Not sure what to do anymore - assistance needed

[Manic Miner]

Facts:

- Been 20+ years together, have one child.
- My spouse is NOT diagnosed with bpd. Been to several therapists for anxiety and depression. None confirmed it when I asked.
- My gut feeling tells me otherwise. I'm not qualified to give any diagnoses, but something I feel is not right. IMO, she has several bpd traits.

- For years she thought my love was not adequate or enough. I lack empathy, care or I even hate her.
- Has anger issues, sometimes with rage and aggression. But most of time she seems desperate before rage/aggression kicks in.
- Cries a lot, worried about our relationship and genuinely seems hurt, even though the reality seems much more calm or less severe than her thinking of it.
- Cannot be reasoned with logic in those times - *I* am responsible for everything, overreacted, have issues etc. If I react/defend/try to explain, it's like adding fuel to the fire.
- Can be rude, sarcastic, jealous and without any empathy when she feels hurt. The problem is, even after 20+ years of being together I STILL cannot sense or predict what kind of hurt are we talking about when it comes. Thus, getting hurt myself as I expected different outcome/treatment than I got.
- People see her as cheerful, joyful, good looking, nice, sweet, innocent (which she is, but just one part of the coin).
- She's a hardworking, highly educated and creative person and a great mother - no doubt about that.

Problems:
- I'm losing it, even though I try hard to get past everything. I'm extremely logical person and I'm losing it when someone accuses me of something that I didn't do or was other way around. When I try to be nice, have a good and working relationship, and then someone throws garbage on me.

For example, she can treat my free time and my trying to help for granted. If I show that I'm hurt, displeased, she will be mean and try to be rude, how she didn't need me in the first place etc. If I react, she will burst crying, saying how she cannot take it anymore, she will leave with our daughter etc.
 
- Every time when pressed against a wall and faced with responsibility for her behavior she uses excuses. Of all kinds - from blatant denying, crying, reflection to spinning the story, telling me how she did the house today, bought X and Y and how I'm being mean considering how much she does, cares, etc. How can I be so cruel to such a lovely wife? It's me. I have the problem.

Please try to assist me, what should I do now? Should I just let her to leave, as she threatens? Should I abandon this all, is there a point? I can't see her going to therapy about this - it's about me needing therapy after all. And I'm sick and tired being accused as a villain. Seeing that my hurting, my emotions don't matter when she feels "threatened". So frustrated and tired.

[EZEarache]

Facts:

- Been 20+ years together, have one child.
- My spouse is NOT diagnosed with bpd. Been to several therapists for anxiety and depression. None confirmed it when I asked.
- My gut feeling tells me otherwise. I'm not qualified to give any diagnoses, but something I feel is not right. IMO, she has several bpd traits.

- For years she thought my love was not adequate or enough. I lack empathy, care or I even hate her.
- Has anger issues, sometimes with rage and aggression. But most of time she seems desperate before rage/aggression kicks in.
- Cries a lot, worried about our relationship and genuinely seems hurt, even though the reality seems much more calm or less severe than her thinking of it.
- Cannot be reasoned with logic in those times - *I* am responsible for everything, overreacted, have issues etc. If I react/defend/try to explain, it's like adding fuel to the fire.
- Can be rude, sarcastic, jealous and without any empathy when she feels hurt. The problem is, even after 20+ years of being together I STILL cannot sense or predict what kind of hurt are we talking about when it comes. Thus, getting hurt myself as I expected different outcome/treatment than I got.
- People see her as cheerful, joyful, good looking, nice, sweet, innocent (which she is, but just one part of the coin).
- She's a hardworking, highly educated and creative person and a great mother - no doubt about that.

Problems:
- I'm losing it, even though I try hard to get past everything. I'm extremely logical person and I'm losing it when someone accuses me of something that I didn't do or was other way around. When I try to be nice, have a good and working relationship, and then someone throws garbage on me.

For example, she can treat my free time and my trying to help for granted. If I show that I'm hurt, displeased, she will be mean and try to be rude, how she didn't need me in the first place etc. If I react, she will burst crying, saying how she cannot take it anymore, she will leave with our daughter etc.
 
- Every time when pressed against a wall and faced with responsibility for her behavior she uses excuses. Of all kinds - from blatant denying, crying, reflection to spinning the story, telling me how she did the house today, bought X and Y and how I'm being mean considering how much she does, cares, etc. How can I be so cruel to such a lovely wife? It's me. I have the problem.

Please try to assist me, what should I do now? Should I just let her to leave, as she threatens? Should I abandon this all, is there a point? I can't see her going to therapy about this - it's about me needing therapy after all. And I'm sick and tired being accused as a villain. Seeing that my hurting, my emotions don't matter when she feels "threatened". So frustrated and tired.

Hi Manic Miner,

Welcome! 20 years is a very long time. Everything you described definitely sounds like BPD.

Don't worry, you're not the one with the issue. We all experience the blame shifting and projection. It can be a lot to wrap your head around.

However, the one thing she's right about is, you are the one with the problem.  I don't mean this in a way that you have a mental health problem. I mean it that you have a problem in that you need to learn how to manager her behavior, through your reactions.

In my final couple's therapy session, I made the mistake of saying, "You're behavior is the root cause of the problem." The therapist said, "No, you're wrong. You're reactions to her are the cause of the problem." It really pissed me off at the time, because I am fairly logical also. It's a simple if then statement in my opinion. If X occurs, then Y occurs. Y occurring did not cause X to happen. Basic logic, right? However, in our situation X occurring will only initiate an "if else" of YY to engage.

What we need to learn to do is better validation. It's really difficult to do if you are used to using reason in your everyday communication. However, this is what needs to happen. For example, in response to I had a terrible day because of what you said earlier, you should respond with something along the lines of, "Wow, I didn't realize that my statement would be so painful that it ruined your whole day. Thank you for letting me know. I'm glad you allowed me to enjoy the day, anyway. That was very nice of you. I'm really lucky to have you in my life." Say it in as neutral a tone as possible. If it comes off sounding trite, or sarcastic, you'll just make things worse. 

It's definitely the opposite of what you want to do, when they are being disproportionately irrational over the perceived slight. So you see, you do need to address your own behavior, to a certain extent, if you want to try and make this relationship work. After all you actually live in backwards world.

Have you considered seeing a therapist to help you through this difficult relationship?  If not, they can be very beneficial. I suggest you look for one with a lot of experience with dialectical behavioral therapy to help you navigate the treacherous waters you are finding yourself in.

[Manic Miner]

Hi Manic Miner,

Welcome! 20 years is a very long time. Everything you described definitely sounds like BPD.

Don't worry, you're not the one with the issue. We all experience the blame shifting and projection. It can be a lot to wrap your head around.

However, the one thing she's right about is, you are the one with the problem.  I don't mean this in a way that you have a mental health problem. I mean it that you have a problem in that you need to learn how to manager her behavior, through your reactions.

In my final couple's therapy session, I made the mistake of saying, "You're behavior is the root cause of the problem." The therapist said, "No, you're wrong. You're reactions to her are the cause of the problem." It really pissed me off at the time, because I am fairly logical also. It's a simple if then statement in my opinion. If X occurs, then Y occurs. Y occurring did not cause X to happen. Basic logic, right? However, in our situation X occurring will only initiate an "if else" of YY to engage.

What we need to learn to do is better validation. It's really difficult to do if you are used to using reason in your everyday communication. However, this is what needs to happen. For example, in response to I had a terrible day because of what you said earlier, you should respond with something along the lines of, "Wow, I didn't realize that my statement would be so painful that it ruined your whole day. Thank you for letting me know. I'm glad you allowed me to enjoy the day, anyway. That was very nice of you. I'm really lucky to have you in my life." Say it in as neutral a tone as possible. If it comes off sounding trite, or sarcastic, you'll just make things worse. 

Have you considered seeing a therapist to help you through this difficult relationship?  If not, they can be very beneficial. I suggest you look for one with a lot of experience with dialectical behavioral therapy to help you navigate the treacherous waters you are finding yourself in.

Hi EZEarache, thank you! And thanks for your prompt and thorough answer. I really appreciate it.

You are totally right that I have problems with communicating with her at this state. Actually - I fail to communicate when she's into the 'episode' at all.

Here's why I think I fail to do it:

- Nobody confirmed bpd. Every therapist so far acknowledged this as "life problems", "difficult times", "disagreements on both sides", "anger on both sides" etc. This reached the point when I said to our marriage counselor when my spouse denied most of the things I said that really hurt me - you've got to believe me, as I don't have any recorded proof. It evened out as - we both need to work on empathy.
Fair enough. But will it cure anything long-term, if her empathy magically shuts down every time she is threatened and I cannot point back and say "hey, have some empathy for me please?" I cannot even predict what will shut down her rational thinking anymore. It can be a simple word in a sentence that I said, out of nowhere.

- If I knew she had a BPD, I'd be at peace, or so I think. At least to know what I'm fighting for. I still don't know whether this is an uncontrolled mental state or this person is just the way she is.

- I feel losing my sanity and dignity when someone is reflecting things at me I didn't do or felt the opposite. Or by being rude to me just because of some imagined threat. I wonder if I allow this to happen today and apologize for things I didn't do and was actually hurt myself, how can I see this improving tomorrow?

- Endless accusations, even when we eventually reach agreement. I always need to swim the rough sea and face all kinds of winds just to prove or ask something so simple - if that "simple" annoyed her in any way. Something that normal people would finish in 5-10mins, ours take the whole day, as a fight.

- We are in romantic long-term relationship. I'm in my early 40s. I need to feel intimacy and be honest with my soulmate. Want to give and feel love. Want to feel peace and trust in our house. If I'm constantly walking on eggshells, hiding my true thinking about certain issues, being hurt and hiding it... what's the deal to stay in this relationship anyway? The major thing that is grounding me currently is our daughter, which we both love very much.
Make no mistake, I love my spouse too. I just fail to see the long-term, satisfactory resolution of this, for both sides.

To answer your last question, yes, we've been to several therapists. At least 4. None were DBT though. Last one was a psychiatrist and I'll soon go again. She helped me overcome my own temper, to refuse to bite the bait in those times and I can already see the result.

However, I still fail to utter the "right words" and disengage as should. My spouse is extremely smart and can sense my feelings, when I try to escape and just be done with certain benign situations peacefully. She will ask the same question again and demand those answers, until I'm exhausted and some arguing emerges.

It's definitely the opposite of what you want to do, when they are being disproportionately irrational over the perceived slight. So you see, you do need to address your own behavior, to a certain extent, if you want to try and make this relationship work. After all you actually live in backwards world.

Totally true, thank you.

[EZEarache]

Fair enough. But will it cure anything long-term, if her empathy magically shuts down every time she is threatened and I cannot point back and say "hey, have some empathy for me please"? I cannot even predict what will shut down her rational thinking anymore. It can be a simple word in a sentence that I said, out of nowhere.

- If I knew she had a BPD, I'd be at peace, or so I think. At least to know what I'm fighting for. I still don't know whether this is an uncontrolled mental state or this person is just the way she is.

All you can do in your situation is validate and not JADE. I remember feeling the same way about a diagnosis. I have a diagnosis for my exwBPD, now. Honestly, It really didn't make that much of a difference. After our couple's therapist confirmed my suspicions, it just made things more difficult for me to work with her, because there really isn't anything you can do besides validate and not JADE. Chances are she wouldn't even believe the diagnosis anyway. When I tried to nicely broach the subject, all I got back was, "I don't care what you think." She'll probably blame shift it around and say the therapist is a quack. In my case she's written bad reviews online about the therapist. Sucks for the therapist... but it only further validated the diagnosis, LOL.

- I feel losing my sanity and dignity when someone is reflecting things at me I didn't do or felt the opposite. I wonder if I allow this to happen today and apologize for things I didn't do and was actually hurt myself, how can I see this improving tomorrow?

Validation does not require full hearted apologies. You just have to acknowledge that the feelings she is experiencing is painful for her. In the BIFF series they advocate that you actively avoid apologies with high conflict personality types. I've found that if I apologize in the long run it just leads to more apologies. For example I made the self discovery about a year and a half ago, that I was actively giving the silent treatment after one of our fights, and this was in fact a form of emotional abuse. I apologized for it and became mindful not to engage in this sort of behavior again. My apology, put it in her head that I was emotionally abusive all the time. She started accusing me of emotional abuse all the time. Even when there was no malintent on my part. When you validate, try to avoid an active apology, especially if an apology is not in order because you didn't really do anything.

In my case I am still struggling with this. I moved out six months ago. Things have really only digressed from there.  Lately, she has taken to challenging my memory on every major co-parenting issue we have come across. Last week, she started calling me psychotic. I have my own mental health challenges, so when someone makes accusations like that I take them seriously.

- Endless accusations, even when we eventually reach agreement. I always need to swim the rough sea and face all kinds of winds just to prove or ask something so simple - if that "simple" annoyed her in any way. Something that normal people would finish in 5-10mins, ours take the whole day, as a fight.

Only the whole day? You mean it doesn't go on for a week? You must be doing something right!

- We are in romantic long-term relationship. I'm in my early 40s. I need to feel intimacy and be honest with my soulmate. Want to give and feel love. Want to feel peace and trust in our house. If I'm constantly walking on eggshells, hiding my true thinking about certain issues, being hurt and hiding it... what's the deal to stay in this relationship anyway? The major thing that is grounding me currently is our daughter, which we both love very much.
Make no mistake, I love my spouse too. I just fail to see the long-term, satisfactory resolution of this, for both sides.

Oh, I can totally relate to this statement. We have a 15 month old son. As hard as it is to be a single Dad, I'm making the realization from people I've spoken, with both as parents and children of high conflict households, that getting out at such an early age is actually a blessing in disguise. Our baby will only really ever remember mommy and daddy living apart. The trauma will be much reduced. It still sucks, though. I would like nothing more than to be a happy nuclear family. Her words and behavior have made that impossible.

To answer your last question, yes, we've been to several therapists. At least 4. None were DBT though. Last one was a psychiatrist and I'll soon go again. She helped me overcome my own temper, to refuse to bite the bait in those times and I can already see the result.

Great, you absolutely should. It will help you in managing the dysregulated behavior and keep you grounded.

However, I still fail to utter the "right words" and disengage as should. My spouse is extremely smart and can sense my feelings, when I try to escape and just be done with certain benign situations peacefully. She will ask the same question again and demand those answers, until I'm exhausted.

I think if we got your wife and my exGFwBPD into the same location we would all be doomed. Your experiences are very similar to mine. Incredibly intelligent and insightful, and unable to pull herself back once she is determined to get an answer to something. It is next to impossible to back her off once she starts. Once she gets the honest answer, she's even more pissed. Which, of course, is why you didn't want to say anything in the first place. My only recourse was to actively leave the house for a while. Usually she'd still be pissed when I got back, as was I, but then if I was lucky, she would just go to another room and leave me alone.

[Couper]

- Been 20+ years together, have one child.

How old is your child?  The biggest hang-up for me is my two children are still not even teenagers and I feel a need to weather things out for a bit longer yet. 

As is often related here, it seems like 95% of what you wrote is identical to my own experience, including the frame of mind in which you now find yourself.  You have my sympathy.

Even though I figured out how to calm down the cycle of chaos prior to finding this forum, I'm probably not the best person from which to take advice.  Despite the fact that so many individual things are good in my life, my home life is not.  However, there are plenty of more experienced people here that can help point you in the right direction and lots of good tools to study in the archive of this site.  Just having this place to compare notes helps immensely. 

[Manic Miner]

Thanks guys! I wanted to reply to EZEarache and wrote a wall of text, but then deleted it as I need to take a break and step back a bit.

The good thing is, I sorted this out with my spouse - for now. I know it's only temporary, but I read so much on this forum about changing your own behaviour, temper, views, maintaining your position, etc. Also talking directly with you here and working with my therapist, I think I'm on the right track.

I will treat her behaviour as a bpd, even if it's not. Even if it's only some traits of this and that and inherited values of her (troubled) parents. It could be. When I see many of her wrongdoings, I see her mother and father, sometimes a direct copy of their temper and views. The issues she has with them and unrequited love she never quite got from them when she needed it.
I try to understand it, be more compassionate, caring and to listen better, as she seems to suffer a lot in those times (as she does), but also to know to distance myself from it, not take it personally and don't add fire or ignite pointless fights.

I also think we all can learn so much about human relationships with this toolkit. Even without any personality disorder, humans do tend to think in patterns and hold stigmatized views and routines. Understanding the core, being more calm and less reactive can help us all. Or so I think.

After the latest issues she said she learned a lot too. She does care what therapists think, as she listened to many things I explained of what psychiatrist said. So that's a good start. I won't certainly stop here, but at least know my take in this.

Couper, to answer your question, my daughter is 11y old. So pre-teen. Not quite the best time to separate and finally she realized this as well, after long but fruitful talk.

[CoherentMoose]

Hello and welcome.  A good community here.  Have you read Walking on Eggshells?  CoMo

[ForeverDad]

Likely no counselor or other professional will diagnose her without assessing her first.  Maybe you'd get one to agree she shares many of the traits of BPD or another acting-out Personality Disorder, but that wouldn't be a diagnosis either.  Some of us here did get a diagnosis, but that's the small minority.  I was in and out of court for about 8 years — separation, divorce process and post-divorce.  Not once did any professional name a diagnosis.  They danced around all the behaviors but they declined to diagnose.  That's the reality.

So what do the professionals choose to do?  Court does not try to fix anyone, they more or less deal with them as they are.  Court will make decisions based on the documented poor behaviors, thereby setting basic limits.  So, realistically, we have to follow their approach when we seek resolution to our various situations legally, physically and emotionally.  (It is up to you, with your local legal lawyer and collective peer support, to make whatever court orders you get to be as bulletproof as possible.)  At the end of my 8 years dealing with her in court, the court finally wrote in that last decision that she needed counseling, yet stopped there and didn't order it.

A good start is to educate yourself.  On our Tools and Skills Workshops board you can browse a large assortment of educational tools and skills.  I encourage you to read about Boundaries.  Yes, I know, your spouse fights against boundaries.  That's what we all have faced.  So the advice is to turn it around... you set boundaries for yourself, for how YOU respond.  An extremely simplistic outline cut to the bare bones may be, "If you do or don't do ___ then I will do or not do ___."  There are several examples there to describe various scenarios.

Of course, setting realistic boundaries are likely to trigger overreactions, what we call Extinction Bursts, trying to intimidate you to shrink back into prior appeasing behaviors, back into the other's comfort zone.

[Manic Miner]

I started displaying more issues than her. She's keeping her temper quite good, aggression/anger wise. Although passive-aggressive behaviour is there from time to time and her "sad" phase kicked in, in the middle of nowhere. Actually, it was when I thought we were doing better and progressive, parenting, working and all of that.

However, I am struggling with my own temper. I just tend to go bonkers when I hear one more of her excuses, explanations, shouldas and couldas.

Today I was cleaning a custom bike that she borrowed from my friend to try. I asked, told, begged her to clean it and return it to my friend for one full year.

She saw me cleaning it today:

Her: "Oh, thank you for cleaning it for me, but you didn't have to."
Me: "I had. I asked you numerous times to clean and remove it from our terrace for one year. One year!"
Her: "But... I didn't have time. You know I was busy for so many things. I was..."
Me: "You were busy for ONE YEAR to invest half an hour! You think I am not busy and don't have better things to do than to clean a bike you borrowed last year?"
Her: "Stop it, you are not controlling yourself anymore! I will not talk to you now when you say such things to me, please keep quiet!"
Me: Steaming, going bonkers inside.

She probably felt ashamed or what and called my friend to return it herself, while silencing me wherever I tried to say something about this. I'm the one that was wrong, right?

Every effing time she's pressed against the wall same happens. Every time she faces responsibility, it's the bloody traffic, this guy was mean, there was a congestion, I didn't do something, oh those chores, oh the job, oh the Moon wasn't aligned well.

At the same time, I'm the one keeping her back, doing backstage support, patching the holes... while receiving what? Mostly hearing how I don't love or respect her, freshly with new demands or what should be better and improved.

It's like living with a teenager. That's what this is. I'm watching and trying DBT techniques I found on YT myself, from Marsha and Self-Help Toons. It helps a lot, makes so much sense for many issues in life, not just bpd. In fact I think this should be learned in school. But as you can see, I struggle to apply it when the time comes, she still puts me off the rails in a second.

@forever dad, thanks on those tips for boundaries. That will certainly help here.

[Cat Familiar]

I can see you have a tremendous amount of frustration that easily bubbles to the surface when she comes at you with some nonsense. I get it. I, too, was really angry and disappointed when it became obvious that I was dealing with a very difficult spouse, who managed to keep that part under wraps for a long time. I felt duped, deceived, shortchanged…

Your feelings are valid. However, not only is your wife causing difficulty in your life, you are shooting yourself in the foot by your reactions to her.

I say that as someone who did the exact same thing.

How to get past that? Like you, I’m a very logical person. I’m strategic and once it became apparent that my anger was f*ing me up, I realized it was an impediment. Have you read The Art of War?

Though living with a pwBPD can seem like combat, it needn’t be the case. Best to avoid war if possible. Lessons from the 5th century BC are still relevant.

“The art of war teaches us to rely not on the likelihood of the enemy not coming, but on our readiness to receive him.”

The economy of energy is best utilized by avoiding conflict. You sound depleted. Best to spend time in self care and fill up your tank.

[Manic Miner]

I can see you have a tremendous amount of frustration that easily bubbles to the surface when she comes at you with some nonsense. I get it. I, too, was really angry and disappointed when it became obvious that I was dealing with a very difficult spouse, who managed to keep that part under wraps for a long time. I felt duped, deceived, shortchanged…

Yeah, you see it clear then. Sorry to hear that, but glad you managed to overcome this, as it seems.

Your feelings are valid. However, not only is your wife causing difficulty in your life, you are shooting yourself in the foot by your reactions to her. I say that as someone who did the exact same thing.

I know. Actually it's something I work on and try to overcome. But it seems I'm not quite there yet. I invested so much energy to talk to my spouse, to get the right words and just when I felt we reached something, hit some milestone, she showed me that pretty much 70% of that fell short, day after or so, returning to a start. With me being depleted.

At the same time I'm aware that her accusations of me losing my temper are, sadly, valid. And that's a vicious circle. It's like I know the right answer, I know that my thoughts and actions are honest. But I cannot express them easily or at all, because of walking on eggshells and never touching the real issue. Then I try to wing it, trying my best, I think I was heard, I think she was (finally) heard, but it just vanishes, as I said in my previous line.

How to get past that? Like you, I’m a very logical person. I’m strategic and once it became apparent that my anger was f*ing me up, I realized it was an impediment. Have you read The Art of War?
“The art of war teaches us to rely not on the likelihood of the enemy not coming, but on our readiness to receive him.”
The economy of energy is best utilized by avoiding conflict. You sound depleted. Best to spend time in self care and fill up your tank.

I didn't read that, I did read The War of Art . xD

Anyway, again, it's true. My armoury or radars seem to fall short now, I am depleted.
Yes I do love her. Yes I'd miss her if/when we separated. After all, we have been 20+ years together, in much happier times. We've seen both the good and bad and always managed to stay close and connected, somehow. Not anymore.

I'm sad she can't see 5% of her behaviour and turmoil she creates, even in good times. And I'd be tremendously sad when/if my daughter starts living with her. But I'm so fed up of this crap. I know who I am, I know how empathetic being I am, how caring I can be. How I never was jealous, always supportive and proud of her achievements. Even though I've been told zillion times how evil and cruel man I am.

I also know that I'm a caring father that tries his best to cheer and spend quality and fun time with his little girl that has impaired vision. But for my wife it's never enough. And it won't ever be. When I told her how much time I invested with our daughter while she was on her job, doing all stuff myself, her response was "That's what fathers do. You didn't do any favour to me." My response to that was "You shouldn't take anyone's good deeds for granted, as nothing ever is."
In the past she at least acknowledged some of her behaviour, took some responsibility, knew when she went over the top, apologized. Not anymore. It's always other factors + me.

[Cat Familiar]

It seems as if both of you are in a stalemate. As we often say here, it’s up to the *non* to be the emotional leader.

How to do that when you are so out of juice?

Rather than continuing to walk on eggshells, try one tool— Don’t be invalidating


Often you never know what will set off a pwBPD (person with BPD). It could be a word, a glance, looking away for a moment, a sigh, whatever…. They are going to get upset at something an emotionally healthy person would never notice.

So trying to avoid upsetting them is destined to fail.

They have a high need for validation. But how to do that once the relationship has deteriorated and they look at kind words with suspicion? Validation can be tricky even in the best of circumstances. It’s hard to guess what their prevailing emotion is and to support them in feeling the way they do. Much can go wrong and it can backfire. Validation works best when the relationship is on a more even keel.

Best to learn how not to invalidate. It takes much less energy to do that and used consistently over time, it can mend fraying threads in the relationship.

[Manic Miner]

Thanks a lot on that. Another lesson/tool to examine and digest. Those are life skills, as is DBT.

I have three questions though:

1. If we are prepared for war (our readiness to receive the enemy, so to say), with answers based on every repeating behavioral bpd patterns, their perceived threats, how can we ever be natural and spontaneous with these people? Is that possible?

2. Should I remain with compassion and understanding even when it's so evident that she's passive-aggressive, sarcastic or is making fun of me on some personal level, like jokes where you just sense something is behind it?

3. I've seen a lot of tips on this forum from people that say it's their "ex bpd", either divorced or separated. Some even called their spontaneous ex-bpd leaving "a blessing". Now don't get me wrong, they have probably been to hell and back. But I do wonder are those tips really useful? I'm not trying to judge, I just struggle with the same thought myself. Can we live a normal life with bpd partner, ever again?

In my case it's so evident the "idealization" phase ended for me. My psychiatrist even said (though dismissed bpd diagnosis I asked long ago) I was annoying my wife so much with my way of doing things. She said my wife probably went on a fast lane with her job, with her new thought of living after being in a mother role so long and I was left grounded. To that I responded with - yeah, but while she's high, someone is keeping her back down there - me. Taking care of our daughter while she's on a job, doing part-time job myself, maintaining our flat, gardening and paying the bills.

[Cat Familiar]

1. If we are prepared for war (our readiness to receive the enemy, so to say), with answers based on every repeating behavioral bpd patterns, their perceived threats, how can we ever be natural and spontaneous with these people? Is that possible?

It takes practice, just like learning a new skill. When you first learned to drive a stick shift, you had to be mindful of a lot of factors you needn’t have attended to when driving an automatic. After a while, you didn’t have to think about it at all.

2. Should I remain with compassion and understanding even when it's so evident that she's passive-aggressive, sarcastic or is making fun of me on some personal level, like jokes where you just sense something is behind it?

Think about it this way—she’s just as burned out as you are. You, however, have more capacity to make things better, as you’re not dealing with mental illness. Therefore it’s your job to lead things out of the ugliness. Sorry.

Did you watch the video? He explains that lots of time invalidation happens exactly when we are trying to be kind to our partners. For some reason, they misperceive our intentions.

I’ll tell you from personal experience, I’ve invalidated the hell out of my husband and some friends because I’m very logical and unemotional. I understand it now, but at the time I couldn’t figure out why people were getting pissed off at me, when I was only trying to *help*.

What I was doing was helping them the way I would have wanted to be helped if I were in their shoes—through a rational, logical explanation.

How they experienced that was: 1. That I thought I was *better* than them.  2. That I didn’t care about their feelings  3. That I had it *all figured out* so I must be some narcissist or something. 4. That I was telling them they should just get over it  and undoubtedly countless other interpretations of my responses.

3. I've seen a lot of tips on this forum from people that say it's their "ex bpd", either divorced or separated. Some even called their spontaneous ex-bpd leaving "a blessing". Now don't get me wrong, they have probably been to hell and back. But I do wonder are those tips really useful? I'm not trying to judge, I just struggle with the same thought myself. Can we live a normal life with bpd partner, ever again?

Yes, things can be made so much better by utilizing the tools available here. That said, the more affected a partner is with BPD, the more difficult it is.

I’ve been married to two husbands with BPD. The first’s behavior was quite out of control: multiple infidelities, substance abuse, illegal activities, financial irresponsibility, violence, emotional and verbal abuse.

The second is a well-respected professional whose vice is drinking a bit much. He has some traits of BPD, but not the full gamut, and was diagnosed by the psychologist with whom we did couples counseling as having a personality disorder. She told me that when I saw her for individual counseling some years later. She wouldn’t specify, though I knew she saw narcissistic traits but most of the BPD traits were only evident in the way he behaved with me, out of public view.

I had no knowledge of BPD in my first marriage, and even if I did, I don’t know that I could have saved myself from the train wreck. I have been out of contact with him for years, but every once in a while, I get a call from a creditor trying to track him down for a bill he’s skipped out on. So obviously he’s not gotten his life together.

With my current husband, I initially was furious when the cloak dropped and he revealed himself to be so brittle and dysfunctional. He managed to keep the illusion going for a few years after we got married, and then he revealed his true self.

I’d had enough of mentally ill people in my life, as my mother was seriously impaired and the thought I’d once again married someone so difficult was hard to deal with. So I had very little patience at that point, and a heck of a lot of resistance when I landed here and was told I had to change.

I was really angry. Why me? I’m not the one with the problem!

Well, yes, I was the one with the problem in that I either had to work through things, end the relationship, or continue to complain.

So I chose to work on things. It didn’t turn around overnight, but now things are great! We seldom have conflicts, even after sheltering together a year and a half during the pandemic. I’m genuinely happy and he seems happy too, at least much of the time. Still there are hints of BPD, but I don’t give it any energy and it goes away soon.

Yes, things can get remarkably better. It takes work, willingness, and letting go of preconceived  concepts of what you think a marriage partner or relationship should be.

I cannot talk as openly about some things with my husband as I can with my friends. But any relationship has its limits. Just like being in a relationship with someone who is physically disabled, there are things that are off the table.

And the same with me. I don’t like being a passenger in his sports car. I’m very content with staying at home on the ranch and taking care of my animals. He’d prefer to travel (in non-Covid times). We accept each other’s differences. It is disappointing for both of us, but the good outweighs that.

[Manic Miner]

I'm so glad it worked out for you! Your story is probably the happiest on this forum I read so far, encouraging others to not give up easily and try fix things.

Alas, I don't think my marriage is salvageable on a more permanent basis at this point. It could be, with me changing perspective so much. Trust on both sides has deteriorated. She has her reasons, I have mine.

Like you, I'm beyond tired of metal illnesses - my father is a narcissist, my sister histrionic. My mother, her parents and her family were the best and caring people I've ever known. They are responsible for making me sane, teaching me good values and providing me a happy, loving childhood (as happy as possibly could be with a narc dad). Sadly, all have died.

And now my wife with her bpd-like traits... I started seeing her behaviour long ago, but it kind of worked before. However, it was at the moment I got a diagnosis for my father, when I was learning to cope and heal myself from manipulations and roller-coasters he did for years. I couldn't take that BS anymore and went no-contact with him. I guess when you start acknowledging and seeing things, you cannot hide similar stuff. It's like having an infra-vision and seeing things much deeper now, being oversensitive too. Sadly, I cannot explain this to my wife, she cannot be reasoned with this at all.

Then what gotten me seriously sad in our relationship was the acknowledgement that there was not much room for my own suffering. It's the feeling that she has "exclusivity" in that area. For years I have been trying to meet her needs and to keep nuclear family going strong and be happy. However, when I myself needed space, to process the separation from my father, as I felt then he physically died for me, I was sad and angry because of everything he's done, I had to argue with her, fighting for place to understand my mood and leave me alone.

Further, she added fuel to the fire, constantly reminding me how bad my father was (like she was the greatest victim there again and like that wasn't my only parent). She tried to soothe me sometimes, I'll give her that, but always measuring, struggling with her own demons - the bpd-like traits. How can I possibly be the one that needs understanding and space so much (speaking of weeks, not months, not years!)? If I am, better keep myself well soon and keep going. That place is reserved for her, at least from time to time. I'm actually glad I didn't get depression and fairly quickly recovered, considering all.

So, staying in this relationship would mean acknowledgement that I'm here alone in times like those. Self-helping, self-understanding, self-healing. I can't help but fantasize sometimes how another woman could be more honest and supportive, without adding fuel to the fire, without the need to explain the obvious.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your story, it's really helpful. I'm also glad you get along even when you are different. I myself have a lot to learn here, though will do step by step.

[Cat Familiar]

I’m sorry you’ve lost your family members who were so kind and supportive of you.    You we’re blessed to have people who loved you and helped you through the difficulties of having a narcissistic father. So many of us here on this forum who had a relative with a personality disorder have married people with BPD.

It makes sense, we grew up in a circumstance where it was an ambient feature of our childhood. So when we found a partner who displayed some of those same characteristics, they felt like family, for better or worse.

I know I was so grateful to find someone who seemed to really like me, approve of me, compliment me, etc. It was balm to my soul after growing up with a hypercritical mother, who at times could also be very loving. Of course, I didn’t realize that this wonderful appreciation was just the idealization phase, with the devaluing phase yet to come.

It could be that your wife, even under the best of circumstances is not capable of providing the emotional support you want and need. Perhaps she is someone who will always take up all the oxygen in the room and not ever consider your needs. You can understand this is a possibility from witnessing your father’s behavior.

Or it could be that the relationship has gotten to a point where she, like you, is treading water, exhausted, hoping for a lifeline.

It is true that we are alone and that we need to understand ourselves, help ourselves, heal ourselves. We cannot expect another to do that for us, though it’s nice when we can share our journey with someone who listens and understands.

Perhaps it is possible that your wife could develop her emotional intelligence capacity enough to be a supportive partner. As it stands now, it doesn’t sound as if she has the motivation to do so; she is too focused upon her own neediness.

But what do you suppose could happen should you begin to make changes in how you relate to her?

Change begets change. One thing I can guarantee is that if you begin to implement the Tools at the top of this page, you can lessen the conflict.

Maybe it won’t be enough for you to want to remain in this marriage. Or maybe it will begin to open the door for her to become more compassionate and considerate of you. Unless you try, you’ll never know.

One thing I do know is that you love your daughter. And for her sake, it would be beneficial to reduce the conflict between yourself and your wife. You fully understand what it’s like growing up in a home with a parent with a personality disorder, and you’re motivated to lessen the damage on her, otherwise you wouldn’t be participating here. You didn’t mention her age, but she sounds young, and whether you stay or leave, there will be many years of coparenting in the future.

And here’s the most compelling reason to begin to make some changes with your wife: if you don’t change some of your patterns, it’s easy to fall into another dysfunctional relationship with a personality-disordered partner.

Don’t just take my word on this. There are countless other stories where people have gotten involved with more than one romantic partner with BPD.

So maybe look upon your relationship with your wife as an opportunity to repair patterns that may have stemmed from childhood with a narcissistic parent, patterns you no longer want to continue in the future. Whether she joins you in personal growth is anyone’s guess, but ultimately you will be learning things that make you a better father, a better husband or maybe a better romantic partner for a more emotionally healthy woman.

[Manic Miner]

Thank you for your time and compassion to talk to me on a personal level here. Means a lot. You said more useful things and strategies than several therapists I've been to and I'm not exaggerating.

Speaking of my father, yes. However, since some time passed without seeing him, I can think more clearly now. Sister and I mostly suffered by his ways of treating his wife, our mother, by having affairs and separate lives while maintaining family-man attitude. It felt fake and insincere to say the least. Since my mother was a true empath, he exploited her good behaviour and her endless love and understandings. And for that I could never forgive him.
But, since he was working a lot and away in his 2nd life, the three of us and my grandparents living nearby were mostly alone and our little community was healthy. That was a blessing in disguise. I do know my mother suffered a lot because of her broken marriage and it was not healthy for her at all. I felt that deeply. However, she refused to divorce from him, despite being from a wealthy family and a doctor. It is what it is. He never neglected his kids (us) in terms of financial support. We always had good education and everything we needed for a good life, financially, good house, to start a job, etc. After our mother died, he did try to compensate her a lot. I felt that.

Even when I got married, wife and I were at our beginnings then and after couple of years he bought us a flat, a car and helped us equip our flat. My wife however was dismayed as he bought us a flat on his name first, in case of divorce. I too was sick of his suspicions and felt controlled then, but... I hate to say it, but maybe he saved my butt here. There was a time during her 'episodes' when she suggested me to start living somewhere else. Now imagine if she, in her state of mind persuaded the law to kick me out somehow? She talks BS in that state, but however slim were the chances, as a mother she could do it or even use it as a threat. But she cannot now and knows it.

Taking all into account, it would be totally unfair to dismiss him entirely and say that he never did anything right or good for us. However, both wife and I got tired of his own manipulations, affairs, gossiping and fake great-grandpa role he tried to establish. It was mainly about his life, but I couldn't manage him in a healthier way. The only way was NC then. I will talk to my therapist about this further, whether or not is possible to have some contact with him or not, without falling into the trap again. He's my only living parent, reaching old age, but I'm aware of certain boundaries now that cannot be crossed under any circumstances.

However, my wife hates him and mocks him sarcastically like he's the worst man in existence, even though he was never bad to her in person! That also hurt like hell for me. I won't start a story of my in-laws here, but let's just say that I had much happier and healthier childhood and that my family (incl. my narc father) treated my wife-to-be like daughter when we were young and when she had troubles in her own family. So that all felt like a slap in the face.

It could be that your wife, even under the best of circumstances is not capable of providing the emotional support you want and need. Perhaps she is someone who will always take up all the oxygen in the room and not ever consider your needs. You can understand this is a possibility from witnessing your father’s behavior.
Or it could be that the relationship has gotten to a point where she, like you, is treading water, exhausted, hoping for a lifeline.

You nailed it, both are true. She is exhausted and hurt, no doubt about that. She's hoping for a lifeline, searching. But she does take most of the oxygen in the room, though differently. My father was loud, cracking jokes or gossiping even in inappropriate times, trying to steal the spotlight. Tiring, annoying but superficial. She is super needy, not evident at first, but you just start to feel it after a while. She is jealous when I feel better than her, if she feels bad or invested some energy to be ok. She almost wants me to taste her suffering a bit or to be around, always taking her back, while she does what she does. She's hardworking, but hardly someone that is taking my needs into account now. Whether that could change, we'll see. We did use to see much better and happier days, so there's a hope.

Perhaps it is possible that your wife could develop her emotional intelligence capacity enough to be a supportive partner. As it stands now, it doesn’t sound as if she has the motivation to do so; she is too focused upon her own neediness.

Perhaps. You described her perfectly. The problem I see here is that I feel her needs are never truly satisfied. Like there's not a certain milestone we have to reach. Wherever we do reach something, next thing pops up. It's like a living a life where nothing is enough to feel truly happy, satisfied and grounded, even though we live relatively simple lives, considering the time we live in.

There were many times when I reached a therapist without knowing to pinpoint the exact problem, except to explain the situation. Most of the core values, core needs as a family we do have. We have no mortgage, no debt, we have our own flat, a car, no affairs, no substance abuse, no reckless spending, have enough money to live modestly but nicely and on our own. And then you see her, like the world is falling apart. Hello?

But what do you suppose could happen should you begin to make changes in how you relate to her?
Change begets change. One thing I can guarantee is that if you begin to implement the Tools at the top of this page, you can lessen the conflict.

Absolutely. I too did a lot of invalidation. I still do, with my own temper, when I hear some unjustified demands and accusations. I tend to shutoff. My therapist asked me to count to 10 before saying anything in that moment. I watched the video you sent above and it was eye opening and good. The presenter was as funny as was thoughtful. I found myself there a lot.
I'm trying to implement those changes as much as I can and to heal myself too. The problem I currently face are the constant mood changes. She can be all nice to me, talk to me about something, I try to be as validating as possible, then go into silent treatment or passive aggressive mode. Within hours. Literally nothing bad happened between. Or wake up being nice and vice versa. It's exhausting for sure.

Maybe it won’t be enough for you to want to remain in this marriage. Or maybe it will begin to open the door for her to become more compassionate and considerate of you. Unless you try, you’ll never know.
One thing I do know is that you love your daughter. And for her sake, it would be beneficial to reduce the conflict between yourself and your wife. You fully understand what it’s like growing up in a home with a parent with a personality disorder, and you’re motivated to lessen the damage on her, otherwise you wouldn’t be participating here. You didn’t mention her age, but she sounds young, and whether you stay or leave, there will be many years of coparenting in the future.

And here’s the most compelling reason to begin to make some changes with your wife: if you don’t change some of your patterns, it’s easy to fall into another dysfunctional relationship with a personality-disordered partner.

So maybe look upon your relationship with your wife as an opportunity to repair patterns that may have stemmed from childhood with a narcissistic parent, patterns you no longer want to continue in the future. Whether she joins you in personal growth is anyone’s guess, but ultimately you will be learning things that make you a better father, a better husband or maybe a better romantic partner for a more emotionally healthy woman.

Now this quote is one of the wisest stuff I've read in a while. Should be noted and useful for others as well! Thank you.
My daughter is 11, she has impaired vision and mild case of cerebral palsy (she can walk by herself), so we as parents are here to stay, together or not. She loves us both and is incredibly witty and smiling child that likes to make jokes and have fun wherever she can. She's my main grounding stone here now.

[Manic Miner]

Now my wife threatens divorce and is actively searching a house with real-estate agent.

The spark that started this again was asking some banal question that didn't end up well.

W: Do you want to go with us (her and daughter) on a birthday of xyz?
Me: I'm not sure, at what time is it today?
W: Why? Do YOU have something else to do (asking with sarcastic voice)?
Daughter: Yeah, at what time is it?
Me: Both daughter and I would like to know the time now - me saying jokingly.
W: At 5 or 6 or 7pm. I told you after she finishes school, later this day or evening! Not sure why does it matter and why are you being such a pest!
Me (saying with slightly raised voice): It's totally normal to know the time when you are asking someone!
W: Uttering some nonsense.
Me: Repeating the above.
W: I DON'T WANT YOU ANYWHERE NEAR ME ON THAT BIRTHDAY! WE ARE GOING ALONE! That's it, You are mean and rude AGAIN! We are moving out as soon as possible.

So what do you suggest? Any point investing a millimeter of my strength? Is this salvageable at all at this point? And is there a point? You see, if I somehow manage this, next day will come and there will be a simple question like the above, that I honestly don't know how to answer and NOT break the eggshell.

Yeah, if I would be totally emotionless or didn't raise my voice at all, that would have helped, maybe. But should I be on medications 24/7 just so I cannot ever raise my voice in any way? I literally didn't raise my voice to argue, I was just stating and emphasizing my question.

[Cat Familiar]

Anything can be a trigger for someone with BPD. It’s impossible to avoid, though we can minimize it over time by utilizing the Tools.

What do you suppose her emotion was during that verbal exchange?

These sorts of interactions typically don’t trigger someone who is emotionally healthy. Let’s delve into how things devolved in your interaction:

“It’s totally normal to know the time when you are asking someone!”

Up to this point, you might have been able to turn things around, as your previous comment was said playfully.

It didn’t help that you raised your voice, but also can you see how this comment was defensive and justified asking your question about the time?

Have you seen this article about JADE?  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0

JADEing (Justifying, Arguing, Defending, Explaining) is like throwing gas on the fire when used with someone with BPD. With anyone else, it might be OK, maybe not optimal, but it won’t get the same volcanic reaction that a person with BPD will give.

Why is that? To understand this, you have to recognize how shaky the emotional foundation is for a pwBPD (person with BPD). In addition to feeling unworthy and self loathing, they often feel so ungrounded and insecure that they don’t feel *real*.

Of course it’s *normal* to know the time of an event, but that sentence could have led her to think that you were telling her that she wasn’t *normal*, that there was something wrong with her—likely a message she has not only heard all her life, but has replayed countless times in her internal dialog.

Meanwhile, you just wanted to know the damn time.

And she thought you were telling her that she was awful.


Is this salvageable? Yes, but it will take a lot of work on your part.

Is it worth it? Only you know the answer to that question.

The most difficult part for me was to get over my own anger and resistance to what I supposed was a lot of heavy lifting. Yes, it takes quite a bit of energy at first to learn some of the tools. I suggest trying the “Don’t be invalidating” one first.

But then, once you start to get comfortable using this tool, the surprising thing is realizing that it takes much less energy than you might previously have thought.

I learned that by not saying certain things, I could manage to avoid a lot of conflict. For example: Our kitchen is fairly small and it’s easy to get in each other’s way. I’ve worked in restaurants and when I cook with friends, I never have this problem, only with my husband.

What happens when he gets in my way or I get in his, instead of an easy comment, “Just behind you” or a friendly tap on the arm, he will back off and stand six feet away.

He does it with such a dramatic flair, and I find it really annoying. It’s easy to interpret it as this narcissistic display that *you're in my way* but I don’t think this is really what’s behind it. Probably more like “I don’t want to get in your way.”

So this morning, I caught myself before I said anything about it. I almost said “It’s hard to believe you ever worked in a restaurant before.” Apparently he was a short order cook for a brief period when he was in college.

Instead, I looked at my own emotion, annoyance, and feeling distanced, rejected, and asked myself, “How important is this really?”

When I realized that nothing good would come of my comment and imagined how he would feel attacked and shamed, I knew it was best not to say anything. If I had, I could have predicted he would be upset for hours, and for what? He’d probably do the same thing even more.

Looking further into the dynamic, this behavior of his which felt offensive to me, probably stemmed from him feeling unworthy.

Argument averted, I became more aware of one of my own triggers, and mindful that my interpretation of his behavior may not be accurate at times.

And I SAVED A LOT OF ENERGY.

[poppy2]

Hi manic miner,

I just wanted to say that I read up on this conversation and I'm rooting for you. I feel you've got a wonderful advisor in Cat Familiar and I really hope that with time your situation will improve.

Also, the repetition of family dynamics / narc parents in BPD partner choice * face palm*. I'm so glad I found this forum and can totally affirm what CF says in terms of really learning about us and what we can control in terms of these dynamics. There's hope in that.

[Manic Miner]

@Cat
Again, very thorough, in-depth explanation, thanks! What you said here I'd never connect myself, I thought it was because of my voice, and not about word "normal" or consequences out of it. Just wow.

Your story also helped as I'm practicing NOT telling things more and more. But the sad part is, now that I've learned a lot about this issue or general way people behave, I concluded that I used gas more than water 6 or 7 out of 10 to extinguish fire.

What I thought was reasonable, easy to understand, "normal" to behave was not. So why am I sad? Because I reached the point where things are very bad and who knows if they could ever return to relatively normal values with trust on both sides. I'm sad I didn't know this earlier and adjusted myself accordingly. But it is what it is. Acceptance is next I guess.

@Poppy
Thanks a lot buddy! Speaking of NPD parent and a partner, I have to say that wife and I met when we were very young. Like less than 20y of age. We were innocent as it gets. When I turn my memories back, I can see some parallels with early BPDs like she was more or or less always fearing of me rejecting her or not loving her. Always. Or me being on a pedestal, like she really loved me (which she did). But the truth is, back then I thought we were just kids and without any experience. She being feminine or fragile needed more love or so to say.

So I cannot really say 'oh I chose her because my father was a NPD', not in this case, because we were both far too young and naive to know anything about it. She was my first love too and I was hers. We still didn't have ourselves completely formed back then, but had some really good time together and that was all that mattered to us then.

[Manic Miner]

So I called my psychiatrist to tell her about the issue of yesterday. She was assertive in a way that couldn't say much over the phone, but advised me to try marriage counseling, before any divorce or wife moving out. It would be bad for our daughter and ourselves (long way ahead of her if he chooses that road - her words), but I couldn't force anyone to stay if she was about to leave. I agreed.

Today I tried to talk to my wife, as compassionate and caring as I could. I heard stories and stories. Some were true, some were taken out of context, displaying only an emotion that persisted, some were exactly fuel-to-the-fire from my side, which I deeply regret now that I know better. All those things I said to her, how I didn't trust her, was mean, disapproving, she didn't feel good in our home, her needs were not met, nor did I care. I didn't try the pancakes she made few days ago (I tried not to laugh so I put my hand on my face), I didn't do much traveling, we argued, didn't greet her when she finished some courses (which I did but... yeah...) and on and on.

But she's cannot take it anymore and she already rented an apartment. Is it true or not, I cannot say, but could be. Anyway, she refused counseling as "there is no point anymore", "we had our time to fix things", "I was mean and didn't hear her" etc. I heard those stories every - single - time I tried to go to counseling with her. The only exception was the last time when she called me, but I refused for 2 weeks as was extremely tired to talk.

So... I insisted that, whatever the outcome, I cannot support her in moving out and disagree on that completely (psychiatrist told me to emphasize on that, to know that she's responsible and alone in this). I do know that she has her parents as her enablers, esp. her mother that never questioned her decisions about anything lately. So if she got their support, it would be much tougher task for me. And I'm 99% certain she has their support.

The only thing I said I would support was my daughter, without any conditions. And to know that it's nothing personal against her, just that I think our relationship is fixable with counseling.
Basically, I want to give myself time to do things, that's my hope about counseling. I know it's a long road ahead of me, but need to stop this train going backwards first with all of us in the passenger carriage hitting some greater rock.

What I've also seen, she genuinely feels hurt and suffering. Not playing games. But it's all about her. She did apologize for all bad and maddening things she said to me and my family (and those were some crazy sh stuff), but absolutely had no capacity to connect how her behaviour could affect me and our relationship. Zero. Nor did she remember that she was hostile and physically violent more than a month ago. "You know I don't do such things anymore and haven't done for a long time!" She thought that happened years ago, but I carefully made her remember it was this September. Overall, yes, it's less than it used to be, but far from "haven't done for a long time!". To no use, but still.

[Manic Miner]

I would like some help about what to actually talk to a marriage counselor or how to approach this? She sees us as a healthy couple with some issues. She didn't see her behaviour at all. I've already seen my wife there - super kind, thinking and trying 10x as hard to stay calm and rational. She is ashamed of her behaviour deep down, she either projects or forgets. So she does not tell that anyone, even the therapist.

Me? I tended to be as rational as I could, but showed my temper, as my guidance was to try to solve the issues and show things the way as they were, not to hide my true self or claim something didn't happen if it did. But I was wrong. I was in disbelief and angry about what my wife said there, neglecting or saying stuff that hurt me didn't happen this year or so. Showed zero responsibility. That was before I started learning a lot about bpd, tools and issues. Now I know better.

I already see it will all be about me and how I behave. Of course I'm about to change my own behavior for the better. Now I know what should and shouldn't do. But I cannot state my true reasons, nor explain or say how irrational fears, swearwords and crazy accusations affected my mood and everything. I cannot provoke my wife at all or this is all going down the drain.

So, those that have been to marriage counseling with the knowing about this problem and some coping tools, how to avoid JADE while having any useful conversation there, but also avoiding a doormat mode? Any suggestions? Thanks 

[ForeverDad]

What popped into my mind instantly was:  Boundaries.

Simple.  Basic.  Little need to justify, argue, defend, explain.  Over on our Tools & Skills Workshop board we have some excellent articles on boundaries.  You already know boundaries are resisted by acting-out persons with BPD.  Well, these boundaries are for us, for our responses.  Here's a hint I often use to describe the difference.  "If you do or don't do ___ then I will do or not do ___."  It's never that simple but that's one way to describe how our response can be the boundary.

[once removed]

W: Do you want to go with us (her and daughter) on a birthday of xyz?
Me: I'm not sure, at what time is it today?
W: Why? Do YOU have something else to do (asking with sarcastic voice)?
Daughter: Yeah, at what time is it?
Me: Both daughter and I would like to know the time now - me saying jokingly.
W: At 5 or 6 or 7pm. I told you after she finishes school, later this day or evening! Not sure why does it matter and why are you being such a pest!
Me (saying with slightly raised voice): It's totally normal to know the time when you are asking someone!
W: Uttering some nonsense.
Me: Repeating the above.
W: I DON'T WANT YOU ANYWHERE NEAR ME ON THAT BIRTHDAY! WE ARE GOING ALONE! That's it, You are mean and rude AGAIN! We are moving out as soon as possible.

Yeah, if I would be totally emotionless or didn't raise my voice at all, that would have helped, maybe. But should I be on medications 24/7 just so I cannot ever raise my voice in any way?

the thing, i think, to understand, is that this sort of conversation is more a product of the relationship and its deterioration than the level of your voice or hers.

when a couple, any couple, has diminished trust to this extent, they fight about anything and everything. just breathing triggers each other. thats what that exchange sounds like.

granted, any couple where one person wakes up on the wrong side of the bed can have that kind of exchange here and there. i dont think thats what we are talking about though.

to that point, my advice wouldnt really be about one or two things you might have said or done, or not said or done, in that one exchange. you cant resolve conflict and long term resentment and distrust that way. you have to look at the much bigger picture.

[CoherentMoose]

Heh,
when a couple, any couple, has diminished trust to this extent, they fight about anything and everything. just breathing triggers each other. thats what that exchange sounds like.

That reminds me of a story.  I have a friend who at the end of her marriage, was woken up from a dead sleep by her STBX and told "You're stealing my air!" and forced her to roll over. 

When the ship is bashing on the rocks, communication suffers.  When under stress, I remind myself of what I have full control of: How I interpret, how I react, and what I choose to say in response. 

As I get older and more seasoned, I'm finding it best to slow reaction, remain neutral, and to say as little a possible.  I'm a very, very snarky person with a biting wit and that tendency has not served me well.  When I feel myself flooding, I attempt to calmly state to myself "I can think anything I want, but I also can choose not to say it".  Or...I say "...Interesting..." or "Interesting, let me think about that for a minute" to provide time between my initial emotional response and a more thought out response.  That gives me time to understand the situation and consider responses that will lead to a solution.  In some cases though, there is no response that will diffuse the situation.  For those times, I'm finding it best to be quiet for me.  Let the storm rage outside of me.   

Also, allow yourself a little grace.  Goodness knows you deserve it dealing with your situation. 

Be well.  CoMo

[Bch42]

Mm, what you describe is very much like my wife of 15 yrs.  High achiever, attractive, charming, personable. I feel for you.

I never understood why this relationship was so different and difficult than others. I went to counseling for years, and learned about BPD.  While there’s been no formal diagnosis, the evidence is clear.

One of many examples:

Me:  “Hi dear, I’m on my way home, stopping at X to pick up a sandwich.  Can I bring you anything?

Her: “Oh thanks so much. Nope, I’ve already had lunch. See you in a bit”

At Home : Her: “ Hi, that looks good, did you bring me a sandwich?”

Me: “Um, no. I called and you didn’t want one”

Her: “ Well, you should have known to bring me one anyway!“

You’re always being set up to lose. I expect that now.

But learning about BPD  helped me understand, and gave me a bit more compassion.  And I learned that I could not react normally to bad behavior.   But I also could not excuse it.

It’s frustrating, and I liken it to Groundhog Day, the movie.

In a normal argument or discussion, you come away thinking, “ok, we hashed that out and agreed to compromise, or
agree to disagree, or something.  But we dealt with it”

W BPD, you start again every day the same. As if what you argued about never happened. It’s maddening.

And more so because you go a while and things are normal.  That gives you hope. Then the most minor perceived slight sets off a disproportionate reaction.

Which means you can never have a trusting, close and intimate relationship w them.  (That’s also your fault…”). Because the outbursts are a kick in the stomach

I have a teenager left at home. Im not sure what will happen, but I suspect there will come a day when we part ways.

In the meantime, I try to remain calm, encouraging, and upbeat.  Understanding that no amount of praise will be enough.

I no longer can participate in certain things. Can’t have family or friends to my home.  She will say inappropriate things,
Insult them, and embarrass me. So I gave up on that.

You may read a lot of hopeful messages. But the evidence I’ve read suggests it doesn’t get better with time.

A bummer, but I do my best for now bc I need to protect my daughter and make sense of things for her.

I wish you the best.

[Manic Miner]

In a normal argument or discussion, you come away thinking, “ok, we hashed that out and agreed to compromise, or
agree to disagree, or something.  But we dealt with it”

W BPD, you start again every day the same. As if what you argued about never happened. It’s maddening.

And more so because you go a while and things are normal.  That gives you hope. Then the most minor perceived slight sets off a disproportionate reaction.

Which means you can never have a trusting, close and intimate relationship w them.  (That’s also your fault…”). Because the outbursts are a kick in the stomach

I don't even count how many times I had long talks with my W, thinking we finally agreed about something. Woohoo. But the next time we needed to talk (like, tomorrow), it would be exactly the same. I'd need to repeat the exact same sentences, exact same explanations, thoughts, reassurances etc. I learned not to even care, as I know it's only for now, literally for today or next few hours.

I would want to "warn" guys that are in bpd relationship, searching for therapists. Well, I learned the hard way that even if therapists have good references, doesn't mean he or she will actually do good.

I took some time contemplate and remembered the last time my wife had a depression and really asked a professional for help to get her life back on track. I remember that day, it was in 2017. She was really ready for it. She'd do anything therapist said to help herself. But sadly, the psychiatrist FAILED to see the root cause, instead blamed something that was the effect, not the cause. She gave her wrong reasons, wrong facts, assuming she was perfectly normal human being and steered her in another direction. My wife took her advice and tried to fix herself based on what was thought. She cured her depression, indeed, but at what cost?

Fast forward 2022, not only our marriage is collapsing, her thinking is way off the limits for a relationship. Before 2017. she was sensitive, sometimes depressed, but was much more honest, could apologize, talked about her feelings and emotions. We would hug, be intimate. Now it's all hidden behind the masks. Putting herself and her needs way above mine, entitlement, power-games, unable to see any wrongdoings and further engaging in bpd-traits.
And above else, she is beyond tired of going to therapy and seeking additional help. Her main excuse now is "well I did my therapy for months/years, what else do you want? Maybe you should go!" And for that I cannot blame her, as it does have some truth in it.

I feel bad because I didn't sense or know then what I know now. And feel sad because I think she or we wasted a perfect opportunity for her to really get back on track, as I read how much it is hard for bpd-guys to accept, let alone go to therapy. It is what a bad therapist with good reputation can do - waste a precious time and set you on a wrong course. I can only imagine what a good therapist that offered her DBT or CBT would do - I'd probably have a functioning wife now and meaningful relationship.

[Cat Familiar]

It’s true that therapists can mis-diagnose and not recognize signs of BPD. BPD manifests more prominently in intimate relationships, thus spouses and families can be much more cognizant of it than people on the outside.

In addition, since BPD is a shame-based disorder, often pwBPD who enter into therapy don’t fully disclose themselves to the therapist, and present their “best” selves, while blaming partners and parents for their *faults*.

At the beginning of therapy, there is a need to establish trust with the pwBPD, and thus, much of the sessions can be about validating, rather than challenging their model of the world. The frequent consequence of a therapist trying to get their BPD client to see other ways of thinking, results in discontinuing therapy or finding a different therapist.

Even with DBT, the preferred treatment for BPD, there has to be a willingness for change, which many pwBPDs do not have. As uncomfortable as their inner experience seems to be, and as disconcerting their behavior is to their partners, they are seemingly unwilling to learn new options.

It may be that you didn’t “waste a perfect opportunity” for your wife to “get back on track” but rather that she had absolutely no intention to do so.

[Manic Miner]

It’s true that therapists can mis-diagnose and not recognize signs of BPD. BPD manifests more prominently in intimate relationships, thus spouses and families can be much more cognizant of it than people on the outside.

In addition, since BPD is a shame-based disorder, often pwBPD who enter into therapy don’t fully disclose themselves to the therapist, and present their “best” selves, while blaming partners and parents for their *faults*.

That's true. In fact, I have witnessed that myself on couples counseling. Not once when I presented something she did during tantrums she found herself responsible. From "I don't know what you are talking about" to "why would I ever say that to you, it doesn't make any sense?". At first I thought she was doing it deliberately, but now I know better - it's the shame. Accepting this would be like opening the floodgates. I also figured that her solo sessions with therapists were just showing her best, like you said, exposing vulnerable bits that feel real and are actually an effect (e.g. exhaustion, anxiety, depression), not the root cause.

But, still, this psychiatrist failed here, big time. Because I went there as well, many times, also on my own. Even though I didn't know much about BPD at all, I explained some of the issues I faced. By that time her rage wasn't that violent (more verbal) so I mostly skipped some of the detail. My wife is a high-functioning one, for sure. But red flags were there.
And T didn't take them seriously at all. Rather than shift or change the established framework, she tried to squeeze everything I said to fit the existing one she already made. She had a scheme how to ease her depression and make her learn the new ways of thinking to avoid going back there. She already made up her mind about what my wife needs and what were the core issues. A big mistake.

Even with DBT, the preferred treatment for BPD, there has to be a willingness for change, which many pwBPDs do not have. As uncomfortable as their inner experience seems to be, and as disconcerting their behavior is to their partners, they are seemingly unwilling to learn new options.

It may be that you didn’t “waste a perfect opportunity” for your wife to “get back on track” but rather that she had absolutely no intention to do so.

Well, yeah, you could be right there as well. But check this out.
Say you and your therapist want to address your poor self-esteem or self-image. It's a good cause, right? But if you don't have any personal disorders, the lessons/tools thought there would be quite different. They were meant for non-pd guys. Otherwise, it's like reassuring a teenager that she can fly a jet plane, based on thinking that she had a prior flying experience and responsibility. Failing to see it's a long way ahead to even sit in the Cessna, let alone fly a jet.

Simply put, a pwBPD will twist the advice and see it differently, based on her/his perception. The therapists must be aware of this prior, otherwise the damage will be even greater, as pwBPD will get the reassurance, use the tools that weren't even meant for them and use them wrongly.

So, do I know my wife would accept going to DBT if suggested then? Who knows, maybe not. But if therapist suspected the issue there, based on my support and gently tried to make it work, then yes, I could see my wife trying it at least. She was way more honest to herself and me then and desperate to fix her issues. At least she was aware that she had issues, now it's like - I'm fixed, I'm good. I just need a bit of fine tuning and polish. I invested so much of my time and energy into this with a professional - and that's really true.

After all, she has no depression, little to no anxiety now, takes no pills, has much higher self-esteem than before (or so she shows), she enjoys herself - life is good. But at the expense of our relationship, intimacy, my support and all those masks she puts to maintain some of the above. I'm not trying to imply that she didn't do the hardwork herself to overcome some of those issues, but the biggest, fundamental one still remains.