Advice on how to handle another splitting phase by my uBPDw?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

My uBPDw has gone through cycles -- from treating our D10 and me mostly normally to treating us as though we're the cause of all her problems and unhappiness and that we don't care about her.

Thanks to help from many of you here over the years, I've gotten far better at not engaging. I do now far more often step in to protect our D, which devolves things further, but I won't tolerate her being mistreated. Aside from that, after giving it time, eventually my wife gets back to her baseline "normal".

It's been almost 2 months of mostly non-blaming. While she's felt tired and unhappy, she hadn't blamed us for it or taken it out on us.

Then yesterday she got triggered, blamed our D for something that was blown way out of proportion, and after she told me about it she turned to her usual "you don't care about me, you don't back me up on anything, I'm the bad guy" routine. I acknowledged her feelings and then said I do care and we do care. She's been snippy since then. I've been mostly busy working today, so I've had little interaction with her.

I'm guessing this will continue for some time. If it does, I'm tempted to say something like:

> These cycles have got to stop.
or
> This Jekyll and Hyde s#*t has got to stop.

But as much as I feel that, I'm afraid it's just way too likely to send her deeper into whatever she's feeling right now or into a rage.

Advice? Go with my gut and don't say either of these things, instead just protecting myself and our D, and ride it out?

Meanwhile, it's giving me more motivation to continue reading through Splitting by Bill Eddy and then start contacting lawyers to figure out what I should do.

[zaqsert]

My uBPDw has gone through cycles -- from treating our D10 and me mostly normally to treating us as though we're the cause of all her problems and unhappiness and that we don't care about her.

Thanks to help from many of you here over the years, I've gotten far better at not engaging. I do now far more often step in to protect our D, which devolves things further, but I won't tolerate her being mistreated. Aside from that, after giving it time, eventually my wife gets back to her baseline "normal".

It's been almost 2 months of mostly non-blaming. While she's felt tired and unhappy, she hadn't blamed us for it or taken it out on us.

Then yesterday she got triggered, blamed our D for something that was blown way out of proportion, and after she told me about it she turned to her usual "you don't care about me, you don't back me up on anything, I'm the bad guy" routine. I acknowledged her feelings and then said I do care and we do care. She's been snippy since then. I've been mostly busy working today, so I've had little interaction with her.

I'm guessing this will continue for some time. If it does, I'm tempted to say something like:

> These cycles have got to stop.
or
> This Jekyll and Hyde s#*t has got to stop.

But as much as I feel that, I'm afraid it's just way too likely to send her deeper into whatever she's feeling right now or into a rage.

Advice? Go with my gut and don't say either of these things, instead just protecting myself and our D, and ride it out?

Meanwhile, it's giving me more motivation to continue reading through Splitting by Bill Eddy and then start contacting lawyers to figure out what I should do.

[EZEarache]

I'm guessing this will continue for some time. If it does, I'm tempted to say something like:

> These cycles have got to stop.
or
> This Jekyll and Hyde s#*t has got to stop.

But as much as I feel that, I'm afraid it's just way too likely to send her deeper into whatever she's feeling right now or into a rage.

Advice? Go with my gut and don't say either of these things, instead just protecting myself and our D, and ride it out?

Meanwhile, it's giving me more motivation to continue reading through Splitting by Bill Eddy and then start contacting lawyers to figure out what I should do.

It's unlikely that saying, "It's got to stop," will make things better. Most likely, it will get twisted into, you're hurtful and I wouldn't feel and act this way if you did not do xyz thing. If you're on your last straw before filing for divorce, then maybe it can be your hail Mary pass to the end zone.

If you're looking to maintain the relationship, then I think you already know that you will have to conduct excessive validation and still withstand a lot of emotional abuse. It's really difficult.

[zaqsert]

Thank you, EZEarache.

Fortunately, in a way, my uBPDw slept through most of the next two days, so I barely had a chance to talk with her. By the time we talked about much of anything, I had gotten better grounded.

She did lash out at our D10 yesterday and threw some pretty serious accusations at her (that she couldn't care less about her mom, that she only cares about treating her like a maid, etc.). I tried to validate my uBPDw's feelings, but also set some boundaries — that no one has anyone else's permission to assert what their feelings are. They can share their own feelings, but cannot assert what anyone else's feelings are. And when the other person says what they feel, all one can do is listen and accept it.

Our D had already said she was sorry for making my uBPDw feel like she was only the maid. I worry about the long term effects on D, but I'm not sure what to do about this one at the moment. I completely disagree with uBPDw's assessment, but of course there's no logic to it.

So then I told my uBPDw that she owes D an apology for having insisted that D felt things that D said clearly she felt very different about. I was a bit amazed to hear uBPDw say sorry, even though it didn't sound genuine.

D was still crying, even sobbing. So I told uBPDw she should go give D a genuine hug. She refused, said D only wants me, etc. But eventually she went over and did give her a hug. Then things finally started to defuse. This was the first time I can remember uBPDw showing any affection towards D after one of these rages or after having lost it and berated D.

That was late yesterday. Today has been a mix. uBPDw complained about D to me several times. But at least she's acting somewhat more normally towards our D.

Last night I told uBPDw I'm going to ask for recommendations for a T for our D. Within at most a couple of minutes, she said "ok". I asked D's pediatrician and my doctor today. Will see who else I can ask.

[ForeverDad]

So then I told my uBPDw that she owes D an apology for having insisted that D felt things that D said clearly she felt very different about. I was a bit amazed to hear uBPDw say sorry, even though it didn't sound genuine.

D was still crying, even sobbing. So I told uBPDw she should go give D a genuine hug. She refused, said D only wants me, etc. But eventually she went over and did give her a hug. Then things finally started to defuse.

The apology didn't sound genuine but you asked her to give a genuine hug?  I'm fairly clueless about emotions — hopefully others will step in to explain my thoughts better — but I don't feel this was the right move.  Maybe it was but I feel it might have been better for mother to be asked to figure out for herself what/how to make amends.

[zaqsert]

The apology didn't sound genuine but you asked her to give a genuine hug?  I'm fairly clueless about emotions — hopefully others will step in to explain my thoughts better — but I don't feel this was the right move.  Maybe it was but I feel it might have been better for mother to be asked to figure out for herself what/how to make amends.

Thanks, ForeverDad. You're probably right. Despite many years of working through this (too many years, perhaps), I'm still not sure what the right move is, and I'm open to insights on this.

Past attempts at leaving it to uBPDw (D10's mother) to make amends or asking her to figure out how to make amends resulted in similar outcomes each time. Mother rejected D and alternated between berating her, blaming her, twisting D's well-intended actions into accusations of ill-intent, ignoring her, and being outright cold to her. Mother would otherwise withdraw for anywhere from days to weeks. And then eventually come out of it as if nothing had ever happened, fail to apologize for anything, and refuse to discuss or acknowledge any of what had happened, except perhaps for blaming D and/or me for what had happened.

I want to protect D from all this. I don't know if there's a way to do so while I'm still with uBPDw.

[kells76]

zaqsert, if ever a kid could benefit from counseling, it's yours. Wondering if she's gone in the past?

[EZEarache]

Last night I told uBPDw I'm going to ask for recommendations for a T for our D. Within at most a couple of minutes, she said "ok". I asked D's pediatrician and my doctor today. Will see who else I can ask.

Zaqsert, I think it's great that you are working towards getting your daughter some help. Are you taking care of yourself, as well?

If you aren't seeing a therapist, I highly suggest you start. It will help you sort all of this stuff out and hopefully guide you to figure out what is best for all three of you.

My therapist did not mince words, when he felt it was time for me to move out of the house. Hopefully you can find someone equally candid if you don't have one already.

[kells76]

Oops, I see I missed that line, zaqsert -- thank you EZE for pointing that out!

Good to hear there is at least some "united front" between you and W about getting neutral support for D.

[zaqsert]

Thanks for the nudges, kells76 and EZEarache.

Our daughter has not gone to therapy in the past. She did work with her school counselor about a year and a half ago for a couple of months. That was to help her with coping mechanisms and some emotional regulation. One of her cousins sees a therapist regularly, so I'm hoping that will help it feel easier for her to start.

I've worked with a therapist on and off for about 12 years. Saw her for a few years at first, then as needed. Picked it back up for months at a time since then, plus occasional sessions when I felt it could be helpful. I haven't talked with her since late last year though. Good point, I should pick that back up again. It also helps that she knows so much of the history.

For D, her pediatrician sent me a generic listing of therapists in the area. I'm looking through those and also looking up others to narrow it down to a few to reach out to. Hoping I might get specific recommendations, but haven't gotten any so far.

[formflier]

Can you go back to the first post?

Any chance you can give some details and he said she said of the minute or two right before "blah blah blah you never back me up blah blah blah"

My thought is that if we can find a different way to respond to the initial thing, lots of things will shift. 

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

The apology didn't sound genuine but you asked her to give a genuine hug?  I'm fairly clueless about emotions — hopefully others will step in to explain my thoughts better — but I don't feel this was the right move.  Maybe it was but I feel it might have been better for mother to be asked to figure out for herself what/how to make amends.

I've been pondering my post these past days and I have concluded that asking the mother to "figure out amends" is not much if any improvement over asking for a "genuine" hug.  After all, asking a disordered person to figure this out is unreasonable.

All I can come up with is to state this cannot and must not happen again.  But we all know it will.  So... what is a better way to protect the child?

[formflier]

I would add to this that expecting her to "figure it out in the moment" is likely not going to happen, yet posing the issue as a question to ponder can be helpful...especially if not done in an accusatory way.  (as always..lots of trial and error)

For me  instead of asking "please figure out how to speak to me without abusive words" (or something like that..) just wouldn't have worked.

But...with some emotion and "perplexed"... "I'm not going to be able to continue this conversation since these harsh words have come between us"  perhaps a pause..."would tomorrow evening work better?"

Notice that:  I'm "owning it"...boundary is clear..I don't do harsh words, an I also reference "us" an "together"...while at the same time giving FFw space to either "pick up the issue" or " stay in her own world where harsh things said are ok..or she doesn't believe they are harsh"

Then just let her wrestle with it while I do something else and STOP DEBATING.

Probably now have better than 50% success with it.  Success is a better conversation later and a few weeks ago I actually got an apology (of sorts)

This is worth a chuckle

FFw:  "Everything I said was true, but I should have said it in a much nicer way.  I'm sorry..please forgive me"  (this was all via text..some rant she was on)

FF:  "Oh babe..I so appreciate the apology.  No worries.  Let's talk more in person later"

Things rarely get talked about later because the "flame has burned out".  (I used to try to find wood, matches and sometimes gas to restart old fires..didn't work out well...so I don't recommend that)

Hope this helps!

Best,

FF

[zaqsert]

I've been pondering my post these past days and I have concluded that asking the mother to "figure out amends" is not much if any improvement over asking for a "genuine" hug.  After all, asking a disordered person to figure this out is unreasonable.

All I can come up with is to state this cannot and must not happen again.  But we all know it will.  So... what is a better way to protect the child?

Thanks, ForeverDad. And thanks for coming back to this.

I now have a list of T recommendations for D10. Some of them to talk with and consider for D. Others a bit too far away but highly recommended, so I'll ask them if they know of a T closer to home they'd recommend. I may leave a few messages this weekend or try them next week.

Can you go back to the first post?

Any chance you can give some details and he said she said of the minute or two right before "blah blah blah you never back me up blah blah blah"

My thought is that if we can find a different way to respond to the initial thing, lots of things will shift. 

Hi FF. In the past it used to be:

uBPDw: Complains or rages about something D did (or didn't do but W accuses her of doing, typically "against" W).

zaqsert: Acknowledges W's feelings and what was said. If appropriate (when there's real substance to it), reiterate D's part in it to D, the effect of it, and what she should do differently.

W: Often continues to pile on.

z: Wanting to be fair to D and keep things balanced, mention that to help with these situations in the future W may also want to do X.

W: "You never back me up" / "You always take her side" / etc.

Previously, in other situations it would happen the moment I stuck up for D, such as because I felt what she had done was reasonable in her situation, or if I felt the punishment (or even verbal attack) was excessive.

More recently, it happened before I uttered a single word about what W may want to consider doing differently, and instead it seems to have been that I was apparently too calm in addressing D, or not imposing consequences at the level W thought I should.

In the event at the top of this thread, as with other recent events, it's been more of an implicit assumption at the beginning. I'm open to suggestions, although I've tried it a number of different ways, and it doesn't seem to matter what I've done, the result was about the same. For example, that recent one was:

W: Told me about the "terrible" things D did and how she "always" does that.

z: Listened and validated with a few words W had said.

W: Said more about it.

z: Still listening and validating a key point or two.

W: "But of course you don't care about me, D doesn't care about me, and you won't back me up on this!"

z: Try to validate the feeling and reassure W that I do care about her.

W: "No you don't" and walks away.

I learned years ago that nothing good ever came from trying to follow her or continue the conversation, so I didn't.

Things rarely get talked about later because the "flame has burned out".  (I used to try to find wood, matches and sometimes gas to restart old fires..didn't work out well...so I don't recommend that)

So true. I too finally learned at some point that it's pointless to try to restart those fires.

I'm glad you got some form of apology though.

[formflier]

So..why not make it a goal to NEVER handle the parenting issue in the moment...NEVER.

Let the flame burn out and problem likely solved.


Blah blah blah D did x y and z.

you:  Oh goodness...am I hearing right...x y and z?  That's alarming.

blah blah yes

you:  I'm so shocked, that had to be so hard for you (maybe a pat on shoulder or other "connection")...I'm going to think about this for a while to have a wise response.  Let's talk more this evening (hours later)

(you aren't really asking if this is OK...you are stating your path..your boundaries... so then pivot to connection)

I could really use some us time, how about we do (blank)?  (but don't talk about D issue)

It's worth a shot...

Best,

FF

[zaqsert]

Worth a shot. Thanks, FF. I'm not sure how well it will work since she's been in a pretty consistent phase against D and me for a couple of weeks now, and in a general funk for more than a year. Still, worth a shot.

[livednlearned]

Advice? Go with my gut and don't say either of these things, instead just protecting myself and our D, and ride it out?

It seems like your wife responds when you are firm. She listened to you, even if it was hard in the moment for her to apologize. That's 

Was there something different with the way you spoke to her that time?

There's a section in Eddy's other book Don't Alienate the Kids where he advises a parent whose child is using a block to hit another child, "We don't hit in this family. Let's use the blocks to build." Then redirects to building.

Your way of handling things has those elements.

Sure, there's room to phrase things better but who ever says things 100 percent correct in the moment 

You seemed to be saying to W, "We apologize in this family." Or, "We don't pile-on in this family."

Eddy's advice is along the lines of:

"We _________ in this family." Then redirects to the preferred behavior or whatever helps cool the cortisol build up: "Let's take 5 and _________."

I can't remember if this is from his work, or someone else, but along the lines of what FF is saying, there's also:

"I feel my heart racing and my chest is pounding. I need a time out, anyone else? I'm not good at problem solving when I feel like this. How about we ________ for __ minutes then come back and try again. We'll get there, this is important to you."

Would something like that work?

That way you're communicating that there's a cool head parent prevailing, you're referring to the family code (made explicit, good for everyone), letting emotions cool, paying attention to mom, protecting D, taking care of yourself, etc.

How do you think something like that might work?

Also, not sure how old D is, but our kids grow up fast in these households. And there's a lot of stress. I wish I had done more repair/recover type behavior after blow-ups. "I'm just checking up on you to see how you're doing. That was rough. I have a lot to learn about staying cool when my heart starts racing. I could barely breathe and think straight. How about you?"

So nothing to malign the other parent, just shining light on emotions and how they feel in the body, modeling forgiveness for how I did/didn't handle my own ride on that roller coaster, things I wish I did better.

How would D respond to a conversation like that?

[zaqsert]

Thanks, livednlearned. A lot of good stuff here.

It seems like your wife responds when you are firm. She listened to you, even if it was hard in the moment for her to apologize. That's 

Was there something different with the way you spoke to her that time?

I think it was two things: the way I spoke to her and how I stayed on topic.

I spoke in a way that was mostly calm but firm. I'd like to think it's because I've been feeling more grounded. It's probably also because I've gotten so fed up of the cycles over and over, and want to protect D10 better than I have been.

One technique I've been trying recently I borrowed from Never Split the Difference, the negotiation book by Chris Voss. He describes it as the FM radio DJ voice — low, calm but firm, and ending each sentence with a downward tone to avoid the rising tone that can sound like a question.

My natural tendency is to leave an open space for the other person's opinion or response. There are parts of these conversations where I'm really not open to family rules being debated, so I'm getting better at presenting them as such. I found myself doing something similar with D10 this morning — I told her something, and since there was no need to respond I stopped myself from adding "ok?" or "sound good?" at the end.

The part about staying on topic is to avoid chasing what can otherwise feel like constant shifts to different topics that are presented as "reasons" but really have little to do with each other, and ultimately circular conversations. Here too, it's been quite a bit of training since my natural tendency is to feel that I should respond to what someone else said to me. I can, in fact, keep myself on topic, and I have the right to do so.

There's a section in Eddy's other book Don't Alienate the Kids where he advises a parent whose child is using a block to hit another child, "We don't hit in this family. Let's use the blocks to build." Then redirects to building.

You seemed to be saying to W, "We apologize in this family." Or, "We don't pile-on in this family."

Eddy's advice is along the lines of:

"We _________ in this family." Then redirects to the preferred behavior or whatever helps cool the cortisol build up: "Let's take 5 and _________."

I can't remember if this is from his work, or someone else, but along the lines of what FF is saying, there's also:

"I feel my heart racing and my chest is pounding. I need a time out, anyone else? I'm not good at problem solving when I feel like this. How about we ________ for __ minutes then come back and try again. We'll get there, this is important to you."

Would something like that work?

That way you're communicating that there's a cool head parent prevailing, you're referring to the family code (made explicit, good for everyone), letting emotions cool, paying attention to mom, protecting D, taking care of yourself, etc.

How do you think something like that might work?

I really like the redirect approach. I've been using "We don't _____" or "We _____". I'll add "... in this family" to make it explicit that I'm talking about family rules. And I like the redirect.

Thinking back on it, I suppose I did use a similar approach recently: "We don't assert other people's feelings or intentions, we don't tell them what they feel or intend. We ask them, and then we have to accept what they say. Ask D10 what she feels." It'll be helpful for me to internalize the family reference and the redirect so I can try it and use it more consistently.

Adding this book of Eddy's to my reading list.

Also, not sure how old D is, but our kids grow up fast in these households. And there's a lot of stress. I wish I had done more repair/recover type behavior after blow-ups. "I'm just checking up on you to see how you're doing. That was rough. I have a lot to learn about staying cool when my heart starts racing. I could barely breathe and think straight. How about you?"

So nothing to malign the other parent, just shining light on emotions and how they feel in the body, modeling forgiveness for how I did/didn't handle my own ride on that roller coaster, things I wish I did better.

How would D respond to a conversation like that?

D is 10, coming up on 11 soon. They sure do grow up fast in these households. I can relate too since I grew up fast in mine, although there were different personality disorders there.

I love this. D tends to respond anywhere from ok to well when I approach the conversation with feelings. Not necessarily too soon afterwards but we've had some good, although short, conversations on this.

Elaborating on the feelings, as you suggested, can be good too to go beyond just a few words like "bad" or "frustrating".

And I'll try keeping these feelings conversations separate from others. Recently I've felt the need to tell D after some of these blow-ups, for example, that she is a good, caring, loving, thoughtful person. That she clearly has done X, Y, Z consistently (good things that W insisted she hasn't done), and I'm sorry that for some reason W doesn't seem to notice that right now. D acknowledges it, but tends not to want to talk about it. I don't want to malign W, but I also feel the need to let D know that she (D) is not crazy since these attacks can feel pretty crazy-making. Separating the feelings conversation may be a better approach.

[formflier]

I'd like to think it's because I've been feeling more grounded.


 It's probably also because I've gotten so fed up of the cycles over and over

I see two big "thrusts" that we try to use on BPDFamily.  

1.  The technical part of say this don't say that because it's (insert reasons)...this is a boundary this is how to implement it..etc etc etc.

2.  The way of "being" or "approaching" a problem.  I should say THE PROBLEM...this crazy making behavior.

As you have discovered that coming at this from a grounded...thoughtful...neutral place is likely paying the biggest dividends

At first glance what I'm going to say next may seem a bit controversial or "backwards"...hang with me.

I think you are much better to approach an outburst from a place of "This is no good...not going to be part of this at all.." ... than "this is horrible for my daughter..I'm going to protect her" (I'm not saying you shouldn't protect your daughter...)

Why would I say such a thing?

"I'm going to protect my daughter" has emotion and also has the trappings of "judgment" because you are judging that someone is harming or potentially harming your daughter.  That's going to come across to your pwBPD...even in very very subtle ways.  (remember they are hyper sensitive and can read people)

Using "I want no part of this..." or "stay neutral FF..." as a "calming cry" in your head is likely going to be better...because of all the subtle stuff that comes with it.

Thoughts?

Oh...I forgot.  Coming back to modify.  The reason it's most important to have a "way of thinking" instead of a stack of preplanned "say this, not that" things are the curveballs.

I would get on a good streak and think I had BPD beaten (eyeroll) and then out of nowhere some crazy azz stuff would come out of FFw mouth and I would stare slack jawed...or go to a preplanned thing that really didn't fit.


Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

One technique I've been trying recently I borrowed from Never Split the Difference, the negotiation book by Chris Voss. He describes it as the FM radio DJ voice — low, calm but firm, and ending each sentence with a downward tone to avoid the rising tone that can sound like a question.

That's great advice. Lots more people read than post and I know this will go a long way helping people navigating those charged moments.

I can, in fact, keep myself on topic, and I have the right to do so

People who are desperate to win or get into a one-up position will throw out whatever might stick, and it sounds like you're discovering that sticking with one position helps to set the tone that this is a one-topic thing, let's stay on topic, stay grounded, I'm holding this moment for x, etc.

"We don't assert other people's feelings or intentions, we don't tell them what they feel or intend. We ask them, and then we have to accept what they say

I feel you on this one. My son's father used to say, "mom loves the dog more than us" to my son and other gems.

Another approach I learned was to validate, "Wow. How did that feel when dad said that?"

Adding this book of Eddy's to my reading list.

It's primarily for high-conflict divorces but the principles are applicable to a high-conflict marriage with kids. Flexible thinking, managed emotions, moderate behaviors, and checking yourself. Modeling that for D10 in all interactions = the whole book 

If you want a fantastic book to learn about validation, "I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better" by the Lundstroms is great. Not just for working with D10 but also with your wife, especially the section on asking validating questions. Works best to avoid steer away from a dysregulation, not quite as helpful when one is well underway or escalating, in my experience.

Elaborating on the feelings, as you suggested, can be good too to go beyond just a few words like "bad" or "frustrating".

Sometimes helping our kids notice what's happening in their bodies gets them to associate emotions with what's "real." Might be different with your D, but with my son, I've had to model this and now he's full kung fu when it comes to verbalizing body --> emotions. He's better at holding himself steady in life because of it.

[zaqsert]

I think you are much better to approach an outburst from a place of "This is no good...not going to be part of this at all.." ... than "this is horrible for my daughter..I'm going to protect her" (I'm not saying you shouldn't protect your daughter...)

[...]

Using "I want no part of this..." or "stay neutral FF..." as a "calming cry" in your head is likely going to be better...because of all the subtle stuff that comes with it.

That's interesting. I can see how the non-verbal parts may come across differently. As it is, a couple weeks ago I took a deep breath during a moment of silence, and W said she could hear me judging her. I said it was just a deep breath. I'll try this out and see how it feels.

Oh...I forgot.  Coming back to modify.  The reason it's most important to have a "way of thinking" instead of a stack of preplanned "say this, not that" things are the curveballs.

I would get on a good streak and think I had BPD beaten (eyeroll) and then out of nowhere some crazy azz stuff would come out of FFw mouth and I would stare slack jawed...or go to a preplanned thing that really didn't fit.

Good advice. Much more flexible this way. Thanks.

[zaqsert]

If you want a fantastic book to learn about validation, "I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better" by the Lundstroms is great. Not just for working with D10 but also with your wife, especially the section on asking validating questions. Works best to avoid steer away from a dysregulation, not quite as helpful when one is well underway or escalating, in my experience.

I had forgotten about that one. It's a great book. I read it about 8 years ago after learning about it here. Probably a good time to go back and skim through it again.

The other one that felt incredibly helpful was "The Power of Validation" by Karyn Hall and Melissa Cook. In addition to using lessons from that one with D, who was about 2 or 3 back then, I found it helpful with adults too, including in work environments.

Sometimes helping our kids notice what's happening in their bodies gets them to associate emotions with what's "real." Might be different with your D, but with my son, I've had to model this and now he's full kung fu when it comes to verbalizing body --> emotions. He's better at holding himself steady in life because of it.

That's fantastic. So glad you did that and it helped your son so much.

[zaqsert]

So here's another one for me to practice on, fresh from this evening. Sorry for the long post on this one.

W has been complaining that D10 doesn't proactively seek out W to do things together.

After a blow-up this weekend, W told me she isn't doing anything for D, and it's all up to me. W also has a medical procedure planned this week. Likely uncomfortable, but it's a diagnostic procedure that these specialists do all the time. So at the moment, that's one of the reasons why W has been spending most of her day in bed (the reasons tend to change every week or two). When she's in these states, she often wants to be left alone. Sometimes, however, she seems happy to have D watch something on TV with her. I never know which it's going to be until it happens — or worse, after it happened!

Today I brought D home in the late afternoon. D went in to say hi to W. After a short while, W said go do your homework. So she did. And then she went into her usual routine of doing something to unwind. For a couple of weeks or so she's been enthralled in a book series, so she spent the time reading.

Later in the evening I saw a note about something at school later this week. I asked D about it, she filled me in and told me she wants to do it.

Sometime after that, a friend mentioned the school thing to W. W came out to ask about it. I said D is going. D filled her in too.

W: That would have been nice to know. If only D had bothered to come talk with me after she got home.
Me: Like she did when she came home?
W: Yeah, she came in for a minute and left.
Me: When you told her to go do her homework?
W: She could have come back after she was done with her homework. But no.
Me: I see what you mean. Yeah, that would have been nice. (as W stormed off)

And I found myself at a loss for what to say or do next.

I think a pattern recently is that W complains about D not doing what W expects. But W rarely asks for what she wants. Then when she doesn't get it she may complain or even blow up. W used to do this to me. It drove me nuts. I don't play along as I used to, so now she seems to target D more often.

I wonder if it may be worth trying something like "We don't complain about each other in our family. We help each other. So when you're up for doing something with D, tell her, to help her know that you're ready and up for it."

I'm guessing W will say D should proactively want to do things with W, but it's just that D doesn't want to. Then maybe it's back to "We ask each other what our feelings are in our family. Then we listen and accept. D already established that she wants to do things with you. So now since we help each other, help her figure out when are good times that work for you."

This may not get us anywhere different. Still, it feels worth seeing what I can learn from this round.

As to what to do with D after these blow-ups, this happened after I had briefly read FF's and livednlearned's responses above. So I walked over to D and started to say "hey, after..." D interrupted me looking annoyed and said "I'm fine!" I told her I want to share something about my feelings (as in, different topic). I shared that when those things happen, then often catch me by surprise, and it feels like "oof" right here, tapping my fist around my lower chest, and bending over a bit. So, one step towards verbalizing body --> emotions.

Finally, as to W's claim that she's out, I have no idea what she means. When I checked in this weekend ("It sounds like you're saying you're stepping away from parenting") she backed off. She had previously said she wants to get away for some time to gain some perspective. This weekend during a dysregulation it sounded more permanent. Then she also made it sound as though she may not come out alive from the (routine for specialists, very low risk, common, not a big deal by medical standards) diagnostic procedure. I had asked her if she wanted to talk with her T, and she said no.

I've been getting back to documenting her behaviors, actions, and words. Unfortunately I'm in a state that requires both parties to consent before recording. I have seen here that that's rarely, if ever, enforced though.

[formflier]

So...you know your wife best, step back to the 30k foot level.

My wife is worried about (you've kinda already said it..)


Two big things/ideas came to me.

Clarity of purpose:  Ask directly and explicitly what she wants from you.

her:  blah blah it would be nice if she came to me...blah blah

you:  Yes that would be nice.

pause as she is flustered you have changed the dance

you:  Would you like empathy from me or do you want to talk about parenting strategies for D.

If she won't answer..stick with empathy


The other thing that jumped out at me is addressing the "elephant in the room".

you "I'm feeling anxious about D's procedure next week.  How are you doing?"

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

I think a pattern recently is that W complains about D not doing what W expects. But W rarely asks for what she wants.

You have this tricky balancing act where you want to guide W to more accountable behavior (asking for what she wants) while knowing she might resist (blow up). It's also possible she will resist in the moment and still change her behavior over time.

I'm a fan of letting mad people stomp off give themselves a time out

"How did D respond when you let her know you wanted to spend time with her?" might be a way to thread the validation/accountability needle, knowing that W might sense responsibility being shifted back to her and not like it (storming off), yet learning something in the moment (I'm supposed to ask for what I want).

W will say D should proactively want to do things with W, but it's just that D doesn't want to

I'm going to guess that W doesn't really want to problem solve this ... ? More likely, she's sliding into a triangulation with you "let's gang up on D, so I'm up and she's down, and you're tipping the balance in my favor."

Moving to the center of the triangle would mean engaging her in some kind of accountability bind for lack of a better word. "What's a good way to let D know when you're open to having her seek you out. Maybe we can brainstorm this."

I think it's also worth acknowledging that in general, there will be persistent resistance to taking responsibility. Victimhood can be pervasive and you will be enlisted regularly to play a role in affirming this.

I shared that when those things happen, then often catch me by surprise, and it feels like "oof" right here, tapping my fist around my lower chest, and bending over a bit. So, one step towards verbalizing body --> emotions.

It can take years for this tree to bear fruit.

Finally, as to W's claim that she's out, I have no idea what she means. When I checked in this weekend ("It sounds like you're saying you're stepping away from parenting") she backed off. She had previously said she wants to get away for some time to gain some perspective. This weekend during a dysregulation it sounded more permanent. Then she also made it sound as though she may not come out alive from the (routine for specialists, very low risk, common, not a big deal by medical standards) diagnostic procedure. I had asked her if she wanted to talk with her T, and she said no.

Are you setting up new boundaries? This almost sounds like she's testing.

[formflier]

For the last part about wife saying she is out..

I'm going to put that in same category as divorce threats.

I don't think you should react either way...or really pursue this.

If she wants to leave, she doesn't really need to involve you or D..she can just leave.  Yet she hasn't done that.

So...it's more likely about the threat...and/or reaction she gets from the threat.


Does she threaten to get whats she wants in other areas of life?

Best,

FF