Situation Escalated: CPS Called

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Perhaps some appropriate nuance. 

Everyone gets (or should) that CPS has the ultimate "hammer" and can pull kids. 

I'm in an weird position where I have been involved in a CPS investigation of my family and I've also "led" a CPS department as a county manager.  So I got to see lots different angles.

One of the things they like to use (at least in "our" department) is "voluntary agreements".  Such as  Dr Smith is agreed on as the family counselor and both parties agree to COMPLY with his direction about what is health/safe for kids.

The same is often used for individual counseling situations.

If people "blow off" the voluntary part and proceed to "making it a fight"...the kids usually got pulled.

If people embraced the voluntary and then were non-compliant..there was usually a warning or two (really just opportunities for documentation)..and if not corrected kids were pulled.

However, if people embraced voluntary and "complied"...then it was rare kids were pulled.  I can't think of a single case.

Voluntary agreements were also used to define (in some cases) where kids and adults lived/keep certain people apart/do supervised only visitation.

So...that history is where I come from in advising the OP to "embrace" the process.  Ask for more counseling/oversight. 

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Perhaps some appropriate nuance. 

Everyone gets (or should) that CPS has the ultimate "hammer" and can pull kids. 

I'm in an weird position where I have been involved in a CPS investigation of my family and I've also "led" a CPS department as a county manager.  So I got to see lots different angles.

One of the things they like to use (at least in "our" department) is "voluntary agreements".  Such as  Dr Smith is agreed on as the family counselor and both parties agree to COMPLY with his direction about what is health/safe for kids.

The same is often used for individual counseling situations.

If people "blow off" the voluntary part and proceed to "making it a fight"...the kids usually got pulled.

If people embraced the voluntary and then were non-compliant..there was usually a warning or two (really just opportunities for documentation)..and if not corrected kids were pulled.

However, if people embraced voluntary and "complied"...then it was rare kids were pulled.  I can't think of a single case.

Voluntary agreements were also used to define (in some cases) where kids and adults lived/keep certain people apart/do supervised only visitation.

So...that history is where I come from in advising the OP to "embrace" the process.  Ask for more counseling/oversight. 

Best,

FF

[Skip]

I think we are on the same page, FF.

• If people "blow off" the voluntary part and proceed to "making it a fight"...the kids usually got pulled.
• If people embraced the voluntary and then were non-compliant..and if not corrected kids were pulled.
• However, if people embraced voluntary and "complied"...then it was rare kids were pulled.

In the above, "people" means "the couple/the parents". And "embraced" and "complied" refers to both parents. And in this case, the family occupies one household, mom is dis-proportionally reactive to stressors, mom home-schools and and dad works out of the house so things are very intertwined, and the investigation was stated without her knowledge or participation.

For this to work, every effort needs to be made for it to be "a couple" working together and to avoid it feeling adversarial or feeling like that husband ambushed wife.

Tall order, I know.  Maybe not possible. But this should be a significant consideration and advanced if possible.

[formflier]

Yes..same page and agree, very tall order.

I suppose additional nuance comes up when one parent "embraces" and the other "holds back" or is "obstructionist".

If there is verifiable progress by the "slower" parent, then probably wise for the "embracing" parent to slow down so they can walk together.

The trick is to not agree "this is it or this is all" but "this is what we are doing for now" with the understanding more will come later.

There will also likely be time for wisdom when the slower parent says "I will never do X" and the "embracing parent" proceeds with the healthy choice and let the chips fall.

We'll be here to talk through the inevitable details and issues that come up.

Best,

FF

[Guts42]

To use a term from FF the visit turned out to be a "nothing sandwich"

I had the agent call me early Monday morning and we discussed a 'reset of communications.'
"Me trying to direct this is an attempt to make it easier on my wife or me- and that's not what this is about.  It's about the kids and that comes first.  So I'd like to sort of reset.  You called asking for my wife so I'd like to give you her number and have you call her."
The agent seemed 'pleased' by this and insisted that we back track and not mention our chat Friday to my wife.
She called my wife and the sh!tshow started!

The agent came over and met with all four of us.  She discussed a few things then asked the kids to play upstairs.  The agent then discussed the report with me and my W.  It was clear she was skimming/skipping parts... but a good chunk of what she mentioned was NEW to me.  I was shocked... I hadn't heard or honestly observed a lot of the allegations.  I was dumbfounded.  My W jumped all over them and refuted them all expertly while shooting me the occasional "shut your mouth" look while the agent fiddled with her notepad.
She asked about therapy and any plans for marriage/couples therapy.  We actually have our first appt on the books for this week.  Once the agent heard that she took on this "Well my work here is done!" tone and went from being polite and agreeable to downright friendly.
The kids were asked down, she asked them a few questions, and closed her laptop.
"Well I don't have any additional concerns.  I'll send this up to my supervisor and if he doesn't have any questions we'll close this out in a week or two tops.  Here's my card."

My wife has been on a rampaging witch hunt since.  She's been all over the place... from blaming me/my therapist (suspecting that she called CPS because she secretly in love with me) to our D "exaggerated" and then her therapist ran with it because she secretly hates my W.

My wife has made some threatening statements about the kids' therapist ("I want to throat punch her" for starters) but that was just to me behind a closed door... however I was recording.

The big "fight" my wife and I had about my trip came up.  My W now blames me for the entire CPS incident.
"Why am I the villain when YOU lost your co first?  It isn't FAIR!  I didn't do anything wrong!  Why is everyone out to get me?  Why am I not allowed to be happy?"

I managed a quick in person meeting with my therapist.  She said that it's likely CPS called me on purpose. Apparently they normally don't call the parent the report is about..?

I also told her I know what I want out of this whole ordeal.  First and foremost the kids safety.  Secondly I want my wife to have a full psychiatric analysis.  I don't know how effective it'll be but it's a start.  My therapist said that I can request that be a condition to close the case and that since I've been deemed the "safe" parent the kids getting pulled would only be an issue if I choose my W (should she be determined unsafe) over the kids by not making arrangements for her to leave the house for a while.  It's clear to my therapist and then kids' therapist that I'm more than capable of providing for the kids.  I've even made backup arrangements with work should that be needed.
My hesitation is involving CPS anymore- they're not here for domestic resolutions.

The agent called me a few hours ago to ask about how I felt the meeting went.  I couldn't talk at the time so we're talking tomorrow.
My therapist urged me to hand over my recordings of my wife gaslighting my D and my dated written accounts.

[formflier]

Don't be surprised and perhaps it may be wise for both of you to get full analysis (psych workups).

It seems like your T is leaning into this. 

Somehow I missed you guys are doing "couples therapy".  Ever tried it before?  Is your T involved with selecting the right therapist?

Has your wife ever had a therapist?


Best,

FF

[Ventak]

I also told her I know what I want out of this whole ordeal.  First and foremost the kids safety.  Secondly I want my wife to have a full psychiatric analysis.  I don't know how effective it'll be but it's a start.  My therapist said that I can request that be a condition to close the case and that since I've been deemed the "safe" parent the kids getting pulled would only be an issue if I choose my W (should she be determined unsafe) over the kids by not making arrangements for her to leave the house for a while.

Hopefully it works for you, but I asked for my W to have a full psychiatric analysis and DHS did not seem interested.  So you can "request" but don't be disappointed...

I made arrangements for my W to leave the house by getting a restraining order.   Showed DHS that I was serious, and based on the notes from the closing report it is why I still have them.  I had two family law attorney's recommend this action.

Good luck!  We are all pulling for you.

[GaGrl]

I agree with your therapist that you should make recordings and notes available to the agent. I would include the recording of your wife's reactions and aftermath to the meeting.

Be honest with the agent that you sensed dismissal once the marriage counseling came up.

You have no assurance whatsoever that marriage counseling will change anything.

[formflier]

I think you should start a new thread "just" on marriage counseling.

You have several things going on that are really big deals..we need to focus on each of them.

Yes I'm a fan of you "trying" MC...it may help...or it may be a train wreck, especially if you are not aware of things that may come up.

Best,

FF

[Skip]

I had the agent call me early Monday morning and we discussed a 'reset of communications.'
"Me trying to direct this is an attempt to make it easier on my wife or me- and that's not what this is about.  It's about the kids and that comes first.  So I'd like to sort of reset.  You called asking for my wife so I'd like to give you her number and have you call her."
The agent seemed 'pleased' by this and insisted that we back track and not mention our chat Friday to my wife.

Good move.

My hesitation is involving CPS anymore- they're not here for domestic resolutions.

I think that is smart.

My therapist urged me to hand over my recordings of my wife gaslighting my D and my dated written accounts.

Talk to an attorney before you hand over anything to the state and about recording in general (what to record what to not record). In my years here, I often seen "record everything", but practically speaking, a detailed daily journal on a calendar (life notes in general) and sharing serious events to multiple third parties is probably better legal documentation.

I also told her I know what I want out of this whole ordeal.  First and foremost the kids safety.  Secondly I want my wife to have a full psychiatric analysis.  I don't know how effective it'll be but it's a start.  

Right now you are probably best to let her get to baseline - chill out. A psychiatric analysis will appear to be blaming and like an intervention and that will make matters worse.

Its probably best to turn your efforts toward making marriage counseling work.

Is you marriage therapist have experience with personality disorders? If not, I'd encourage her to refer the two of you to someone who does after a few sessions.

I think you are on the right track.

[Guts42]

Skip- I think you're right.
Play it cool, focus on wanting help on the marriage and emphasize that we've got something in the books.

Funny thing about our marriage therapist... it's the pro my W just fired!  She stopped seeing her a few weeks ago after this T called her out on a self-fulfilling prophecy mentality.  Not sure what sort of experience she has with PD but it's someone my T really trusts and just so happened to recommend.

Also, as much as I want to "fix" everything now... there's no rush.  I have the agent's card and can always supply her with records later if/when needed.

My uBPDw will self sabotage again.  It's just a matter of time.  No point in me stoking the fire... likely to get burned right?

So... i have few written accounts (dated) of specific events in which my wife was incredibly inappropriate with the kids in terms of a "rage" episode.  Do I keep those to myself?

My friends and family are urging me to "strike while the iron is hot."  They see the abuse and want it to end.  They want my W to get help if she can and for me and the kids to get out if we can...

Talking with the agent tomorrow.   Any suggestions?

[formflier]

Something to consider.

If both of you get full psych workups, it's much less likely that she will feel blamed.

It's not a cure all..but it "might" help.

Best,

FF

[Guts42]

FF I'd be delighted to have a full work up done on me!  I had a surface level one done about ten years ago when I got my security clearance.
I think it'd be good... might provide some clarity for me (or maybe it turns out it is me!)
Joking aside- I understand this is a family dynamic.

[Turkish]

Per Skip's point about the dated journal or calendar, professional sources outside of this forum told me the same thing. Keep it factual.

Two of mine, best that I remember:

"[Kids' mom] left to meet her beau. She left me with the kids after I bathed them and put the to sleep, and didn't return home until 5AM, logged in alarm system as well, front door. <initialed and dated>"

"Kids' mom yelled at S3 who was jumping and being silly in the hallway, she yelled at him 'SHUT THE  UP!' I told her that was inappropriate and to go to the office (3rd room) while I took care of S3 and D1. She got on Skype with her beau and was soon laughing. No further incidents tonight"

[babyducks]

I'd be delighted to have a full work up done on me!  I had a surface level one done about ten years ago when I got my security clearance.

do you still maintain your clearance?      if you do - what are your requirements regarding reporting adverse information?    is your clearance a necessary condition for your employment?

[Guts42]

Yup.  Still have it.
I've been keeping HR up to date on some issues.  My direct supervisor is aware (surface level) that CPS has been called on my W.

[babyducks]

Yup.  Still have it.
I've been keeping HR up to date on some issues.  My direct supervisor is aware (surface level) that CPS has been called on my W.

Is HR the governing body that issued the clearance?

Do you have a legal requirement to report adverse information? Most do.

For example,  in my situation I would have my clearance pulled if I was in the circumstances you describe and I would end up on administrative leave.

[formflier]

Another reason to keep a good journal and contact info is that in addition to keeping HR and your boss informed, eventually you will need to get your security clearance renewed.

Much better to give them the information upfront than to omit it and let them come back for "clarification".  

I was security manager for a long time and the investigators were pretty open about "up front" information appearing "honest" and information they discovered later leading them to "keep digging for more".  (even if it is the same information)

Best,

FF

[Skip]

I think it'd be good... might provide some clarity for me.

The funny thing about mental health professionals is that they will often loosely diagnose a third party, but will be uber-conservative in diagnosing their own patient/client. They so rarely diagnose "narcissism" that it was excluded from the next to last draft of DSM 5.

Read about all the times that our members had their partners labeled by their counselor and then try to find someone here who was diagnosed with a personality disorder.

We had an interesting event at BPDFamily. There was a thread about the wounded child" schema. Members jumped in, one after another, with "me to" - I'm a wounded child. Then we we explained that the schema triad that was so readily being accepted was the NPD triad. The thread went silent.

Why do mental health professionals stay away from these diagnosis?

#1 Because their patient/client is off put by such diagnosis and goes away
#2 There is no differential treatment plan - insurers don't require a differential dx to pay for treatment - in fact it can make it harder to get reimbursement.

Its easier and more productive to treat the secondary problems like depression or c-PTSD or substance abuse.

I'm saying this to let the air out of the "if she gets a psych eval she will be open to expose herself and she will anxious to get treatment" belief.

Respectfully, the same is probably true for you. If you have a psych eval you will approach it with caution - you don't want to go to your wife and say I'm mental and our problems are my fault. You also know that it could be a problem for you if you have a custody battle.

29% of us have a diagnoseable mental illness. A lot of us are on the the spectrum and have things we need to be working on. Most of us, however, view mental illness like we view pregnancy - binary - you have it or you don't - and it only affects 4% of the population.

I understand this is a family dynamic.

Yes and no, but clearly the best path to getting her help is through family therapy. She will want to be heard and he will not be listening to you in the beginning. She will want the therapists to validate her and tag you as the problem. You will need to sit back and let her be heard in the beginning to make any progress. Don't be shocked when she eats up the clock and trys to make it about you.

Don't sabotage the sessions but doing this yourself - in voice or heart. Tell the therapist, offline, that you are going to sit back a bit in the beginning because you think she needs to be heard and you want the therapy to be a safe place for you both to be vulnerable. Ask the therapist to accomplish this safe dynamic.

Again. Tall task. Her struggles are life long proclivities as are yours and it will take time to unwrap these.

[Guts42]

I don't know what to do.
My w is continuing her witch hunt and is getting aggressive with me... she's accusing me of not being on board and trying to make her think she's crazy.

I'm talking with the agent in less than an hour (W will be out of the house)

Feeling a bit paralyzed.
Worried that whatever I say will be either too much and the kids will get taken away or I'll say too little and miss my opportunity to get help.

Maybe I should just drop it with CPS?  Focus on the abuse hotline/resources in my area?

[formflier]

Be accurate with the agent about how your wife is handling this and be accurate about how you are handling it.

I recommend asking the agent what help they can provide if you "invite them in".

Best,

FF

[Guts42]

That's good.
I am deeply concerned that she is obsessed with finding out who made the report and has spent (at least outwardly) zero time reflecting on whether or not this is true.  She's said only that she's hurt that the kids took things more seriously than they were and that "we" weren't given the opportunity to help them.  She feels betrayed (...abandoned?) by the kids' T (again she's dead set it was her).

She's made lots of threatening statements like "I want to to choke her"
"I want to wring her neck"
"I'm going to gouge her eyes out"
"I want to throat punch her!"
"I'm going to learn magic and curse her!"
... did I mention she's recently convinced herself she's a descendant of witches..?

[formflier]

I would encourage you..to encourage the CPS lady to have the conversation with your wife about "who did it". 

You know you aren't going to solve that...so whatever you can do to limit thinking about it..the better.

Focus more on what you are doing to do about all this..than what you wife is or isn't going to do.

Best,

FF

[worriedStepmom]

What types of incidents did CPS bring up that surprised you?   How would you characterize the incidents that were described?  Emotional abuse?  Raging against the kids?  Throwing things?  Manipulation?

Calling CPS usually indicates it is pretty bad.  My SD was significantly emotionally abused by her mom and her T did not call CPS (the threshold may be different in my state).

I am very surprised your W has agreed to see a T for couples counseling that she already fired.  SD's uBPDmom has gone through multiple therapists the last few years and absolutely hates SD's T (she has filed multiple complaints against him) and the family T that she chose.

Do you have clarity yet on what is your goal for you?  Do you want to stay in this marriage?

[GaGrl]

Pay attention to your wife's reactions to the CPS call, as it is indicative of future reactions. Her behavior may get worse before you see improvement.

A key component of BPD is shame. Now that CPS has been called, her parenting (and other) behavior is "public." She no longer can keep it inside a family that she thinks she can control. Outsiders now know, and as a result, she feels shame.

So her reactions are going to focus on preventing those feelings of shame. To that end, she will allow herself to feel anger and will engage in threats and rages...anything to keep her from sitting with her emotions around behaviors inside the family.

It is critical for the CPS agent to know how she is reacting.

[Guts42]

Feeling a bit lost... but I think that's okay.

The call with the agent was brief.

Essentially she has no concerns about the kids.  She said that it's clear the kids are safe with me and that there's "something" going on between me and my wife but that's not her jurisdiction.  She encouraged me to really give marriage counseling an honest try.

She'll be following up with me in about week to see how the session went.  After that she'll be closing the case.

[Skip]

I am deeply concerned that she is obsessed with finding out who made the report and has spent (at least outwardly) zero time reflecting on whether or not this is true.

Let her sort this out and help keep her centered as much as you can without interfering. The good thing is that she is not targetinng you or the children.

She's said only that she's hurt that the kids took things more seriously than they were and that "we" weren't given the opportunity to help them.  

When she cools down, this is a good starting point.

She feels betrayed (...abandoned?) by the kids' T (again she's dead set it was her).

Let her run out her emotions on this. When she is cooler, the two fo you can meet with the kids T to "solve this thing - treating the kids better - together".

She's made lots of threatening statements like "I want to to choke her"
"I want to wring her neck"
"I'm going to gouge her eyes out"
"I want to throat punch her!"
"I'm going to learn magic and curse her!"
... did I mention she's recently convinced herself she's a descendant of witches..?

Don't get off track with the dysfunctional coping and drama. Ignore it. Stay above the water line yourself. She is not going to learn magic.

[formflier]

So..start organizing in your head what "treating the kids better" looks like.

Especially try to find areas where "we" can do things differently, instead of positioning it as "you" need to stop/start (fill in the blank).

Perhaps focus on the outcome and then work backwards.

Maybe an easy one would be no more "home brew" medicine.  Perhaps OTC medicine gets administered under the phone direction of a nurse or?

Best,

FF

[mart555]

She encouraged me to really give marriage counseling an honest try.

She'll be following up with me in about week to see how the session went.  After that she'll be closing the case.

I must be jaded because of the events I went through and badly regret not acting earlie so please don't take this the wrong way but how will marriage counselling help with her behavior?  Her behavior isn't caused by the marriage, and if it is, her having a calm behavior would be due to you and the kids walking on eggshells at all time and you possibly becoming a caretaker to all the family needs.   I don't see how "We agreed to listen to each other more" and whatever else will come out of that counselling will help and as you slowly step out of the fog you may soon realize that what you thought was a "good relationship" was an abusive one. 

As for the CPS worker, if they truly want to close the file (like they did twice in my case), I'd see if you can get something in writing that says that they are closing the file because you are protective of the children and will continue to do so.  In my case, that allowed me to "filter" some of the nasty communications from my ex to the kids and I did not have to worry as much about parental alienation claims (which there were plenty of..).  Basically, get whatever you can from them that could help later. 

[Ventak]

how will marriage counselling help with her behavior?

My BPDw and I had an amazing couples therapist.  She fully understood BPD and held my W accountable.  She seemed to know exactly how to talk to her so she would listen.  She was just starting to work on me with Validation when things went south.  Unfortunately I mentioned that BPDw's suicidal ideations had become intense.  Session stopped and she would not see us until an individual therapist cleared my W for couples work.  I understand why that makes sense, but I also believe my W would be in a much better place today if it had continued.

As for the CPS worker, if they truly want to close the file (like they did twice in my case), I'd see if you can get something in writing that says that they are closing the file because you are protective of the children and will continue to do so.

The DHS agent in my case went out of her way to help me get a copy of the report after closing.  There were a number of things she wanted me to understand, and I'm grateful she did.  They are legally obligated to give you a copy if you ask, and there is likely a webpage on their site that will let you request one.