Sex after 2 years

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

My world is upside-down.

It was about 2 years the last time we had sex, and the previous time was many months before that. There have always been statements about she leaving me, even before moving in together with her 2 kids. But about the last 2 years she stated we were no longer a couple, and not only sex but kisses or any romance, was out of the table. She's been saying we'll go as soon as I can find a place. I loved her, but I gradually stoped asking her to stay, because I lost hope and my energy. She had some traumas about sex before meeting me, and the fear surpased the desire, and she sweared not to have sex ever again, and wanted to be an asexual being. In our RS I tried to be as non threatening as possible.

Some weeks ago I told her I couldn't take it anymore, and that there was a deadline for this life we have, that she says she leaves but doesn't leave, and I don't know what I am for her, and for the kids. And I don't feel I get the respect and gratefulness of someone that has been dumped, but still pays the house for her and her kids. I got mostly complaints all the time.

So, I was looking for smaller flats, I told my family and my workmates, who didn't know why I was so depressed most of the time. And she started to get better! She got more meds and started to cut other meds. She started doing meditation and positive affirmations, and started talking with social services because she doesn't have a place to go. She talked about this new situation as if I had broken up with her, when she broke up with me 2 years ago. That made me sad. But she didn't blame me, and she was kinder and more respectful.

Our story is that we both think the other one doesn't love him/her, we put distance because we feel the other one wants us out of sight. I get depressed about it, and she gets angry and resentful. But I know I love her, and she says she loves me. I thought she meant "I love you like a brother, or an old friend".

We talked about that, we cried a lot. We also talked about the good things we had shared... And one day we kissed good night.  

There were some bad days, and anger... but we managed to make peace.

And a couple of days after being angry with me, she started looking at me funny, and I remembered that look. She told me how much she liked me, and how atractive I was to her. She had found a new energy and self esteem with her meditations and such, and she disconnected me from a bad memory she had identified me with. And I'm not sure how... We made out. The next day again, and the next. And soon she told me she wanted me bad.

I had promised her I wouldn't do anything sexual to her, unless she told me explicitly, and she wasn't half asleep, or under medication. Some of you might know how it feels to hear the next day that "you took advantage" of the person you love and wouldn't hurt. That you made her feel dirty and unworthy... When last night was very loving and good. So... I was very self concious and careful.

Finaly, we had sex, and she was happy. And again the next day. Then the week started and we don't have time without the kids, but we still kiss and we are affectionate to each other.

I'm very conflited. I guess I shouldn't be doing this. I shouldn't if I'm going to leave in a month. And I shouldn't stay because I had some love long overdue.

But I love her, and I didn't have so many chances of enjoying our love. I haven't been loved for such a long time. She neither (but I thought it was her choosing). And chances are this will not last.

Also, she's been positive and hopeful for the first time in years, even before she started being affectionate towards me. And I liked that. She's not like that all the time. The kids specially, make her angry, and they exhaust her patience. And then she's so beaten up that she doesn't feel like doing anything.

I can't enjoy it as if we were back together for good. I'm thinking all the time "should I be doing this?"

Two adults should sit and talk about it, right? But I think none of us wants to jinx it, because we have a history of screwing things up when we talk and misinterpret each other. One kid asked her, and she told him to not talk about it.

It doesn't feel like she's trying to trap me into staying more time with them, as life is as hard as ever. And our conflicts and dificulties wont be solved by us having sex. She is a straightforward person, and she says what she feels, even if it hurts anyone around. But she doesn't lie or hide things. She can't fake being happy after sex when she has felt so miserable about it.

I don't know what you can say about it. But you are the only people who could understand my conflict, and I needed to talk about it.

Thanks folks.

[JoeBPD81]

My world is upside-down.

It was about 2 years the last time we had sex, and the previous time was many months before that. There have always been statements about she leaving me, even before moving in together with her 2 kids. But about the last 2 years she stated we were no longer a couple, and not only sex but kisses or any romance, was out of the table. She's been saying we'll go as soon as I can find a place. I loved her, but I gradually stoped asking her to stay, because I lost hope and my energy. She had some traumas about sex before meeting me, and the fear surpased the desire, and she sweared not to have sex ever again, and wanted to be an asexual being. In our RS I tried to be as non threatening as possible.

Some weeks ago I told her I couldn't take it anymore, and that there was a deadline for this life we have, that she says she leaves but doesn't leave, and I don't know what I am for her, and for the kids. And I don't feel I get the respect and gratefulness of someone that has been dumped, but still pays the house for her and her kids. I got mostly complaints all the time.

So, I was looking for smaller flats, I told my family and my workmates, who didn't know why I was so depressed most of the time. And she started to get better! She got more meds and started to cut other meds. She started doing meditation and positive affirmations, and started talking with social services because she doesn't have a place to go. She talked about this new situation as if I had broken up with her, when she broke up with me 2 years ago. That made me sad. But she didn't blame me, and she was kinder and more respectful.

Our story is that we both think the other one doesn't love him/her, we put distance because we feel the other one wants us out of sight. I get depressed about it, and she gets angry and resentful. But I know I love her, and she says she loves me. I thought she meant "I love you like a brother, or an old friend".

We talked about that, we cried a lot. We also talked about the good things we had shared... And one day we kissed good night.  

There were some bad days, and anger... but we managed to make peace.

And a couple of days after being angry with me, she started looking at me funny, and I remembered that look. She told me how much she liked me, and how atractive I was to her. She had found a new energy and self esteem with her meditations and such, and she disconnected me from a bad memory she had identified me with. And I'm not sure how... We made out. The next day again, and the next. And soon she told me she wanted me bad.

I had promised her I wouldn't do anything sexual to her, unless she told me explicitly, and she wasn't half asleep, or under medication. Some of you might know how it feels to hear the next day that "you took advantage" of the person you love and wouldn't hurt. That you made her feel dirty and unworthy... When last night was very loving and good. So... I was very self concious and careful.

Finaly, we had sex, and she was happy. And again the next day. Then the week started and we don't have time without the kids, but we still kiss and we are affectionate to each other.

I'm very conflited. I guess I shouldn't be doing this. I shouldn't if I'm going to leave in a month. And I shouldn't stay because I had some love long overdue.

But I love her, and I didn't have so many chances of enjoying our love. I haven't been loved for such a long time. She neither (but I thought it was her choosing). And chances are this will not last.

Also, she's been positive and hopeful for the first time in years, even before she started being affectionate towards me. And I liked that. She's not like that all the time. The kids specially, make her angry, and they exhaust her patience. And then she's so beaten up that she doesn't feel like doing anything.

I can't enjoy it as if we were back together for good. I'm thinking all the time "should I be doing this?"

Two adults should sit and talk about it, right? But I think none of us wants to jinx it, because we have a history of screwing things up when we talk and misinterpret each other. One kid asked her, and she told him to not talk about it.

It doesn't feel like she's trying to trap me into staying more time with them, as life is as hard as ever. And our conflicts and dificulties wont be solved by us having sex. She is a straightforward person, and she says what she feels, even if it hurts anyone around. But she doesn't lie or hide things. She can't fake being happy after sex when she has felt so miserable about it.

I don't know what you can say about it. But you are the only people who could understand my conflict, and I needed to talk about it.

Thanks folks.

[CoherentMoose]

Sounds like a small step towards a new destination.  Actually, intimacy after such a long time is BIG step so take a moment to celebrate it!  It may be a long and perilous journey, so be prepared for some challenges, but people can and do change.  Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.  Keep your options open, but remain hopeful you are both on the same path to a happier life together.  Small steps, every day.  Good luck!  CoMo

[Notwendy]

I would say be cautiously optomistic.

2 years of estrangement can't be fixed immediately. One thing I noticed is the possible push -pull. Just when you took serious steps to leave, she also took steps to improve.

Right now the resurgence of intimacy is a sort of "honeymoon phase". But you want the change to be for the long run. What you don't want is to return to old patterns once the novelty of this is lessened.

I think it's possible for some people with BPD to pull it together when highly motivated and in addition, fear of abandonment is a motivator. I agree that I don't think she is trying to trick you. I think she's sincere, but also she's motivated at the moment by the actual shock of your plans to leave. I think she's also sincere that she wants to stay together.

Also you need to not play push pull games, but you need to be honest with yourself about your feelings too. There's hurt and sadness and probably resentment that need to resolve. It's very hard to get a true apology from someone with BPD IMHO, I think they would prefer to not go into the past and assume it's all good now. While this shoud not stop you from moving in a good direction, be aware that you need to process feelings too. You don't need the resolution from her. It might trigger too much shame. I think her efforts to change and this new behavior is the apology. But you may need to work with a T on your own feelings.

 It's not about pretending things are the same before the 2 years happened, it's about creating something new with the two of you that's better.

You have a part in the dysfunction. Now there's a chance for both of you to do some work. You might consider she's open to couples counseling. Both of you have individual work to do. She's not the only one who needs to be working on herself. Now there's a possibility of creating real change on both your parts for the better.

[ThanksForPlaying]

I'm happy for you - cautiously optimistic as others have said.  It's certainly not a BAD development.  I kept waiting for the unexpected twist in your post where it all goes to hell... and it didn't happen.  I like that!

It sounds like you have been waiting for a downturn also, so you understand what is likely to happen with BPD.  One of the many things we can do for ourselves is not let ourselves get too high or too low - self-regulation.  BPDs don't usually have that ability to self-soothe.

One of the biggest sources of conflict I have is that my uBPDgf is on an emotional rollercoaster - huge ups and downs.  And I have ups and downs also, but within a more 'standard' range.  Because of this, when she's super 'high' on life, I can see the chaos that will inevitably follow the manic, 'fun' period.  This makes me kind of a Debbie Downer sometimes, and she calls me a 'buzzkill'.  I'm trying to work on that - being able to enjoy the good moments while still bracing myself for the next downturn.  Working on letting myself get MORE excited than I do currently, but still understanding that there WILL be a downturn.

On the other hand, when she is depressed, my outlook on life is not that negative, so I'm trying to cheer her up.  Consequently, I'm ALWAYS tugging her back toward the 'middle', trying to mitigate the extremes.  That means there's ALWAYS tension and I'm ALWAYS trying to change her emotional state - it's exhausting for both of us.  I'm working on a way that I can sometimes be in-line with her emotionally, and maybe only try to intervene at the super-extremes.

Back to your situation - it sounds good - enjoy where you are on the rollercoaster right now.  Just be aware that you are most likely still on a rollercoaster.

[ForeverDad]

One thing I noticed is the possible push -pull. Just when you took serious steps to leave, she also took steps to improve.

Right now the resurgence of intimacy is a sort of "honeymoon phase". But you want the change to be for the long run. What you don't want is to return to old patterns once the novelty of this is lessened.

I'm reminded of a paperback I read years ago by someone who recovered from BPD, "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me".  While her pattern isn't that extreme, there is probably a push-pull dance here... you saying "let's separate our lives, this arms length relationship isn't working" and soon her inclination is to sweeten the pot.  Hope for the best but be alert for the worse, as in recycle.

Remember the saying, FOG = Fear, Obligation, Guilt.  She may be, even unconsciously, trying to rekindle your sense of Obligation to continue the status quo.

[JoeBPD81]

Wow! Thanks a lot for answering so fast , I felt there was nothing to say to me, but I got several balenced responses. 

My problem is myself... I certainly don't know what she wants or plans or thinks, but I also don't know what I want. I've been picturing myself on the day after they left me, for very very long.

They lived, the 3 of them, in a shared room with matresses on the floor, at her mother's house. This after they had to run away from an abusive husband (the father of the kids)They were treated badly at her mother's house. Fridays they would come to my flat, and the 4 of us would have a good time. The boys had a room for the 2 of them, decorated with kid's stuff. It wasn't perfect, but it was nice. Then we argued a lot on the phone, but in person things didn't escalate, and we didn't misinterpret each other as much. This went on for over a year.

Her mother didn't help her make a life, and she was very negative for all of them. I thought that was the reason weeks were so tough, and weekends were better. So I asked her to try living together. Her mother was thrilled to get rid of them. Even her grandmother called her, and told her to go live with me and stop being a burden to her mother. Her RS with mother and grandmother was a huge thing for her. She felt they kicked them out. Her mother promised to help finantially if she left (but then never did). As soon as we got a flat for the 4 of us, her mother bought a dog, to wich she is deadly alergic. The mother was out of town for the summer, with the new dog, and she and the kids were alone in her mother's house.

I was moving my stuff to the new flat, and she wasn't. She told me already then, that she didn't want to move with another man. And that this wasn't what she wanted, and she felt cornered by everyone in her life. So the hope, the joy of moving in together was replaced with me alone in the flat, in a neighborhood that was far from my job and I didn't know my way around. And then trying to cheer her up, and asking for a chance to make it work.

Before this she said she wanted to break up about once every 10-15 days. After moving in together, she kept the pattern. In the very begining, I'd say I really wanted this, and that I believed in us...And she would say she was still my girlfriend after the bad stage.

- Gradually she stopped saying that she wanted to be with me in any way. She'd say she was leaving, and I didn't know if I was gonna get home and find it empty or not. And she never told me when she had stopped thinking about leaving. My only clue was to find her there. If I got comfortable and acted like things were back to normal, after she showed some affection for some days, at the next bad day she would tell me "I was serious when I told you I wanted to leave, but you don't listen, and you act like nothing happens".

- Me, 1st I would beg, I would cry with her and told her I was in love and that she made me want to live, and that the thing I wanted in life was to be with them and form a family... But finding myself in the same spot 15 days later, I felt my actions weren't working. And I gradually changed to a more dispassionate "this (you leaving) is not what I want, I want to live with you, but I see you are unhappy, and you'll do what you need to do to be happy"... And later on I didn't say anything most of the time. For the last months I wanted them to go. And it broke my heart to surrender like that. I felt they 3 were fighting to beat me, and they won, like they had tried tu hurt me to a point that it was unthinkable to live with them.

The no-sex no-romance stuff hurt me, of course. But there were/are many other things. I felt I was their driver, a servant (even though she does most of the household stuff)... That I was only good to pay their house. But far from acting grateful to have a free place to stay. They made me feel that if they could have my money without me, they would be much happier. That sounds like I'm rich, but I barelly make enough to keep the rent (+car +phone/internet...) up to date. But I give everything I have to them. And I get rejection, even as a friend or roommate, I don't feel welcome at all.

So this resulted in my living in my room most of the time. And then she felt rejected and alone. If I came close, she would bark at me (push), if I left her alone, I got blamed for her loneliness.

I transitioned to trying to make her happy, to trying to not make her mad. And I found myself doing that as my only lead in life. I woke up thinking what would trigger her, I left work wondering what to say that wouldn't trigger anger, and I was affraid at my own house. Not affraid she would harm me, but affraid I didn't seem to do anything right.

Even when I saw the girl I fell in love with, the most that I could hope for was some peace. And yeah, she does appologize all the time. which I get it's rare in BPD. But she does it in a way that sounds like she's blaming me. You know?

Now she's not saying either that she wants to live with me. She's saying I make her horny, and it's a good sign for both of us because she's not that affraid of it, and she can't be wanting to die and wanting to have sex at the same time. So it's a movement towards life and happyness. She's not making promisses nor asking for anything.

But giving all that I told you, I don't even know myself what to make of it, concerning my feelings. I don't want sex, but I do like being close to her. And it beats fighting any day of the week. Also I want to support her changes for the better and encourage her to think positive and get a hold of her life. She hasn't found a job for longer than a month in 6 years.

It could work between us, but there's the kids. I'm not allowed to point out how difficult they are. The second I say anything, I'm the bad guy. So by not saying anything I witness constant abuse from s14 to s10 and from both of them to her. I drive them to school, and they won't get out of bed untill she is raging mad about them not moving at all, and they mad at her for insisting and not letting them sleep instead of going to school. Everyday, we start the day mad, cruelly, sadistically mad, on the kid's part; and desperatelly violently mad on her part. She has trouble breathing in the mornings, and she gets out of breath calling them, and asks them to please react, because she's suffocating. Everyday she starts very sweet with them, but they wont move untill she's coughing her lungs out, and screaming at them. And I have to say nothing, and act like a driver who knows his bussiness. This level of violence is only the 1st 20 minutes of the day, and it doesn't get better the rest of the day. And it doesn't get better as they age.

Then we talk, and she asks me to show more love and joy around the kids. After years of this. S14 acts like he's the Emperor and we should all serve him and leave him alone, while he won't even shower or change clothes (when it's the 1st thing we all do as soon as we get home since the Covid thing). I get a new series that we could all enjoy together, and he refuses, but then he watches the whole series alone (while we do homework, cook, clean, shop...), and spoils it for the rest of us. Teenagers, right? Wrong! He's been like that all his life. S10 is hyperactive, after 10 minutes with him, everyone is stressed. But he finds very funny to do the opposite of whatever he understands it's good, or whatever anyone asks of him. So he's creating conflict all the time, as passtime, without malice, but he does. And when people can't take it anymore, he gets very offended and angry. There's no one in his life that can deal with him without conflict. Only teachers that frigthen him are respected, but it builds up more anxiety for later. So you would cook somehting for him and he would spit it at the table, you would say something loving and he would answer "smell my A-H**" It takes no time from giving him something and he making you regret it.

It goes like this:

- (Everyday) I want to go to Six Flags, why don't we go to Six Flags... I love it, all my friends go...

We make time and money and buy the tickets... - Today we go to Six Flags!

- I'm staying, I hate that stupid place. You can't make me go, you're evil...

I swear I'm not exagerating.

So I don't have an aswer for that. I love them, but don't have a saying in their education, so I'm not part of the family. I listen to her complain about how they treat her, which is sick, and she gets it out of her system by that, and screaming at them. But I can't complain, even our whole life is trying to get them out of bed, out of the couch, out of the floor... And waiting, and being between them so they don't hurt each other. There's no window to show love. I try, of course.

She gets worse with stress, and I pay the consecuences. And after years of watching them being sadistic and cruel even when they see their mom in bed, very weak and ill. How they treat the person I love... It's really hard, guys. All my energy goes to not scream, and not turn violent. And I was descrived the most patient person in the world by my friends.

Anyway, I hope you get the picture.

Thanks a lot for your anwers.

[Notwendy]

Sounds like you want to get your own feelings sorted out. You can do that, regardless of what she wants at the moment.

I think one issue is that boundaries can get muddled. You are still two separate people- each with your own feelings.

[formflier]

So..there is an opportunity here.  She seems willing to take the relationship to a better place.

I would recommend you NOT go back to the old place...the old dynamic.

That's going to take some determination on your part.

As others have mentioned, you started to get serious about moving on and ...  poof...she got serious about keeping you around.

That's NOT a coincidence.

Where do you want to go with this relationship?

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

Do you have independent sources of information about her ex and her mother?  Just because she claims abusive ex and bad family doesn't make that the full actual truth.  People with BPD (pwBPD) typically have an "all or nothing" perception of the world and the people in it, all good or nothing good.  Either idolizing or blaming.  And you're far more likely to hear the 'bad' than the 'good'.

Look up the Karpman Drama Triangle... can you identify a victim, a persecutor and a rescuer?

[JoeBPD81]

I've seen enough with my own eyes to believe her, specially her mother. With her ex, I've seen police reports, and I spoke to the lawyer who represented her, I saw the evidence...

The problem is that when she speaks bad about me, I know enough about BPD that I see why she feels like that, and how it is true for her, even when it is 100% not true. Mostly she forgets her own part in the story.

She would tell me to close a window, and later think I closed the window on my own and find an explanation about how I did it because I don't care about her.

But there's abuse that's not open to interpretation. She loves her mother to pieces. And she speaks mostly good things about her ex to the kids. (In case one day he cares to see them).

The family... It's scary bad. She should write a series of novels. I don't know if all the stories are true, but they ring true with what I've seen.

One of the reasons for breaking up with me, she says, is that being a good person, she can't blame me, and I make her see it's her fault. So she believes maybe is was her fault in all her RSs. I make her feel like a monster. And she resents that a lot.

But she's been dealing with really bad people all her life, normal looks fake to her, too good to be real.

[JoeBPD81]

Hi guys,

today I'm very anxious. I'm working and she has a job interview. She asked me to not contact her, so she can be as calm as posible before the interview.

We haven't been intimate again. we've been closer than the last 2 years, but sad, and arguing some days. The kids show all the syntoms of a very bad adiction to a videogame, and it's their whole world, they are either playing or demanding it or being violent when they can't play. So our day to day is her begging them to do something or stop doing something, they either ignore her or insult her. If I can say something kind, I say it, if not, I stay away from this dynamic, because I become the punching bag as soon as I say something.

When the kids are at school, we talk about our past, by text. I'm hurt that her story is that they three are horrible and I can't stand them any more; and that she wanted to form a family with me, but I didn't. When what I couldn't stand is that she broke up with me a long time ago, and I've spent 2 years not knowing when they would go, or who I was (for them) in the meantime. I try to understand her perception, and what's true about it. But what I lived it's like it didn't happen at all.

I've read my 1st post here, from 2017, and it said: " ...sex is an old memory, and affection and intimacy are seldom. So I've thought that she didn't love me anymore, that she hated and blamed me for something, and everything on that book. Some days are very hard, and some days are OK, never easy.". This was after just half a year of living together. And then I had hope, and I wanted to do my best so we could be a family.

She said one day that even if she won the lottery, picturing life without me she can only picture a dark hole. Then 2 days later said that she thinks she would never see me again after the separation, the she couldn't take seeing me.

I'm sad because there's one thing she's right about. I can't say anything good about the kids. I've never seen kids like this. I've seen kids having tantrums, and then have good days. But these kids are in a constant tantrum. I feel compasion for them. But that's not a good thing about them. She sits with them and tells them a list of great things about them. It's not their fault they are how they are. And partly, it would be MY fault. But somehting is wrong with me because I can't say one single thing that it's honest. I praise whatever they do well, even the smallest thing, in the moment. But they mostly do nothing, or they do harm.

As a kid it made me very sad when adults praised me about something I wasn't proud myself. It felt like pitty or mocking. My parents always expected more, and my family was not the saying-I-Love-you type. So the positive reinforcement, even as I understand it must be good, it feels like theatre to me. Getting angry with the kids is also theatre, as I get sad, not angry.

So we talked about the kids yesterday, and it's clear it's a deal breaker. But it's also clear that they are not going to have a better life once the are homeless because of me. She says they love me and I'm their superhero, and I know they do, but I feel they love me as long as I'm giving them something. If I ask for help, or anything, the answer is always no. Not even a stranger has treated me as bad as they do. They like me, but they are both incapable of any empathy. And even if they absolutelly loved me, watching them abuse their mother, and each other, it's too much. We were all 4 sick with Covid (nothing severe) because none of them follow any of the guidelines, they refuse to wash their hands, they touch everything and everyone...

There has never been one day of peace. And if you add that I was told "we only live here because I haven't found another place yet". I haven't been able to form a bond with the kids. I'm always finding things to do with them or to watch with them on TV. They either say no, or S14 watch everything on his own, and then spoils it for the rest, and refuses to watch it again with us (or even let us watch them in peace). We have a ton of tv-shows that we started, and only he finished. Board games always end in a big fight. The only way to do it is to play with only one of them and let him win. We got to a point that we fear and have a lot of anxiety just thinking about proposing anything to them. SHE has the infinite motherly love to draw from, I don't.

Anyway, I needed to get it off my chest, I hope someone has something to say about it. Thanks.

[formflier]

So we talked about the kids yesterday, and it's clear it's a deal breaker. But it's also clear that they are not going to have a better life once the are homeless because of me. She says they love me and I'm their superhero, and I know they do, but I feel they love me as long as I'm giving them something. If I ask for help, or anything, the answer is always no.

This strikes me as 100% manipulative.

Can you expand on the "deal breaker" kids thing?

I do want to understand that...yet I'm going to be direct with you and say the kids have nothing to do with this.  Any time/effort you spend evaluating "reasons" that have anything at all that distracts from the dysfunction in the relationship between you and her is wasting your time.

Yes...there is likely lots of dysfunction in other places...deal with the closest...first.

 

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

You've been here for a few years, so I'll be a little more frank that with someone new here and long term behaviors in the family not yet clear.  This is a dysfunctional and unhealthy relationship.

While it is good that you tried to morph it into something better, it's obvious both the spousal and parenting aspects are still dysfunctional and have shown no improvement over the years.

She and her children are messes, unlikely any more effort you expend would change that.  Do you think this is the time to "Let Go and Move On" with your life?

An important question... Did you adopt her children?  That's seldom done, of course, but it would alter what I write next.

Legally these are probably not your children despite the years you've been their stepfather.  I don't expect you would be responsible for child support at all.

You've been married for about 4 years.  Spousal support may be a possibility during the divorce but afterward alimony is less likely for 4 years married.  Even if a settlement or order specified alimony, it typically is no more than half the length of the marriage, usually less.

It is vital you get your ducks in a row, legally speaking.  Planning to handle the "what-ifs" that may arise during the conflict and sabotage is vital.  That means prior consultations with local family law attorneys in advance.  The consultations and strategies are confidential and private matters.  You do NOT share that information with your spouse or the children.  If you do, then expect obstruction and sabotage.

Since custody probably won't be an issue, it would be mostly how to split marital assets and debts.  Therefore don't buy a new home with her name on a deed or other actions that would further complicate a divorce process.  I do consider it probable that she would drag out a divorce in order to get you to Gift her more than normal in a split.

[JoeBPD81]

@Formflier

The deal breaker thing is one thing I understand. They come in a package, I can't love her and don't even like the kids, even if they didn't live with her full time. The kids come first. They deserve to be loved and to be the number 1 priority.

Again, I can't control what I like, I can treat them as good as possible. I can be fair and supportive. I can do my best. In their defense, they accepted me from day one, they wanted me to be their dad. But they fought every step of the way from there. They fight her too.

For me, loving me and loving the kids are not opposite things. We are all on the same team. But there's a lot of disfunction in that envy drives most of their behavior, when not pure selfishness.

I'll expand more if you want to.

[JoeBPD81]

@ForeverDad

We are clearly dysfuctional, sadly.

On my part, I've been doing less and less. I run out of things that worked. I had less and less energy and/or hope. I don't know why I love her and why when she smiles it's like the person I love comes back from a long absence. I guess it's the co-dependence thing, I live for her aproval, more than anything. I forgot what I want.

I felt the only good thing I do with my life is to give them a place to live. And it also broke me because I felt I wasn't welcome in that home I was giving them.

The thing is, when I'm totally beaten, that's when I've seen some improvement in her. At first it hurt to think that she felt better because she was free of me, she didn't have to pretend to like me or to tolerate me. But with the improvement also came more affection towards me. More communication, a bit more trust... Where there was a "no way, I'm done", Now there's doubt. I know, I should know better.

I'm 43. I divorced before (from a different woman). I was unhappy, but it took me a long time to break things up, and I never forgave myself. We had no kids, and she wasn't helpless, nor sick. I thought she could be happier without me. I left without a claim on the house, the car, anything. And still I wanted to die for leaving. I don't break promises, and I don't hurt someone if I know I'm doing it.

So I can't picture my life after we go separate ways. I can only think about what would happen to them. It feels like closing my eyes, turning my back to their suffering and hope I get some will to live and move on afterwards. I can't picture my life with them either, with this constant violence. I'll get a positive thing the 1st day I live alone: the end of violence/conflict.

They won't. Even with the date aproaching, they don't have a plan B. S14 doesn't talk at all about anything remotelly serious. S10 wants me to stay, he barelly knows his biological father. SHE's asking "the State" for help and getting tips and long term plans. Her ex is loaded, and he's asking her to come back to his town, and offering help to start things there (he's not to be trusted at all, even if he means it right now, this time. He's betrayed her trust every single time). He would love to tell her "I told you so, you are useless, and you could never make it without me". Her mother is offering to rent a flat for her, the kids and her sister (because she already pays a flat for the sister), in exchange for taking care of this sister (40), and taking her off their mother's back. She is a very unstable coke adict. So not the best for the kids. The mother is also known for withdrawing the help she promised as soon as she feels like it.

How is it done? How can I think "it's not my problem" and live with myself?

We are not married, and I haven't adopted her kids. Their only income is child support from her ex. It's not enough to survive, but it's something. I never trusted her enough to marry her. There wasn't a month without her telling me we were done, since the beginning. I felt I was in for the whole deal since the start, commited as if we were married. But I didn't see she was capable of fullfilling the marriage vows. I think at least the day of your wedding you should be able to believe that your bride won't leave you in less that a month. Don't you?

So legally, I'm no one. A friend with some room in his house.

We've been living together for close to 5 years. But before that, there was a 18 month period when they spend all the weekends and hollidays at my place. So it feels longer than 5 years.

I've seen how she handled her previous divorce and custody battle, and she only fought for the kids. She got the minimum, money-wise, but she got full custody. He had money for good lawyers, and we didn't. I mean, even if she wasn't after the money, a good lawyer would have gotten more.

In our RS, She never took my money, I offered to pay some things, like the dentist for her, and she refused. She spends every cent on the kids, and none on her. we've lived on a monthly basis. I'm no where near to be able to buy a house. I won't starve in the middle of a month, but I don't have much to steal and she knows that.

She's been saying "you gave us more than enough" "you deserve to be free and happy" "I don't wanna hurt you anymore"...

Today I told her again how it was for me. That it wasn't that she wanted to form a family and now I'm kicking them out. But that she kicked me out of her life long ago, that she told me horrible definitive things... And that it's not that I don't stand her, but I don't stand her rejection and hate, and so on... I expected a huge fight after this. But she's been affectionate again after this talk.

So things are advancing toward a break up date, but there's been some improvement and some unexpected developements. Things are less clear than 2 months ago. But I'm less depressed than 2 months ago. So... I'm conflicted.

Thanks a lot for your responses, trully.
 

[formflier]

Look..it's obvious that you care about her and the children.

It's also obvious that there is MASSIVE amounts of dysfunction here than spans several relationships.

So...if you want to help the children and her...there are two pathways.

If you are going to stick around...you and she must have professional support being good parents. 

It doesn't sound like she is open to that, so I can't in good conscience suggest you stick around and continue to attempt to be a Father figure. 

If you attempted to stick around without professional guidance..I think it's more likely than not..that you will deepen...vice heal dysfunction.

Or at a minimum...act as a block to her hitting bottom and finally asking for help.

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

And she may never hit that bottom (and bounce into recovery) you've been hoping for.

      The Bridge

[JoeBPD81]

Thanks for your answers.

We talked yesterday.

Previously, I had asked my family to pray for her, because she had a job interview, and she was seeing a new doctor that week. (I said doctor, and it was psychiatrist).

Do you talk to your family about your partner's mental health? I keep it to the minimum, but she feels it's a betrayal at any level.

My mother texted her "what did the doctor tell you?" She had good intentions, but it unleashed chaos for me. SHE had been kind to me for a couple of days.

Then I had to go visit my family and I went alone, as I don't know if we are a family or not. But the kids love my nephews and got really sad for leaving them behind. And she got really disapointed in me. She didn't talk to me but wrote me a long e-mail. She must have gotten it our of her chest, because she was sweet afterwards.

Next morning she was crying at the breakfast table. S10 had been very rude to her. I aproached her and she told me to stay back.  I asked S10 to go give mom a hug to cheer her up.  And SHE god mad at me, because they kids are not supposed to see her crying. And it's not their job to cheer her up, but her job to cheer them. I'm also curious about this, about what do you think about it. As s son, I would like to help and comfort my mother if she was sad. At funerals and such, my mother would tell me "go hug your aunt...". I didn't mean anything bad by it.

Anyway, I was waiting for S14 to wake up, and when he did, I asked forgiveness for not taking them with me the day before. She didn't expect this. We got to talking and they didn't even asked for the tv, it was a good morning.

They went to have luch with her mother, it had been her Bday this week. I didn't go. Because last time I went and her mother acused her of making up our couple troubles to seek attention.

After a while they were home again. And she started to look at me with that look.

I know it's crazy to aproach her with fear of what she might be thinking and what she would say... And then she wants to kiss me. Feels like black or white. But I'm so relieved, and I miss her so much, that I kiss her, and leave the thinking for another time.

Later she came to my room and told me we were kissing but we weren't talking. But it was a good talk. She told me she was so sorry about the last years. And I asked her what had changed. She told me she had very few positive thoughts but she had been represing those, because she didn't feel worth it, or she felt she would let me down later, or that I wasn't interested... And the change was that she realized that she can't get better if she doesn't allow the good things to happen also. And that she knows she's been pushing me to the point I thought she didn't love me at all, but that she had been loving me all along. I told her how I've felt, and that this comes as a surprise, and I need time to digest it.  We kissed a bit more. And she told me we should make out for an hour everyday. That having good things and a bit of hope helps her deal with all the rest.

We've been texting today in a good way. She's told me she was convinced I was cheating on her several times, but she felt she didn't have the right to say anything because she wasn't giving me any... And she had pushed me so bad. I reasured her that even that she told me we weren't a couple and such, I lived with her and the kids, and it didn't even crossed my mind to be involved with someone else.

Anyway... i have to organize my thoughts, and decide where to go from here.

Thanks guys.

[formflier]

Next morning she was crying at the breakfast table. S10 had been very rude to her. I aproached her and she told me to stay back.  I asked S10 to go give mom a hug to cheer her up. 

 

Hey...I totally think you meant well here, yet I think this is an important place you can "look at your role".

When someone explicitly tells you they need space...I'm curious about you arrived at not giving her space by sending in someone else.

Best,

FF

[JoeBPD81]

Generally, she welcomes the kids affection, but feels intimidated by mine. As she started crying after S 10 was mean, I wanted to remind her, he loves her. It wasn't right away after she told me to give her space, it was some minutes later.

Some days she doesn't want anyone to touch her, but most days, it's just me. And they hug and kiss a lot. The kids also hug me a lot, it ask for hugs.

[formflier]

There seems to be a big "push" for you to somehow affect what she is doing, change her mood..make something better.."point out to her" good things that she is missing..etc etc.

How often do you catch yourself thinking "if she only realized X...then Y would likely follow"

Please don't focus intently on any one issue/interaction...look at the the totality of it.  Does what I'm suggesting ring true?

Best,

FF

[JoeBPD81]

That was my obsession before I knew about BPD.

Plenty of arguments that I thought If I explain myself precisely, she'll realize I'm not her enemy. She'll see this or that evidence that I didn't do what she thought I did... The arguments always went up never down, no matter what I said.

So the diagnosis at least told me to stop going down that path.

I might fall into the old trap now and then. But it doesn't sound so familiar.

It turns out that she was upset that day because she wrote me that long mail, and she didn't see my answer. So she thought until ten minutes ago, that I had nothing to say to her about it all. Now she told me my answer would have  made her happy..