SD15 escalating pushback and seeking validation from Mom/Stepdad

[kells76]

Both SD13 and SD15 are involved in an extracurricular activity that, for now, meets outside in a public park. There are about 15 other kids involved and the ages range from 6 to teens. There are college-age helpers in their 20s. The focus of the activity, needless to say, has absolutely nothing to do with body appearance. Also, the girl that SD15 has had a crush on/ongoing friendship with also participates. This is the only time they can see each other in person, as they go to different schools and the friend's parents aren't keen on in-person get togethers, still.

DH takes them, as it meets once a week on his weekday afternoon. Apparently last time, they were wrapping up, and SD15 comes back to the car wearing (as far as I have heard secondhand) either just her bra as a top, or some kind of fully unzipped/unbuttoned shirt with bra completely showing.

We actually have been through this once before, again in a public park. It was a few months ago and it was a skate park in a rougher area of town.

DH asked her to zip up. She asked why, so DH said because of the context -- it was not home, a pool, or the beach. She said No, she would not, because "she was autonomous". DH said that if she chose to do that again, he would choose to not take her to the activity. I guess there was no response and both kids had kind of an attitude when he dropped them off at Mom's after the activity.

DH talked again with SD15 the other day about what had happened. She talked a lot about "why can't you do things the way Mom and Stepdad do, we're all equals there and we just talk about things and discuss them as equals". DH talked about how there is a biological reality in their relationship in that he is the parent and she is the child, and he sees himself as having responsibilities in that role to love her, respect her, and guide her towards wise choices as she grows.

She agreed "on paper" with all of that but reiterated that if something DH told her to do didn't make sense to her, she was not going to do it.

After that, she "took a walk" -- to somewhere she knew Mom and Stepdad would be. We're guessing she unloaded all this to them. I'm assuming they affirmed her, because she came back in a good mood.

She dressed appropriately the next day but we are suspecting she is going to push it next time the activity comes up.

...

Things of concern:

-The immediate turn to Mom and Stepdad

-Saying she will refuse to follow instructions from DH

-there's not a lot that works for "currency" with her -- about all we have is the activity she does. She doesn't have a personal phone and doesn't really use electronics, and doesn't usually bring her computer to our place from Mom's. Losing allowance, screen time, treats, etc would not phase her. Banning reading and drawing would be almost impossible to enforce, and if the issue is she won't do something she is being told to do, then telling her to do something else (chores etc) as consequences would be equally hard to enforce.

-we have been way more lenient with clothes/makeup than I ever envisioned we would be... but to DH and I, it is a safety issue for SD15 to dress like that in these specific locations. If she is adamant she will not follow a safety instruction... I'm worried.

...

DH and I chatted a bit, and where we're at right now is to "fully support" her choices of clothing, and be willing to take her somewhere where she can wear what she wants -- i.e., if she would like to wear just her bra as a top, then we "fully support" taking her to the pool, the beach, or home. It's not OK with either of us that (a) that outfit be worn in a public park, especially in our city, and (b) that she not follow safety instructions and use "not agreeing with it" / "being autonomous" / "it not making sense to her" as valid excuses.

...

I think I am really tired and overwhelmed with this. It feels like a never-ending cycle, where for a few months it seems like maybe SD15 is seeing things a little more clearly, but then it whips back to total enmeshment with Mom/Stepdad. And conflicts that "should be" normal teen things turn into symbols of "which house is right and which house is wrong".

I'm really worried about the "we're all equals at Mom's house" statement. I guess the parentification is still going on. And, SD15 made a striking off-hand comment the other day. She has been doing another activity in the mornings, and gets a ride there from Mom or Stepdad. SD15 described it to me as "I get a ride from Stepdad while he drops the kids off at school". Kind of separating herself from SD13 and their brother at Mom's.

Because I don't think they're all equals at Mom's. SD15 can't see how she's being used to reflect the wonderful greatness of Mom and Stepdad -- she's not being elevated as an individual, she's being elevated as an object, to confirm how amazing, insightful, and psychologically sophisticated Mom/Stepdad's "parenting" is.

But she can't see that, and I told DH that she isn't developmentally able to see that. She HAS to believe that what Mom/Stepdad are doing is correct, healthy, and loving, because if she doesn't, then not just one, but two structures will crumble: one, that what they're doing is right, and two, that the way they have described her is right. If she starts to question their rightness, then she has to question her own self-image... "they always told me I was wise beyond my years, and that I was equal with them... but if they were wrong about one thing, were they wrong about me, too?" So I get that SD15 is stuck, in a way, and probably doesn't have the psychic strength to disentangle herself from them. And having one foot in each side is uncomfortable and, beyond that, unacceptable to Mom/Stepdad. I get all that... but...

I'm dreading the next activity day. I have no idea how SD15 will respond if/when we ask/tell her to dress appropriately. I am dreading that she won't get in the car to go back with us and just books it. I'm dreading that even if we don't take her, that she will go back to Mom's and tell them to take her. I'm dreading that it feels like there are no "brakes" on this, no therapists, no counselors, no third parties. I'm dreading that this escalates.

...

I did tell DH that there is a plus side -- SD15 didn't just tell him what he wanted to hear. So, if he talks with her again, he can tell her that he appreciates and values her honesty, and is grateful that she didn't tell him only what would make him happy.

DH also mentioned that she did acknowledge that "she can be too stubborn sometimes".

And, she can usually engage pretty rationally without shutting down. So, she might be able to have a discussion about the meta levels going on -- who decides whether something is a safety issue, is it possible that something is a safety issue even if someone doesn't see it, wouldn't that be the exact situation where outside perspective is really important, have you ever had a time where a situation seemed safe but it turned out it wasn't (n.b. yes she has), etc.

And, stuff like "is it your life rule to only do things you fully understand/that make sense to you"... do you fully understand how digestion works... do you fully understand how reading works... does gravity make sense to you... but you still live as though it operates...

she may be able to have discussions about that.

But the hurdle for her is that all of that can make sense... but it clashes with Mom/Stepdad's worldview that "boundaries are there to be broken"... "there aren't any real limitations on our lives"... "rules just stop you from having a fuller experience..." that kind of stuff.

So she will have to live in cognitive dissonance, at best, as long as she can't handle the rejection that will come from Mom/Stepdad when she doesn't agree with them any more.

...

any ideas on how else to approach this?

[GaGrl]

First, a question...

Was this her regular lingerie-type bra or a sports bra?

If a lingerie bra, one approach might be to get her to wear a sports bra for the activity. She certainly could wear an unbuttoned shirt over a sports bra and still be appropriate.

I have a difficult time figuring out how to position dress for teen girls. They shouldn't be made to feel responsible for male misbehavior. On the other hand...reality bites.

[kells76]

I'll have to ask DH. The way he described it, it was not just a "sporty" top, but there was a LOT of skin/cleavage showing. That's a good point that if it gets down to brass tacks, we could compromise there. Sure, you can wear a sports bra that way.

I have also run into that dichotomy with clothing.

Where, on the one hand, nobody should judge you or treat you a certain way based ONLY on how you dress.

And yet, at the same time, the way we dress sends a message, whether we intend it or not, and it takes wisdom to see the messages that might be unintentionally sent.

The way she dresses does not "make" someone harass her, and I cannot conclude based ONLY on how she dresses, what she wants or how she wants people to respond to her.

And yet, again at the same time, based on who is in those parks and how she dresses, she needs to know that even if she doesn't mean it, the way she dresses sends a message that she is open to certain kinds of attention.

If she were unaware that her outfit indicated an interest in a certain kind of attention, and then she was made aware of it, and was like, OMG, I had no idea, thank you for telling me, that wasn't what I wanted to communicate... that would be one thing.

Now that she is aware that that "look", in that context (not in other contexts), says something... the question is... is that what she means? And if not, I am stuck with how to progress. "No, I don't mean to communicate X, but yes, I will continue to wear something that sends a message X."

I guess the benefit of the doubt perspective would be -- I can't imagine you are saying you want attention based only on how your body looks. So, I respect you too much to drive you to be in a context where that is getting communicated.

Ultimately though, I am getting a sense that this isn't about the outfit... it's about -- can Dad tell her what to do? Especially if Mom/Stepdad say, no, he's bigoted, he's being patriarchal, we're the ones who really "get" that you're equal, Dad just wants to control you for no reason, you're safe to wear whatever you want wherever you want, he's just blaming the victim.

And that's where I think of the example of running with headphones on at night... if I were to do that, on the one hand, it "wouldn't be my fault" if I got attacked... that was not what I wanted, I wanted to run and listen to music. On the other hand, it's not like I don't know or wasn't informed that doing that would lower my awareness of my surroundings and make me an easier target. I'm not responsible for being attacked, I am responsible for choosing my level of situational awareness, and I wasn't ignorant or unable to make different choices.

I want her to be empowered... not in a "fake" way, where it's "I'm entitled to not follow safety directions and to do whatever I want, because if other people take advantage of me, it's their fault, it's not my fault".  I don't know if I'm getting close to what I feel in my heart... but it's something like, why would a culture push young people into risky, edge-of-the-cliff behavior just to prove that if they get hurt, it's not their fault? Why is that the dichotomy? Why the push towards risk, just to prove... something?

IDK... I guess there's a lot wrapped up in this for me.

But basically, it comes down to -- DH sees this as a safety issue in this particular context. SD15 either does not understand or does not agree that it is, and has said she will do what she wants, and is probably getting validated in that position by Mom/Stepdad.

I don't know what to do with that kind of commitment.

[kells76]

More thoughts:

Another thing SD15 mentioned when talking to DH was: "I do what Mom/Stepdad say because I trust them..." with the obvious implication left hanging.

So this whole "how SD15 dresses" thing isn't really about the clothes, but it's about something she hasn't worked through that is getting expressed in this conflict. And, bigger things that DH is worried about, that aren't just clothes, too.

...

I guess this whole time I've been assuming that SD15 is not trying to communicate through her outfit that she wants attention based on how she looks. But, maybe that isn't true. It could be that that is exactly what she wants, so it would be good to ask her that straight up.

There is probably room for compromise here. The challenge will be how DH can stay true to his values in compromise, and if SD15 is willing to give a little or will be more committed to "her way or the highway".

Interestingly, back when SD15 was 13 and said she was a boy, she wanted to buy a chest binder. Apparently she could "only" buy it from one web site which "only" took PayPal, and Mom "didn't have PayPal" but DH did. So she wanted DH to buy it for her. They had some long talks and DH did not buy it for her, but instead we cashed out all her allowance (it would've been enough) and sent it with her back to Mom's house. Her money, her call; Dad's money, Dad's call. She never ended up buying it. I suppose it was not possible for Mom to get PayPal? Though I suspect Mom also didn't want to go that route, but didn't want to say No to SD, and so set DH up as the bad guy.

I haven't "smelled" that degree of setup here, so IDK. But I do sense a lot of "you're right, Dad's wrong" stuff in the background, and I am feeling powerless against that.

[worriedStepmom]

I think you're on the right track of saying yes.

Yes, you can wear that ... at the beach. And if she wears it that way, drive her to a beach or pool instead of the activity.

Yes you can wear an exposed bra ... but let's find one that covers a little more.  And if you continue to wear the tiny bras, we'll take those away and replace them with sports bras.

Or yes, you can wear that at the park, but since it worries *me* (not you), then I'll go to the activity too and stay within a few feet to make sure I can protect you if need be.

You're going to have to play a version of "boundaries are for me, not you", since you can't force her to do things.  Natural consequences are going to be the key - things that are directly related to what's happening and not "extra" punishments.

[Notwendy]

I am sorry you are dealing with this.

I think this bra showing is some sort of fashion trend. I saw a show on Netflix where a teen was dressed like this and also on some Hollywood celebrities.

I understand where you and DH are coming from in terms of your values. However, she's out with friends at this event and when she's not with you it's hard to control what she wears.

I recall the middle school bathroom where the girls would go after getting off the school bus, put make up on and then roll their skirts at the waist to make them shorter. Surely they left home dressed the way their parents approved.

D15 will likely have her shirt buttoned in your presence, and then when out with friends unbutton it.

I also understand the concern about the "rules" at the mother's house. The "we are all equal" with a teen ager is ludicrous, but also teens seek autonomy and need to have this unrolled gradually over time. With their clothes and bodies, they want autonomy.

But I think they need boundaries as well, and you and your H are giving them that. I think the "my house my rules" is understandable. What D15 said is pretty typical. If there were not two households, she might have said " why can't you be like ___ parents? they let their kids do______. and the only answer to that is, I am not them.

I like the sports bra idea and you can try it, but I am not sure that is the fashion trend. It's hard to go against what the kids are wearing these days, even if it makes adults cringe.

[kells76]

Thanks. I'm feeling really overwhelmed lately, so it's hard to know if this is a big deal or just feels like a big deal.

DH added that SD15 also talked about how "she and Mom and Stepdad aren't limited by conventions of relationships" and how that "makes their relationship so much more than it would be". That really worries me.

I notice myself not wanting to be around the kids; i.e., not wanting to go home from work early or on time, because I have no idea what I'm going to walk into, and I don't feel like I have the bandwidth to handle it. I also find myself wanting to share these ideas with DH, but feeling like I'm under water or something, like I can't even handle bringing it up, or don't have the strength to.

I guess this thread is turning into what's going on with me instead of what's going on with the kids. It's felt like every month this whole past year there has been some new crisis or traumatic situation. Each time I try to just get through it and get on with life, but I've stuffed it every time, and I'm not doing well. Maybe if I were in a different place, this whole "what SD15 is wearing/saying" situation would be more do-able, but it doesn't feel that way. I notice that if I were more "me", I would be feeling really guilty about not supporting DH more with this, but I just feel kind of numb, like "oh, I guess if I were feeling stuff, that's how I'd feel".

Our MC commented that repeated unpredictable traumatic occurrences are probably reminding me of what it was like as a kid. He said that the child who needs taking care of is me, actually. But even in the session, I could feel myself shutting down and pulling away, like "oh, again, I guess if I were feeling stuff, I'd be crying right now".

I don't know. I feel like I should apologize for hijacking my own thread. I guess I needed to talk about how I really don't want to deal with more unpredictable emotional intensity, and because it's coming from the kids, that means I don't want to engage or be there. And again, I guess if I were feeling stuff, I'd feel guilty and obligated.

[worriedStepmom]

You are emotionally burnt out.  That's not a surprise.

What are you doing for self-care?

[kells76]

Reflecting on it, I think I do some things that on paper are self care, but the way I do them, sort of aren't? Running, dance, weeding the garden... but it's like I have a firewall up. I do those things, but recently I do them as a way to not think or I do them not mindfully. I have a belief that if I let go and let myself feel or do those things mindfully, then I will be overwhelmed with my grief/emotions, and that prospect seems unbearable, like I cannot do it, I won't... survive?
So, yeah, I do things that are typically self care (stretching out, reading, baking), but the way I do them, it's the same as everything else, I guess. And I see that, and I notice that, but I don't change anything.

[Notwendy]

Kells, for me, parenting has been a healing process. Parenting is a most wonderful thing to do and it can be a challenge too.

The process of adolescence is to form one's own identity. Teens don't know who they are- and their first thought is "not Mom. Not Dad" and they will push against that. Some more than others.

I think teens need a parent with a strong sense of self to withstand the "pushing" and parent with love and loving boundaries. To allow the teen to push to a point, and not react to it.

There were times when the teen years were tough for me. One was my fears. As a teen, I truly disliked my BPD mother. So when my teens got angry at me for setting (reasonable) boundaries " you can't go out on a school night" " But ___________'s mother lets her go out on school nights, you're a mean Mom" I was terrified that my kids would feel about me the way I felt about my BPD mother. However, I am not her and I don't have BPD and thankfully they did not.

The teen years may trigger our own trauma. The fear that our relationship would be like the one I have with my mother was one of them. Also, my own emotional gaps. I was parentified- had to be an emotional caretaker, and also not allowed to "push" to form my own self image due to how my mother would react. In some ways, I grew up emotionally with my teen age kids. There were times I was in tears. Yet overall, thankfully, they are good kids.

In terms of their identity- they may not dress how we like, wear their hair how we like, date someone we like. They are making their own way- our job is to have the boundaries that keep them as safe as possibly and stay out of some of their decisions. Maybe they dye their hair purple. It's their hair. It will grow out.

Take care of yourself and stay true to your own values. They are absorbing them. One thing you can demonstrate to them is being your authentic self. . I imagine your SD's mom is changing her persona along with the trends. You are who you are- and continue being true to yourself.

Getting past the teen years- once they do have some sense of who they are, they may then be more open to what you have taught them. They may ask your opinion on something. They may take on some things you have role modeled for them. You really don't know the sum of all the day to day interactions.

Take care of yourself- some things are not in your control.

[kells76]

I think that as much as I accept that what happens at Mom's house, for example, is out of our control, as is what the kids choose to be and do once they turn 18...
there's this time right now, where what the kids want is out of our control (which is fine), but what we do about what they want is in our control, and that's where the conflict comes from.
And knowing that parenting/stepparenting decisions will be undermined for the next 3-5 years, while the kids are teens... that is demoralizing.
If all the kids were doing was dying their hair purple, I'd be chill. And I don't want to give the wrong impression... it's not like the dress code is "bonnets and aprons" at our house. Generally speaking, if the kids are wearing clothes that cover their bodies, it's a go. SD13 wears fishnets, gay pride pins, platforms, animal ears, spike collars, and upside down cross facial makeup... all at the same time, yes... and we go out in public and do stuff together.
It feels like DH and I have really not given the kids a lot of pushback. I think it's about twice a year, max, for either of them, where DH "pulls rank" and says "that isn't getting worn".

In terms of their identity- they may not dress how we like, wear their hair how we like, date someone we like. They are making their own way- our job is to have the boundaries that keep them as safe as possibly and stay out of some of their decisions.

I guess it feels like DH and I have let so much be OK, in terms of music, clothes, food, religion, makeup, etc, that... IDK, there are so many areas where we are "over it" in terms of "well I don't like your choice in music" or "I don't like that you wear a shirt that has the F-word spelled out on it" or "I don't like you wearing heavy eyeliner when you're 11"... I get it, I get that they do things I don't like, I get that I do things they don't like...

I'm struggling with the outright refusal to follow instructions that are given maybe twice a year.

And I'm struggling with the fear that we're right back to "I don't like it here, I don't agree with you, you can't make me do this", where in the past, there'd be a demand "take me back to Mom's", but now, it'll just be "I'm walking back to Mom's and you can't stop me". I'm dreading that.

I'm dreading being back at home today, but I feel like I have to be there to support DH. I have fears that -- what if he can't handle it, what if he needs help, what if he is too overwhelmed, and I didn't help him.

I get afraid that if he gets overwhelmed, then I will need to step up and do more emotionally, and I am so depleted that I am afraid of being "asked" to do so. I feel like I have nothing more to give, but if he needs support, then I feel like I have to. And when I "step up" when I am burnt out, I get numb afterwards. I'm already there.

And he texted earlier to say he was feeling anxious about today. So I did text him some of the ideas from here. I just deeply don't want to deal with anything.

[Notwendy]

Kells,
I am going to do some wild guessing here, based on my readings, but if it fits, maybe consider it.

In my readings, I learned that couples "match" each othemr in their dysfunction. Not the same dysfunction but a pairing. Someone with BPD, or addiction issues is likely to pair with an enabler/co-dependent. It may not even be the full diagnosis, but the tendencies that make the match. Some may even not be dysfunctional and be a comfortable pairing. The way to tell if it's this or not is how we feel.

I did this sort of backwards thinking in my own relationships. I became the one who overfunctioned to manage other people's emotions. I was raised to do that, and so I "paired" up with someone who somehow responds well to this. But what seemed to happen was a repeat of some of the dynamics in my parent's marriage and I felt stressed, emotionally drained, and emotionally burned out. All this without a formal diagnosis on anyone else but my own observation of the patterns between us and my emotional state.

They say if we leave a dysfunctional relationship without self examination of our part in this, we risk repeating dysfunction in the next relationship, maybe in a different way but still dysfunction.

I don't know where you came along in your H's relationship with his ex, whether or not it was soon after, or if he did the work on his part of it. In all your posts, the ex and her H are the problem. But your H was paired with her - he has to have his own stuff, and you do too. We all do. It would be fine to have a comfortable shared pairing with two people each contributing their skills. Such as an extrovert marrying an introvert. The extrovert may do most of the talking. But if they are happy together, so what? But if the extrovert feels drained or resentful, there's an issue. Not a huge marriage breaking issue, but something to work on.

Your H may have swung 180 from choosing someone with BPD who is the recipient of the emotional work, to someone who is doing more than their share of emotional work.

I am guessing here, but if your H is anxious about his parenting- he needs to become a more confident parent- maybe take some parenting classes. If you are taking on his anxiety and trying to ease it by overfunctioning as a parent, to where you are not taking care of your own needs, something is out of balance.

The teens may rebel. They may even rebel against the best parent in the world. You can only do your best with them. Maybe they won't want to visit and prefer more permissive mom. I'd be willing to bet that will be short lived. Their mom may not be able to handle them being there all the time, and it sure makes any romantic alone time for them a challenge. SD may begin to resent it. You don't know the consequences of their choices. You can do your best to make your home a place of love according to your values. However, you can not undo all they experience at their mother's home.

IMHO it appears that DH may be putting too much on your plate. I think it makes sense- teen girls are probably more of a dilemma to a man than a woman. At least you can recall your teen years and deal with things like bras, and periods. But maybe he needs to have more one on one Dad time with them and you get some of the stress off you?

[kells76]

I guess when you look at the family trees and family history it makes sense. Note I am mostly listing negative issues, not positives or neutrals. So this is not the whole picture, but just to call out some matching patterns.

Me:
Mom's side:
Mom's mom: her mom died when she was a kid, dad worked a lot as a doctor, her dad remarried but stepmom didn't like her, I think she was sent away to boarding school on her own, but her half sibling got to live at home. Married my mom's dad, unhappy marriage, smoked a lot. Asked my mom, when my mom was a kid, "do you think I should get a divorce".
Mom's dad: sexually abused my mom and my sister, narcissist, never acknowledged what he did, seen as "pillar of the community" by friends and some family members
Mom: also abused by neighbor, not in counseling until I was at least 6? I have a lot of memories of her being asleep during the day, or not around. More memories of doing stuff with Dad when I was a kid. She sometimes either yelled at me or got quiet but mad for things that, now that I look back, were not a big deal.

Dad's side:
Dad's mom: black/white thinking, you're either a wonderful person or despicable, won't let go of a grudge, prioritizes her feelings/comfort over others.
Dad's dad: highly responsible, not very outwardly affectionate (at least when I was younger, this has changed), does it "by the book", "doing the right thing" is really important, own needs not as important. His grandpas on both sides were physically abusive to his parents.
Dad: doesn't really talk about feelings, wants us kids as adults to "help Mom feel better", tries to manage our relationships with Mom, doesn't accept criticism of how family was when we were kids, "it's mom's dad's fault why she struggles"
trend on Dad's side is "we don't talk about it, it's private business"

DH:
Mom's side:
Mom's mom: remarried after first husband died, second husband was physically abusive to her and the 4 daughters (DH's mom and 3 sisters), 3rd husband not physically abusive but financially irresponsible. She is stoic and just "bears it".
Mom's dad: died in an accident when she was a teen
Mom: single mom to DH and sister for a while after divorcing DH's dad, DH and sister typically unsupervised at young age while she worked, remarried but divorced DH's 1st stepdad after a couple of years, remarried when DH was 15 and quickly had 3 kids, strict fundamentalist child raising for ~5-10 years but mellowed out later, current husband tends to defend DH's mom from criticism, but the two of them also butt heads, often in public. Trend on Mom's side is towards "everything is everyone's business out in the open". She and DH would argue a lot when DH was in his teens, she kicked him out right when he turned 18.
Siblings: full sister is likely BPD and has accused him and his mom of abuse, one half sister has BPD traits (and still spends time with DH's kids' mom), other two half sisters non-PD, one has panic attacks/is people pleaser

Dad: divorced DH's mom when DH was ~6, DH would see him only in summertime as Mom moved him/sis across country. Possibly autistic/on spectrum, unhappy second marriage that he often complains about to DH

...

DH was coming out of a FOO where "you're the problem, you're the scapegoat, and everyone's business is everyone else's business", and somebody's mom had a parent who died when the mom was a child.

His first marriage matched that. DH was the problem, DH got blamed, and there was no concept that it wasn't healthy to have DH's then-best friend step into their relationship and "help"... which ended with him marrying DH's ex right away.

I'm coming out of a FOO where I could escape feeling like the problem if I got really quiet and didn't talk about anything, we didn't talk about family problems (on either side) and so had no context to see that there were issues. I felt responsibility (again, tacit, not explicit) to make sure Mom felt OK (because if I didn't take care of her, she couldn't take care of me), and "you should be responsible and do the right thing". Also a FOO where a mom (my grandma) had a parent who died when she was a child. Also, my mom's mom died when I was 8 months old. Interestingly, my grandpa (dad's dad, not mom's dad) just told me that he remembers being in the hospital when my mom's mom was sick, and he was holding baby me, and I was crying and crying. I told him it was nothing personal... and it wasn't... it's just another piece of the puzzle. Mom was probably emotionally unavailable to baby me, if she was grieving her own mom dying.

...

So, yes, Notwendy, I think the match for DH at first was the "blamer/scapegoat" model that would have felt familiar to DH based on growing up with his mom. Ex would blame him, and he was the problem, and that was "how it was". But now, the model is perhaps more driven by my FOO dynamics? At least, from my perspective. My belief is that I need to take care of him and how he feels, because if I don't, then he will fall apart... and he will not have any resources available to care for me. Taking care of him involves not telling him things that could stress him out or make him anxious, and those things involve my feelings, concerns, things that bother me, etc. I stuff it all and then my model is to "be responsible" and "keep going" and "do the right thing" and "take care of others". The model would then be "overfunctioner/..." (not sure what the other side is -- anxious, maybe?)

I think the view that "DH has anxiety about parenting" is maybe 75% driven by me and my fears, and 25% DH's actual feelings. It is tied to the strong message that I am wired with, that I need to take care of others' feelings in order to survive. So DH is not necessarily putting the work on my plate, as much as I am taking it in order to manage my feelings and feel like I will be cared for. He does a pretty good job of doing 1x1 time with them on our weekends, and in fact, does all the pick ups (because I'm at work) and drop offs. When I do a reality check of the time he vs I spend with the kids, it is not particularly imbalanced, I don't think.

DH would actually like me to do less with them in terms of helping with math. He sees it as me being more drawn into the chaos of their mom's house than I need to be, and also taking on excess responsibilities. I didn't physically go over there but I would do phone or zoom with the kids 1x1 almost every weekday. Thankfully, school is done for SD13 for the year. SD15 wants to keep doing some math over the summer, and DH would like for me to not do that.

...

So there is another feeling woven in there -- the feeling that "if I'm not there or not involved, DH might not do it right" (in terms of being validating to the kids, staying calm, coming up with solutions, etc). That is a mix of FOO feelings of "I need to/am capable of doing it right", and then the childhood feelings of the pain of not being validated or having how I felt be noticed or important.

The mix is, then:
I feel a compulsion to "help" with conflicts related to the kids, because:

-if I don't help DH, then I believe he will be overwhelmed, and then not available to care about me
-if I don't help DH, he might not "do it right", and it is important to be responsible as a parent and try to "do the right thing"
-if I don't help the kids, they will feel invalidated, alone, forgotten, and hurt

...

If you are taking on his anxiety and trying to ease it by overfunctioning as a parent, to where you are not taking care of your own needs, something is out of balance.

I think by trying to ease his anxiety, I'm really trying to ease mine. I'm trying to take care of my needs by making sure he is taken care of, so he can care for me.

As I type that, I see that it is the same message I believed as a child, and back then it was true.

I can type all this sort of calmly now, and I see it and it all makes sense. It's not like I disagree with any of it.

But I still feel so, so stuck. It's been months of me stuffing feelings, and I either don't know how to come back, or don't want to know. It feels so much safer to have any vulnerable feelings hidden away deep, deep down. I know they are there, but I don't feel them as I talk about them now.

[kells76]

I don't know where you came along in your H's relationship with his ex, whether or not it was soon after, or if he did the work on his part of it. In all your posts, the ex and her H are the problem. But your H was paired with her - he has to have his own stuff, and you do too. We all do. It would be fine to have a comfortable shared pairing with two people each contributing their skills. Such as an extrovert marrying an introvert. The extrovert may do most of the talking. But if they are happy together, so what? But if the extrovert feels drained or resentful, there's an issue. Not a huge marriage breaking issue, but something to work on.

I think it gets complicated when an issue with the kids (i.e., SD15 saying "I'm autonomous, you can't make me follow your instructions, and it's better at Mom's where we are all equals and don't follow restrictive parent child relationship conventions") is tied into both the problems from Mom/Stepdad (parentifying the child but making it palatable by elevating her in the family system) and the relationship dynamic between DH and I (I need to solve this issue for him).

Sometimes it is just dealing with Mom/Stepdad's dysfunction, independently. Sometimes it is just problem solving an issue with the kids, independently. But something about this latest issue ties the three areas together -- the typical teen/parent conflict is tied to both inappropriate parenting by Mom/Stepdad and tied to my fears and the dynamic between DH and I.

I do bring up the problems with Mom/Stepdad here, and I also acknowledge what you're saying, that that is not the only thing going on. This particular instance is just kind of messy and a lot of things are tied together.

[kells76]

Forgot one more FOO/family tree thing. DH was also sexually abused as a child. So the dynamic of caring for a victim of abuse was already familiar to me, and then felt familiar to me, when we met.

[Notwendy]

Kells, there is a lot of abuse and abandonment in both your FOO's and also your parentification- if you don't take care of everyone things will fall apart.

One does not have to specifically have a family member with BPD to have dysfunctional dynamics. They are similar patterns with a variety of issues, including alcohol and drug addiction. This is why ACA and 12 step codependency groups have been helpful to me even though someone with substance abuse isn't the main reason- it's that the dysfunctional patterns are similar. It also carries through generations- you can see where your grandmother also had to be overly responsible when she was young.

How did I match my H? He isn't like my mother, but we had some similar patterns and issues that I saw in my parents. I was used to being blamed for the issues with my mother, so when he blamed me for our issues, it was easy to accept this. So, just like I did growing up, I tried harder and harder to make thing right. I also avoided asking him to do things and took on a lot because it would result in him being angry and that scared me. Also he worked very hard at his job and I assumed it was my job to ease his burdens- not telling him things that might make him angry or stressed. You may see we have some common behaviors and fears, even if our FOO issues and relationships are different. It's the patterns we took into our relationships that play a part in them.

How did my H match me? He does not have a mother with BPD. At first glance I thought she was a self sacrificing saint. In actuality she's codependent and controlling. Dad had a temper and verbally abusive streak but she kept Dad under control with her caretaking. This was my H's role model. Mom managed the emotions in the home and so this was expected. The other way they saw emotions was Dad's verbal criticism.

Co dependency was the norm in both our FOO's.

We really can't fix someone else's emotional trauma and behavioral patterns. We have to work on our own. People resist the term "co-dependent" because it sounds like "dependent" and some co-dependent people are very self sufficient and can take care of themselves quite well. The issue is that somehow they are emotionally driven to overdo it taking care of other people, while not attending to their own needs. It doesn't mean the same as altruistic or being a good parent, it's more of an emotional need driven by emotions. One of the tasks of my work on codependency was identifying those emotions that drive the behaviors, and a huge one that is very common is fear.

It's right here Kells: I think the view that "DH has anxiety about parenting" is maybe 75% driven by me and my fears, and 25% DH's actual feelings. It is tied to the strong message that I am wired with, that I need to take care of others' feelings in order to survive.




You really got at the heart of it. This is a fear you acquired somewhere along the way and it served you well in your FOO, but now in your marriage, it's causing you to take on so much that it is wearing you down emotionally. I think the key to change is to address this fear, and the patterns that drive you to do too much.

Sometimes our children trigger some trauma for us. Sometimes our partners or other people do. It's uncomfortable feeling emotionally set off- but think of it as a learning opportunity. A chance to think about how we feel and why and to work on that.

I say this because I had to do the work ( counseling, 12 step groups but you do- whatever works for you) and this has made all the difference. The people around me have not changed, but being less fearful has changed how I react to them.  I think some self care is in order here- and some support  to help work on looking at your patterns and how to change them.