Update… Roller coaster relationship - prt 2

[Mr. Kelly]

Hi everybody…

I am just now back from 10 days of an awesome vacation with family I haven’t seen since the pandemic began. It was hugely rewarding and calming.

That being said, there has been zero communication between what I guess I can call my now ex lady friend. I am still blocked on social media.  This may be the longest time ever that there has been no communication with her.

Often, during these break ups, after about a week, she sends out something nasty, and then we start to communicate after that.

I did have a chance to let things settle a bit over my vacation. I see how my last conversation with her was hugely invalidating. I guess I had been pushed far enough, and pretty much dared her to break up. I said things like, “if you really feel all of these terrible things about me, then you know what you have to do. Why aren’t you doing it?”  I said that to her several times. I guess she took my suggestion.

So, in some ways, I’m wondering if this posting should be under the heading of “unsure of whether to continue“ category. I just don’t know what I have left in me.  I miss her. I see her goodness. I also see fairly significant mental illness. I have my own, but it seems way more internal and considerably less acute.

I guess I have been waiting for her to reach out, but I’m starting to wonder if she ever will. She constantly stated that when she is done in a relationship, she is done, and she doesn’t look back. Given that she said, during our final conversation, that she had been coming back all of these times because she loved me, but my behavior continuously prompted her to break up over and over… I think maybe this time I went too far challenging her behavior.  I think she now also likely feels that I have disrespected her, her friends, and her family (by telling her that I don’t feel like I really fit in with her group, and I need to find my own tribe). I don’t know how she will come back from that.

My brain goes back-and-forth between letting it go until, or if, I ever hear back from her again, or reaching out to her and apologizing for my part in the way things stand. I’m actually afraid to do that.  I feel like I will be pulled back into that chaos, and that’s not really what I want for my life.

I’ve been in calmer spaces lately, and I’m not sure it ever will be that way with this girl with any consistency. She constantly finds reasons to push me away. I do get it, some of who I am triggers that for her. I try hard not to give her things to be triggered by, and for the most part, for about the last six months, I have been doing a hugely better job of that, often with the help of you guys. But this is not a normal situation. She is highly reactive and angry. Even simple things that I say about my life can be turned around into things that tell her I don’t love her. I don’t know how I can be any more convincing to her, given the position we are in. Maybe it’s just a lost cause, and maybe she sees it.

So, statistically speaking, is it reasonable to believe that I will eventually hear from this girl? Most of my inner circle has no doubt she is going to be back. I’m actually worried about that. I don’t really want to go into the same cycles over and over. I guess that’s inevitable.

I am so terrified about the thought of reaching out to her to say hi, almost as if nothing has happened, and I suspect she might even be friendly if I did that. But what is it really going to accomplish? Pulling me back into more of the same? I just don’t know anymore.

Thoughts?

[formflier]

  I’m actually worried about that. I don’t really want to go into the same cycles over and over. I guess that’s inevitable.
 

Thanks for the update and so pleased you had a refreshing vacation.  Even more pleased you were able to reflect on invalidation.  That s a very powerful force, stay on the lookout for ways in which is it possible (don't wait to know for sure) that you are doing this.

Any insights on dichotomous thinking?

Glad you are back!

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Any insights on dichotomous thinking?

Glad you are back!

Best,

FF

Thanks, FF.

It was a very refreshing vacation, and I was able to detach at times. I still felt very much in my bones that she should have been there, and I often validate my own existence by almost fantasizing what my partner would be thinking or feeling if we did something together, and whether they would do or see something in the way that I do. I suppose that may be a bit of a part of a trauma bond, or a codependency.

As for dichotomous thinking. Black-and-white thinking. I may convey that liability more in my writing than I sometimes feel. Yes, after a terrible conversation like the last one I had with my lady friend, I often do think the worst. Perhaps the black? I think the worst of her, but how could one not, considering when you are being pelted with every personal attack you can encounter?

I also think black after I get a break up. She’s done. She doesn’t want anything to do with me anymore. I have to move on and I don’t know if I can. I get stuck in kaleidoscope thinking, and my brain goes all over the place. Is that kind of what you mean?

I know that this is happening as it is occurring, and I am often capable of helping myself just a little bit get out of that cycle, but being isolated here without family and friends makes it exceedingly difficult. Knowing that I have several significant music events coming up has certainly been helpful, and I have partnered with one of my friends for one if not both of them, which is great.

What to do with this lady, is another big conundrum.

If I didn’t have this absolute terror in my heart that I was once again going to be triggered with abandonment and self doubt… which comes from years of that kind of message being pounded into my brain externally… I would probably just pick up the phone and call her up and see how she’s doing, it would be simple. There have been times I’ve been able to do that after break ups. I just can’t find the strength to do it right now. That may mean that I haven’t seen enough signs over the last month that this girl is anywhere near being stable. 

I do feel that I have been anywhere near being stable. For me, anyway… :-) Yes, I have been going up and down at times, and feeling a little bit depressed when I think about it. As you know, it is incredibly hard to know that someone that you love and care for, and that has been your best friend, it’s nowhere to be found and has pretty much ghosted.

On the other hand, she is likely thinking the very same thing, although she blocked me from social media after probably just two days of me ghosting her.

I almost felt like I had no choice. After hearing her split the days before, and how nasty and hateful she was, even though she didn’t break up with me, I almost felt like I had no choice but to take myself out of that situation. I have been kind of feeling like it is up to her to fix it, and I’m not sure if she will.  Or if she can.

I suspect, like many cluster B people, at least at this point, she firmly believes all the venom that she was spewing in my direction, however absurd it seemed to me.  Given that I am now not responding, that may give her more ammunition to continue blaming me for this break up and impasse. I think that that is pretty typical of this condition, no?

On the other hand, I worry about sending that message to her, that I will abandon her in her time of need, so to speak. I don’t wanna come across as doing that, although I did say several times early in our last conversation that when I got back from my vacation she would be welcomed to call me and we could continue the conversation.  It was at those points that she said I was a coward for running away as I usually do and not taking responsibility for my behavior. Clearly, that’s her way of trying to control the situation.

I have been thinking a little bit about her demand that I need to apologize to her, not just say that I am sorry that she feels that way about something. I’ve used that phraseology multiple times throughout our two years, and it usually comes back negatively.  She continued to insist that I wasn’t taking responsibility for my own behavior, which I wasn’t getting, and I felt I couldn’t validate something that was invalid, so I would just tell her I was really sorry she felt that way. Don’t know any other way around this. Suggestions?

Like most borderlines, I think much of her behaviors about control. I don’t think she believes that she can control me, and she sees me becoming more firm in my resolve not to be controlled, and I think that’s very difficult for her, and it has changed the patterns. I may not have set that boundary in a productive way, I think I did it by force, and almost by challenging her, so that probably was not productive on my part.

Anyway, I tend to go overboard and I don’t want to this time. So, I’m trying to settle for a bit and get a feel for whether or not I should send out a breadcrumb. My biggest concern is that it will enable the same kind of behavior to continue. Something has to stop, and I think it has to be her to stop it.  Maybe she already has, and her bowing out is her way of stopping it.

Thoughts?

[formflier]

I can tell the vacation has allowed you insight...that is the way forward to a healthier place.  I assure you of this...

If you have the brain space available to spend on insight to yourself...or "figuring out what to do about your lady"...choose insight...

A more stable you is good for you, the relationship and this lady..who you obviously care about a great deal.!

What are some of your favorite things to do together? (where the memories really stick.)

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

I If you have the brain space available to spend on insight to yourself...or "figuring out what to do about your lady"...choose insight...

A more stable you is good for you, the relationship and this lady..who you obviously care about a great deal.!

What are some of your favorite things to do together? (where the memories really stick.)

Best,

FF

Thank you, FF.

I guess I feel like I am in a calmer place… But I am often in a calmer place. Until something absurd comes between this girl and me.

Yes, I do care about her a great deal. Thank you for validating that.  But truthfully, she’s a mess. It may or may not have anything to do with what she thinks about me. Theory would probably say that it has nothing to do with me.

So, if I had to use insight, my insight would tell me that she’s in no place to try to reconcile a relationship at any point soon. She might want to do that, but will she be capable? I’m not even sure I am.

I think space is a good thing. I read about a year ago somebody commenting that taking some space from a relationship is really a small deal, in the long run, if you feel that you want to move forward at some point in the future. Well, blocking your partner on social media is not a way to show that you want to move forward, so I guess I can only speak for myself in regards to that space. I’m kind of trying to look at it as me taking space, but I get the feeling she may not be seeing it that way. I think she’s done.  However, I think I believed that many times. This time feels different, but I’ve said that many times, as well. If I had to guess, I think I pushed too hard this time.

Could I be wrong? 

Plus, I am terrified to reach out to this girl. I don’t want to feel the same kind of pain I felt over and over and over. Maybe I am done, who knows.

[Cat Familiar]

If you did choose to reach out to her, what would be different this time?

[formflier]

  Until something absurd comes between this girl and me.
 

This is something in your control...you have influence on this.

This morning..FF wife was absurd (to put it lightly).  I've not even read all the texts...I get the gist of it. 

Near as I can tell the reality is she went to leave for work and her Envoy would not go into gear.  Then she couldn't find a key for the Subaru...and by the time she called me (I was dropping of S18 at college classes (commuting from home)...she was a nuclear weapon..I couldn't figure out what was going on.

I tried to validate sucky morning..and give information about where she might find a key.  I think her Mom or Dad took her to work (we live in same neighborhood).

Well...after 45 minutes of absurd...non stop BPDish texting..there is about 10 minutes of silence...and then she apologized.

Did she apologize because I stayed calm...?  I'm sure that had influence.  I didn't feed the conflict... 

And really...I just kept going with my day.  Sure I was like "oh great..." in the back of my mind...but my emotions...Heart rate and all that stayed baseline.

So..enough FF stories.  What does working on you look like so when she does "absurd"...you don't "feed the conflict"?

Listen man...it's obvious you care deeply about her...you obviously have connection with her.  Relationships are hard..but worth it.  This work we are pushing you to do...yes pushing you (the non-BPD)...is worth it!

You up for this?  She is worth it...right?

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Listen man...it's obvious you care deeply about her...you obviously have connection with her.  Relationships are hard..but worth it.  This work we are pushing you to do...yes pushing you (the non-BPD)...is worth it!

You up for this?  She is worth it...right?

Hey all. It’s been a while.

Haven’t really known want to say that is different. 

There has been no peep out of my lady friend, and I haven’t reached out.

We are at a standstill, maybe the end. This is the longest we have had no contact of any kind since I have known her. There was only one other time, after dating her for six months, after our first “break up”, when we didn’t correspond for three weeks. Then I got the nasty final break up text, and then the cycle started again, and it’s probably been no more than about six weeks for the same exact thing to happen, over and over and over.

I think our longest period without a break up may have been eight or 10 weeks earlier this year.  In many ways, things had gotten better back during that time, and I thought we were a bit on a roll since then. I think in many ways we had been much better over the last eight months of this year, but now this break up, it seems daunting.

Anyway, I haven’t had a huge motivation to reach out to her. Since I haven’t heard from her in anyway, I’m presuming she is either very angry at me, or completely done with the relationship and is moving away from it.  She has repeatedly said that she doesn’t really “need“ a relationship, but she chooses one, and if this one stops meeting her needs, she can very easily be single. I never really believed that, based on all the things that she said she was experiencing during break ups previously. 

Anyway, I do miss the good parts of her that could be wonderful, and intimate, and fun. But I also think back that most of the time I was with her, she was distracted, angry, and barely present. I don’t miss that, and I think I am hugely ambivalent about reaching back out to her because of that. I remember times that I would wait all day for her to relax and look at me In the eyes, and smile, and then suddenly the girl I loved would return. It was that stark. I just don’t think I can continue fighting that within myself. In many ways, she just wasn’t that good to be around much of the time, and I’m not sure I want to keep putting myself through that. Obviously, I have a fairly anxious attachment style, although I’m working on it.  It just sucks to have to be waiting and waiting and waiting, when I see her, to figure out which version of her I’m going to get, and how long I have to wait to get any kind of sign that the other one is still there and willing to come out.

I digress. I know she’s in there. I’m not sure if what I’m describing is my own deficit or hers. I guess to be with a girl like her I have to be content with whatever version I get, and more or less, I was getting much better at doing that.  But to what end? In many ways, I think I was the best with her over the last six months that I have ever been. That may be part of the problem. I think that she needs to be in control, and to be the boss, and I wasn’t really conceding to that.

Even during our final fateful telephone call. I didn’t concede to anything.  I think that was a mistake, and I think it was hugely invalidating, but it is what it is.

She is either angry enough at my responses to her that night, or toasted enough to not want to deal with me, at least now.

I’ve been patient, and have been thinking that she needs to own her part in this, and I’m not sure if she ever will, so me waiting to see if she’ll reach out will not likely achieve its objective, although it has each time before, by means of a very nasty final break up text.  It feels different this time.

I had what could be described as my most significant birthday yesterday, at least for me, and definitely since I have known her, and she couldn’t even find it within herself to text me a happy birthday and that she hopes I am well.  That just feels almost mean… almost like open warfare. I don’t think I could ever do that to someone, even if I was angry with them. I could never not wish somebody I loved a happy birthday, even if we were estranged. I just couldn’t do it. 

It is extremely possible that she has been so crazy at work, and so messed up in her own head, that she may not have even remembered my birthday, but I am doubtful. She doesn’t forget too many things.

That hurt. Not that I was expecting her to reach out on my birthday, but to not reach out, if she indeed remembered, is a very powerful statement. In some ways, it’s almost an F you.  I’ve never ever said anything or did anything to that girl that deserves that kind of response, but that’s what her silence feels like. Feels like she’s using silence as a passive aggressive weapon.

So I wait. No contact. Is that the right thing to do with someone who is likely borderline, with a strong stroke of NPD in there? 

Conventional relationship experts say no contact is a very powerful tool. You have to let your estranged partner miss you and feel like you may be moving in a different direction, before they’ll reach out to you. They say it’s a very effective strategy. It has worked in my situation each time, but given that this lady has significant issues, I’m not sure it’s the right strategy.

I just don’t know if I have the strength and the courage to go through this again without any real belief that anything will change. Plus, I don’t know if I can face the strong possibility that she’s just going to say, “you know what Kelly, I’m just done I can’t do this anymore, I’m sorry I can’t talk to you anymore… have a good life.”  That could conceivably be a dagger straight through my heart.  I don’t think I can face the potential pain.

So, I think all I can really do is live my life, which I’m doing. I’ve been playing lots of music, keeping myself busy… I had a fantastic vacation a few weeks ago. But I still miss someone, not sure it’s really her, but somebody to share things with. I worry that in a week, after my last musical event, I will have nothing concrete planned in the immediate future… I think I’m going to start to feel the loss much more significantly, and I could go more deeply into a depression.  That’s going to be tough.

I don’t even know if I have a question this time around. If there was a question, it likely would be… What do you think I could expect from this girl if I don’t reach out to her anytime soon?

Typically, they say the trauma people will charm.  I guess I’ve seen glimpses of that in more recent break ups, or she’ll text me something nasty and tell me it’s over, and then I will text her a response, basically trying to talk her out of it, and then the exchange will eventually end. A few days would pass, and then out of the blue, I would get another break up text almost exactly the same picking up were the last one left off. Eventually, I would just offer to get together to talk about it, and things would go back on track fairly quickly after that.  But clearly, that dynamic wasn’t changing anything, and the cycles continued.

What now? Where does this go from here, anywhere?  Is this the final discard? I guess those are the questions.

Sorry for the rant… Thanks for reading, if you got this far… :-)

[formflier]

Realize she may need a different amount of time to miss you...than you do to miss her.

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

Even during our final fateful telephone call. I didn’t concede to anything.  I think that was a mistake, and I think it was hugely invalidating, but it is what it is.

Sounds like "it is what it is" was a Boundary for you, right?  In that case, don't feel you messed up.  (It's typical that pwBPD resist boundaries and so it is up to us to have healthy but firm boundaries.  See Tools and Skills workshop board for Boundaries topics here and here.)

My partner has broken up with me at least 10 times since I have known her, with the longest being three weeks, the typical being 3 to 5 days.

Think outside the box... You've known her for a couple years yet you are here — after several months educating yourself about acting-out PDs and learning how to better communicate — still in an on-again, off-again relationship.

It's not you, it's the disordered person.  While it is good you're more educated now — that can only help you — but it is vital she herself seek to address her issues and work toward recovery.  Until she does that, no matter what you do, the relationship will continue as it has until now.  What you do next is your choice...  Continue the push/pull cycling or not?

[formflier]

So as I imagine you guys...I suspect that if you give it a few more weeks that it will be time to reach out in a nonchalant way about something low key to do.

Also be ready that if you bump into her...you mention it's good to see her and you'd like to do something.  Not "awesome to see you"..."if I don't get together with you my life is over"...just be neutral to slightly interested.

Something she would enjoy.

Best,

FF

[once removed]

Conventional relationship experts say no contact is a very powerful tool. You have to let your estranged partner miss you and feel like you may be moving in a different direction, before they’ll reach out to you. They say it’s a very effective strategy. It has worked in my situation each time, but given that this lady has significant issues, I’m not sure it’s the right strategy.

strategies have means, and ends. so, a strategy to what end?

if youre not done with the relationship, it is more or less two people giving each other the silent treatment to get the other person to give in. this is not a sound strategy.

[Mr. Kelly]

Error

[Mr. Kelly]

strategies have means, and ends. so, a strategy to what end?

if youre not done with the relationship, it is more or less two people giving each other the silent treatment to get the other person to give in. this is not a sound strategy.

Thank you guys.

Surprised I didn’t see these responses earlier… In this new thread, I didn’t have email notifications activated.

[Mr. Kelly]

Sorry guys… Something happened with those postings, and everything I tried failed to post most of my messages… Let’s try again… :-)


Thank you guys.

I suppose this thread is in the appropriate category, and that is that I’m not decided whether I want to continue. I’m quite confused about it.

I care about this girl, deeply, but I am starting to feel that it will likely not change anytime soon. I’m just not interested in that kind of regular chaos, at least anytime soon.  Maybe I’m just toasted from the abuse, I am starting to feel like I want more for myself than to be kicked around like that. 

As to what the goal of this standoff strategy is?  That’s a good question OR.  I have no idea what’s going on with her, so I can only tell you what my strategy is… I’m just not interested in reaching out to her right now. At all.

Do I want to resolve this conflict? I do. Do I want it to be me that reaches out and makes the first move? I don’t. I know it will most likely have to be, but even if I do, what is it really going to accomplish? As Cat said… what’s going to be different this time?

Yes, I’ve gotten a lot better at my own emotional regulation. I’ve gotten considerably better at communicating with her in a positive way. I’ve gotten better at almost everything related to her, but what has it really accomplished? She split even harder this time. Probably because she was starting to sense my boundaries, or maybe her presumption that I was just going to leave anyway, likely because of her nasty disposition over the last month. I couldn’t say.

I can only guess what she is thinking right now. For all I know, she thinks I’m a complete a hole. I couldn’t say. She said that I seemed cold and disinterested the last time I talked with her during our dreaded phone call. That may have stuck with her.  She also told me once that she checks out of relationships long before she has ever ended them, and I get the impression she has ended every one.  This latest break up may be an indication that she had been checking out a while ago based on our up-and-down saga history. That wouldn’t surprise me. I could tell she was trying really hard, right up into her last split. I just don’t think she could hold it together anymore. I think she has just lost interest, truthfully.

One way or the other, I pretty much feel that it’s her that has to fix this. And I don’t believe she will, or be capable.

I do have weak moments from time to time when I think it should just be second nature to call her up and say hi. After all, she has pretty much been my best friend over the last two years. It boggles my mind that just days before this all went down she was telling me that above all else, we were friends, which was very important to her. Really?  I just don’t think it serves my long-term interest to reach out right now. I do need to make a statement, and that statement is that I’m not going to be abused like that, and she has to own her behavior and find it within herself to reach out. Otherwise, I think I am moving in different directions. I’ll likely know well that will take me.  Single.

An honest question is… What else can I really do? I feel if I do reach out to her, it perpetuates the cycle. It enables her bad behavior. What else could I do?

[Cat Familiar]

Yes, I’ve gotten a lot better at my own emotional regulation. I’ve gotten considerably better at communicating with her in a positive way. I’ve gotten better at almost everything related to her, but what has it really accomplished?

What it actually has accomplished is that it’s made you a much better romantic partner. You won’t repeat some of the mistakes of the past.

Perhaps you’ve become so much more emotionally healthy that you are no longer a suitable match for her. What do you think?

If so, there’s likely to be someone in your future who will appreciate your emotional growth and maturity.

[Mr. Kelly]

Yes, I’ve gotten a lot better at my own emotional regulation. I’ve gotten considerably better at communicating with her in a positive way. I’ve gotten better at almost everything related to her, but what has it really accomplished?

What it actually has accomplished is that it’s made you a much better romantic partner. You won’t repeat some of the mistakes of the past.

Perhaps you’ve become so much more emotionally healthy that you are no longer a suitable match for her. What do you think?

If so, there’s likely to be someone in your future who will appreciate your emotional growth and maturity.

Thank you, Cat.

That is putting the best possible spin on it, and I appreciate your optimism.

In terms of potential partners, I don’t feel that same optimism. I connected with this girl likely more than I have with anyone else in my increasing years on the planet. We did had some significant things in common. It bums me out that she diminishes those things… “Yeah, we go on these fun trips, and we have great physical chemistry, and I love snuggling up with you, and I love playing music with you, and all those things, but that’s not enough today’s a relationship on… There needs to be trust and intimacy, things I’m just not feeling when you behave like this…“ She actually said those things.  She says a couple needs to write their own history and make their own memories, and she doesn’t seem to connect those things what part of that pathway.  I try to encourage her to think that those are all part of building our own memories, but she just doesn’t acknowledge it.

So… I just had a significant birthday that puts me closer to AARP territory… Which means I don’t have a lot of real estate left, and if it took me this long to find someone that I have a lot of the same things in common with, I fear that’s going to be a very long road to find again, if ever. So, I don’t really share your optimism.

I guess it could be argued that I am too picky. Maybe getting too old to be that picky. That may be part of what I have learned this time around. I knew that she wasn’t perfect, and who is. But I was much more capable of putting some of those hesitations aside and accepting who she is and what she is. In some ways, I think she’s have a harder time doing that in return.

You’ve heard me say many times that I really care for this girl. Problems and all. Maybe I haven’t grown enough that I am less willing to accept the chaos and the abuse.  I suppose, if I felt any real confidence that her and I could move to a better place, which has certainly happened for short periods of time, maybe like weeks… if I had a greater confidence that she would grow and become more  accepting of her own limitations, and be willing to look more honestly at where her and I had difficulties, I would likely call her up in a heartbeat and chill.

Sadly, I think we both know, for very different reasons, what that phone call would likely lead to. There would be a nice reconciliation. About 10 days of great interaction, with increased connection, intimacy, all the other accoutrements… and the same thing would start to happen again. She would hear something that I say in a very different way than what it was meant, and come to the conclusion that I am never going to do what she wants, which is complete dependency on her whim or will. 

I don’t mean to say that she deliberately sets out to dominate. I just think that’s what she’s used to. That never flies with me, and I think that that’s part of the reason that she blows up like she does. She doesn’t feel like she is getting the security that she thinks she deserves, because I’m relatively independent, albeit with dependent streaks… And when she sees those dependence streaks moving more toward healthy independence, I think it sends a message to her that I’m eventually going to be gone with the wind. I guess there’s a chance that’s true, but I would not have done that to her, if she was able to keep her self together. Whatever that means.

[formflier]

So...you don't like it when she devalues you and what you bring to the relationship?  Do I have that right?

Can you step back and look at things for a bit..actually not things but look at yourself.  What do you bring?  I am specifically not asking what she thinks about what you bring or any of that...totally your opinion about yourself.

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

So...you don't like it when she devalues you and what you bring to the relationship?  Do I have that right?

Can you step back and look at things for a bit..actually not things but look at yourself.  What do you bring?  I am specifically not asking what she thinks about what you bring or any of that...totally your opinion about yourself.

Best,

FF

Well, FF, I’m pretty confident that I am a thoughtful, decent, and kind soul, and I think I represent that fairly well when she is around. I think deep down, she knows these things, and who knows, maybe that’s complicated for her at its core.

Yes, I can look at those things, and for the most part, other than some arguable traits, I think I’m really good at being thoughtful and generous to and with her. 

However, during splits, yes, she does devalue those things. I get over it, but it does Break my heart when she devalues the things that I bring to the table.  She doesn’t seem to think that the constant small gestures that I offer her are worth anything to her. She seems to only want (usually only during splits ) grand gestures, like inviting her to live in my house, or allowing her to redecorate in my house, as I had suggested quite a bit up until about a year ago.  Those are the things that get thrown in my face in rough times, and she says that she doesn’t “feel“ that I really love her. If I could only tell you all of the things that I do that would probably make most women feel like they were royalty. They are simple things, but they are meant to convey care, and love. In the moments, she seems to be able to value those things and appreciate them. Until she doesn’t.  I know it may seem a little like bravado for me to say those things, but I do feel like I treat her really well, in a really kind and simple way.

I haven’t really been able to move forward with any of those things, for obvious reasons, and she uses that as weaponry to strike back.

I don’t know how to reconcile that. I can’t move forward with these constant break ups and devaluations. I just can’t. It wouldn’t even be fair to my daughter to bring that kind of toxicity into my house as a housemate. That’s a no-brainer.

The bottom line is this. If she can’t keep herself together, there’s no future. I just wouldn’t be able to do it.  I don’t know any way to reconcile that other than to continue looking elsewhere. If she is unable or disinterested in looking further inward at her on disability, I don’t know what future we have. I think it’s that simple, really.

What does this all say to you, FF?  I’m trying to get a feel for why you were asking that question?

[stolencrumbs]

Hey Mr. Kelly,
I think I've chimed in a few times on your thread, but I've been following it throughout, and this struck me again in your last post, and maybe now that this is on the conflicted board, it's worth exploring a little bit. Or not. Idk.

She doesn’t seem to think that the constant small gestures that I offer her are worth anything to her. She seems to only want (usually only during splits ) grand gestures, like inviting her to live in my house, or allowing her to redecorate in my house, as I had suggested quite a bit up until about a year ago.  Those are the things that get thrown in my face in rough times, and she says that she doesn’t “feel“ that I really love her. If I could only tell you all of the things that I do that would probably make most women feel like they were royalty. They are simple things, but they are meant to convey care, and love. In the moments, she seems to be able to value those things and appreciate them. Until she doesn’t.  I know it may seem a little like bravado for me to say those things, but I do feel like I treat her really well, in a really kind and simple way.

I haven’t really been able to move forward with any of those things, for obvious reasons, and she uses that as weaponry to strike back.

This seems to be something that has come up a number of times in a lot of posts stretching back to the beginning. My sense is that it is kind of the crux of the whole thing.

She wants more of a commitment and more assurance that she is accepted, and that you're going to be around for the long haul. She appears to be pretty clear about that, though she expresses it badly. But she is telling you what she wants.

And you don't want to give her that. That is fine and probably justified under the circumstances. But that is the reality of the situation. She is asking for something that you are not willing to give right now.

BPD relationships are hard and weird for all kinds of reasons. Believe me that I know that. But they are also still human relationships. Take BPD out of the picture, this kind of thing happens all the time. People have mismatched needs. One person wants children and the other doesn't. No amount of being a nice guy is going to make up for the desire to have a family, for example.

Your lady is telling you she wants a steak, and you keep giving her chicken. Chicken is fine. Plenty of people like it. But no amount of chicken turns it into a steak.

Recognizing this fundamental aspect of your relationship with her seems important. I don't mean this harshly, but codependency ( which lots of us here at least have traits that align with that) involves a fair amount of dishonesty and manipulation on our part. We think we know how things should go, what the other person should do, and then we hide what we really think and try to get them to follow the path we want. It seems like at least some of this is what's going on here.

She wants (or wanted) x. You maybe wanted x if a, b, and c happened. So you held off on x and provided y, hoping that she'd do a, b, and c so that the two of you could get to x. Again, take BPD out of the picture, that's a frustrating position to be in for anybody--to feel like there are hoops I have to jump through to get x, but in the meantime, I'm supposed to accept y and just be happy with it.

Again, this is not intended as any kind of criticism. The number of mistakes I've made in 17 years with my stbx are enormous. But we can learn from it all, and I think at least some of this is what is involved in recognizing our part in all of it. This isn't advice or any suggestion about what to do. It's just what has struck me as a sort of central component of things that maybe hasn't gotten a lot of attention. Take it fwiw, which might be very little.

[Mr. Kelly]

Hi stolencrumbs.

Thanks for chiming in. I really appreciate your input and the time you’ve taken to follow this saga…

You are completely 100% spot on. I think she can tell that I am dragging my heels, but I don’t think she can tell why.

How could I invite her further into my life under such circumstances? I did say that to her about a year ago, or so, and she seemed to accept that we needed to be stable before it was going to go any further.

So, that begs the question, what could I possibly do about that? I can’t really bring the subject of her instability up, because it will send her further off of the deep end.  In her context, every problem points to me.

There is also a trust issue, but I don’t know if that is a product of the above declaration, or not. She goes on and on about how I “threw her out“ at 3 AM in the morning last September, right about this time last year,  even though I begged her not to go, and even stood in the doorway of her car to try to prevent her from going. Oh, and then I didn’t text her when she got home to see that she got home safely, even though she told me to never contact her again and That she would never speak to me again.  A real man would have called her to see if you got home safely, one way or the other, so I am told.

Then, if you recall, I wrote a note to a casual friend that we had seen the night before, but it actually got sent to her… and told him that I loved her when she was stable, I thought I had lost her for good…  I said lots of other things, some of them complementary, but all she has been able to reiterate is that I called her unstable, and she said that I lied and was on a pity party, and didn’t include all the negative behavior that I had cast in her direction the night before that caused her to leave at 3 AM in the morning and tell me she never wanted to see me again.

She even said this time around that I haven’t had the balls to contact my friend and tell him that there was more to the story that I left out, and that my text to him was biased. I told her that it was my choice if and when I was going to say anything to my friend. 

She has even continuously asked me why I wrote that text, over and over, even though I have explained it in great detail that I was basically having a mini breakdown that night, and that I was so sorry it happened. I told her it was a very dark moment for me, and that if I could do anything to take it back and make it right I would.

She just can’t get over it. I called her unstable, and that’s all she will ever be able to hear. She says she doesn’t think she can ever fully trust me after that.  That was what was kind of starting to bring on a lot of the latest split episodes over the last three months.  She repeatedly told me that she didn’t think she could ever get over those things, and that someone that really loves someone would never do that to their partner.

I digress. I just don’t know how to move forward at this point, or if there is even any pathway left.

[stolencrumbs]

Hi stolencrumbs.

Thanks for chiming in. I really appreciate your input and the time you’ve taken to follow this saga…

You are completely 100% spot on. I think she can tell that I am dragging my heels, but I don’t think she can tell why.

How could I invite her further into my life under such circumstances? I did say that to her about a year ago, or so, and she seemed to accept that we needed to be stable before it was going to go any further.

So, that begs the question, what could I possibly do about that? I can’t really bring the subject of her instability up, because it will send her further off of the deep end.  In her context, every problem points to me.

There is also a trust issue, but I don’t know if that is a product of the above declaration, or not. She goes on and on about how I “threw her out“ at 3 AM in the morning last September, right about this time last year,  even though I begged her not to go, and even stood in the doorway of her car to try to prevent her from going. Oh, and then I didn’t text her when she got home to see that she got home safely, even though she told me to never contact her again and That she would never speak to me again.  A real man would have called her to see if you got home safely, one way or the other, so I am told.

Then, if you recall, I wrote a note to a casual friend that we had seen the night before, but it actually got sent to her… and told him that I loved her when she was stable, I thought I had lost her for good…  I said lots of other things, some of them complementary, but all she has been able to reiterate is that I called her unstable, and she said that I lied and was on a pity party, and didn’t include all the negative behavior that I had cast in her direction the night before that caused her to leave at 3 AM in the morning and tell me she never wanted to see me again.

She even said this time around that I haven’t had the balls to contact my friend and tell him that there was more to the story that I left out, and that my text to him was biased. I told her that it was my choice if and when I was going to say anything to my friend.  

She has even continuously asked me why I wrote that text, over and over, even though I have explained it in great detail that I was basically having a mini breakdown that night, and that I was so sorry it happened. I told her it was a very dark moment for me, and that if I could do anything to take it back and make it right I would.

She just can’t get over it. I called her unstable, and that’s all she will ever be able to hear. She says she doesn’t think she can ever fully trust me after that.  That was what was kind of starting to bring on a lot of the latest split episodes over the last three months.  She repeatedly told me that she didn’t think she could ever get over those things, and that someone that really loves someone would never do that to their partner.

I digress. I just don’t know how to move forward at this point, or if there is even any pathway left.

Well, the next time I feel qualified to give advice to anyone will be the first. So I don't know. That's the honest answer.

A lot of this stuff is BPD stuff that probably doesn't really need a lot of attention, other than an attempt to understand why it was hurtful. My stbx will still bring up things I said well over a decade ago, and it's as if I said it last week. That's BPD. The emotions are intense, and rumination is the rule.

I would guess the trust issue is rooted in the feeling that you are dragging your feet. And you are. Again, may be justifiable, but that's what's happening.

I don't have specific advice, other than to say anything moving forward should probably include a recognition that this is what is happening. Ignoring it is probably hugely invalidating. Pretending you're not dragging your feet when you are and she knows it is likely to be hugely invalidating. And all of that, because she is disordered, is likely to show up in all kinds of weird ways. But the root of it isn't that mysterious.

If you do reach out to her, or even if you don't, I'd suggest thinking about it from a place where you recognize that there is this issue between you two, that's existed for a long time, and is rooted in something real that is not just a manifestation of her disordered mind. She's not wrong that you're kind of dragging your feet, and it's not crazy to not respond to someone who's doing that in not the most positive ways. Don't get distracted by her responses to feeling that way, and don't try to justify why she shouldn't feel that way. Imagine what it feels like to feel like you're too messed up for someone to really commit to a life with you. Again, that might very well be the reality, but reality can suck. Proceed with an understanding of that and your role (however justified) in that.

(That is not at all to say that it is at all your responsibility. It's not. At least for me, one of the key things I've gotten out of this forum, is that none of us are heroes, despite often feeling like we are. One step in this whole process is recognizing that.)

[formflier]

totally your opinion about yourself.

I'm still chewing on this...so I'll put it out there as an observation.

Many of us have had the experience with out pwBPD where we just couldn't stop "evaluating" and "trying to figure out" BPD. 

Based on your answer to my question...the important part I highlighted above...I think you should reflect on the amount of brain space you are "giving" to BPD.

I think you should increase the amount of brainspace and energy you are giving to yourself...deliberate time where you work on you without giving even the smallest bit of energy to BPD.

Read my question...read your answer, see if you "see" what I observed?

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Hi all… I think it’s been a couple of weeks since I’ve been on here.

No major changes. I’ve been quite simply moving on with my life. No word from former partner. No word to her from me.

I do spend time every day being saddened by the whole thing, and certainly being lonely and feeling isolated where I live. I’ve been trying to get out as much as I can on my own, and that is always good.

I did get a bit of a shock just now, which is what is making me vent on here.

For whatever strange reason, I went back to Facebook and decided to look up her best friend. Probably because one other time when we broke up a year ago, her best friend blocked me on Facebook, until we reconciled.

My partner would always say that her best friend was my biggest ally and strongest advocate. So much for that. I am blocked on Facebook from her, as well.

It would be my bet that my partner said something that reflected her own narrative, which I presume she would, and it didn’t settle well, so it hurts my heart to think that whatever my former girlfriend has been saying, that it would be enough to cause someone that I got along reasonably well with to block me on social media. That’s just Middle School preadolescent bullPLEASE READ, if you ask me. 

It stings, though, that people that you gave time and care toward could be that shallow that they would just oust you out of their lives. Perhaps what my GF told her was enough to anger her, or maybe break her heart.

I am spending a little time trying to imagine what my GF might’ve been saying from her perspective. I suspect she may have told her best friend that she laid out some boundaries, and that to her, as usual, I was incapable of meeting those boundaries, and I am being a coward and running.

I guess I have to reaffirm in my own head that this isn’t at all the case, and it’s more my choice to not engage in something that is abusive.  My therapist thought it was a good change for me to stand up to this girl and basically force her hand the way I did.  I’m not so sure.

I worked into her split, rather than working around it. I challenged her split and her feelings, and I know it was completely invalidating to her. The average person probably wouldn’t see it that way, but I can almost be assured that she does, and I am now probably assured that I’ll never hear from this girl again, and I’m sure she’s thinking I’m a coward and an asshole and a huge narcissist for showing her the love that I did and then just bailing out. She’ll blame it on me and my inability to be a real man and man up to my behavior. I’m sure that will give her all the incentive in the world to never contact me again and tell all her friends that I turned out to be an asshole in the end, even though I showed her unending love and support the whole two years I knew her.

Well, I’m trying to move on.  I didn’t want to, and I don’t really want to, but I can no longer tolerate that kind of control and misery. It has to be her that fixes this, and I doubt she ever will. 

It is extremely hurtful and painful to think of what that girl thinks of me in her heart, knowing that it is really a concoction inside of her head, and it’s not what I experienced at all. I do wish she could see things another way, but I’m not her. I can’t think like her. I just can’t anymore.

[formflier]

So...is this a fair summation?  She is behaving in similar ways as past splits.  You are being deliberate about a different path.

Sounds tough...think it will be worth it?

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Hi FF.

Good to hear from you!

Well, the new path I took was to be deliberately antagonistic with her in our last phone conversation… “Well, if you really think all of those bad things about me, then you know what you have to do… Why are you not doing it? “That was a deliberate challenge that I have never engaged in before with her.

Other than that, the splits are pretty much exactly the same. She gets nasty, disengages, and I go no contact. However, usually there is all kinds of charming from her after the first couple of weeks, and that’s different. I think she’s done.  This is by far the longest.  Maybe it’s for the best. I am a narcissist, according to her. 

Why her best friend has blocked me on social media I’ll never get. Passive aggressive, maybe? I suspect there’s some triangulation. I made out to be some sort of derelict, I suspect.

[Mr. Kelly]

But to answer your question… Will it be worth it?

It depends what my goal is, and I don’t really have one, other than to expect that I am not trashed. But, she’s incapable of that kind of self observation, so I think it is kind of moot.

I care about this girl, but I have to respect myself now. She was off the deep end during our last phone call, and for reasons that were mostly concocted in her own head. Underneath those reasons they were valid points.  I should have been better at being able to address those points, but I couldn’t. There were no clear answer as to what she was really trying to ask about.  I don’t know how to resolve that.

[once removed]

It stings, though, that people that you gave time and care toward could be that shallow that they would just oust you out of their lives.

it does.

people choose sides after a breakup. mutual friends, family, theyre all often forced to choose.

if i had to guess, i suspect what your girlfriend was telling you was that when she would confide in her friend, her friend wouldnt trash you, that she would remind your girlfriend that you were a good guy and the relationship was worth fighting for.

it doesnt seem like either of you are willing to to fight for it anymore, mr kelly.

your girlfriend probably asked her friend to block you in order to help her move on. i have had people ask the same of me.

[formflier]

  There were no clear answer as to what she was really trying to ask about.  I don’t know how to resolve that.

There are several directions this thread can go.  Really up to you as to what you feel up to tackling.

This jumped out at me.

I would bet a large sum of money she had no idea what she was asking...she wasn't asking.

Most likely she was expressing things she was very VERY uncomfortable with and had bottled up for far too long.

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Most likely she was expressing things she was very VERY uncomfortable with and had bottled up for far too long.

Best,

FF

I think you are exactly right, FF. I think I could always read between the lines, so to speak, and know what her problem really was.  I don’t have any wiggle room regarding what she was getting at, and it’s mostly because of her behavior.

She wanted me to move the relationship forward, by asking her to move into my house. Wasn’t going to happen anytime soon, given the obvious.

Also, she wanted me to retract the text that I inadvertently sent to my friend calling her unstable.  She said I was too much of a coward to tell my friend that I was biased and only told my side of the story during that text. I had no interest in being controlled like that, and told her it was my choice whether I did that or not.

She must be really hurting if she went to the extent of making her self invisible on social media, and her friend also blocking me on social media. Who does that? Well, I’ll tell you… Someone who has painted their boyfriend and lover black, and for what reason?  Because she created all of these bizarre notions in her head and couldn’t let them go long enough to make things work. But that’s what borderlines do, as we know. No point in bemoaning it.

I’m still really torn as to what to do about it, if anything. I care about her, but I can’t manage her behavior anymore. I don’t want that for my life. I don’t want that for her life, but I don’t think she has a capacity to be anything other than who she is.