uBPD mother homeschooling the kids -- want to compare notes

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hi Couper, 

I'm just picking up on your thread, and it is quite an interesting read. I have many thoughts running through my head, but I will stick with 2 in my response.

In raising this issue (which is one of several to discuss), should I present to the lawyer that I think she has a personality disorder, or simply feed him facts and let him draw his own conclusions?

I can only speak to my own experience regarding this. My ex was never diagnosed with anything, and I was hesitant to define him to others in a negative way (that's just my personality). However, I could share examples of facts with the attorney, and let him ask the questions. From all the facts I shared, he drew some pretty accurate conclusions. When he met my then DH, he later said, "If there was a picture above the definition for passive aggressive, your husband's photo would be there." That actually made me laugh, and I was validated by someone who was in a professional position that has seen a lot of 'interesting' people in his line of work. Facts speak pretty loudly without needing to share feelings or perceptions.

The story about your kids, specifically your son with math, and homeschooling is concerning, just as the others here have also responded. I have a link to share with you to give you some additional food for thought:

When are the children of a BPD parent at risk?

Good luck with your meeting next week. Keep us posted. Many others here can help you with questions about parenting your kids through any transitions that may be coming.

 
Wools

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Couper, 

I'm just picking up on your thread, and it is quite an interesting read. I have many thoughts running through my head, but I will stick with 2 in my response.

In raising this issue (which is one of several to discuss), should I present to the lawyer that I think she has a personality disorder, or simply feed him facts and let him draw his own conclusions?

I can only speak to my own experience regarding this. My ex was never diagnosed with anything, and I was hesitant to define him to others in a negative way (that's just my personality). However, I could share examples of facts with the attorney, and let him ask the questions. From all the facts I shared, he drew some pretty accurate conclusions. When he met my then DH, he later said, "If there was a picture above the definition for passive aggressive, your husband's photo would be there." That actually made me laugh, and I was validated by someone who was in a professional position that has seen a lot of 'interesting' people in his line of work. Facts speak pretty loudly without needing to share feelings or perceptions.

The story about your kids, specifically your son with math, and homeschooling is concerning, just as the others here have also responded. I have a link to share with you to give you some additional food for thought:

When are the children of a BPD parent at risk?

Good luck with your meeting next week. Keep us posted. Many others here can help you with questions about parenting your kids through any transitions that may be coming.

 
Wools

[ForeverDad]

I would provide your lawyer the facts... but not leave him hanging without a conclusion you've reached.  If you don't share that, then how do you know whether he has enough information to provide appropriate advice and strategies?

He may have the mindset that most around family court have, that mantra not to name the elephant in the room.  Yet, you need to have sufficient trust that your lawyer will understand that even if you confide your thoughts and conclusions to him/her that he/she will have sufficient knowledge and experience to know what to say — and what to leave unsaid but clearly evident — in legal hearings.

My lawyer knew what I believed the dysfunction was in my imploded marriage, yet he never repeated it to others (so far as I know) just plugged along with the court's process.  There are surely lawyers out there who are more informed on the mental health aspects, but as long as you interview a few and determine which seem to "get it" and have experience and strategies to deal with it, that's okay.

Relatively few family law attorneys will identify BPD, NPD or other acting-out Personality Disorders.  Even psychologists and therapists are hesitant to do that, especially if they haven't personally assessed the person.

I recall my divorce lawyer estimated my divorce at 7-9 months.  Toward the end  (it became 23.5 months!) he exclaimed she was bats*** crazy and once exclaimed she was a sociopath who could lie successfully with a lie detector.  Even so, he never once voiced my suspicions she was undiagnosed BPD.  Post-divorce, even our Guardian ad Litem (GAL, son's lawyer) described many of her poor behaviors but never once mentioned a specific diagnostic possibility.  And the magistrate also was vague on the matter, stating in the decision that ex needed counseling but not requiring it.

Have you read our essential handbook Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by William Eddy & Randi Kreger?  If not, you need to get it now.  It describes how to find a proactive experienced lawyer.  Sadly, our sort of cases require more than a forms filer and hand holder.

One method we've mentioned here is, while interviewing prospective lawyers in a consultation, ask, "If you personally were facing a difficult divorce with real risk of high conflict, from which local lawyers would you select?"  That's a valid question, a good lawyer will know not every person walking in the door will become a client.

I would not ask your ex about the halted math lessons, at least not until you get some legal consultations.  Why?  What good would it do at this point?  Get some strategies first.

For instance, I managed to be assigned as Parent Responsible for Schooling when, after two years, our divorce was final.  If you're already divorced and your ex is in charge of schooling in a court order, you may need to document what the problems and issues are, formulate solid basis to seek a change in schooling responsibility and have a court decide to make an order or change the current order.

When I separated, my son was still a preschooler.  I had a regular job, I couldn't home school.  I knew I did not want him home schooled by his mother, it would be too prone to problems and disaster.  I have relatives who home schooled, but they were reasonably normal, not weaponizing, acting-out disordered.

[Couper]

Thank you both.  I will take baby steps while walking this forward.

[kells76]

Hey Couper, just want you to know I read this and had some ideas, but am on a tiny phone. Will try to reply on the work computer tomorrow.

[kells76]

Also, before meeting with the lawyer, should I question uBPDw about the math situation and how it has changed?  I know that is a potential powder keg and my wheels are turning on how to phrase it.  Or is it just pointless to do so given her propensity to lie about everything, anyway?

I would not ask your ex about the halted math lessons, at least not until you get some legal consultations.

Same thought.

As of right now, both you and Mom have equal rights/responsibilities re: the kids.

Given where you and she are relationally, I don't see how anyone would be benefitted by asking her "what's changed about math?"

I think we can both write out here a probable way that that interaction would go, and it would not involve any sort of "aha" or "insight" moment on her part. Basically, engaging her on this, without any previous changes in how you two interact, is going to make things worse, not "less worse".

So, if it were me, I would be ranking my priorities, weighted by probabilities.

You've mentioned before that you are staying married/living together because you want to protect the kids. So, the kids' well-being is your number 1 priority, as far as I am reading.

Drilling down, how important is it to you that Son does math this school year? Is it a non-negotiable in your book, or is there some wiggle room? I ask because I was successfully "unschooled" for 5th grade and let's just say I turned out fine, math-wise. So, is him not doing math a viable option?

If Yes (based only on your priorities and values, not on what W thinks/feels/wants/etc), then have a "clear the air" conversation with Son -- something like "Son, I've decided that it's fine for you to take this school year off of math, as long as you do X, Y, and Z, and don't fall into doing P, Q, and R."

If No (again, based only on your priorities and values, not on what W thinks/feels/wants/etc), then you need to independently arrange math for him, without asking W "what happened with math". Decide and inform, not ask and wait. Or, honestly, just Decide and Do. Don't wait to hear "why her way is superior" or "she was just getting the curriculum together" or have a debate about "so when is she going to start math with him, then" or whatever. Print out worksheets, and set things up with Son independently: "Buddy, that's fine that Mom has no math for you. Here is the math I have for you. Want to try it all independently at first, or have lessons with me? Our check-in day is Thursday either way."

The part about "it's fine that Mom has no math for you... here is the math I have for you" is the key part of this, as it keeps a triangle from forming that involves Son between you guys. See, it's fine for Mom to have her values and priorities. You have different ones. You support (or, at minimum, don't obstruct) Mom's choice to not do math with Son. Son has his own relationship with you and you DO have math for him. There is no judging Mom's choice in front of Son, so he doesn't have to choose between you guys (and when one parent is high-conflict, the pressure is overwhelming on kids to side with the HCP). This lowers the conflict and tension for him, and brings his focus back to where it belongs at this age -- schoolwork, not Mom's emotions or an argument between Mom and Dad about his education. The last thing you want is for things to "get worse" and Son to start defending Mom: "Mom isn't a bad mom! She said it's good for kids to not do math!" Do whatever you can to not go there, to not inadvertently set up a triangle or "choose Mom's or Dad's values" scenario.

See how you're stepping out of the conflict to act on your values for your son either way? Don't bring W into this, at a time when there aren't new skills or tools being used to defuse conflict between you guys. Focus on your kids' needs and work in parallel. Trying to "ask her opinion" or "get her perspective" while interactions between you guys are so raw, won't make things better for the kids.

So, yeah, if it were me, I'd triage getting the kids' needs met independently. If W asks about what Son is doing, don't JADE! Consider having your mantra be "Decide and Do (and Inform if needed)". Your reply to her can be "Yup, he's doing worksheets" or "Nope, he's not doing any math with me" (based on your values-informed decision). Keep the tone low-key. There is nothing to defend.

Let me know if any of this doesn't make sense. I think my core takeaway is you need to decide personally if you want your kids doing math this year, and then independently make it happen if you do. Believe me... been there, done that, literally.

[Couper]

Hi Kells,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.  It's obvious that you have a lot of experience with this.

I agree about not poking the bear with a stick.  My thoughts on asking weren't to initiate change, but more just to learn what has changed.  Still, I agree that it should just be left untouched.  Whatever answer she did give me, there's a good chance it wouldn't be the truth, anyway.

A lot can change in four days.  Since my recent post now the situation is different.  I've seen him doing some math, asked him about it, and now it seems like it's more light duty (without the expectation that he do several pages every morning before she wakes up -- something I would witness since I'm almost always up before her), so I think she's working harder to hide it from me.  The other day my D9 tells me S11 got in trouble for not doing his math work fast enough.  Something else came up about that another time, too (more of this not teaching constructive skills -- just being angry stuff).  Now I think she has just shifted gears to keep me in the dark.  It seems to only happen in the basement classroom and not at the kitchen table (or anywhere else out in the open).

As to him doing math or not -- I think he should.  Also, I don't think it's easy for her to drop it entirely and may be why she's back on it now.  With this group they belong to all using the same books, there is an expectation that the same age groups stay on the same page as you would in a classroom setting.  Thinking this through while typing, the group takes a lot of breaks, like several weeks on, then a couple of weeks off.  More frequent than regular schools.  I think this break in math occurred during a break in their homeschool group.  They are going back on Thursday.  That is a pattern I'll have to watch.

The tactic you are suggesting makes perfect sense and I will keep it in my back pocket.  When the opportunity arises, I will use it, but I have a good hunch that the reaction still will not be good.  When the kids are needlessly idle and I give them something constructive to do, often I will find that she has rerouted them on to something different that wasn't on the agenda.  It's like a power struggle thing.  There is magically nothing for them to do until I give them something to do.  I feel like that does a couple of different things -- it's a swipe at me showing that she can exercise control, and it teaches my kids that anything mommy wants overrules what daddy wants.

Decide and Do is a good term.  With anything outside the home, that's what I do already and with an outside third-party she's not in a position to usurp it.  However, in the home, as soon as I turn my back she's going to act.

This morning, aware that he was doing math again, I had a quiet moment with him and told him that if he has trouble -- come to me for help.  I told him that he's not going to get in trouble asking for help and that I'll do whatever I can to help get him through it rather than him sitting there stewing over wondering what the consequences are about to be.     

[kells76]

My thoughts on asking weren't to initiate change, but more just to learn what has changed.  Still, I agree that it should just be left untouched.  Whatever answer she did give me, there's a good chance it wouldn't be the truth, anyway.

Unfortunate but true. With DH's kids, I've learned that if I want to know anything about what's going on with them (when did they see the dentist last? has the school been told that SD15 got a concussion and shouldn't do PE? ...?), I have to do it myself (i.e. for me and DH together, versus in cooperation with Mom), in parallel. Don't reach out to Mom to get info. Do as much as humanly possible outside of asking her for anything, as that will just suck your energies in an unproductive direction (conflict/stonewalling/pestering/delay/radio silence) instead of towards solving the issue.

As to him doing math or not -- I think he should.

OK. Good to clarify and articulate your own personal values. Again, this helps direct your limited energies to the area of most impact.

I think this break in math occurred during a break in their homeschool group.  They are going back on Thursday.  That is a pattern I'll have to watch.

Yes. Get some more data, see if there's a pattern, and that can help you decide where to direct your energies.

When the kids are needlessly idle and I give them something constructive to do, often I will find that she has rerouted them on to something different that wasn't on the agenda.  It's like a power struggle thing.  There is magically nothing for them to do until I give them something to do.

That may take some pondering and troubleshooting, and maybe some pivoting in tactics, though I don't think it's insurmountable. I think you're right that it's a power struggle, and it creates a loyalty bind for your kids, too. Again, if there's a high conflict parent and disagreement between two parents, the kids (without consciously "choosing" it), will side with the HCP -- it's a survival mechanism that they aren't entirely aware of, and it's because they don't have strong enough psyches to withstand what would come if they "sided" with the non-HCP.

Long term strategy is to find ways to avoid creating this triangle of "the kids have to pick to either do what Dad says or what Mom says". I know I don't have more specifics yet, though it is possible. More of a "mindset" thing to have at the front of your thinking.

This morning, aware that he was doing math again, I had a quiet moment with him and told him that if he has trouble -- come to me for help.  I told him that he's not going to get in trouble asking for help and that I'll do whatever I can to help get him through it rather than him sitting there stewing over wondering what the consequences are about to be.

  YES. Work in parallel, control what you can control, make it NOT a triangle situation. Good job.

[Couper]

Thank you for all of this, Kells.  Your help means a lot to me.

Another interesting thing just occurred this morning.  I went inside for a snack and as soon as I opened the door, my S11 (directly across the way from the front door working at the computer) snapped-to and I could tell he was doing something online that he shouldn't have been.  When I went over he was on a Word document for a school assignment staring at the screen but not typing.  I asked what he was doing.  Then I asked what he was doing before I walked in the door and he fessed up that he was looking at video game stuff online and showed me.

He was honest and quick about it.  I'm proud of him for that and told him so.  In the past it would have been a big crying fit of "I don't understand" and thinking he could hide it from me (he tried that once and I introduced him to time stamps on internet browser history!)

So, I separated the issues, he admitted he knew better, and I told him since he couldn't be trusted to keep on with his work and not wander when the adults leave the room that I would find a way to lock the browser.

This was an hour ago. I went back in just now and uBPDw and him were at the PC working and I told him that I wanted him to explain to her what happened and he fessed up.  Again, I told him I was proud that he owned it, but there would be consequences and explained to uBPDw that I wanted to investigate parental controls for accessing the browser.  Since his mind wandering and not doing his math is the root of her screaming fits at him you would think she would be all on board with this solution, but her facial expressions said otherwise.  Somehow, in spite of my cautious wording, I am sure she has found a way to make it all about her.  Before she started to read up on it, her face got really red and she took off her glasses like she was about to pop.

In the preceding hour I had thought about just enacting the control and then telling her, but then figured doing that without telling her would have started another war because everyone except me uses that machine.  I didn't put any of the blame on her for his actions but there's no telling what was going through her distorted mind.

I think a password for the web browser is the only solution.  This has been an ongoing problem and a positive to take away from his is he needs to learn that there are rational consequences in this world beyond screaming fits from his mother.  If the tables were turned and she had caught him doing this the roof would have been blown off the place.