You can go but you better not

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Looking for advice on how to end this relationship.  She's a master at blame shifting, gaslighting, manipulation.

 

So..recognize that and don't participate in those aspects of your relationship.  100% your choice..she doesn't get a "vote".

Such as..."we've had several long talks..."

She "voted" to have a long talk...and you "voted" to have a long talk and the long talks happened.  What got resolved?

So...next time she "votes' for a long talk...you "vote" for a short one or

"hey Babe...I've got a couple minutes here, help me understand what new information you have about this issue.."

or

"I'm curious about the new information you have?"

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Looking for advice on how to end this relationship.  She's a master at blame shifting, gaslighting, manipulation.

 

So..recognize that and don't participate in those aspects of your relationship.  100% your choice..she doesn't get a "vote".

Such as..."we've had several long talks..."

She "voted" to have a long talk...and you "voted" to have a long talk and the long talks happened.  What got resolved?

So...next time she "votes' for a long talk...you "vote" for a short one or

"hey Babe...I've got a couple minutes here, help me understand what new information you have about this issue.."

or

"I'm curious about the new information you have?"

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

Some have observed that the one party rule doesn't apply to abusive situations.  Something to judge for yourself?

Some have commented that recording may not be as useful in court as in being helpful in case the police get involved with a he-said vs she-said claims.

As for fears of having the book thrown at you, I've been here for some 15 years.  I recall only a few parents told by the court to stop recording... and that was to stop recording the children.  IMHO I wouldn't worry overmuch about recording, use appropriate caution and a judicious dose of common sense.

[Guts42]

After doing some research on local laws I think I'm all clear to record so long as it isn't of the kids intentionally.  From my understanding if I catch her screaming at the kids and they happen to be in the background that's okay.  It's not okay to specifically record the kids relating a story to me while I record- which I think is fair.

Currently I'm spun mentally.  Ever since the suicide threats she's been in "super-mom" mode.  Arts-n-crafts, story time, tea party, present planning, play date planning... She's also been very forward with affection.  It's such a 180 that it's unnerving and makes my skin crawl.

I'm terrified to resist her advances for fear of yet another outburst.

Another note on recording her, I think I have what would be considered good-cause.  She's been committed before (at first voluntarily but then out on a hold).  I feel like I'm betraying her even writing that... She still blames me for the whole thing.  In fact when she thought I was going to call the police she started screaming about how "locking her up is the biggest trauma" carries and that "it's because YOU didn't listen to me!". The only diagnosis she got was GAD but she refused to participate in anything, starved herself, and blamed me for her being there the entire time.  If I record her outburst this it might be helpful for the professionals.

I also like the idea of having it for me to reflect on in moments like this - where I question myself!

[Notwendy]

Well you beat me to it as I was going to mention another way to "influence" is to be super nice, loving, and now here you are.

I guess it's up to you to decide if it's sincere or manipulation. As to manipulation, that has a sinister tone to it but it's really about doing what works to get what one wants. And for someone with BPD, the motivation may be to ease their own pain. They may not be thinking of how it affects you, so it may not feel to them like they are manipulating you.

People use the tools they have in their interactions.

You will know if it's sincere or manipulation by the way YOU feel. Pay attention to how you are feeling. Sometimes when my BPD mother is being nice to me, I feel really icky. I get that skin crawl feeling you described. Trust your gut with this. You have seen this before.

I was visiting my mother recently and the neighbors came over with their children. I could see the transformation into "super grandma"- she was just wonderful to them. Grandma of the year. This is NOT the mother I know her as. As soon as they left, she was back to herself.

[Guts42]

Hi NotWendy!

I am constantly amazed at how similar our stories are!

I don't talk to my mother anymore.  She tried to guilt/manipulate me into putting my children into the same room as a known pedophile all because she wanted to show them off to her sister.  That was it for me!  The fallout from that was colossal - no one on her side of the family will talk with me... there's supposedly some inheritance that she gets now that I've been excommunicated...but that's a tale for another day!

Like you said, it may not be intentional manipulation.  I don't think it is but my radar is telling me this isn't right.  I've absolutely been here before.  This is what's worked for her in the past so she's using it again.  Her frustration and fear is understandable as these tools don't seem to be working as well.

She's made a few subtle comments though and had a few minor "snaps" at me and the kids since.  Nothing major just small reminders that the surface may look calm but under water the current is as strong as ever!

[Notwendy]

Setting boundaries with my mother also caused a fallout with my parents. As they approached adolescence, she began to enlist them as her emotional caretakers. I didn't leave her alone with them when they were small- but small children need constant supervision anyway. As adolescents, she was beginning to take them off with her in another room, triangulate them against me, confide in them TMI. I also got into conflict with her over my father who was ill.

Her family didn't speak to me for a long time. I didn't stop contact with her though, as she is elderly and on her own. I have also learned about BPD due to the conflicts and my interactions with her are not as difficult for me thankfully. I think as you learn more, you will be less emotionally reactive to the drama, both at home and if you every are in contact with your mother.

[Guts42]

You're right- as my mindset shifts from thinking I'm dealing with someone just being controlling and possessive and towards there's a clinical disorder going on here the easier it is to not take it personally and feel so hurt by it.  The behavior is not excused but a little knowledge has gone a long way towards shaping my approach/responses.

I don't know if I'll ever speak to my mother again.  She's remarried and has spun some magnificent tale of what an awful spiteful child I was growing up and into my adult life.  I've started talking to my brother again which has been great!  He used to be an unwitting informant for her but he's out from under her thumb.

Starting to let myself get excited about the trip.  There are two things I could really use but I'm hesitant to purchase anything!  In part because I'd hate to purchase something and not go but also because things seem calm now and I don't want to rock the boat.
Is that giving into her behavior?

[Notwendy]

I think if my mother were younger and remarried, she'd probably cut me off.

There are two things I could really use but I'm hesitant to purchase anything!  In part because I'd hate to purchase something and not go but also because things seem calm now and I don't want to rock the boat.
Is that giving into her behavior?

 Changing our part in the dynamics is a work in progress. I think it's more sustainable to take it one step at a time. You already have the trip drama to hold up your boundary with, and that alone is a challenge. Doing too much might overextend your emotional capacity due to the reaction.

In co-dependency work, much was redirected to looking at myself, my feelings, and what I could deal with.

" I won't buy something I want because she might get mad" is being codependent.

"I won't buy something I want right now because I really want to go on this trip and that's about all I can handle right now, however I will plan to buy it later" is self care and not being co-dependent.

It's about your thinking about the choices.

In the first one, you are acting in fear, feeling like a victim " I can't do this because she will be mad"

In the second one you are owning your choice. " I won't do this now as I feel I have enough to deal with but I will plan to do it later".

[Guts42]

Thanks!  That's where my head is at:
"I'm at my emotional limit."
Between the excitement about seeing my friends and all the drama about the trip (and anticipated trials leading up to/after take off) adding the stress of purchasing two things that would be nice (but not necessary) just isn't worth it.  Yes, I'm worried it would set her off but it's more that I'm so drained it isn't worth the energy right now.
So, it's little bit of both but I'm also giving myself permission to be there!  Like you said the trip is a BIG deal and that's what needs my attention.

[formflier]

OK...my curiosity has spiked here.

What two things?

Does your wife control/approve everything you buy?  Or does she just "comment" on things she doesn't approve of?

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

Starting to let myself get excited about the trip.  There are two things I could really use but I'm hesitant to purchase anything!  In part because I'd hate to purchase something and not go but also because things seem calm now and I don't want to rock the boat.
Is that giving into her behavior?

Like NotWendy, this paragraph caught my attention.  While it may be your practical, cautious side, it may also be you timidly setting yourself up so any pressure to make you cancel your trip will make it easier to cancel without financial pain.

"I'm sorry, honey, if I cancel now then the money I paid for the flight, cabin reservations and excursions is totally lost and all because of some mild or intangible matters?"  Ack, that might be JADEing and doesn't work well by itself to counter emotional manipulation, but you get the idea.  Maybe SET... Support, Empathy, Truth.

How determined are you to go?  (Unless the house is on fire...)  You already have an aunt and perhaps others who can hover around the kids.  After all, it's only four days.  For example, imagine if you had the flu and stayed in bed for four days, would the family fall apart?  It's all in the perspective.

[Notwendy]

Money and spending issues are common with BPD relationships. It's also a big issue to unravel. I'm curious too but also think maybe one big issue at a time is enough. Yes, it need to be unraveled but taking on two changes at once might be overwhelming for all involved.

I sometimes decide to "go with the flow" when I feel I don't have the reserves or interest to resist it. It's more about "picking the battle". Sad that it is a conflict to begin with, but it is what it is.

Change is sometimes two steps forward, one step back. But keeping at it will lead to change.

All focus on going on the trip is probably the best path for now. If the purchases of other things can wait, I'd wait on that.

[Guts42]

FF - new hydration back pack and some hiking boots.  New boots would be nice but not a necessity.  My friend said I can borrow a camelpak.

We just had a great chat with the kids' therapists and they told my W me going would be great for the kids.  One even said to me (with my W in the room) "you can't let their tears stop you from going.  At this point you have to go so they can see it'll be okay."

After that my uBPD's narrative has shifted to "but what if the kids' emotions are too big?  What if they're not okay- more than just 'normal' tears?"

[kells76]

"but what if the kids' emotions are too big?  What if they're not okay- more than just 'normal' tears?"

If you think you need to engage with that, then perhaps:

"I'm so glad we have the kids' counselors as resources!"

and then something where you're not rescuing:

"I'm sure you'll know if it's the right time to call them"

and/or

"I have confidence you'll get their feedback if it's more than normal tears"

etc.

[Couper]

After that my uBPD's narrative has shifted to "but what if the kids' emotions are too big?  What if they're not okay- more than just 'normal' tears?"

My take on that is it's another moment-of-truth thing -- she's not talking about the kids... she's talking about herself.

[formflier]

I'm curious too but also think maybe one big issue at a time is enough.


Change is sometimes two steps forward, one step back. But keeping at it will lead to change.

All focus on going on the trip is probably the best path for now. If the purchases of other things can wait, I'd wait on that.

That's for taking care of my curiosity.  You have the water thing handled by borrowing and should the existing footwear fall apart on you...I'm sure you can grab a replacement at a local store.

Nothing in what you said raised red flags for me and I'm 100% onboard with keeping focus on the issue at hand.

I also want to encourage you that "holding a boundary" may result in a big "nothing burger" from your wife.  As in you go on the trip and she kinda ignores the entire thing and even acts like it was a great idea/her idea later on/after. 

That's kinda what happened with my first boundary/extinction burst.  Lots of crazy and then... "poof"...she didn't care.

You've got this...

Best,

FF

[Guts42]

Thanks!

Strangely... after holding firm (well... just not giving in) during the post-kid-therapists talk she's been in a fantastic mood!

She's asserted for about a year or so now that her issue isn't really anxiety or anything but PMDD mixed with ADHD.  I don't know what all to make of it... but she says her "hormone surge" is over and she's feeling okay again (even great!).  She actually took the kids to see a movie and is okay with her and the kids having dinner at a friend's house tomorrow if a playdate runs long...?

I have been here before... where everything seems suddenly normal.
Very glad I have this community and forum here so I can reflect because right now I feel like I might be the 'crazy' one.

So two questions then:
1) Anyone else with a uBPD/BPD female partner notice behavioral changes depending on cycle status?
2) Is it possible that this new "happy" behavior is part of the program?  After me almost calling the police/crisis hotline/mother and now validation for the trip from the kids' therapists... is it likely she's going into "see, it's nothing!  I knew it all along.. YOU'RE the one who made a big deal about it!"

BTW another bonus point of not buying new stuff - less to pack!

[Ozzie101]

Oh, how I know that “am I crazy?” feeling! You’re not alone.

In my uBPDH’s case, he tends to have rages. Once he does, he’s often very cheerful or, sometimes, conciliatory. Regardless, I’m not as quick to recover. When he goes a long time without an episode, I start to wonder if I was imagining things or blowing things out of proportion. Listening to recordings or rereading journal entries helps ground me.

It’s quite possible she’s going into a “it’s nothing!” phase. Time will tell. With my H, I don’t know if it’s conscious gaslighting/manipulation or just that he’s feeling better so, therefore, reality is different. I just know that while these “happier” times can be a relief, in a way, they can also be very difficult. It’s almost like being in a room with a dog that kept snarling at you and biting you that suddenly acts friendly and wants you to pet it.

[formflier]

Yes...it's "part of the program", although it's unlikely she has "thought it through".

It's more her moods shift and she grabs a tool to use..vice thinks about it.

Or she realizes X isn't working...so she grabs another tool.

Best,

FF

[Guts42]

FF - nail on the head as usual!

And we're back to me being awful again

We were syncing our planners and she "realized" how close the trip is and I could see her face twist into "the look.". My son was upstairs and I didn't want him to hear any of it so I left the room to get him back downstairs.  I'll admit I didn't say a word to my W.  It felt like we were heading right back into fight mode and anything I say would just make it worse.  Looking back I should have said something...

So now we're fighting... Or rather she's furious because she's "never heard" and is "the least important person in the house."
I explained why I left the room and apologized and acknowledged I should have at least said something to acknowledge I saw she was upset... But it's "too late."

Another 3 hour lecture of how awful I am.  Everything I said was skillfully returned as my fault or ate least not her's.

A few standouts though...
"if I ask you not to go and you go then you won't have a family to come home to.  I won't ask that but I'm just saying..."
"It's like this trip is more important than me!  You're basically willing to throw out whole relationship out so you can go!"
"I don't know if things would be better if you stayed, but I know they'd be easier.  The kids would be happy Dad's home."
"I also think the therapists is wrong- you staying wouldn't be detrimental.  I don't think it matters."
"So you know what, go on your trip.  Go have fun and we'll just see how things are when you get back."
"Everyone will be fine except me because I'm the least important person in this family"

That feels like a threat?

[formflier]

So...one the one hand "one thing at a time" seems wise...on the other hand...a "three hour anything" with a pwBPD is no good.

I also don't think apologizing for simply leaving the room and coming back is appropriate/helpful/healthy.

In fact..use that to your advantage..

"oh hey babe...my mind is a million miles away, this issue seems important.  Let's push pause and discuss it over brunch tomorrow..after I've woken up and had coffee."

or...

"Oh hey..what new information do you have on this issue?"  if she wants to rehash...decline and go for a walk.  Only deal with "new".

There are a million ways to do this...I can't imagine sitting and "discussing" the trip for 30 minutes...let alone 3 hours is productive.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Guts, FF is so right about the 3-hour “discussions.” This is something I regularly deal with and that, nearly three years after coming to this site, I still struggle with. When you love someone and they’re in pain, it’s SOO difficult to walk away sometimes. I’m still trying to find what works for me. Baby steps. But extricating yourself and not participating are so important. She won’t like it. If she’s like my uBPDH, that’s a big part of how she copes — dumping her emotions onto you. But it’s a pattern to break.

Anyway, on her threats, it sounds to me (I could be wrong) that she’s doing the emotional equivalent of throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks. Maybe not even consciously. She’s just trying every possible tactic looking for the magic thing that will get you to do what she wants. Which makes it so important that you hold firm. Think of it (again, not trying to infantalize anyone) like a small child who wants something. Mommy says no. The child will try all sorts of things: tantrum, throwing things, threats (“I’ll run away!” “I won’t love you anymore!”), even guilt and other forms of manipulation (“Daddy would get it for me”). What should the parent do?

My H makes threats, too, which I just ignore because I know he’s not actually going to do the things he says. Our situation is a bit different, though, as we don’t have children together. How did you respond to her threats?

[ForeverDad]

It's all about her, her perceptions, her feelings, her whatever.  Sure, she throws in how the kids will be so hurt but really it's about her.

Have you tried deflecting some of this pushback by giving her the idea you all can take a weekend trip somewhere, camping, hiking, a theme park, etc?  Maybe planning subsequent excursions.  Of course she will see it as "you can never make up for what you're doing now" but at least it's you offering some various positives for the summer.  As in, this one trip isn't all that is done in the upcoming months.

[formflier]

Deflecting and distracting are kissing cousins.

Might also toss in something sooner.

"Oh babe...I'm tapped out on discussing this trip, however the farmers market tomorrow looks like fun...want to come together on an outing for that?"

See...you haven't really given a hard no...yet still communicate you are done on one issue...and are holding open the door for something fun.  She gets to choose which door to walk through.

Best,

FF

[Guts42]

ForeverDad, it's funny... when I first started planning this trip we were originally thinking a weekend in early Fall.  That same day my wife booked a family getaway at some water park resort for that weekend.

I've offered and encouraged her to have a girls weekend away for years!  She just says things like "I can't leave" or "I don't get to."

[Notwendy]

One principle of all behaviors is that there is a payoff and a cost. As long as the payoff ( benefit) outweighs the cost, the behavior will continue.

This is true even for behaviors that have a high cost, such as addiction. The high and dependence drives the addiction to the detriment of the person doing it.

There is a payoff to victim perspective- and that is, the absence of being held accountable for behaviors. IMHO the driving force for this is the pain of feeling shame. If a pwBPD has a poor sense of self, shame feels like self destruction. The shame would be unbearable. Taking Victim perspective is not necessarily a conscious thing- it's a protective defense.

Nothing you can do will change this kind of thinking. In the Triangle, you are either the Rescuer- relieving her feelings, doing what she wants/needs, or you become the Persecutor. Since the feelings are within her, the effects of Rescuer are temporary. One can relieve the problem in the moment, but her feelings are not under your control.

One thing that makes this kind of thinking difficult is that it makes reciprocity impossible. Even in friendships, there's an unspoken trade off and shared things. You know if you do your buddy a favor, they would do one for you if you asked. You may cover for your coworker on one day when they need to be off. They will also be willing to cover for you. Yet, Victim perspective seems to be a debt one can not ever pay off- yet we keep trying because we want to reach balance. But we may not be able to.

So what does one do? I think to manage this, we have to be very certain of our own ethics and values. If you want to do something nice for her, do it because you choose to, because you think it's the right thing to do. If she asks you to do something, use your own measure of what is good and what isn't good- and not with intent to fix or change her. Do things that you are willing to do, but saying "yes" when you really mean "no" repeatedly will lead to resentment on your part. Acting according to our ethics and values is important for our own self esteem.

Offer to send her on a girls' weekend trip- not to even the score or to change her feelings, but because it's a nice thing to do. Then it's up to her- she can go, or not.

Staying focused on our on values is a boundary. Someone can accuse you of anything but you have to have a hold on what is true and what isn't true about you. We can and should include ourselves in this boundary. We don't have to accept abusive behavior or allow someone else to harm us. Consider that if we do enable abusive behavior, we are allowing the other person to be abusive- and that isn't good for them.

[Guts42]

I very nearly gave in.
I think she's got the kids so wrapped up in her anxiety that they can't tell how they feel from how she feels.  A few nights ago the kids expressed some big anxiaties and fears about me going.
I spent the next 18 hours trying to come to terms with not going.  My wife ate it up and was (disturbingly) sweet and caring.

I almost gave in.

That evening while I was working she burst into the home office and started screaming/crying "you have to go!  If you don't go that'll be the end of us because you'll resent me forever!"  She then darted back into our room.  I made the mistake of following.

Before I could even sit down her tone switched to white hot anger.
"You don't give a sh@t about me!  I was hurt for three days because of YOU!  And what did you do?  Nothing!  Meanwhile today you're hurt and I can't stand it!  It's because I love you more than you love me!  Just admit it!"
This was during the time I was very very close to canceling my trip.
I started to cave.  I started to convince her why I shouldn't go.  Then I saw "the face."  She was still getting angrier and angrier.
That did the trick.
I stopped talking and went quiet.  In my heart it felt like a rolling security door was just about to close but was then yanked open with tremendous force.  Everything came flooding back and I realized that at this point I have to go.
She didn't take that well.

Now she's threatening divorce and is just about not talking to me.  She's also not letting me do anything for her and making a very big deal about it.

The trip is coming up in a few days... and now she's saying my son is sick.  His "fever" is below 100 (he's hovering between 98.3 and 99.1).  Apparently she told my son that if he's sick (feels "sick enough") Dad won't go...

It doesn't help that we had another chat with the kids' therapists and both said me going would be beneficial and not going would be a step backwards.  My wife then mentioned the "fever" and actually told one of the therapists that if it is contagious (allergies I suspect) then I can't go because she's going to get it and whatever the kids get she gets worse and that I have to stay home to take care of her.

It was subtle but the therapist's jaw dropped.
I think that threw the therapist who then made an almost political statement about covid but I didn't think anything of it.  It was an incomplete ramble that meant nothing.  Of course my wife is now saying she's a conspiracy theorist and she doesn't trust her with kids mental health...

I'm taking my son to the doctor in a few hours.  My wife is going to try the covid angle.  She said that if they suspect covid and do a test I'm not allowed to get on a plane and that I need to "wrap my head around not going"

Good times.

[Ventak]

There are many places where I live that do 1 hour Covid testing.. you may want to look into that in advance so you can take your son there directly after the doctor visit.

[Guts42]

Trip cancelled.

[formflier]

Trip cancelled.

Ugg..let's hear it. 

If it can be cancelled..it can be revived.

Best,

FF