More SS-related drama

[formflier]

What was your therapists advice about how to handle your husbands threats of homicide and bodily harm?

I like your T's idea about reviewing the day...good plan.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Actually, it was H’s idea.y T just said that sounded good.

As for H’s violent speech, T didn’t really say much about that. She seemed to think it was just a (VERY strong) verbalization of his anger/fear/insecurity. Honestly, while it’s difficult to listen to, I’ve never really taken it seriously because, at my core, I don’t believe he would ever do anything.

It was kind of rolled in with my shutting things down — like any talk about my family (or their friends).

[formflier]

So...if your T's and his P both accurately know about your husbands threats...and they aren't alarmed by them...then I think many of use (especially me) can relax a bit.

This is an area where there can be NO SHADOWs for behavior to hide (threats of this kind).

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

I look back to some of the things he’s done and said, listened to some recordings, and I just can’t imagine those things are normal. Yet this nagging voice keeps asking: am I being unfair? Oversensitive?

We members here, I would venture to say all of us, are reasonably normal people whose Nice Guy and Nice Gal personas are to be exceedingly nice, generous and fair... to a fault.  By that I mean, what would be otherwise excellent qualities — niceness, generosity, fairness — are "faults" when dealing with acting-out (to extremes) persons.

So you have to "double down" on your perspectives, your good traits aren't the problem, don't doubt yourself, at least not overmuch.  And some of us, such as in your case, are at risk of suffering DV as well.

[Ozzie101]

I think I need to do some sort of regular reality checks — possibly through journaling, reading the books I have, rereading old journal entries, listening to recordings. Maybe that can help keep me grounded. That and make sure I’m carving out time to do things I used to enjoy.

Part of what bothers me is I just don’t feel much enjoyment of anything these days. Everything feels forced. My T said that’s not unusual given the ramp-up in incidents.

I just don’t want to look up one day and find myself in a hole.

H is going out of town for almost a week at the beginning of July. I’m hoping that can be a respite of sorts for me.

[Cat Familiar]

You did take the Mosaic test? Do you remember your score? Perhaps it’s time to retake it.

I’m not willing to just give a pass on death threats. Sure, he may just be articulating an extreme level of displeasure. But that he goes into fugue states where he doesn’t remember his behavior—that gives me pause. And the unremitting victimhood.

Most people don’t visualize or verbalize murdering someone they don’t like. Perhaps doing something unpleasant to them or a doing a prank, but putting a bullet into them? That’s worrisome to me.

[Ozzie101]

I did the Mosaic test 2.5 years ago and again a couple of months ago — scored a 6 both times.

I just got off the phone with H (we needed to figure out dinner and he wanted to give me a heads-up that his mom may be calling me about something).

Anyway, he said he’s made a list of a few topics he wants to discuss tonight because he’s been thinking a lot about things. He had thoughts about underlying issues, what led to his more recent difficulties. He also said things about how, ultimately, we’re both going to have to work on ourselves (I agree) and that a lot of it will come down to understanding and accepting people and just dealing with things.

So now I’m feeling a sinking feeling. I just have this strong suspicion that he’s going to double down on things he hinted at yesterday — that much of the problem is I just don’t understand where he’s coming from and I can’t cope with his rages (which aren’t out of the ordinary).

I told him I’m happy to discuss things and will be glad to hear and discuss his thoughts. But inside I’m just praying I don’t get triggered. He might be more reasonable than I’m anticipating. But I just suspect I’m in for a conversation of him normalizing his behavior and/or blaming me for not supporting or understanding him enough.

ETA: Just re-took and got a 7. Not sure how accurate it was as a couple of questions I really wasn’t sure how to answer.

Anyway, I plan to listen to what he has to say, practice mindfulness, stay calm, but stay clear-eyed.

[Ozzie101]

Last night wasn’t too bad but wasn’t great either. He’s been playing organ at a small local church and got triggered by a couple of things. It was enhanced by a friend of his who reacted in a way H felt was supportive (as opposed to me, even though I pretty much said the same things). Anyway, he spun off into complaints about our wedding, how we had had to have it in my hometown church, which is only 45 minutes from where we live now, and how the organist there was awful — even though he ended up not playing for us. It was apparent he was in a cycle, saying the same things over and over — and, once again, pulling places, people or events important to me into situations to which they’re only related if you squint and tilt your head. So, I eventually just said “It seems like this is something you feel strongly about. We’ve talked about it a while. Do you have anything new to say about it?” No. I changed the conversation to something else, which led to pouring on his part.

He was still moody after SS10 went to bed, but he was more rational and “with it” when he addressed the things he had been thinking about and wanted to share.
1) He will never get past what happened at his old job and thinking “your parents’ friends” are bad people. Though he conceded he didn’t know all the story or what role the wife played in the decisions. (Husband was not even on the committee but H hates him too.) he said that I will just have to get past that. Not sure what that means. I don’t care how he feels about them. I just don’t want to hear about it anymore.

2) He doesn’t want me to keep seeing a T. He says seeing therapists just moves people in different directions until they’re split. Each person’s T is their advocate and just criticizes the other partner’s behavior. He said his most recent Ts had both pointed out things I had done wrong or should have done differently. I couldn’t tell if that was bait or not but I didn’t ask questions. I don’t think I need to know because he may not have presented a full story, they might have meant it a different way and I know I do and have done some things wrong.
I told him that’s not the point of my therapy. It’s for me. To make me stronger and give me tools so that our relationship can be the best it can be. The individuals have to be strong for the unit to be healthy. He dropped it but I’m sure it will continue to come up.

3) He can’t get past my telling my family about our problems 2.5 years ago when he had no clue there were problems. It makes him not want to be around them, judging and hating him. Now I’m talking about joining my family beach trip next year and he doesn’t want to go but feels like he’d have to because otherwise he’ll be the odd one not going and people will talk about him and blame him.
We’ve covered this ground before. He knows I’ve said I tried to talk to him and he wouldn’t listen and I felt like I had no choice. I do regret telling people but I don’t think it was the wrong decision at that time.
Anyway, he said he still has and always will have resentment about that. I just said I understood and that there were a lot of things I wish had never happened. My family (as far as I can tell anyway) has moved on.

So, that was our night. Frankly, I just feel tired.

Can’t get past resentment at my telling family and he didn’t know
Both his most recent Ts criticized my behavior
We’re moving in different directions with different Ts

[formflier]

Do you have anything new to say about it?” 

 

 

Is this the first time you have used this?

Based on what you saw after using this line...how do you plan to use it in the future?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

2) He doesn’t want me to keep seeing a T.  

Please don't do this until a couple others on these boards give a green light to this...

I think this is a place to succinctly go on offense.

"Hey babe...I'm troubled by the misunderstanding of what my T and I do together...privately. Our work revolves around how I should behave when I don't get my way...which I still struggle with.

I'm going to keep seeing my T.

I'll trust that you spent enough time with your T to not throw a tantrum over my decision."


What do you think he would do?

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

On the “anything new to say” bit — I have said something similar before but never that succinctly. I will use it again but, from past experience, I expect him to adjust to the new strategy and plow on ahead.

On point 2: I actually did say most of that — just didn’t go to the part about trusting he spent enough time with his. I just stressed that I’m going to keep seeing mine. That it sounds like there’s a misunderstanding about what my T and I work on. We work on me, things I struggle with, my reactions and how to handle things that happen (not just our marriage) because I can be easily triggered.

He dropped that one but, again, it will keep coming up. He feels threatened by it (and feels like my going is his “fault”) and possibly a little jealous as I’ve had good experiences with two Ts in my life and get something out of it. Similar with family stuff. He seems to see that as a threat to us.

[Cat Familiar]

He can’t seem to let go of the past and needs to rehash it over and over, weaponizing it: location of your wedding, your parent’s friend, your family’s knowledge about your relationship problems.

These events are all present tense in his mind.

Your therapy is seen as a threat to him.

The irony is that what is really a threat to his security in the relationship is his behavior, how he won’t take responsibility for outcomes he’s created, and how he blames others for situations of his own making.

[Ozzie101]

Exactly. He really can’t see it at all. Anything that happens seems to bring old events (even ones several years old) to the forefront and he can’t seem to stop ruminating.

With my family’s knowledge of our problems (previous — they don’t know what’s going on now), it comes up occasionally. But what he can never truly admit or grasp is that he actually did the things that upset people and drove me away. It was my choice to tell and I own that. But the events happened.

One of my sisters has had troubles the last couple of years (I suspect some PD exists there) and it’s a sore spot for him that the family still loves and supports her, yet they were ready to be done with him. He doesn’t seem to understand how the situations and relationships are different. Kind of like his frequent passive-aggressive comments about how no one cares about SS10.

Anyway, I know not to expect these admissions or insights from him. It’s just frustrating.

He says he wants me to be able to talk to him about things. I would like that too. But I can’t. Not about some things, anyway. It never goes over well — and if it does, it gets weapon used later.

He’s the one pushing me away. Things like my therapy and this site are a big part of what makes me able to (somewhat) manage and stick around.

[formflier]

So...what about pausing the start of these conversations and asking..

"This seems important.  How do you see this conversation improving our relationship."

Then...only deal with that, if he refuses to answer, conversation is over.

If he has a theory on how "rehashing" seems to help...focus the conversation on understanding his point of view on that.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Good suggestion. I’m curious to hear what his answer would be.

[formflier]

I also think since he is bringing up T...that is where the focus should lie.

"OK...let's schedule time together with my T to discuss your concerns."  Then...never again discuss them...NEVER...outside a therapeutic environment.

Remember...all of these efforts/conversations meetings are around one central claim of his.

He wants to change..but has NO IDEA how to.

So...he can listen to your Ts thoughts on that (as well as other things)

He can listen to  his Ps thoughts on this (as well as other things)

Then at some point...nobody can deny that "he knows" but is either unwilling or doesn't wan to "do" those things.

Of course..perhaps he also actually does them and improves.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Good plan, FF.

Talk is cheap. Look at behavior, not talk.

He’s remorseful when he’s been caught behaving poorly. He apologizes but he doesn’t change his behavior.

He claims he doesn’t know what to do or can’t change.

If that is truly the case, what you’re dealing with will only change regarding the details. The patterns will repeat over and over and over.

[formflier]

Talk is cheap. Look at behavior, not talk.
 

And...to add to this, focus all of your talk on  a change in behavior.

So...in this example.  Stop bitching about a T and show up...discuss concerns there.

Basically..quickly exit "rehash" mode and put the spotlight on him taking some action "other than rehashing".

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Very good suggestions from both of you. I really appreciate that and will put thought into how to implement when the moment hits.

[formflier]

Very good suggestions from both of you. I really appreciate that and will put thought into how to implement when the moment hits.

And..as part of "mindset shift"...I would encourage you to start "creating moments"...even if they are uncomfortable for your hubby...and you.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

And..as part of "mindset shift"...I would encourage you to start "creating moments"...even if they are uncomfortable for your hubby...and you.

The irony is that he wants you to talk to him. You’re hesitant to do so because he can be set off so easily. He senses that you’re not fully disclosing yourself. He then gets fearful that you’ll leave. Fear causes him to act poorly. Over time you wonder if this relationship is worth staying. He senses your emotional retreat. It triggers his fear. He behaves badly. Rinse and repeat.

[formflier]

  Fear causes him to act poorly.

  He behaves badly.

the bold is the part of the cycle for you to zero in on "like a sniper"..especially because he "wants" to be different..but has "no idea" how to.

So..let the people that "have an idea" tell him...and then (we know he will do it poorly..especially at first)...watch his efforts.

Keep handing it back to him to correct his behavior...at some point (hopefully guided by professionals ...you will l likely end any and all participation in conversations about "family and friends doing him in"

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Good “long game” plans there.

Yes, creating moments and opening up to him more will be difficult — for both of us. I’ve gotten so used to keeping things to myself (or just mentioning things here or to my T). But I’m sure he can sense that and it adds to the snowball effect. People keeping things from him is a huge trigger.

I struggle with bringing up anything serious when he’s in a good mood, for fear of plunging us into another incident. But that’s stagnating. It’s not really addressing the problem.

So, I really need to think about how to open up and what things to discuss or disclose. As well as ways to hand things back when it goes off the rails.

[Cat Familiar]

He probably senses that he's sort of a *second class citizen* in your world in that you don't share openly with him the way you do with your family or your therapist. For that reason, he's likely jealous of the ease with which you relate to others, and not to him.

[GaGrl]

He probably senses that he's sort of a *second class citizen* in your world in that you don't share openly with him the way you do with your family or your therapist. For that reason, he's likely jealous of the ease with which you relate to others, and not to him.

And that brings it back to the reason why sharing is limited -- his reactions and quickly escalating rages. He has not made the connection between his behavior and other people's attitude toward him. I don't see him doing anything to change until and unless he makes a deep internal connection that then helps him see that any change will require "work" on his own -- therapeutic work that he no longer wants to do.

[Ozzie101]

I think that’s definitely a theme, GaGrl. He doesn’t make that connection: that certain events and attitudes of others are consequences of his own actions. Instead, it’s always the fault of someone else.

Granted, I’m far from perfect and make many mistakes. And I don’t like to make excuses. But it is difficult. We have had some good, productive-seeming conversations in the past when I’ve shared my feelings and thoughts about things. It generally isn’t productive, ultimately. And can be used against me at times. But I may just need to change my approach. I don’t know. But any sharing will have to be carefully thought out.

And, yes, Cat, I’m sure you’re right about the jealousy. (Though the only person I share with is my T.) I do feel comfortable talking about my feelings (non-H-related) with certain family members. Solely because I know they love and support me and would never use my words against me. I want that with him. But it will take time to get there.

[I Am Redeemed]

And that brings it back to the reason why sharing is limited -- his reactions and quickly escalating rages. He has not made the connection between his behavior and other people's attitude toward him. I don't see him doing anything to change until and unless he makes a deep internal connection that then helps him see that any change will require "work" on his own -- therapeutic work that he no longer wants to do.

I agree. It seems that at this point, his connection to his behavior and other people's attitudes towards him as being cause and effect: their attitudes cause his behavior.

His rehashing of the past seems obsessive, hyperfocused on perceived rejection, and all too familiar to me.

There's also absolutely nothing you can do to change the past or make him feel better about it. Nothing short of actually changing the past would probably do it. That's impossible. He's stuck and not forward looking at all, and without the ability to process his feelings and move forward, conversations about perceived injustices of the past are unproductive and even emotionally or mentally harmful to you.

It's a classic abuser behavior: these people in your life wronged me un this way, so to make it up to me, you must cut ties with them and show loyalty to only me.

That's how abusers eliminate threats, and how abuse victims and up stuck without support and immersed in the world of their abuser.

[formflier]

Hey Ozzie,

I'm certainly not suggesting you "open up" to him in a vulnerable way..that's a long way off.  If others are suggesting that...I'd be interested in hearing more.

I am suggesting that thinking about responses and then passively waiting for "a moment" to appear is "not a complete strategy"...although it is obviously wise to prepare.

You see...by limiting yourself to passive until he makes a move...who is "in charge" of the relationship?   Your life...?  Your schedule?

So...I think that you should pick a time for public brunch...perhaps set things up to where you meet him somewhere so each of you have a car.

"Hey..it's been a couple weeks since we talked about addressing your rages (or whatever you want to call them..)...I'm wondering what new ideas you have?"

Certainly we need to work on coaching on words and such...the point is that YOU bring up his behavior and you seek information about his fixing it and if he bobs and weaves...ask him directly if his commitment to address this is still valid.

And if he finds these conversations unpleasant...he does have a way out..right?  What would that be?

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Oh, I agree that I may need to initiate. By waiting for a moment I meant more like making sure the mood and situation are right. For instance, last night SS10 had a tournament baseball game that had H very anxious and on-edge. That would not have been a good time.

If he feels overwhelmed or doesn’t want to discuss, he’s always free to walk/drive away. Or to say he doesn’t want to talk right now.

Regardless, going on past behavior, I expect him to be uncomfortable. To get defensive. If he’s in a stable place he’ll be able to keep it together. He’ll just get very tense and will argue. Or, he’ll just shut down and completely tune me out. Until next time he gets upset.

One thing he’s very focused on is that he’s not the whole problem. I’m certainly willing and able to admit that I have made (and will continue to make) mistakes. But it almost always turns to “if other people didn’t do this” or “if they would just do that” or if I could just be supportive and give him what he needs and not put anything and everyone before him and SS.

I know it’s the BPD (or whatever is really going on). And I know he’s acting from a place of deep insecurity, shame and fear. But it does get frustrating when I know that, really, so many of these problems (not just ones with me) are actually caused by him. I don’t want to come across like I’m always attacking him or trying to make him feel like it’s all his fault. That would not be productive. Maybe try telling him some specific things I am planning yo work on? So it seems less one-sided?

[St Jude]

Ozzie,

My husband (we are now separated for almost 2 weeks), has often said concerning his rage episodes that I do not want him to ‘express himself’.  I would always tell him that I very much want him to express himself and discuss with me things that are bothering him, to which he often replied, ‘I can’t talk to you about things’. 

Right up until the day before I left for my alone time (he let me know a couple weeks ago he is throwing in the towel and had gotten his own apartment and that he only wants to worry about himself), he was bringing up these ‘issues’, all of which were not current day but things that happened years ago that have plagued him for years apparently, the biggest one: my being friends with someone when he first met me that he was uncomfortable with because we had dated.  We dated for 2 weeks in 2011, I felt zero connection and didn’t continue to see this person romantically and we were neighbors and had a friendship, which I completely ended the friendship (my neighbor was furious and confused) when I met my husband in 2014 because he was uncomfortable with it.  Apparently this has plagued my husband for years, however he had not expressed these concerns until they came out in a drunken rage and completely took me off guard, seeing as it is 2021.  The point being, he says that he feels he cannot talk to me about things that bother him, but when it boils over and he rages and I get upset he says I just don’t want him to express himself.

I went to stay with a friend for a few days after an epic meltdown which led to our separation and he was texting me all kinds of crazy things and kept saying that I do not care about his concerns.  I just kept responding that I very much care about his concerns and would like to discuss them in a respectful way.  I did not engage beyond that.

 Over  the years I would get drawn into these text explosions and attempt to appease him and bring him out of rage, typically he would be back to his loving wonderful self within a few hours, and the cycle continued.  I do wish I had practiced better boundaries with him earlier, but this thing has been a maze that ever changes that I’ve been running around and hitting walls that didn’t exist before. 

In short, no, it is most certainly not normal the way they express themselves.  This is the first time in 7 years that we haven’t spoken every day (day 11 now of NC) and I’m finally unhooked from this plug of constant worry about how he’ll perceive communication and if he’s going to be triggered.

It sounds crazy to me writing all this, like how the hell was I living like this, but the bad days for us had honestly gotten so much fewer and far between, and he truly is a wonderful, amazing man when he’s not triggered.  But even on our best days, there was typically an undercurrent that I was aware of, and that didn’t allow me to ever fully relax and enjoy life, and that’s the truth I am dealing with now, that as an adult I allowed myself to stay in a situation that I knew was wreaked with dysfunction because I just loved him too much to leave.  And so finally he had to be the one to say he was leaving.