Situation Escalated: CPS Called

[Guts42]

I received a call yesterday from CPS.
They were calling about my wife.
The very nice agent said this wasn't a traditional call... no idea what that means.
She explained that they've been notified about some potentially inappropriate/extremely stressful parenting methods between my wife and "the kiddos."  She said that this isn't a formal investigation and that there won't be a "determination."

I'm still shaking.
My only guess is that one of the kid's therapist felt obligated to report my wife's behavior based on some of the recordings I've captured.   I just wanted her to know what the kids are dealing with since they've been instructed to not really reveal much to anyone (including me and their therapists).  I was also hoping that maybe upon hearing what goes kn here she would say "oh that's not so bad!  You're over reacting!"  but instead one of the therapists got teary and said, "I'm sorry... this is abuse.  You can hear it in your wife's voice... something isn't right."  She offered to call CPS for me but I asked her to wait until I've had a chance to line up a few things.

I asked the agent if I could call her back tomorrow (now today).  She said of course.

When my wife hears "CPS" she's going to flip out.  Her biggest fear (next to being "locked up" at inpatient care) is the kids being taken away from her.  From my brief conversation with the agent I don't think that's what's going on here... the agent said they just want to do an informal get together to talk about things and see how they can help.

I'm calling her back in a few hours.
Should I divulge that I've called a few different abuse hotlines and am waiting for a case manager to call me back?

Anyone have any experience with CPS?

[GaGrl]

I have no experience with CPS, so I'll let others weigh in on that.

I agree that it is most likely that the therapist, as a required reporter, was the person calling CPS.  In reflecting on the session with you, she probably made the decision that she could not wait on your actions in light of her professional obligations.

You have to take this as seriously as possible. And you need to be completely honest -- to include that you have had conversations with the DV group and are awaiting a caseworker.

Shining light on your family situation means no more secrets.

[Notwendy]

I don't have personal experience with them, but from the child's perspective, I would urge you to please let them do their job.

This is emotional abuse and this can bring things into light. It may also help you with any custody arrangements in the future should you decide to not stay in the marriage.

This will trigger the Triangle. Your wife will take victim position and expect you to step in and rescue her. Please do not do this.

This situation is exactly what the natural consequences of behavior are. When someone enables and rescues from the natural consequences, they continue to enable the behavior and keep the person from learning from it.

Stay neutral  but supportive of her feelings. Validate emotions- "yes honey, I understand this is upsetting" but don't rescue, don't cover it up. Let them do their job.

A report can be made by anyone. CPS will then need to investigate.

Your wife will probably lie to them with their questions. Although nothing may come out of this, they are obligated to investigate and file a report. The report will then be on record. This may be helpful in the future if there are more reports.

[Ozzie101]

I have no experience with CPS either, but I do have experience in government agency investigatory work. I would echo that it is important that you be honest and cooperative. That will be to your children’s benefit, for a number of reasons.

Nothing may happen from this, that’s true. But if something were to come of it in the future, or if a custody situation eventually came up, you want to be on record as open, caring, stable and cooperative. We react to people and businesses that lie or cover things up (even innocent parties who are trying to protect others) VERY differently from those that are upfront.

I’m sure that phone call knocked you for a loop. Just keep in mind, the agency and the person who reported are all doing this because they care about your children and want to be sure they’re ok. You all have the same goal.

[Skip]

She said that this isn't a formal investigation and that there won't be a "determination."

Sounds like they don't have the basis to open an investigation, but they are coming out to coach and seek voluntary agreement to do things a bit differently. Don't be surprised if that coaching is aimed at both of you. They probably don't want to take sides and polarize the situation further.

When my wife hears "CPS" she's going to flip out.

Anyone would. You did, also. But yes, I get your point that it will be disproportionate.

I'd do my best to position it was a wake up call for the two for you are parents. Something to heed and avoid a real problem, not to discount and ignore.

I'm calling her back in a few hours.
Should I divulge that I've called a few different abuse hotlines and am waiting for a case manager to call me back?

I think if you say that you have been seeking help via the therapists and a help line and participating in a support group - that is all good. I'd stay away from anything that sounds like blame / punishment / retribution. Stay solution oriented and open to constructive criticism - even encourage it.

[kells76]

I think if you say that you have been seeking help via the therapists and a help line and participating in a support group - that is all good. I'd stay away from anything that sounds like blame / punishment / retribution. Stay solution oriented and open to constructive criticism - even encourage it.

Agreed. Focus on "wanting it to be better for the kids". Describe the ways you've been trying to be a better dad: "I've been taking the kids to mental health professionals, seeking peer support, and I did call a hotline the other day. What else could I be doing to help them?"

There are ways to describe concerns about your W's behaviors without it being blame-y or accusatory. Now is a great time to review that Craig Childress doc on "jiu-jitsu parenting". Consider talking about what the kids are exposed to: "I'm concerned about the level of anger the kids are exposed to" versus "my wife yells at me all the time in front of the kids". #2 is true though perhaps not effective in this context.

Keep your focus 110% on "how can I help our kids, what do they need from me, I'm concerned about their health, what do you recommend I do".

As Notwendy says, it's no time for secrets when your kids' well-being is at stake. You can be open about your kids' experience without coming across as a finger-pointer. It's OK to talk about the reality of "what they are exposed to at home". Ask for help. We're here for you.

You got this. It will be OK.

[Guts42]

Thanks all.  The conversation was very good.
It's not an official investigation.

I presented it as "I've reached out to these services because I'm concerned about the effects of the situation at home on the kids.  I've expressed my concerns to their therapists as well.  I really could use some help here and I don't know what to do.  I love my wife and kids very much and I just want things to get better."

[kells76]

    

[Ventak]

It's a little confusing to me that it is not an "official" investigation, that is not how it generally works.  I suppose it is possible that one of the therapists has a great relationship with someone at DHS and they decided to keep it off the record but scare you both straight.  I, personally, would be very suspicious of this presentation as it might be a way to keep you off guard and more forthright.

Unfortunately I have all too much experience with DHS/CPS.  My second case was just closed this week after being open for 3.5 months.  Reading through the report was an eye opening experience, and ultimately the only reason I still have the children (as opposed to foster care) is because I got a restraining order and the agent believes that we will both honor it.

The biggest mistake I made appears to be focusing on my wife's medical condition and behavior instead of just the impact of the children.  She generally did not care that my wife was completely out of her mind for 25 minutes and attacked me repeatedly as I tried to calm her down... because it didn't happen in front of the children.  She was concerned that I locked myself and our children in a room to prevent my BPDw's threat to take them out of state, possibly out of country.  She wasn't concerned about her threats, but about my response... which was labelled "fighting in front of the children".

I, too, thought the conversation was very good...  please be careful.  Be completely transparent, the agent found that very refreshing.  But don't sidetrack on negative aspects of your wife, focus only on specific behaviors in front of the children.

And be prepared to hear about the most outrageous accusations about your personal behavior, especially in front of the children.

Happy to answer any questions.

[formflier]

I do have experience with CPS.  I called them in/made the report.  It was a blunt instrument, but it was effective in creating massive change.  We both voluntarily signed a paper agreeing to "comply" with them.  (it's a bit of a longer story, but I don't thing it's relevant to your situation)

I would "invite" them in on a "voluntary" basis, because of course you want to be the best parents possible.

You want oversight.  You want many eyes peering into the situation.  

When she expresses concern (which of course she will), you can agree and validate that it is concerning and that you both will do your best to "improve" your skills.

Stay away from judgmental and bad terms (if possible)

I've also had therapist make reports based on behavior.

While I wish it could have been done a different way, given the skills I had and situation at the time I find it hard to imagine "something else" working.


Best,

FF

[mart555]

When my wife hears "CPS" she's going to flip out.  Her biggest fear (next to being "locked up" at inpatient care) is the kids being taken away from her.

Sounds like it's your wife's problem.  Might be time for her to face the consequences of her actions.   Kids first. Remember that your wife would likely not hesitate to throw you under the bus.

FWIW, CPS helped me quite a bit, it kept my ex on a leash for a while and I got a letter from them saying that they were closing the file because I was protective of the children and would make sure they are safe.  .

[ForeverDad]

When my wife hears "CPS" she's going to flip out.  Her biggest fear (next to being "locked up" at inpatient care) is the kids being taken away from her.

Sounds like it's your wife's problem.  Might be time for her to face the consequences of her actions.  Kids first.  Remember that your wife would likely not hesitate to throw you under the bus.

Her fear that the kids will be taken from her is obvious.  Equally obvious is that she will blame you.  In a sense, she's living a self-fulfilling prophecy — she fears it but yet is proceeding on a direct path for that fear to become reality.  It has been a slow motion train wreck for years but now it's approaching impact.

Here's my post from my own separation sequence of events.  Notice that the police officer frankly told me that shrinking back to avoid the issue would come back to bite me later.  I had to proceed or else I'd be in an even worse situation later.  No turning back.  Seize the opportunity to Move Forward.

This may be a stepping stone to finally getting a handle on your parenting.  Your parenting is being obstructed now by her intensely emotional demands and ultimatums.  Frankly, this was going to happen sooner or later, better to do it that right way than for her to continue wearing you down with endless baseless conflict.

Your kids are suffering too.  Your kids need some distance from all this chaos and discord.  Can I say "frankly" again?  It sounds like halfway measures will be insufficient.  Maybe CPS can step in and set limits to the discord.  However, they may not do enough to enforce solutions.  Face that reality, do you have a capable family law attorney yet?  You should already have one so you can avoid delays and predictable obstructions to getting a workable temporary order for custody and parenting schedule.

Long term, a good outcome for the children will be for them to have limited contact with their mother.  Long term, your marriage is too dysfunctional and too unhealthy for it to continue.  The agencies may be waiting for you to face the music and take appropriate action.  They can't force the end of a marriage, only you have the power to do that.  As a thought and next step, only you can state the two parents must be live apart, maybe a "trial separation" with the kids remaining in your home while having limited contact and brief visits with mom.  (Yeah, good luck with that... but this is where CPS and therapists can support you.)

Short term, there will be lots of ups and downs to come.  Do not overreact to her predictable allegations to shift blame from herself.  Do not shrink back either, just behave as though the court and services system is always looking over your shoulder.  She is the victim?  Then why is she so aggressive?

No more apologies.  Time too to stop that.  That's called a Boundary.  Apologize only once and only when truly merited if you don't want to give her an excuse to pounce on your endless apologies as basis for her to make predictable allegations and more emotional attacks.

Search our posts or elsewhere on "extinction bursts".  This is where the attacks increase in an attempt to intimidate you into retreating from better boundaries.

My police were helpful but not at first.  When I called 911 they rushed over and interviewed us separately.  I was asked by one of the officers to hand our sobbing preschooler over to his mother and "step away".  I didn't realize it at the time, not until months later when my divorce attorney told me, but my state is one where an arrest is required at a DV call.  You don't have to ask whether they cart off the man or the woman.   But my son 'saved' me that day.  He shrieked and clung tighter to me when I tried to hand him over.  What child won't go to his mother?   The officer looked at me for a long moment, said "work it out" and they left.  Only later did my ex tell me, gloating, that they gave her a DV resources handout.  I sure didn't get one.

I downloaded my audio file - yes, I had my emergency services call recorded, with her threats both before and after - and this time a different officer came and listened.  He immediately told me to write a statement and they would take care of it.  (Clearly, having actual proof of the threats was much better than the previous unsupported "he-said, she-said".)  He also firmly told me not to drop the complaint or else it would definitely be worse next time.  He was very informed and supportive.  And yes I finally got that DV handout.  Of course, no one on the list wanted to help a man, but that's another story.

So in my case there were certain procedures that had to be followed.  Men don't get the automatic benefit of the doubt.  Some officials were more helpful than others.  Eventually she went to trial but the judge ruled she wasn't guilty and dismissed the case, stating case law modified the written law to include only "imminent" threats of DV.  Without a weapon in her hands he said her death threats weren't imminent or 'actionable'.  Maybe she was acquitted because she was a woman.  Maybe because it was her first time in court.  Maybe both.  Anyway, she walked out without any legal consequences - though I had temp possession of the house during the case and she never returned - and the acquittal surely fed her sense of entitlement.

In summary, some professionals among those you meet will be helpful, just don't expect them to go out of their way too much to help.  Often they will figure both people share the fault but women get more consideration or protection.  Try to be as squeaky clean as you can be.  Your goal is to get them to see that this incident will never repeat again.  They may be more inclined to help someone who learns from the experience.  They're frustrated having to deal with repeat or revolving door litigants.  If you can get the message across that you understand the relationship has to end as peacefully as possible, then the more they might be willing to help you make a less unsafe exit.

Can you accept that the relationship is ended?  Not just with your head but your heart too?  You can't risk going back, not when there is a heightened risk of future allegations.  "If it's been contemplated or threatened, it is more likely to happen (again)."

[GaGrl]

Do you have backups of recordings and other documentation where she can't get to it?

[Guts42]

Do you have backups of recordings and other documentation where she can't get to it?

In triplicate.
Not sure how much I should bring?
Should I print out some journal entries and have some recordings ready to share?
I don't want this to come out like I'm on a witch hunt.  I just want to take advantage of this situation to start a change.  Things can't keep going this way.

Apparently what we're currently in is a "differential response."

[kells76]

Not sure how much I should bring?

Is there an in person meeting happening?

Should I print out some journal entries and have some recordings ready to share?

Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

If they don't specifically ask you for documentation, consider asking them something like "hey, what kinds of documentation should I be keeping, what would you want me to do, if I had some emails or recordings, would now be the time to share those"

I don't want this to come out like I'm on a witch hunt.  I just want to take advantage of this situation to start a change.  Things can't keep going this way.

Yes. Your kids need something different in order to be healthy. This could be one path towards that.

You can always pivot back to "what can I do to protect them better, what would you recommend I work on, is there anything you see that they need from me that I'm not doing, I'll do whatever it takes to protect them". Keep the focus on (a) kids' safety first, (b) you are open to "criticism"/feedback in the interests of protecting your children, and (c) if there is followup, you have stuck to the plan and executed on specific changes they requested. That might be where your documentation is an extra layer of safety for you -- it could be a record of how you do what they ask.

What will sadly become clear is that your wife may not be able to do (b) and (c), and I suspect CPS will notice the difference between you two, without you having to "go on a witch hunt" or "blame" her or "point fingers" at her behavior.

Having neutral third party professionals observe how you and your W deal with specific instructions to change your parenting will be a huge part of any change that will come out of all this.

It will happen, and they will see it, as long as you put your kids' needs first, and don't try to "cover up" for W or "explain" for her or make excuses for her. She's an adult, her words and actions will speak for her. Let your words and, more importantly, actions and changes, speak for you.

You can do it!

[Ventak]

In triplicate.
Not sure how much I should bring?
Should I print out some journal entries and have some recordings ready to share?
I don't want this to come out like I'm on a witch hunt.  I just want to take advantage of this situation to start a change.  Things can't keep going this way.

Apparently what we're currently in is a "differential response."

On what to bring... I'll remind you that DHS is only interested in matters pertaining to neglect/abuse of the children.  Divorce court might want to see how she is abusive to you... but DHS role is not to protect you, only the children.  And you may be held accountable for her actions if you know that she is abusive and do not take steps to protect them.  I had two attorneys tell me this, which is why I went for restraining orders twice.  Having read my report yesterday, those RO's were the only thing that kept my children out of foster care.

Because I took the advice of members of this community, I retained an attorney.

Because I retained an attorney, I received temporary sole custody of my children and kept them out of foster care.

My first RO failed, because I presented my own case.  My second one succeeded, because of my attorney.  Please do not underestimate how critical this is to your successful outcome.  It cost me money I really couldn't afford to spend... but I am so grateful to FF, Kells, and others for helping get it through my thick skull that it was important.

[Ventak]

Apparently what we're currently in is a "differential response."

I just read up on differential response, great idea... wish my state were one of the 20 or so that support this.  It sounds a bit like an early intervention program.  I know in my case our case was closed even though the agent seemed to want to do more.  Had my state had this program I'm positive they would have been able to "strongly recommend" certain actions instead of "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" advice.  Actions I could have used as boundaries.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.  The twins and I will add you and your family to our evening prayer tonight.

[Guts42]

Is there an in person meeting happening?

Yup.  Forgot to mention.  The agent wants to meet me and the kids at the Aunts house.

[Ventak]

Yup.  Forgot to mention.  The agent wants to meet me and the kids at the Aunts house.

Interesting... is she doing the same 1:x with BPDw and children, but not you?

[Guts42]

Nope, at least not yet.
The plan is for her to meet with me and the kids and then decide from there.  She said that since the "inquiry" is about my W behavior and how it affects the children she wants to talk to them first and then maybe meet my W in person at home with everyone.

[I Am Redeemed]

Yup.  Forgot to mention.  The agent wants to meet me and the kids at the Aunts house.

The absence of your wife in this meeting leads me to think that the CPS worker knows that the issues stem from your wife's behavior. It's likely the social worker will be doing an assessment on your family to determine what services or supports should be in place to assist you with mitigating the impact of your wife's emotional and verbal abuse on the children.

A "traditional" call and "official" investigation focuses on physical abuse or physical/emotional neglect and threat to safety.

As Ventak mentioned, children can be removed from both parents if domestic violence is present in the home and one parent does not take steps to end the children's exposure to it.

This happened to me. I lost custody of my oldest kids because CPS did not get their facts straight and received information that there was an active protective order against my ubpdh (there wasn't). In the end, it did not matter; once they were in foster care, it was an uphill battle to get them back (which I am still fighting eight years later).

Emotional abuse is not as "high risk" to CPS. That is why you are termed a 'differential response". It's urgent, but not an emergency. They likely want to do an assessment and see if they can construct an action plan to mitigate the impact on your kids, and also prevent the situation from escalating into more serious types of abuse. Consider this as a "yellow flag" situation for CPS and they want to make sure it doesn't turn into a situation where the children are in danger of being seriously harmed.

If I were you, I would consult with a family attorney just to get advice on what your next steps should be if this should escalate and you actually find yourself in a place where CPS may take further, more "official" actions in the future.

[Guts42]

I Am Redeemed, that's almost exactly what the agent said.  She said we can go over various resources and plans.

Serious but not an immediate risk.
Yellow flag is a perfect way to describe it.

I just downloaded the newest edition of "Splitting."  Going through it now.

[Ventak]

Serious but not an immediate risk.
Yellow flag is a perfect way to describe it.

Please always keep in mind that they are not there to help you.  They are there to protect your children.  Even though you have the same goals, this is not necessarily the same thing and it is an important distinction.  They may well decide that you are Super Dad, with impeccable credentials... but that will not necessarily be their assumption going in.

I highly recommend that you at least do a one hour consult with a family law attorney in your area that is familiar with DHS in your county.  It is a slippery slope, and I didn't realize how close my family was to slipping all the way in until it was over and I could read the report.

[GaGrl]

How will you get the children over to the aunt's house without your wife?

I predict she will have an extinction burst.I

Recordings during this period are crucial.

[Turkish]

To reiterate a few things others have said...

CPS or DHS are not there to represent parents, but to advocate for the children. I would not also believe that this isn't "official," and that notes aren't being written down in a case file.

Due to truancy, CPS was involved with me and my mom in 8th grade when I was 13. That was a good experience and it got me back into school after my mom had removed me for about four months.

When I called the cops after I suspected that then D2 (now 9) might have been molested by her 17 year old uncle, the CPS case worker talked to both me and her mother to close the case and make sure that we were keeping her safe. I thought that it might be better to go visit the office to talk on person, human to human. It went well until the end when I cringed from an arctic threat, "I'm closing the case for now, but I can easily reopen it and we can take your children if we feel that you aren't keeping them safe." I thought, "wait, I was the one who called to expose this!" No matter.

I did understand the point, and I heard from multiple, credible sources that exposing kids to DV could be considered a crime.

So be honest, appreciate the help and that some things have been exposed to the light. It's hard to know how to proceed when you're on the situation. I chickened out and left a message for my therapist about what D2 said about being touched. I loved the uncle like a little brother and couldn't wrap my head around what D, barely 2, was saying. I saw nothing amiss. I reported the next day, the kids were with me. The T said, "you call, or I will have to."

A few years later, when my ex punched her husband hard in front of the kids, I took a similar tack (after confirming he had left even though she was a worse aggressor) and said, "tell your therapist tomorrow, and tell D's therapist the following day [we had an appointment related to the molestation] , or I'll have to call CPS myself."

Even living separately, if you know kids are exposed to abuse or DV, it needs to be reported.

It will be better for you and the kids on the long run. Yet don't forget that the authorities are advocating for the kids,  #1.

[Skip]

Please always keep in mind that they are not there to help you.  They are there to protect your children.  Even though you have the same goals, this is not necessarily the same thing and it is an important distinction.

Really important point.

I highly recommend that you at least do a one hour consult with a family law attorney in your area that is familiar with DHS in your county.  

Good advice.

Lot's of good points and good advice in this thread, overall.

[formflier]

I can't imagine that they would NOT do a similar interview with your wife and likely also an interview together.  I say this to lessen the need to "create a ruse" to get kids over to the aunt's house.

I DO think that recordings are crucial.  I used an app on my phone that could directly upload to google drive (the cloud).  What do DO NOT want is these recording tied to a physical thing that can be destroyed/tossed/taken.

For instance:  I had a recording of my wife telling my kids what to say, or else they would be "taken away".  My wife denied saying this, presented well and I think it was a powerful "ah haa" moment and "outsiders sorted out the dysfunction"

Note:  They will "find stuff" on you.  They just will.  They did have stuff for me to change.  The critical difference is someone embracing change/improvement and someone running and blaming others   (remember that..it will serve you well)

My habit was to record lots of stuff and then if something happened I would rename the file with a keyword for later search such as "I'm going to take all your money" then all I had to remember was "take money" or "take all" etc etc and it should show up in a future search.

Make sure there is NO CHANCE of your wife getting into your google (or other storage/email solution)  massive password.

Family law consultation is good idea.  In my particular case I was blessed to have a family friend that was also a local attorney.  This person also had a wife (ex by then) with a PD.  So he got it.

He had set up an "ex parte order" with a judge if needed but kept saying that "there would be no healing" from that, as opposed to CPS where they would "mandate" counseling and "mandate" change...or else.

Best,

FF

[Guts42]

Thanks FF,

I'm going into this with the mindset I had when I first suspected BPD.  When I was done reading Eggshells I thought that there's a chance I'm the one with BPD.  I talked to my therapist about that.  She asked, "if that were true what would you do?"
"Anything to get better.  Research, supplements, specific therapy, you name it.  Even if an authority only speculated there was 10% chance I had a PD I'd dive into whatever treatment needed to get better."
That's how I see this.
I want to know what I can do better, whether is something I need to change in my behavior or something I need to do put a stop to hers.  Name it.

I reached out to a local familyaw attorney when i finished Eggshells but didn't follow through.  I wasn't ready and needed more time to process before I started paying attorney fees.  I'll email them and see if I can't do a 1 hour free consult to at least get the ball rolling.

As for getting the kids over the to Aunts... it's not that unusual.  My wife doesn't go over as often as me and the kids do.  Us going over to "give her a break" is par for the course.
I'm tempted to just tell my W Monday that I got a call and CPS wants to meet the kids somewhere neutral.  I'll volunteer the Aunt's house... I think the current plan is for the agent to talk to the kids and then likely come over to our house in the very near future to talk to my W.  I'm worried of course that the kids talk about the nice lady at the Aunt's house who asked them all those questions about mommy.

[formflier]

Ask the agent directly about informing your wife and then ask if there are others that should be informed.

Follow her lead.

Best,

FF

[Guts42]

Copy that.

Emailed the firm asking for a one hour consultation asap.