some health issues I was having after having a pneumonia.  The discussion turned to sadness and heartbreak and I mentioned that a year or two earlier, ex had cheated on me and it broke my heart.  I continued seeing this mentor for a time as she treated me "holistically" for this "sadness/heartbreak."  AT THE SAME TIME, ex was having an affair with another person AND supervising my "recovery" with the mentor!
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SlingShot

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Relationship status: nearly divorced
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« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2021, 02:00:39 PM »

I think you're on to something. Plus, kids are wired to pick up on their parents' concerns -- it's a survival mechanism. So, your kid may have an inexplicable need to engage with Mom in a way that pleases Mom, when Mom is amped up. "Oh, Mom is anxious? I'd better tune in to that. Could be a tiger out there that she sees that might eat me." That kind of stuff is pretty primal. Where it gets perverse is (a) there ISN'T any issue, so the kid is amped up on anxiety for no reason, and/or (b), those subtle "threat/danger" messages by one parent are about the other parent and to the child. But... "It's only because Mom loves me that she would be anxious about threats to me" is the primal wiring. Kids don't have the sophistication to get that a parent... might be sending the wrong vibes.

So familiar. DH's ex thrives on "being the expert", being "favored", having the kids choose her, etc. She has an impossible-to-fill need to be ON TOP, and will make sure others are BELOW in order to get that feeling. Ugh, even after they divorced, she stayed FB friends with DH's dad (whom she purports to hate and doesn't want the kids around), and made sure that SHE told US when DH's brother had medical issues.

Nice BIFF. Good job not giving her any choices. Just assert what you're doing.

So that was your ex's response?

Interesting how she STILL is positioning herself as "the expert" (but someone who didn't know her might think it was a normal email). Yes, I'm familiar with the type. Well, if you can, let it roll off your back. She sounds like she always needs to have the last word?

It's just jaw dropping how much of a carbon copy she is to DH's kids' mom.

...

Yeah, that'll take some thoughtfulness on your part. Is your daughter 11-ish? 12-ish? DH and I got married when the kids were 7 & 5, and they're now 15 & almost 13, and it would've been very tough for him if he were single with the kids at these ages. He is great, but just notices things differently than me, so I'm not sure he would've picked up on the kids starting their periods. Of course Mom was no help -- wanted to stay "first call" and "the expert" and "well, they didn't feel comfortable telling you" type stonewalling.

Does your daughter have an aunt/older cousin/older friend/etc who she has a good relationship with?

Do you feel like you're set to have those talks with her and make sure she has supplies? You might be way past that point already -- just curious if you have good support and feel ready to launch with a teen daughter.

Yeah, we're a good deal past a talk about needing supplies.  Daughter is nearly 14, but that just makes her more like a woman and I can understand her feeling sensitive about discussing some of this stuff with me when it's not something we have a history of.  VERY thankful for the mom of her "boyfriend" who child idolizes but is also VERY strict and very mature and motherly compared to ex.  They connect female to female.

Your DH's ex sounds like the closest thing to my ex I've heard yet!  Being the expert, knowing the "right" person, knowing the "right" thing to say, being the one with the "inside info."  Meantime, can't support themselves.
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