New member separating from possible BPD partner. Need coping strategies & advice

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hello. I am a new member in a 2.5-year poly relationship with a cis man and a trans woman. He and I are separating from her once our lease is up in mid-August. He and I will get a 2-bedroom place while she strikes out on her own.

We would like to continue to be part of her life, as she is a wonderful person when she is not being devoured by her "monster" - all of her complex mental-health issues. But we need time and space to tend to ourselves and each other, as our mental and physical health has been damaged by the dysfunctional dynamic we have created together.

Early in our relationship, I knew she had mental-health issues, but I thought they were more along the lines of depression and anxiety, which I have experienced myself. She was diagnosed as ADHD in her early teens, and displayed some traits we at first thought were indicative of autism spectrum disorder. Only recently, after my therapist floated the possibility of a personality disorder, have I done research and come to suspect she may have BPD.

Her emotions were volitile and she always seemed to be in crisis, but we thought things would improve once she experienced some stability and emotional support. Things would get better just long enough to keep us hopeful and working on the relationship. But overall, things gradually got worse and worse. The pandemic accelerated the dysfunction in the relationship.

She has been unemployed for 10 months, and even before she was laid off two months into COVID, she relied on me to pay her moving expenses so we could live together and to float her loans to cover her bills. This was despite her making a high-five-figure income and me being a full-time student living on savings. She is a compulsive shopper and overspender. I estimate I have given her $20,000, and I will likely have to take out student loans to finish my masters program.

I recently came across the concept of the BPD's "favorite person." I think I am hers, and I am drowning because of it. In counseling-speak (my masters program is in counseling) the relationship has become triangulated. She and I have become unhealthily enmeshed, and he feels relegated to the sidelines (alienated).

She leans on me to an unhealthy, extreme degree, especially after she was laid off and we were both home all day together. My mental and physical health have both suffered from the constant crises and her seeming inability to take care of herself. I am a people pleaser, and I take full responsibility for my part in creating an unhealthy dynamic. I have tried to set boundaries, but she has a way of blowing right through them like a hurricane. When I tried to address my wants and needs, she would respond either by telling me I was attacking her, and that I needed to completely change my communication style to avoid triggering her, or that she was a terrible girlfriend and an awful person, and I should leave her. Both resulted in me trying to comfort her and to put her back together emotionally rather than addressing my own issues.

I am an introvert and highly sensitive person, which means I am highly empathetic and attuned to the feelings and needs of others. In short, I may be the worst personality type possible to try to have a relationship with a BPD person. I need regular alone time and quiet reflection to recharge. My need for time apart seems to anger her and trigger her fears of abandonment. That is one reason why it has been so difficult to set boundaries with her.

Recently, we went through a period of 3 days where all she would do for hours at a time was to talk to me about business ideas she has, and to ask me for validation that they were good ideas. It utterly exhausted me. I feel exhausted and drained all the time, TBH.

Right now, I am looking for advice and coping skills to get through our final months of living together and on how to set boundaries for contact with her moving forward. She wants to sell most of her things, buy a van, and go on camping adventures. (Seems impulsive, but she claims it's something she has always wanted to do.) But she is already asking: Can she park in our lot, use our building as a permanent address, store some of her things with us? We haven't even looked for a new apartment yet. It feels like she's trying to narrow the space between us before we've even separated, and we don't want her to end up living with us again de facto.

I also am in desperate need of self-care, but it's a constant struggle to get her to leave me alone. I took a nap this afternoon for 90 minutes, and within 30 she was texting our other partner (who was out) that she was having separation anxiety. If I try to take a break by reading, or listening to a podcast, she'll push my boundaries to a ridiculous degree. She'll ask, "Exactly how long do you want to read? Can I talk to you every 10 minutes? Every 20?" If I get up for a glass of water, "Are you done? Can I talk to you now? I miss you. Are you mad at me?"

I welcome any questions or suggestions!

[LovelyRita50]

Hello. I am a new member in a 2.5-year poly relationship with a cis man and a trans woman. He and I are separating from her once our lease is up in mid-August. He and I will get a 2-bedroom place while she strikes out on her own.

We would like to continue to be part of her life, as she is a wonderful person when she is not being devoured by her "monster" - all of her complex mental-health issues. But we need time and space to tend to ourselves and each other, as our mental and physical health has been damaged by the dysfunctional dynamic we have created together.

Early in our relationship, I knew she had mental-health issues, but I thought they were more along the lines of depression and anxiety, which I have experienced myself. She was diagnosed as ADHD in her early teens, and displayed some traits we at first thought were indicative of autism spectrum disorder. Only recently, after my therapist floated the possibility of a personality disorder, have I done research and come to suspect she may have BPD.

Her emotions were volitile and she always seemed to be in crisis, but we thought things would improve once she experienced some stability and emotional support. Things would get better just long enough to keep us hopeful and working on the relationship. But overall, things gradually got worse and worse. The pandemic accelerated the dysfunction in the relationship.

She has been unemployed for 10 months, and even before she was laid off two months into COVID, she relied on me to pay her moving expenses so we could live together and to float her loans to cover her bills. This was despite her making a high-five-figure income and me being a full-time student living on savings. She is a compulsive shopper and overspender. I estimate I have given her $20,000, and I will likely have to take out student loans to finish my masters program.

I recently came across the concept of the BPD's "favorite person." I think I am hers, and I am drowning because of it. In counseling-speak (my masters program is in counseling) the relationship has become triangulated. She and I have become unhealthily enmeshed, and he feels relegated to the sidelines (alienated).

She leans on me to an unhealthy, extreme degree, especially after she was laid off and we were both home all day together. My mental and physical health have both suffered from the constant crises and her seeming inability to take care of herself. I am a people pleaser, and I take full responsibility for my part in creating an unhealthy dynamic. I have tried to set boundaries, but she has a way of blowing right through them like a hurricane. When I tried to address my wants and needs, she would respond either by telling me I was attacking her, and that I needed to completely change my communication style to avoid triggering her, or that she was a terrible girlfriend and an awful person, and I should leave her. Both resulted in me trying to comfort her and to put her back together emotionally rather than addressing my own issues.

I am an introvert and highly sensitive person, which means I am highly empathetic and attuned to the feelings and needs of others. In short, I may be the worst personality type possible to try to have a relationship with a BPD person. I need regular alone time and quiet reflection to recharge. My need for time apart seems to anger her and trigger her fears of abandonment. That is one reason why it has been so difficult to set boundaries with her.

Recently, we went through a period of 3 days where all she would do for hours at a time was to talk to me about business ideas she has, and to ask me for validation that they were good ideas. It utterly exhausted me. I feel exhausted and drained all the time, TBH.

Right now, I am looking for advice and coping skills to get through our final months of living together and on how to set boundaries for contact with her moving forward. She wants to sell most of her things, buy a van, and go on camping adventures. (Seems impulsive, but she claims it's something she has always wanted to do.) But she is already asking: Can she park in our lot, use our building as a permanent address, store some of her things with us? We haven't even looked for a new apartment yet. It feels like she's trying to narrow the space between us before we've even separated, and we don't want her to end up living with us again de facto.

I also am in desperate need of self-care, but it's a constant struggle to get her to leave me alone. I took a nap this afternoon for 90 minutes, and within 30 she was texting our other partner (who was out) that she was having separation anxiety. If I try to take a break by reading, or listening to a podcast, she'll push my boundaries to a ridiculous degree. She'll ask, "Exactly how long do you want to read? Can I talk to you every 10 minutes? Every 20?" If I get up for a glass of water, "Are you done? Can I talk to you now? I miss you. Are you mad at me?"

I welcome any questions or suggestions!

[khibomsis]

Lovely Rita,  and welcome to the family! I am sorry for what brings you here and happy you found us! this is indeed a difficult situation you are in. It would help if you told us more of how it got to be that way. Like a frog in hot water it seems you were being groomed into greater and greater enmeshment.

Do you have receipts or bank statements of the money you loaned her? If you want space, all you have to do is to ask for the money back. If she can sell stuff to buy a van, she can sell stuff to pay you back. No, she can't store things at your new place, she can sell them and pay you back. Although you may experience some pushback in the short term - what we call on these boards an extinction burst - in the long term you will find her evaporating like hot water.

[LovelyRita50]

Lovely Rita,  and welcome to the family! I am sorry for what brings you here and happy you found us! this is indeed a difficult situation you are in. It would help if you told us more of how it got to be that way. Like a frog in hot water it seems you were being groomed into greater and greater enmeshment.

First, thank you for the invitation to clarify further! I tend to write long info dumps, so I tried to keep my first post as succinct as possible.

Yes, I think I definitely was like a frog in hot water! At each stage, my decisions seemed at least somewhat reasonable, and it was only when I was able to step back and look at the overall pattern that I realized something was way out of whack.

My male partner actually introduced us soon after they started dating (we're poly). She and I clicked from the beginning. The three of us dated for awhile and everything seemed fine; maybe our fights were a bit tempestuous compared to what I was used to, but I chalked it up to being in a new relationship and learning to communicate with each other. And maybe she was just more emotionally volatile than I had experienced before. (I was a recent widow following an 18-year marriage, and he and I got along great. I thought it had been so long since I had a new, serious relationship, that I had forgotten how much work it could be in the beginning.)

Things carried along like that for nearly a year. She talked about her struggles with depression and anxiety, and as I had experienced both myself, I empathized with her. As the older person in the relationship, I thought she just needed to work on her self-esteem more. We started talking about moving in together, and while my natural inclination was to be more cautious about that than less, we decided to move up our timeline when she needed to exit a bad roommate situation. Fine, OK, it seemed a kind thing to do and in the direction our relationship was headed anyway.

Then she needed to borrow money for moving expenses, as she was just getting settled into a new job and paying off bills from having been unemployed. Sure, why not? I was flush with cash from selling my house and had not yet started my master's program. My parents and late husband had helped me out during hard times, and I had always hoped I could "pay it forward" on behalf of someone I loved. I may have been carrying some unresolved guilt about my financial windfall, as well. Life insurance payouts had allowed me to pay off all my debts, including my mortgage, and I sold my house for $100,000 more than we had purchased it for. I was acutely aware of my financial privilege, and I had conflicting feelings about my husband's death leaving me in a better position than when he had been alive. I was excited to pursue my dream of getting a master's without having to worry about bills or taking out student loans; did that mean I was happy he had died? The guilt may have played into me not making the wisest choices.

We had big fights about how much stuff she needed to move into our new place. I had downsized and simplified my life considerably when I sold my house, and to me, her clutter seemed largely composed of worn-out furniture, more clothes than anyone needed, and a bunch of outdated electronics. But she liked to tinker with old tech and claimed the clothes were a reaction to suffering from gender dysphoria, as she was always looking for ways to feel more feminine. I figured she would realize we simply did not have enough room in our apartment for her things after the move and would downsize.

She never did. That was the first big sign something was off with her. Our apartment ranged from extremely cluttered to looking almost like a hoarder's house. I repeatedly begged her to get organized, as I prefer a tidy environment, and I get anxious in clutter, but she always had some excuse not to. Then I noticed her spending habits. Boxes of more STUFF arrived several times a week for her. She would run out of money for bills in the middle of pay periods and need me to float her a loan. I confronted her, and she cried when she told me she'd never been good with money, and would I help her stick to a budget. OK, that's fine, a lot of people are bad with money and that doesn't mean they don't deserve love. Except she would repeatedly ignore my advice and keep looking for handouts.

The pandemic arrived and the bottom dropped out. She lost her job in July 2020, and her reliance on me became more a matter of survival. Unemployment just covered her rent, and she couldn't just get a low-paying job because she relies on Medicaid to treat a chronic condition. How could I let her go hungry or without needed medicine (medical marijuana, in her case, although being stoned most of the day, every day, didn't seem like medical use to me). The suicidal thoughts and threats started. I spent hours putting her back together emotionally but could never soothe her for long. She blamed the pandemic and corporate culture. OK, sure, we're all living in unprecedented times, and COVID-19 revealed a lot of the problems with corporate capitalism.

I started to come out of the fog the further I got into my master's program, which is in relationships and family therapy. Every professor and every class emphasized the importance of self-care to help us thrive in the profession and help clients to the best of our ability. Although I was excelling academically despite all the stress, I started to feel like I was in trouble. I have one fall semester left of classes before I start my clinical component and begin to provide actual therapy. I realized I didn't feel ready because of physical and mental exhaustion. My girlfriend says she wants me to take care of myself, but her actions say otherwise. For me, self-care means time alone to recharge and reflect. She never wants to be apart from me, and short separations prompted complaints about "panic attacks" or "separation anxiety."

I also began to realize my personality was changing. Before meeting her, I had been a confident person able to set boundaries and look after my own wellbeing. I was turning into a cranky, weepy, insecure person in the face of constant attacks on my boundaries and having my words twisted constantly. I actually started to fantasize about taking out a large life-insurance policy, then killing myself and making it look like an accident, and naming my partners the beneficiaries. Maybe my girlfriend could at least get her financial house in order if nothing else.

That was a huge wakeup call. I started going to therapy on my own and within the first few sessions decided I needed to leave. I was a kind, helpful, good-humored, patient and generous person who had been victimized by a disease I knew little about and had never encountered in a loved one.

[khibomsis]

Lovely Rita, yes, it is beginning to make sense now.  It is a terribly sad story. I am glad you saw the light and began to extricate yourself. How does your male partner feel about the whole thing? I look forward to hearing more when you feel able.

[LovelyRita50]

Lovely Rita, yes, it is beginning to make sense now.  It is a terribly sad story. I am glad you saw the light and began to extricate yourself. How does your male partner feel about the whole thing? I look forward to hearing more when you feel able.

Thank you. In counseling-speak, he has been triangulated into an alienated or outsider position, while she and I are enmeshed. She says it's because he never reached out to her, but it's really the other way around. She kept me occupied with her constant crises, leaving me little time or energy for him. Understandably, he became resentful. I am doing my best now to repair that, because he loves me and wants to stay with me, and he understands the impossible position she put me in for so long.

Because he continued to work outside the home during COVID, the one thing she did do was ask him to run constant errands for her because she was "in too much pain to drive."

He was actually the first to express that we might need to leave. He'd be comforting me after I'd dealt with one of her meltdowns, and he'd say, "What are we doing here? It's like a hostage situation." He still had a lot of affection for her, though, and some guilt for thinking of "abandoning her." It's remarkable how she knew just when to love-bomb us and just when to exploit our empathy.

Since we told her we're moving out and have stuck to some basic boundaries, it's amazing what she's gotten done.

[khibomsis]

  Lovely Rita. Not that I am smiling at your pain, it is real and must have been hard to go through. Because it sounds like you had the worst of polyamory - that feeling you are never quite enough - and none of the benefits. It stands to reason that a pwBPD is unsuited for poly because with luck, they may have barely enough empathy for one person, much less  two.  What they can be good at is playing one person off against another which spells death for a peaceful relationship.

But your last sentence had me cracking a wry smile. If you want to break up with a pwBPD, introduce boundaries. Boundary early, boundary late. For instance, I sincerely hope you have cut off the financial flow because that will get her moving effectively.  Every little one helps because sooner or later all those boundaries are going to cause an extinction burst and that is your exit lane. It is much harder on the Bettering board because people who want to stay in a relationship have to balance boundaries with SET (Support, Empathy, Truth) and lots of patience. If for you the relationship is over then boundary all day. Don't feel you have to be nice about it. Like they say in permaculture, the problem is the solution.

I guess for me the important question is why did you buy into it for so long? On one level you sound like a person that has just never been up against this behaviour before and so you took a while to catch on. On another level, I am baffled by your reluctance to offend your pwBPD. You want to separate, yes? Then you have nothing to lose. Why is it so important for you to retain her good opinion? Hint: often we have FOO (Family of Origin) issues that make us want to please even those who are abusing us.

Are you in therapy? I am assuming you must be at this stage in your degree. On these boards we find that setting up a good support system a good indicator of success.
 

[LovelyRita50]

I definitely have some FOO issues! I'm a people pleaser. Also, I don't deal well with constant drama, yelling, and screaming, as my family was very reserved. My parents only had to raise their voices slightly for me to know I was in trouble. When she yells or screams at me, it's been easy to buy into the idea that it's my fault she's upset. Often, I know intellectually it's her problem, not mine, but it's hard to separate my emotions.

I also had never dealt with mental-health problems at this level before. My therapist told me it's difficult even for most therapists to work with BPD clients. I kept trying to reason with my partner, and when it didn't work, I blamed myself for "not explaining well enough." If I could just figure out how to explain myself in a way that didn't upset her, she would see reason. I had no idea her mental illness would make her unable to see reason.

I have set financial boundaries. I need to write her an email soon making my emotional boundaries more clear. I think she's convinced herself that once we move, she can invite herself over anytime until she's living with us again de facto. I don't intend to let that happen. If we see each other in the future, it will be on our terms and dependent on our emotional energy, not her crises.

We are trying to do a more gradual separation mostly to try to keep things as peaceful as possible, as we still have to live together for two months. We have given her a chance to repair the relationship mostly to try to avoid triggering an abandonment meltdown and possible suicide attempts. Neither of us really expects her to be able to keep the boundaries we've set. In that case, at least we can say we gave her "one more chance," and she can't claim we cut her off without warning.

We may be discarded soon. She's persuaded another of her partners to let her live with him "for a few months." She just told us she'll be spending most of the time before our lease is up at his place an hour away, and only return to our apartment to move more of her things out. Right now, she seems to be operating with the idea that SHE has to draw strict boundaries with US because we have done nothing but attack and hurt her. I'm actually trying to encourage her in that belief by keeping conversations focused on my part in creating the unhealthy dynamic. If she persuades herself SHE's the one who needs to leave, the less pressure will be on us.

[syndee]

"Right now, she seems to be operating with the idea that SHE has to draw strict boundaries with US because we have done nothing but attack and hurt her. I'm actually trying to encourage her in that belief by keeping conversations focused on my part in creating the unhealthy dynamic. If she persuades herself SHE's the one who needs to leave, the less pressure will be on us."

Does this work?  It seems like this would be the best strategy for minimizing the drama, having them make the decision.

[ForeverDad]

On another level, I am baffled by your reluctance to offend your pwBPD. You want to separate, yes? Then you have nothing to lose. Why is it so important for you to retain her good opinion?

Often we are waiting for the 'right time' or perfect scenario to take action.  Well, with BPD and the other acting-out PDs, the 'right time' may never come.  Sometimes we just have to determine whether to just plow ahead through a 'less bad' mess, come what may.

[khibomsis]

Well done, Lovely Rita! I am glad to hear your pwBPD is going to spend more time outside the household. How wonderful that there is this other partner
You must be prepared for the eventuality that he might also react negatively to BPD behaviours, after all, you only have her side of what was said. Two more months is a long time. So please keep on with your boundary setting, as you can see, they are working.
In the meantime enjoy the space. People often report that just being able to eat and sleep at their own pace, and not having low level tension attaching to every word or gesture, does wonders for their mental health. The opposite is also true, people can end up with chronic PTSD in long relationships with an unregulated pwBPD. So you are taking the right steps to protect yourself.

Great that you have a therapist! It is one of the factors indicative of a successful outcome, the others being family and friend support networks. Not necessarily to talk about BPD - most of us are here on this board because we find that our loved ones just don't understand - but just to have safe spaces outside the relationship.

I think in the long run the experience will make you a better therapist. On these boards one of the most common themes is the fruitless search for therapists who are willing and able to work with BPD. They are rare. Many don't understand it or get caught up in the pwBPD's wiles, and I think the reason is that it is really hard to teach theoretically. You have to feel it to know it. It can be devastating to feel let down by a therapist in a moment of crisis but it happens all the time.

I cracked another wry smile at the people pleasing. My one and only attempt at poly was a hopeless failure. I co-dependently found myself servicing two people instead of one, twice as exhausting. These days I quietly focus on my patterns.


 

[LovelyRita50]

I think in the long run the experience will make you a better therapist. On these boards one of the most common themes is the fruitless search for therapists who are willing and able to work with BPD. They are rare. Many don't understand it or get caught up in the pwBPD's wiles, and I think the reason is that it is really hard to teach theoretically. You have to feel it to know it. It can be devastating to feel let down by a therapist in a moment of crisis but it happens all the time.

I think you're right about BPD being difficult to teach theoretically. I certainly didn't catch on just by reading the DSM-5 in my assessment and diagnosis class! I didn't even think about a personality disorder until my therapist shared her suspicions. I started reading about the experiences of other families online, and the more I read, the more the BPD diagnosis seemed to fit my girlfriend. I had thought she had multiple comorbid conditions - chronic depression and anxiety, ASD, ADHD, PTSD, maybe even dissociative identity disorder, as she recently stated she feels like she is leaving her body and becoming someone else in response to strong emotions. Now I see how every one of her symptoms can fit under the BPD umbrella.

A huge reality check for me was my therapist telling me about someone she knows with BPD. This person is recovering but has to make a conscious decision every day NOT to fall back on BPD behaviors and to engage with people differently. This showed me once and for all I could not fix my partner. She has to fix herself, but she is far from knowing how to do that or where to begin.

I noticed another pattern with her of dismissing therapists as "judgmental, invalidating, uncaring." She keeps dumping therapists. I sympathized at first (bad therapists DO exist) but now I suspect they did not tell her what she wanted to hear in order to reinforce her dysfunctional coping mechanisms. She is extremely sensitive to being invalidated. The gentlest suggestion that she try something different is heard by her as a dismissal of her feelings.

She just texted me she'll be back this weekend and all next week so her other partner can visit his kids. I can't describe how healing it has been to have her away for a few days. I'm making a plan to spend more time out of the apartment next week. I'll probably go to campus where I can study, work out, take walks and get lunch. ;-)

I may post next week if we experience any extinction bursts. She won't be happy with me leaving and will likely make excuses either to come with me, or try to persuade me to study at home. (I won't bother you, I promise!) Is it best for me to continue posting on this thread or to make a new one?

[khibomsis]

Lovely Rita, feel free to 'bother' us  That's what we're here for. It is up to you to decide whether you want a new thread or stick to this one. Some like to organize their thread per topic so that they can easily refer to them, others like to keep it all together.

I am loving your observations about teaching and learning about BPD! Talk about turning a problem into a solution. I think you will have lots to contribute to your field when you are through this, it is indeed giving you a deeper understanding that you would never have had in the classroom.

If you follow Marsha Linehan's work on the subject she explains that the really difficult thing about treating BPD is that almost everything in the traditional therapeutic approach triggers them.  Her experiencing BPD traits herself helped to give insight into how it works. (sorry for the layman's terms but not a trained therapist so interpreting the way I understand).  She invented DBT as a way to treat the symptoms while not invalidating their feelings - a tightrope walk for sure and not always successful. The bottom line is that your girlfriend has got to want to get better. She is unlikely to commit to it as long as she has the option of making you caretake/manage her emotions.

Good luck with setting boundaries in the next couple of weeks! We are happy to walk with you and rehearse conversations or interventions. So much of relating to a BPD lies in the detail. If you like, take a look at the bettering board lessons as well. If you are going to be stuck with her for a while, it might help to learn how to interact in a way that cuts the dysregulations off at the pass. There is a fine line between saying yes to her every demand and triggering her. These are skills that help in other human interactions as well so learning how to use them is never time wasted.

[LovelyRita50]

I appreciate the interest and responses!

Yesterday, she had us wavering a little. She love-bombed like crazy in the evening. We had to each do a reality check for ourselves - what has really changed? What has she done to work on herself?

We realized that any respite from her anger or her meltdowns takes on outsized importance because it feels like such a relief.

This morning, a friend asked her some questions about her at-home business
(which she's getting off the ground any day now) and pushed back a little on her ideas. She responded by smashing some vases, waking us both up to crashing noises.

We have read about some communication techniques - like SET - but it's been hard for both of us to put them into practice, because we are both just so DONE with appeasing and coddling her. It feels like trying to talk sense to a 4-year-old.

How do people get comfortable with the techniques in order to help keep the peace? For me, it feels uncomfortable to be "talking down" to her, even if I know that's what she'll respond best to. I'm used to talking to my partners like they are rational adults.

Also, how do we set boundaries for when we need a break from her, either individually or as a twosome? For example, we want to see In the Heights. She'll want to come (and will want us to pay for her). We don't want her to come? How can we tell her that without triggering a meltdown?

[khibomsis]

You are welcome, LR, people have been most patient with me on these boards, so happy to pass it forward  
Ah, the lovebombing   Believe it or not but  there have been times I have posted here to ask for support against it. It is the most lovely thing in the world. As you can see it doesn't last. It is also IMHO the most psychologically damaging of all the BPD traits. Kick a dog every day and he hates you. Pat him every day and he loves you. Kick him one day and pat him the next, he becomes confused and co-dependent. There is some psychological experiment on intermittent reinforcement (I forget which but no doubt someone will come along and remind me) which shows that animals treated in this way will just sit in the cage  even if the door is open. Food for thought.

So your friend may have been a blessing in disguise. How do you feel about the incident? Has it happened before? Violence against things, strictly speaking, is considered domestic violence. You know, today the vases, tomorrow you. For sure it is emotionally abusive to wake up to such drama. I have been trained to see it as a big warning signal, but I guess it depends on the context. What boundaries/consequences will happen around the destruction?

Radical acceptance is a thing which takes  many years of practice. In your case it is not all that big a deal since you are planning to move apart anyway, but yes, she is a child emotionally. It could be 5 or 12. You will drive yourself crazy if you expect her to act beyond her emotional age. Conversely, if you accept the need to reparent, you open up the opportunity to do so firmly and with calm. Yes, of course it is weird to be dating somebody who is an emotional child, and Freud would have much to say about it.  That is why so many people choose not to do it.

If you want to go to the movies without her, the magic word is "no". Then leave and close the door. Period.

I mean this very seriously. The first year I discovered my then partner had BPD, I just walked away from every dysregulation. Eventually she started to notice and with much hard work and perseverance on both sides, she is now, four years later, in therapy, working the skills and improving all the time. And she is one of the lucky ones. If that is not the kind of commitment you have in mind then it is indeed kinder to make that very clear now.  

[LovelyRita50]

So your friend may have been a blessing in disguise. How do you feel about the incident? Has it happened before? Violence against things, strictly speaking, is considered domestic violence. You know, today the vases, tomorrow you. For sure it is emotionally abusive to wake up to such drama. I have been trained to see it as a big warning signal, but I guess it depends on the context. What boundaries/consequences will happen around the destruction?

I have tried to address some of these points with her, and she's unable to see how her behavior was inappropriate.

She said, "There's no right way to deal with anger."

She told me if I were smashing plates, she would understand how I felt.

She said everyone in her life thinks she handles her emotions incorrectly, so what is she supposed to do? She's done trying to please everyone with how she handles emotions. Her only option is to bottle up her emotions, because no one likes how she expresses them.

I said, "If you had a two-year-old who broke their toys when they got angry, would you let them do it, or would you correct the behavior?" Her only response was, "So, now I'm a two-year-old!"

[khibomsis]

LR, I think you have the answer to your question. If she acts like two than that is no doubt her emotional age. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... Certainly sounds as if she displays the narcissism so typical of that age. Well done for walking away from that conversation and coming to post here instead!
Does she ever return to baseline? Many of us stay with Mr Hyde for the sake of Dr Jekyll. It may be possible to wait it out if she ever approaches an emotional phase at which she is capable of reason, and then raise the subject again.
If not, a not unimportant question is: whose vases got broken? Who swept them up? Perhaps you may be able to sidestep the question of whether it was right to break them. Without validating the invalid, simply sidestep the issue in favour of what she is going to do by way of reparations.  She feels what she feels and is not susceptible to reason. If you can convey that reasonable adults do not like to start their day with the sound of things breaking, it will be work well done. Put the responsibility on her to figure out a way to make right what she can.
I would also step up the pressure of sweat equity. If she is not paying rent, food, utilities, etc, what is she doing instead? Perhaps setting up a chore schedule as a way for her to start repaying you your $. By constantly deflecting to the schedule, you can teach her two year old sense of responsibility that thinking something is OK doesn't make it so. Ultimately boundaries are about making your life comfortable for you. Focus on the small stuff which she is able to grasp, and police it well.
On the brighter side, this offers the perfect rationale for going to the movies without her. People who break things don't get to go on dates. Don't feed the fire too much energy, should the subject come up simply make this point and walk away. Enjoy your date and celebrate the dawning of a new start,  

[LovelyRita50]

LR, I think you have the answer to your question. If she acts like two than that is no doubt her emotional age. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... Certainly sounds as if she displays the narcissism so typical of that age. Well done for walking away from that conversation and coming to post here instead!
Does she ever return to baseline? Many of us stay with Mr Hyde for the sake of Dr Jekyll. It may be possible to wait it out if she ever approaches an emotional phase at which she is capable of reason, and then raise the subject again.
If not, a not unimportant question is: whose vases got broken? Who swept them up? Perhaps you may be able to sidestep the question of whether it was right to break them. Without validating the invalid, simply sidestep the issue in favour of what she is going to do by way of reparations.  She feels what she feels and is not susceptible to reason. If you can convey that reasonable adults do not like to start their day with the sound of things breaking, it will be work well done. Put the responsibility on her to figure out a way to make right what she can.
I would also step up the pressure of sweat equity. If she is not paying rent, food, utilities, etc, what is she doing instead? Perhaps setting up a chore schedule as a way for her to start repaying you your $. By constantly deflecting to the schedule, you can teach her two year old sense of responsibility that thinking something is OK doesn't make it so. Ultimately boundaries are about making your life comfortable for you. Focus on the small stuff which she is able to grasp, and police it well.
On the brighter side, this offers the perfect rationale for going to the movies without her. People who break things don't get to go on dates. Don't feed the fire too much energy, should the subject come up simply make this point and walk away. Enjoy your date and celebrate the dawning of a new start,  

You brought up some points I had not considered, especially regarding "sweat equity." We have certainly let her get away with a lot!

She does very little around the house. She has a legitimate chronic medical condition - Crohn's disease - but I don't always know if her excuses are legitimate. She often claims to be in pain and unable to walk. She'll even say that she WISHES she could do more, but in the meantime, thank you so much for taking such good care of her! She claims she is disabled (one of her go-to tantrums is to complain that we don't understand what it's like to be disabled). She recently decided she can't work a traditional job and has to instead start a home business. (However, she refuses to apply for any disability assistance.)

However, now that I'm seeing patterns more clearly, I notice she can do things when she REALLY wants to. She'll walk to the dispensary when she's out of weed. She'll clean if something specific is bugging her (i.e. a smelly toilet). We may want to think of ways to leverage this to get more of what we want (get your laundry out of the living room and we'll go to the movies!) It feels weird, as you noted, because who wants to date a child? Also, she seems to know when she's being treated like a child, and she doesn't like it (even if that's how she's acting).

I have started to set boundaries in smaller ways. For example, she used to expect us to remind her when to take her meds and to bring them to her with water at night. We've stopped that. I've also really tried to stop rescuing her. She will typically claim a task is "overwhelming" her or inducing a panic attack so that I step in and do it for her. I am trying to use SET instead - express empathy for what she is feeling and then ask her how she intends to approach the task. I've been leery of the "support" part - in the past, she seems to have heard, "I'll help if I can" as "Leave it to me; I'll do it all."

Financially, I have set bigger boundaries. I'll continue to buy food but no more paying her way at restaurants or for takeout. I gave her a set amount of money to buy medical marijuana for the rest of the summer, and once that's gone, she'll have to figure out how to buy it. (The amount is about a third of what she HAD been spending every month.) Already, she has asked me for a $1,000 "loan" and I said no. Once we move, all financial help will cease.

About the vases, they are hers, and I think she swept up the mess (boyfriend may have helped). She says breaking them was better than self-harm (she has cut herself in the past). We agreed, but said taking a walk outside would have been better still (I asked her how she managed anger when she had a job and couldn't break things at the office.) She called us overly judgemental and only interested in extracting "a pound of flesh" from her in revenge. I think you have the right idea: keep it simple. Express our feelings and ask her to clean up whatever mess she's made.

In this case, I think we could have told her the two of us would be going on a date, because we felt stressed after starting our day so badly, and that we needed space from her and our anger at her. Then walk out, as you said, and let her handle her feelings about it.

Yes, she IS Dr. Jekyll sometimes. We've stayed so long because we mistook the good moods for progress. It took awhile to notice that Dr. Jekyll only showed up either when 1. All her needs were met without pushback from us, or 2. She had done something hurtful and needed to charm her way back into our good graces. Now that we're leaving, she swings back and forth wildly. A couple of hours ago, she was arguing with us; now she's acting all cute and cuddly. She has probably switched back and forth four times today at least.

[LovelyRita50]

Just an FYI (and some good news) about the financial issues. I looked through some paperwork today and found an IRA of my late husband's, of which I am the beneficiary. I reviewed the tax laws, and even accounting for taxes on it as income and a possible 10% penalty, I should be able to cash it out for about the same amount that I have given her over the past two years. So that sets my mind at ease about replenishing my college fund. (I have my own 401k that contains the funds from my husband's 401K as well, so I'm not neglecting my own savings.)

However, I'm not going to tell her anything about the IRA. I don't badger her, but occasionally in a fit of guilt she will pay me a little bit of money back, and it's fine with me if that continues.

[LovelyRita50]

I can sometimes be too free with my money because I come from a financially privileged family. My parents were able to pay all of my college undergraduate expenses, and in a position to help me as an adult when I legitimately needed it, as well as to give several generous cash gifts simply because it gave them pleasure to do so. I'm acutely aware of my own financial privilege, and perhaps I am generous sometimes out of a misplaced sense of guilt, as well as a genuine desire to help people out when I can. Initially, I saw helping my girlfriend as a way to pay it forward, by doing for someone else what my parents have done for me. Obviously, she took advantage of it to an extreme degree. It's a good lesson to learn.

[ForeverDad]

However, I'm not going to tell her anything about the IRA.

Correct.  You have a right to keep this confidential since your relationship with her is not a legal one and evidently will be ending at some point.  And knowing her financial habits, you know that sharing this information would be TMI - Too Much Information.

A good perspective... while it is true you have no obligation to share your financial matters with her... the even better reason not to share is to avoid her excusing her own obligation to be responsible for herself.

In general, when dealing with BPD, giving and gifting = enabling poor habits and even more dependency.

[LovelyRita50]

Heh, you just reminded me of an encounter I had with a Chicago panhandler as a naive young adult. I got out my wallet to search for some $1s, and he pointed to my $20 and said, "I'll take that."

[khibomsis]

LR, wonderful news about the IRA! It is great that you don't have to go into debt to finish college. Yes indeed there is no obligation to share the news. Whether or not you are wealthy, she shouldn't lend money without paying it back. It is about character.

I am sorry to hear about the Crohn's disease. PwBPD seem to disproportionately suffer from crippling diseases, especially those in which stress plays a major role.  Their extreme emotional moodswings play havoc with the body. Crohn's disease can be caused and worsened by chronic stress. Perhaps the approach to anger management could be that by learning to better ways to manage it she will be able to improve the course of the disease. There are a plethora of techniques, chanting is my tipple but meditation, yoga, exercise, etc  also help. There are also anger management courses which her therapist can recommend. Perhaps wait till the next time she is sweet and cuddly and gently broach the subject?  Thus shifting the terrain from her anger stresses you - which clearly has no impact on her - to the fact that it makes her sicker. Unfortunately her body is not two years old and is struggling to stand up to the strain that is put on it.

Turmeric and comfrey tea will greatly help. And kombucha. I mention this with hesitation because I know the penalty for suggesting it may be that you are suckered into the responsibility of providing those things. Do not. If nothing else she needs to be responsible for her body. I think you are doing great so far with the radical acceptance and the boundary setting.

Wonderful that she had the presence of mind to break her own stuff! At least that will help to reduce the clutter You must excuse my awful sense of humour, on these boards we don't get much chance to laugh so must seize any opportunity. It certainly seems as if you have made some progress with that. At least you communicated without further breaking of glass. In the land of BPD that is good going.  Perhaps requesting her to go break things in her room with the door closed next time might be a way to close the episode?  I am thinking around ways to establish the principle that her anger needs to be boundaried by your need to not be disturbed by broken china. If she can be brought to grasp that your needs are legitimate too, some progress will be made.

Well done on ending the financial abuse! Requests for money should be met by a request to go apply for the disability grant. Hold a firm line on this one because the last thing you want to do is enable her dependency on you. Takeaways and restaurant food very bad for the Crohn's.

Marijuana can have  withdrawal symptoms. Maybe two three hours after imbibing it can cause a depression as it starts to leave the system. Would be interesting to know if it correlates to her mood swings. 

All in all, LR, you seem to be progressing as well as can be expected. The things take time and coming back from a period of fuzzy boundaries where your own needs got put last is the most difficult thing ever.

Keep us posted on how it goes with the sweat equity!

 

[LovelyRita50]

KH, I love your sense of humor! I have a dark sense of humor myself.

Just a quick reply: I feel like I need to write her an email laying out our boundaries going forward. I am afraid she's convinced herself everything will be the same - that we won't be living together, but she can come over and crash whenever. She also seems to think the relationship will automatically continue without any change on her part.

I may post it here before I send it. I had planned to focus mainly on my own needs for space, peace, a chance to work on myself - but I don't want to absolve her of all responsibility for how bad our dynamic has gotten. The main message I want to convey is that she needs to focus on getting herself well - physically and mentally - rather than some checklist she imagines will lead to us taking her back. I am not sure she has any ability to comprehend that message.

I am feeling a bit confused this morning, as we had another conversation about boundaries. She claimed she never pushes back on my boundaries; that what I experience as pushback is just her making mistakes as she practices keeping boundaries. She said when that happens I just need to restate my boundary.

She is very good at getting me to doubt myself and to believe that if I just communicated with her "correctly," everything would be fine. I wouldn't have to put us all through the stress of moving. She keeps coming back to the idea that all our problems are caused by my inability to set and maintain boundaries.

Any suggestions for best communicating with her while relieving myself of all responsibility for our problems?

[LovelyRita50]

She sent me an interesting text just now that's doubling down on her BPD, I think.

"You know what it is? Somehow I exude a chemical that gives people uncertainty about my future. My future is fine, and always has been. It's a rickty train, but she's fast as freak, and she runs clean as a whistle, UNLESS PEOPLE START POKING PLEASE READ IN IT"

She then elaborated, "I have a system that works for me. It hurts other people because they don't understand it. I have relied too much on you. I'm going to show you I can make it riding my train."

OK. You keep on driving that train while I get out of the way.

[khibomsis]

LR, glad you are sounding more cheerful and resolute! I hope that you are remembering rest and self care during this time, it is easy to let things slip.

Look, this is a tricky time, you are going to separate but are still living together. At the core of BPD is abandonment issues which are now triggered by your stated intention to move. You must expect everything to be hyped up. She is as far from taking responsibility for her actions as can be, and so her sense of abandonment is mixed with resentment. A toxic combo.

It is a lot. Going back to the broken vase episode, it seems clear that the run a business from home plan was meant to keep you hooked for a little longer. The criticism from friend crushed those dreams, it is sad really, they have no gray area and see everything in black and white. That sparked the dysregulation and you must expect episodes of instability.

Do you anticipate any form of friendship with her once you move? Is your community small so you must expect to keep bumping into her? Because such considerations help to determine the way forward.

With the letter I would ju jitsu, use the opponents strength against her. It sounds terrible where you once were lovers to use such antagonistic language, but there are real conflicts over power. She almost had you completely manipulated and you cannot expect her to give that up without a fight.

My approach would be to take full and complete responsibility. "Dear soon to be ex, it was all my fault, I shouldn't have lent you $ 20 000, I should have had stronger boundaries around my finances, and now I can't get over my resentment that you don't pay it back. I will work on my issues in therapy, and it would be great if you could contribute something towards those expenses. Dear, we have had many wonderful times but I find the breaking of glass just unattractive. I know there is something wrong with me that it doesn't turn me on. The clutter causes my passion to dry up and I know I should do better at getting excited by it. My sex drive must be defective that your dirty laundry does nothing to excite me." Well, not to take it too far because she is smart and may get suspicious.  But something along those lines. The its-not-you-its-me approach has the advantage of leaving nothing unclear. You won't get back together because you are not fixed. Also it serves to validate her. Its not her fault, its yours. That may cause her to relax enough for you to be able to discuss ways  in which she could improve on her 'chemical'.
By all means run it past us here, there are many greater experts than me who can help you phrase it well. And it helps to run it past your therapist too before you decide to send it.
In the meantime I hope your week is calm.

[LovelyRita50]

I HAVE been more cheerful! Thank you everyone who has helped!

I was able to have a mostly calm conversation with girlfriend last night about the boundaries I'll be enforcing once we've moved out. She didn't like hearing all of it, but she at least seemed on board for now. I don't feel the need to write an email anymore, although I may make notes for myself in case she tries to twist my words later.

I should be able to liquidate the IRA and have cash in hand in the next few weeks. I'm just waiting on paperwork.

Boyfriend and I have applied for a great apartment - spacious, affordable for us and in a great neighborhood. A real find in our city! It's a two-bedroom that's the same square footage as our current three-bedroom, at about the same rent.

I started tracking meals and working out again - I have put on 50 pounds in the 5 years since my husband died from grief and various stressors.

Doing so much better now that I've set clear boundaries. I am willing to continue a friendship and maybe even a dating relationship, but it will totally depend on whether she honors my boundaries. She has short periods where she shows insight into her own behavior, so I am hopeful, but proceeding with caution. Either way, I am determined not to let my own well-being be dictated by her moods, progress, or lack of progress.

[khibomsis]

LR, wonderful to hear you are doing better! Great news about the apartment and I wish you plenty of uncluttered spaces in your future  Yes, diet and exercise and your own wellbeing sounds like a plan.

[LovelyRita50]

It's moving time! pwBPD is moving her stuff out the next few days with help from another of her partners and a friend. She is temporarily moving in with the partner in a city about an hour south of us.

Today was the day to move heavy furniture. She had told me before today the only thing she would need me to do was take her to get the rented truck  from the U-Haul place. But of course, it turned into a s$#! show.

First, she had a tearful meltdown in which she exclaimed it was so hard emotionally to leave and to think back on all of the terrible things she's done. (Remember that feeling for the future, maybe?)

She and partner got her bed moved, then she said she was "running on very little bandwidth" and something was wrong with her body. She felt like passing out. Could I help her partner move the rest of the furniture?

I committed only to emptying shelves for her - she had a big IKEA storage cube to move and hadn't taken anything out of it ahead of time. I put everything in her room where her bed had been, and she and other partner figured out how to move the rest in the meantime.

I went into my room for a bit, and was just tying an untied shoelace when I hear from the living room:

"Rita? Help, help, help, HELP!"

"Just a minute, tying my shoe."

"Help, HELP HELP!" (much louder).

"Tying my SHOE!" (annoyed)

I go out in the living room, and she's in a fetal position on the floor, crying that something is wrong with her body, she's "having muscle-skeletal issues" and "running on fumes."

At each emotional dysregulation, I gave her a small amount of empathy and then asked what she wanted to do next, trying to keep her focused on the move.

She sorts herself out, she and partner take the last big item, and they're on their way ... But nope.

She suddenly realizes she doesn't know where her car keys are and panics about having her car stolen until she finds them.

She worries they may not have time to unload the truck and drive it back, and that's she's going to get charged for another day's rental. (I have already advanced her $100 for rental fee, gas, and buying her other partner lunch. She's been good about paying me back when her unemployment comes through, but she still has frequent cash-flow problems.) Partner talks her into making the drive after she ponders unloading everything and bringing it back to the apartment.

She and partner forget her purse and the truck dolly. They need me to return the dolly to U-Haul.

Through all this, I am mostly an observer who's both annoyed and bemused. I watched as other partner coddled her through her emotional outbursts. They have no idea what they're in for.

I briefly sympathized with her when she first started to cry, but now I feel as though I watched a metaphor for our entire relationship play out in real time.

She can't handle adult responsibilities. Whenever anything is the slightest bit uncomfortable - physically or emotionally - she tries to avoid responsibility by putting it on me to get done. I sidestepped that today, but she had someone else here to pick up the slack. How long before they get tired of her manipulations?

I feel sad for her, but mostly I feel free. I am about to get my life back.

[khibomsis]

Congratulations, Lovely Rita! 
However she went, I am glad that she is gone and you can enjoy the peace. I hope you are pouring yourself a nice glass of bubbly and celebrating in style.

You have a nice turn with words, of being a therapist doesn't work out you should consider writing

[LovelyRita50]

Congratulations, Lovely Rita! 
However she went, I am glad that she is gone and you can enjoy the peace. I hope you are pouring yourself a nice glass of bubbly and celebrating in style.

You have a nice turn with words, of being a therapist doesn't work out you should consider writing

Awwwwww, thank you! My bachelor's degree is in journalism, and I previously worked as a newspaper reporter.