Not sure what to do anymore - assistance needed

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Well, it seems that therapy was a “success” for your wife in that she feels better about herself, but a “failure” for your relationship.  

Especially with high functioning pwBPD, I believe it’s easy for therapists to overlook signs of a personality disorder. They too, may be under the influence of the charming personality a pwBPD can present, much like we were, at the beginning of our relationships.

Acknowledging this, where do you go from here?

[Cat Familiar]

Well, it seems that therapy was a “success” for your wife in that she feels better about herself, but a “failure” for your relationship.  

Especially with high functioning pwBPD, I believe it’s easy for therapists to overlook signs of a personality disorder. They too, may be under the influence of the charming personality a pwBPD can present, much like we were, at the beginning of our relationships.

Acknowledging this, where do you go from here?

[scraps66]

- Been 20+ years together, have one child.
- My spouse is NOT diagnosed with bpd. Been to several therapists for anxiety and depression. None confirmed it when I asked.
- My gut feeling tells me otherwise. I'm not qualified to give any diagnoses, but something I feel is not right. IMO, she has several bpd traits.

It is very possible that none of these therapists are aware of, or know enough about, BPD to comment or make a rough diagnosis.  Or, they won't say it for fear the BP could come back to them.  As said, everything sounds BP and to a degree mimics my own experience.   The losing it part especially which can lead to self-doubt and issues of anxiety if not kept in check.   

[maxsterling]

In my final couple's therapy session, I made the mistake of saying, "You're behavior is the root cause of the problem." The therapist said, "No, you're wrong. You're reactions to her are the cause of the problem." It really pissed me off at the time, because I am fairly logical also. It's a simple if then statement in my opinion. If X occurs, then Y occurs. Y occurring did not cause X to happen. Basic logic, right? However, in our situation X occurring will only initiate an "if else" of YY to engage.

Sorry for replying to an old post - but I mostly disagree with this.  I agree that a statement that "your behavior is the cause of the problem" is not constructive for solving a conflict, but that does not mean the statement is not true.  On small situations, sure.  My wife would say that me forgetting to bring the kids' water bottles is the cause of the problem.  To me, forgetting something is part of life.  From my perspective, there was no problem until my wife reacted harshly to me making an honest mistake.  Likewise, if she loads the dishwasher incorrectly, it is not a problem unless I make a big deal about it. 

But on more serious (abusive) issues, I completely disagree, and sounds like victim blaming.  I could come home from work and my W may immediately yell and scream at me and call me names.  I then choose to leave the room/house to not be in the path of her abuse.  IT IS A SURVIVAL MECHANISM.  But she will claim the cause of the "problem" is me walking away, or my reaction to her behavior.  That is simply not true, because her screaming and calling me names is already a problem no matter how I react. 

I have been told that MC go under the assumption that the conflict is not "abusive", and that if there is abuse involved the situation goes beyond the MC toolbox. 

[maxsterling]

Especially with high functioning pwBPD, I believe it’s easy for therapists to overlook signs of a personality disorder. They too, may be under the influence of the charming personality a pwBPD can present, much like we were, at the beginning of our relationships.

Other issues may be at play here, too.  Remember, there is no "cure" for BPD and no medicine that helps.  On top of that, there is a very poor and hopeless image for this disorder.  Diagnosing someone BPD probably serves little good.  It also may be easier to get services for a patient if they are given other diagnoses, especially from an insurance stand point.   An insurance company may me more willing to cover medicines and therapies for someone who is bipolar, has "major depressive disorder", or "complex PTSD".  My wife's T knows she was diagnosed BPD many years ago.  But her T tends to focus not on the diagnosis but on therapies for the individual symptoms.  A therapist may miss BPD at first, but I am willing to bet most would have some inclination after half a dozen sessions. 

[Manic Miner]

Acknowledging this, where do you go from here?

Many things have changed since I started this thread. Lots of things went for the better - her rage, loads of verbal crap that she used to say during episodes, got toned down and last less time. She's controlling anger better than ever and can be reasoned with faster. I guess it's also because I learned not to engage and add fuel to the fire, with more understanding. Win-win, eh?

Well, not quite. If before she was about to leave and start a new life with our daughter, now she's all about staying, getting our lives and times back together, realizing how much we loved each other (23 years together), stuff we built from scratch, our family and all we've been through. And I have known her for so long that I know she's speaking the truth here, or she wants to believe.

So where is the problem?

Well, back at the masks she learned to put on at T sessions. When she's not afraid of losing it all, she's all about herself and our daughter, showing little affection to me, taking for granted and getting comfortable that I'm here for support, chat, parenting etc. She does try to "be there" for me, in her own, rather superficial way. And that's usually the opposite of what I actually need. Besides, I'm introvert, she's extrovert, that further makes this little more complicated.

Intimacy has been hit with a rock. I talked to her so many times and it didn't get better. I think she doesn't know the answer herself, as most of her real emotions and fears are hidden under masks, as this is all shame/remorse related. She just hits replies like "oh you already have that honey, remember when... you're not right, we had this and that etc." She's highly intelligent and can take bits of everything I said and come up with something logical to persuade or reassure me, even though I know that's not how it really happened or is one-sided.

If I want anything to happen, I need to approach her, every_single_time. At one point I was questioning myself, my personality. She's like afraid to be intimate or to show her "loose" side and is rather superficial and transaction-based.

And then that dreaded "radar mode" where she's addressing my behaviour. Was I rude or nice, if/when I kissed her or showed her affection and if I didn't why not. She's always in search for something, but rarely embeds the same logic to herself. I got tired of these. As an introvert, I tend to just shutdown. That triggers her and goes on with "how come you hugged me in bed, but you don't approach me tenderly in RL now?".

So back to your question again - where do I go now? I still have feelings for her. I love her, I'm attracted to her. If she passed by me in the streets, you bet I'd be looking at her (funny thing is, it already happened. I was staring at someone, from her toes to her head, realizing it was her, with delayed "oh, it's you sweetie!"). She's a lively and joyful person deep down, loyal to a fault and a loving mother. I'm incredibly sad she doesn't see herself that way, without all those needs for validation and those dreadful masks she puts on to look tougher in our relationship.

If we could go back to the way she used to care about us as a couple, I'd be ready to live on with a high-functioning pwbpd. The good would far outperform the bad, and now I know better.

But the way it is now, my hunt for her affection, mixed with this never-ending scanning of my behaviour, ego-centered, transaction-based intimacy of "I'm expecting something without actually looking at your needs", "I did this, you should do that"... I can hardly see myself in it for life. In fact, if this is the new norm, then I cannot wait to restart everything from scratch. And it pains me to think that way.

At least we are having more meaningful conversations about us, whether to keep on going or live separately. Little more time is needed for sure, but certainly not years. If you have any more tips to help sort affection issues in bpd's, please share.

[Couper]

Well, not quite. If before she was about to leave and start a new life with our daughter, now she's all about staying, getting our lives and times back together, realizing how much we loved each other (23 years together), stuff we built from scratch, our family and all we've been through. And I have known her for so long that I know she's speaking the truth here, or she wants to believe.

Not to second-guess you here, but does this positive upswing ever occur prior to things getting pushed all the way out to the edge of the cliff?  I'm speaking from the experience of the cycles I have endured for the last 15 years.  Everything is negative, negative, negative until the line is about to snap... then she reels it back in and starts over.

I'm watching this again right now.  Immediately after what was (now) a rare direct exchange with my uBPDw the other night, now rather than melting into the couch every evening watching t.v. while she simultaneously wastes endless hours on social media, I come in late and hear her downstairs reading stories to the kids like she's supermom... and I can tell that she's making sure I hear it.  Sorry for being cynical, but it's just a response to a set of circumstances like you outlined above -- it will fade away.

[Manic Miner]

Not to second-guess you here, but does this positive upswing ever occur prior to things getting pushed all the way out to the edge of the cliff?  I'm speaking from the experience of the cycles I have endured for the last 15 years.  Everything is negative, negative, negative until the line is about to snap... then she reels it back in and starts over.

I feel you, I know what you mean. I'm sorry what are you going through. Yes, that did happen and does happen, even though I believe it was genuine now, at least for her. I truly believe she'd love to be like the way she claims. But in 7 out of 10 that's not what will actually happen in real life, long term.

We all share different stories. Some are mild and some are extreme and downright frightening. But in my case, sadness is the word now. I'm incredibly sad my wife cannot see herself and her behavior nowadays. She's as brittle as a flake, tender, then next minute she asks me those dreadful "are you abandoning me?" questions, hears something discouraging and puts a badass bitch mask to hide her sadness and shame, irritating the hell of me for a minute, but deep down I already see this rather transparent disguise. There isn't any rage or anger anymore, it's just sad.

She is capable of so much more. When she's out of that pitiful, sludge of emotions, she can be the best girl ever. Smart, witty, joyful and highly attractive. And I'm the guy with empathy and can just feel her sadness myself.

But I just cannot tell her - honey, you are guarding and safekeeping the junkyard with your life 24/7, while the gold is hidden deep down and left unattended.

[Manic Miner]

One more thing. I started thinking that we are living in my own apartment. I inherited it from my mother before marriage.

Do you think a partner should be mindful of that? I'm not thinking about it in a sleazy, manipulative "you should be grateful!" way, but just having an awareness.

Because I didn't make any boundaries regarding our ... my flat. I was treating it like - it's ours. Should be ours.

But lately, maybe I'm being more self aware or selfish. But I asked myself - why would I tolerate this in my own apt? Just why? If someone is unable to appreciate this life, what we do have (zero mortgage, no loans/credit) maybe there's no hope for anything better. Samone is just taking everything for granted.

Further, I was trying to picture myself doing crap for years and living in HER aparment, if she had one, and I couldn't see her tolerating my BS to be honest.

What is your take on this? Does this make any sense? I don't even know how is it like in normal relationships on this matter.

[Manic Miner]

Since I didn't have Instagram, only fb, I created an account for my job. Out of curiosity I went on the profile of my wife.

And oh well... She's not the girl that sends hundreds of images, but more like important and nice events of her life, together with a lot of text (she's a writer).

Every single image is of her... or with our daughter. Last time she put me there was 56w ago. So why this sucks so much? There were many events where we went together. Thought we had a great time, did selfies and groupies, only to see it was all about her, without even mentioning me in the text, anywhere. At the same time, on my fb profile, I put all of our images from those events (that I wanted to share anyway). And of course she's there, tagged as well.

This only proves something I suspected many moons ago - it's all about her in our marriage now. Or more precisely - her job, her sports and our daughter. I'm not on that list at all. No wonder my gut had a bad feeling about this for months. No wonder our intimacy and connection is all-time low.

Therapist once told me "yeah, well, she took off, discovering herself and flying high, while you remained on the ground" to which I replied "oh nice, so while she's flying high, there's someone down there to do the 'boring' stuff - me". Tending our apartment, our pets, garden, paying taxes and lots of house responsibilities. And of course - our daughter, that I share at least 50% of responsibilities daily.

Is she making herself look better, boosting her ego or self esteem? Will that ever end? I find it difficult to be honest and open with her anymore. At times when I thought both of us had a great time and genuinely felt we connected again, I now know she had herself on mind, first and foremost.

A bitter taste it is. I don't remember how many times I tried to talk about this, but every single time I was dismissed and told I was exaggerating things.

[Manic Miner]

Alright, another chapter is in the writing.

She's officially out, took her things out of our/my apartment and went to her parents, to where our daughter is already (though she thought for summer vacation). My father in law is a good man and he isn't even suspecting. We were even texting today. I feel very bad for him and gutted to know how she will portray me to him.

Prior to this were minor fights and misunderstandings, like:

a) Going for a walk in 11:30pm, telling me it's only to stretch her legs, then arriving home at 1:20am, to which I responded quite angrily with "you should have texted me or called me, I was worried. People normally go for a walk for 30min to an hour, not 2h and in the middle of the night!"
She told me I was controlling, I was not her dad, should have called her instead if I was worried. Yeah. I should have, could have responded better, she has BPD. I was invalidating her. But I couldn't. I had enough of that childish behavior. She's 39 not 12.

b) I woke up and noticed she removed our picture from her desk yet again and placed herself instead. This was something she was doing for months. She knew I loved that picture of us and was deliberately hiding it, removing it, telling me the cleaning lady did it, etc.
I went bonkers, told her how pitiful it was to do that again, then went to our "tree" of photographs, pulled one of us and tore it apart. Naturally, I was at fault for losing my temper, doing such hurtful things. Zero responsibility on her part. I said I was sorry, as I did lose it and replaced that photo with another one, telling her it's not in my being to do such things, even when I'm hurt.

c) Yesterday, after a short trip she was coming home. All felt good. We were texting, she was sending images, I was making jokes. She told me that she loved me and bought me some wine as a gift.

It couldn't go bad, right? RIGHT?

Of course it could. Right after she parked, she called me on the phone and told me "come down to help me". I was in the middle of my job, in my pants and told her "I will come to help you, as I always do, but why are you so authoritative, can you by a chance drop "please" in it? Like I do it for you when I need help with something."

It's like the hell gates opened in front of me. Immediately after I regretted it, but part of me was just overflowed with this caretaker role.

She hung up the phone, turned it off, then texted me to don't call her again. Telling me she was feeling bad and throwing up. I noticed the madness I was in and tried to cool it off by saying I was sorry, shouldn't welcome her coming home with some demands etc. - I know it was BS, but I tried it.
Nothing helped. It soothed her a bit then she went on about other things and how I wasn't really sorry. Meanwhile, I was on my el. scooter, trying to find her in our neighborhood. Did she take that as a sign of good will on my side? Of course not. It's for granted. It's perfectly normal for people to be hiding and being chased by family members that have nothing else in their lives to do.

It ended up with a big fight, lasted almost till 2am. I couldn't get out, trying to calm her. Nope. She was in 100% crazy mode, yelling, her eyes were about to pop out. I tried to reason with her. She was saying how utterly stupid she was for trying to patch our relationship, should have ended it long ago!

She was in a complete turbulence. She was getting dressed and undressed at least 4 times, saying that she would leave in the middle of the night. Then stay. Then go. Then stay. Go tomorrow.
I was about to get to bed and was being accused of going to sleep like a baby while she was bursting in tears. When I tried to comfort her, she refused.
I told her this cannot go much longer and I cannot tolerate this drama anymore. But I begged her to stop this madness and go to sleep, tomorrow is a new day.

Well new day (today) made nothing for the better. Same (patho)logic remained. I thought maybe she'd cool off. Nope. Generally I noticed that even though there was no junkyard coming out of her mouth, the way it used to be, the tradeoff was that she couldn't be reasoned with. It's like NOTHING could pull her from that vicious emotional circle when she's in. Music, some external stories, hugging, jokes, looks, cats, images, nothing. Only her job.

Maybe I myself was the trigger (as I read on one article here).

I tried to talk and reason with her today at least 5 times, while she was packing her luggage. I used all sort of "tricks", from hugging to being gentle and calm. Nothing. I asked her if she really thought that yesterdays fight was big enough reason to end this all? She was like 'no but it was enough'. I said - do you feel any responsibility on your part? We could have shrugged it all of then drank some wine you know.
She went mad - then why we didn't? but kept cool continuing - yeah, I have a tiny bit of responsibility, but I'm not alone in this relationship. You cannot command me and mold me the way you want. You did this and that etc etc.

me: "maybe therapist could help you know?"
w: "yeah, I'm glad you will go and seek therapy"
me: "after the things from yesterday, I think you could benefit one as well"
w: "get out, I'm packing stuff and leaving"
 
How do I feel now? Very sad, but kind of relieved. It breaks my heart to say this, after 23 years of being together and everything we been through. I honestly didn't think we would end on this small, pitiful issue, without any closure. This was barely civilized.

I feel guilty and bad about how she bought me/us some wine as a present, hoping some happier times would follow. That is almost too painful for me. If you want to hit me where I'm the weakest, then it's when I turn bad on people that wanted to do something positive and good - or so it seems. I don't think it was manipulation per se, she did buy this gift for the good occasion. I still cannot believe how one can turn from a loving, caring individual to a complete desperate monster in a matter of minutes.

But you know what? Damn the relationship if one could go totally mad, without any remorse and leave for good after me saying one sentence that didn't sound right or wasn't right. If it didn't end today, it would have ended tomorrow or day after.

[15years]

I think I recognize the state you're in right now, thougths and feelings flying around inside your head. The one thing I can say for sure is that you will calm down eventually and see things clearer than now.

This is the reason I nowadays try not to react emotionally myself - to avoid being in that emotional space I believe you're in now. For me, that feeling of chaos only lasts a day or two, so hang in there.

Why do you think she won't be back in a day or two and do you want her to come back or not? Does it feel like things are moving too quickly now?

[ForeverDad]

I tried to talk and reason with her today at least 5 times, while she was packing her luggage. I used all sort of "tricks", from hugging to being gentle and calm. Nothing.

What works for a while often doesn't work as well over time.  Almost like the pwBPD gets sensitized to one approach.  That's why having a variety of alternate tools and skills can help.

Maybe I myself was the trigger (as I read on one article here).

Actually, there is more than a hint of truth in it.  I too wondered why my ex would get so very angry at me.  In the earlier years she would get angry at others who got close to her.  Then it was me, as though she was sensitized to me.  It was a sign that (1) I was close to her and (2)she felt she could privately rage at me and (3) I had changed in her perceptions, from being a spouse to becoming a father.

How do you break the cycle?  Rather than answer that in a few words, let's ponder the matter.

You've been married for some 30 years.  So this 'cycle' is not something that's occurred just a few times.  And you've tried and tried to the point of exhaustion to modify your life, to appease, to mollify, yet still the conflict returns.  It's not for lack of trying.

You've been here for a over a year now, no doubt you've browsed our Tools and Skills board to educate yourself on practical Boundaries and ways to Communicate wisely.  Yet still things often fall apart.

Years ago someone phrased our collective situation in an intriguing way and I often repeat it.  The poor behaviors of people with BPD (pwBPD) are more evident the closer the relationship.  What is closer than a spouse or an immediate family member?  So while some people may notice from a distance that there's something 'off' about that person, you as the person in a close relationship are exposed directly.  And as has been noted, there's so much emotional baggage of the past history of the relationship that the pwBPD just can't and won't get past it and isn't truly listening, at least not consistently.

Let's discuss the membership here.  This board includes several situations in which we find ourselves, some comparatively mild, some more severe.  Some have been able to work with their spouses and have managed to use our newfound skills and tools to find some response and continue the relationship, well, at least for now.  The more extreme cases?  Sadly, many here tried to get a positive response but failed and so they decided there was (for multiple reasons) no other choice but to end the relationship.

[Manic Miner]

What works for a while often doesn't work as well over time.  Almost like the pwBPD gets sensitized to one approach.  That's why having a variety of alternate tools and skills can help.

Thanks for the tools. It's one way to read and learn and completely another to execute that when it's needed. And here I even forgot other tools existed.

It was a sign that (1) I was close to her and (2)she felt she could privately rage at me and (3) I had changed in her perceptions, from being a spouse to becoming a father.

You have a good point. I think my wife too sees me more of a father than her husband/partner. When she's not talking about sports and her job, she's ALL about our daughter. Yes she has special needs and my W's bond with her is immense.
But sometimes she's cuddling and talking with her like she should with her partner. She's a good mother, but it's like she's almost trying to get the love from our daughter she should get from me. I think she substituted our love, as her way of thinking is probably "well, at least my daughter will never abandon me, like he did".
She's actually believing I manipulated and mistreated her, I read that on her notes. I couldn't believe it, thought she was mentioning someone else, but it was me.

I remember when my W was young, in her early 20s, she was telling me how her brother and parents used to tell her to never bond with anyone closely as "it will ultimately fail and you will feel rejected and bad". Things changed now, her father was an alcoholic, but has been treated and sober for decades. He is now the wisest and most sincere of them all.
Still, she was actually raised with that sort of thinking when she was young and sadly, it left the visible mark.

[Manic Miner]

I think I recognize the state you're in right now, thougths and feelings flying around inside your head. The one thing I can say for sure is that you will calm down eventually and see things clearer than now.
This is the reason I nowadays try not to react emotionally myself - to avoid being in that emotional space I believe you're in now. For me, that feeling of chaos only lasts a day or two, so hang in there.

That's how it usually lasts for me too. But it goes in waves... I feel good, relieved, then all painful thoughts and memories come back, haunting me. Maybe I should have been better, more caring, should have, could have, shouldn't done this etc... I'm generally a nostalgic person and it's a killer combo for these kind of issues.

Why do you think she won't be back in a day or two and do you want her to come back or not? Does it feel like things are moving too quickly now?

Actually she came today to leave our daughter with me and felt refreshed and much more calm than yesterday. Still, the way she packed things and all, I don't see she'll be back soon or anything close to that.

Yes, it's moving quickly.
I take responsibility here as well. Not just the way I acted and boosted her BPD issues. She was noticing my ambivalence for months, even though I tried to hide it. She's super sensitive and can always see through me.

Part of me truly want to fix, heal, go to counseling, change the perspective, communicate better and live the life. To have the quality of love we had many years ago. To have a whole family again. Learning new ways, I still have feelings for her.

But part of me says "no, stop, you have done too much already. Your gut is screaming. Some of your friends would have given up long, long ago without ever turning back. Maybe you should just split, remain friends and share parenting roles".

I'm sure part of the reason she left was because she sensed this. And I cannot lie, I am ambivalent and cannot point to any direction fully now. Is that normal in these circumstances?
Also I'm sensing my codependency issues as well. Much better than year ago, but have so much to change and learn.

[15years]

I'm sure part of the reason she left was because she sensed this. And I cannot lie, I am ambivalent and cannot point to any direction fully now. Is that normal in these circumstances?

This is also the case for me, I would consider it normal. I desperately long to end the relationship but I'm unsure if it's just a phase in the detachment process in which I'm becoming someone apart from her, or if this is how I'll feel indefinitely. Also our long complex history, all our inside jokes and the love we share for our children. Don't think this is only related to bpd, more about my view on love and commitment. Ironically as she has accused me of never committing to anything.

It just takes one short good conversation with her and I often start to imagine maniging these circumstances for life. Be the strong partner who holds everything together. One minute later she might follow up with something utterly ridiculous and my mood sinks.

This all makes it impossible to commit to any direction. Just biding my time and observing myself becoming stronger.

[Manic Miner]

This is also the case for me, I would consider it normal. I desperately long to end the relationship but I'm unsure if it's just a phase in the detachment process in which I'm becoming someone apart from her, or if this is how I'll feel indefinitely. Also our long complex history, all our inside jokes and the love we share for our children. Don't think this is only related to bpd, more about my view on love and commitment. Ironically as she has accused me of never committing to anything.

It just takes one short good conversation with her and I often start to imagine managing these circumstances for life. Be the strong partner who holds everything together. One minute later she might follow up with something utterly ridiculous and my mood sinks.

This all makes it impossible to commit to any direction. Just biding my time and observing myself becoming stronger.

Don't take this the wrong way, but somehow, the more I think about us - partners with BPD spouses, the more I see how damaged we are.

Distorted views, hot-cold thinking, clinging on the best when they say or do, feeling that we are going crazy when they go mad, ambivalence, ruminating about them... We are in their waters, trying to swim in their weather conditions, searching for an isle or something stable to stay. Their ways and their rules with us seeing it's all delusional, but having no option other than to sink or swim.


I had a long talk with my W today over the phone. We talked for more than an hour, seemed to be fine, then I said something bad (?) and she was trying again to push me offline. This time I managed to tone it good and she was again fully in control so we continued. It was literally walking on eggshells.

She asked me to think if I want to change, to stop being rude, arrogant, or have my mood swings, to appreciate who she is, to respect her as a person and be glad that she is happy and good. Because she's happy for me and expect the same for her. To never say how she's in the clouds, flying high, irrational, how she's a psychiatric case (I don't remember saying that actually but yeah) and that she was getting me frustrated. If I cannot agree on all of that we are heading divorce.

In 80 minute talk, she mentioned her teeny tiny responsibility one time then went on saying other things.

The way I see it, she's suggesting me to accept a time bomb. I have seen it long enough to know that it's not if but when will it go off.

I have a lot of to do on myself - treat codependency, reinforcing the tools and boundaries, trying to further tone down my own temper, be better with words, be more compassionate, think about myself and my well-being more.

But will that be enough? Will ever something be enough? Is there a "hook" for BPDs that we, nonPD's can use it for our advantage in situations like these?

I think no matter how I try, the bomb will tick. Like it did during our conversation, where for 77 minutes we were on the page, then one singe line was somehow threatening for her and was enough to start losing it and getting frustrated. It's literally 77min vs 3min and 3min of craziness wins every time.

Is there any hope here? Does separation and living apart makes something go better or not? My gut tells me various stuff, but I'd really love to hear veterans if possible.
@Cat Familiar are you there? You are incredibly wise and seen a lot. I especially like that you are actually still living with a BPD spouse and somehow managed it all. Thanks.

[Cat Familiar]

Thanks for the kind words, MM. Yep, I’ve seen a lot since all my important relationships have been with individuals with personality disorders (except for my dad, but he became incredibly damaged after so many years of living with my mother). Wise? I don’t know about that part. Talk is easy. Changing behavior is hard.

You’ve brought up some very insightful and important points:

the more I think about us - partners with BPD spouses, the more I see how damaged we are.

Distorted views, hot-cold thinking, clinging on the best when they say or do, feeling that we are going crazy when they go mad, ambivalence, ruminating about them... We are in their waters, trying to swim in their weather conditions, searching for an isle or something stable to stay. Their ways and their rules with us seeing it's all delusional, but having no option other than to sink or swim.


So many of us here had a parent with a personality disorder. From a very early age, we learned to tolerate and excuse unkind and thoughtless behaviors, because this was all we knew. And then, feeling remorse, often our parent would behave in ways that were so kind and loving, we felt like everything was perfect…and it was…only for a moment.

This was a set-up for us partnering with a BPD spouse. It felt familiar, since it was—we had grown up *swimming in these waters*, to use your metaphor.

The difference is that we are now on an equal footing with our partner, compared to being subordinate to our parent. If we haven’t developed a strong sense of self, which might not have happened if a BPD parent has tried to make us into a *mini-me*, we can be too accommodating and tolerant of behaviors that would send emotionally healthy people running for the door. Continuing with this pattern for many years results in not giving our partners the necessary feedback on how their behaviors are affecting us.

And over time, the built up resentment that this will create in us, can cause us to snap, and say and do things that are outside our normal character.

You are right, that many of us here, probably a very high percentage, are *damaged*, some from growing up in a dysfunctional family, and some from living in a dysfunctional relationship.

Acknowledging this is a good first step and wanting to do something about it is a sign of emotional health. (This is a far different experience than with people with BPD who know they are damaged, yet are afraid of looking within and trying to do something about it.)

It sounds like you are not certain if you’d like this relationship to continue. Whether or not it does, you will still be interacting with her for years to come, since you have a daughter. And if you decide to go your separate ways, you could easily find yourself in another relationship some time later.

Now would be an excellent time to work on your own issues. We all have them and they seem endless…fix one…and another one pops up…like a cafeteria tray.

From what I’ve read in your thread, it sounds like you and your wife are so ultra-sensitized to each other at this point, that it doesn’t take much to set off an argument. Unlike with an emotionally healthy partner, engaging in arguments with a pwBPD will result in no positive outcome, no “I see what you mean,” no “That must have hurt when I said that,” no “I didn’t realize…,” no “I’m terribly sorry for my part,” no “You must have thought I was utterly thoughtless…” etc.

Arguments for a BPD partner only further cement their position that they are being abused or betrayed.

It would be nice to be able to have a meeting of the minds and to come up with renewed vows to work on the relationship, but you are married to an emotionally disabled woman, and to continue with the relationship, this is something you’ll have to accept.

I think it can be even harder to see the disability when one’s partner is rather functional in the world. I observed that with my mother. My friends thought she was great! However they only saw a tiny slice of the totality of her personality.

Whether or not your relationship survives, perhaps you can call this time a *therapeutic separation* and throw your energy into working on your part. This will benefit you in countless ways, and will serve you well in coparenting. Should your marriage end, you will be even a better partner for a future romantic relationship.

[Manic Miner]

Wise? I don’t know about that part. Talk is easy. Changing behavior is hard.

Don't be shy.   That's understandable, for all of us. All we can do here is talk. But what you say is far more relatable and gives some introspection and food for thought.

It sounds like you are not certain if you’d like this relationship to continue. Whether or not it does, you will still be interacting with her for years to come, since you have a daughter. And if you decide to go your separate ways, you could easily find yourself in another relationship some time later.

Now would be an excellent time to work on your own issues. We all have them and they seem endless…fix one…and another one pops up…like a cafeteria tray.

From what I’ve read in your thread, it sounds like you and your wife are so ultra-sensitized to each other at this point, that it doesn’t take much to set off an argument.

Unfortunately, yes, correct.
It's been 7 days since she moved out. First few days were the hardest. I go to the kitchen and see her favourite cups, things and food she used, her stuff allover the house and now she's gone. I had my share with permanent or forced losses of my family members, so I won't hide that this triggered similar feelings and felt awful.

But it's better now, for her too. I'm working on my own boundaries - my core values and those that are changeable. We do see each other outdoors. She even came here when I was with our daughter and we had some fun talking. Yesterday we went on the beach together and met some of our friends there. It felt good, a bit estranged, but good vibes.

In fact, I have noticed that she'd like to move back, but I'm more than reluctant to accept it. Despite having no drama and both of us feeling good, I sensed several times that little to nothing changed in her thinking (well, as expected). She just cooled off. All blame is on me. Intimacy still zero - the separation didn't trigger the long for romantic closeness on her side.

She still probes our relationship with questions like "so how do you feel now? You seem rather happy alone, so it must be that our relationship is over" or "you don't miss me, otherwise, you'd do something to take me back". I replied, "honey, you see that we are all better and more calm, we need to set a healthy ground first", to which she very much agreed. Though I expect these kind of questions to emerge again.

Meanwhile, as it is, she wants to continue living as of now - her job, sports and our daughter being 95% of her time, with me doing the backstage caretaking, house work and being happy that she is happy.

Do I want that? No. I find it so much easier to tend the apt. on my own. I hear no excuses, I just do it, several small things per day and it's already visible. I feel good on my own. I'm lonely, miss the past times. But at least there's no drama, silent treatments, unspoken turbulence of emotions or my own unfulfilled expectations. Life seems so much easier. I work on my job better and more efficient.

Though my ambivalence kicks in as well - do I want to be with her? Yes. For our daughter, for what we built over the years, I still have feelings for her. Still think it's manageable with changes (biggest on my part). Even though we are apart, we still share common interests.
I'm realizing, to continue I'd have to be a caretaker for life. But things need to be changed for good, with the relationship as a whole. My wildcard (or the only card) is the counseling. We'd go together this week and I will go on my own too, soon. To have a better view of myself and our relationship. I'm not expecting miracles, but maybe something good could be made there. SET technique does wonders. I'm very impressed how it turned out, I can be reasoned with my wife quite easily.

engaging in arguments with a pwBPD will result in no positive outcome, no “I see what you mean,” no “That must have hurt when I said that,” no “I didn’t realize…,” no “I’m terribly sorry for my part,” no “You must have thought I was utterly thoughtless…” etc.

Something I haven't heard for a very, very long time. Like, years. And that would be a game changer for us. It would literally bring life in our relationship and give me hope that not all is futile.

Arguments for a BPD partner only further cement their position that they are being abused or betrayed.

It would be nice to be able to have a meeting of the minds and to come up with renewed vows to work on the relationship, but you are married to an emotionally disabled woman, and to continue with the relationship, this is something you’ll have to accept.

I think it can be even harder to see the disability when one’s partner is rather functional in the world. I observed that with my mother. My friends thought she was great! However they only saw a tiny slice of the totality of her personality.

Whether or not your relationship survives, perhaps you can call this time a *therapeutic separation* and throw your energy into working on your part. This will benefit you in countless ways, and will serve you well in coparenting. Should your marriage end, you will be even a better partner for a future romantic relationship.

Thank you, words of wisdom for sure.

[EZEarache]

I have a lot of to do on myself - ...trying to further tone down my own temper...

Manic Miner, I'm sure you're experiencing a lot of challenging emotions right now. Twenty-Three years is a very long time. I can say that after my relationship ended, I was really concerned about how easily I was flying into a rage. It was problematic. I even went to my therapist with my concerns asking for resources. He didn't really give me any, which I was sort of annoyed about, at the time.

One of the things I've read repeatedly is that partners with BPD and other high-conflict personalities will tend to adopt some of the personality traits including a bad temper.

After being separated for more than a year, maintaining minimal contact with my co-parent with BPD, I'm noticing that my temper has really improved. Almost on its own. Certainly, when I recognize I'm becoming angry I take some steps to rein myself back in. However, the Amygdala Hijack I used to experience on a regular basis happens far less frequently. I feel more and more like my old self. So the good news is that in my case the adopted trait seems to pass over time.

Give yourself time. You're going through a lot. Definitely accept your role in the potential causes that lead to this current breakup. However, don't let yourself fall into the narrative that she is providing where you need to be the one making all the changes.

The truth is you're a very good person who has bent over backwards to preserve this relationship for the good of your daughter. From the sounds of things, far better than I could or did.

Please be strong, and remember there are a lot of us out there that can empathize with your situation.

[Manic Miner]

@EZEarache  thanks a lot on kind, supportive words and understanding. It means a lot, especially now.

One of the things I've read repeatedly is that partners with BPD and other high-conflict personalities will tend to adopt some of the personality traits including a bad temper.
However, the Amygdala Hijack I used to experience on a regular basis happens far less frequently. I feel more and more like my old self. So the good news is that in my case the adopted trait seems to pass over time.

You mean, we non-bpd tend to adopt high-conflict behaviour from them or they take it from us when we are angry? I think both ways are true.

What I started being aware of is mirroring. How much she mirrored me or her friends she admired. At first it was great, like - wow, we all share and like same stuff! Hooray. But then novelty wore off or something just didn't seem right. As an INFP-T, I have a highly sensitive intuition. For months I was like - why she suddenly stopped loving something she used to? Or, how come the music we both loved suddenly means nothing to her? Yes, people change and their taste changes as well, but this was so abrupt and so drastic.

Then I realized, when she started "getting afraid" of me and lost the emotional contact, all of that pulled various other stuff she mirrored from me. She started mirroring her friends, trying to be like them to the point of me telling her - Honey, you don't need to be a pushover, to instantly jump and do what they do, the way they do! Like, take your time, use the bits you like, refuse the other. Then I was being told I was negative and nonsupportive.

One day I was being angry, telling to myself - why this woman doesn't seem to have any strong opinion about something? She just seems to go with the flow with the people she likes? And that's before I read about mirroring and loss of identity.

Why mirroring is bad in a relationship, I learned the hard way. Assuming you are good, non-exploitable person, even if you are unaware of mirroring, you can use it to your own advantage in a healthy way. For example, you want to organize to go somewhere, do something. Go to a happy place on summer holidays you thought you both loved. There's 90% chance your high-functioning BPD parther will agree, be your company and go with you. All good, right? For a while.
While it can be good in some ways, it's all about you and your organization. As soon as you stop doing that or you are unable to go for whatever reason, your bpd partner will also stop. What you thought was her passion, love, happiness and having fun was mostly because of you. This means if you lose your will, be reluctant, sad or hard to go, there won't be anyone to push you there again. You will have to push yourself even on the bad days.
She can push you to some place she likes (next interesting thing she finds out) or found by her friends, but that won't be the same you thought you both had passion for. That was frustrating me so much and it seemed discouraging, as my introverted personality doesn't like change for the sake of change, especially not stuff or places that are beautiful and have a lot of to discover or use.

[EZEarache]

@EZEarache  thanks a lot on kind, supportive words and understanding. It means a lot, especially now.

You mean, we non-bpd tend to adopt high-conflict behaviour from them...

Yes, what I meant is that we adopt the high conflict personality trait. At least I did, and it seems to be fairly common.

However, yes, I experienced mirroring, on her side also. It was definitely noticeable to me with music as you mentioned. I am a musician and I have a major pet peeve regarding poorly written songs, that tend to flood the radio. When we first started dating, "Oh, I'm a classic rock girl." Not my favorite type of music but it's preferable to the crappy dance, "music" that floods the airwaves these days. Once she had our baby, I would complain about the crappy pop music she would listen to on the radio. This inevitably turned into an argument where I became the bad person for not having an open mind, or being critical of everything.

Personally, I think I have a very open mind to music. I listen to a lot of really avantgarde stuff, that leaves most people scratching their heads. However, I also have an educated opinion on what constitutes a corny chord progression and original drum beat. Towards the end of our relationship, I stopped voicing my opinion on why the music we were listening to was bad and just cringed anytime she was driving.

In hindsight this dynamic spilled over into most facets of our life together.

For good or for bad, she refused to make any new friends of her own, despite my prodding. So, I never got to observe the new friend's influence on her behavior.

[Manic Miner]

Yes, what I meant is that we adopt the high conflict personality trait. At least I did, and it seems to be fairly common.

It's a very common thing. (C) AdamW

Before I knew better, I used to endlessly explain, as I thought if I'd use some logic, we'd both see what went wrong.

Very rarely there were some mild physical attacks during her rage, like pushing me on the bed, spilling the tea from my cup, sticking her nails to my hand etc. One time, I found it very hard to resist. I couldn't and I slapped her and started cursing. Long story short, she moved to her parents for a couple of days with "he got mad and hit me" line and I was solely accused of uncontrollable rage and needed therapy.

Of course I apologized heavily, but I knew I wasn't the one that started and alone in this. This was about 3 years ago.
I went to my therapist, explained to her in detail what happened. I was embarrassed by my action, as I never, ever hit anyone before. She explained to me everything and started working on my triggers and controlling the situation before escalating. I asked her "does it matter who starts first?" she said "It does" and told me to call my W to come alone next time.
My wife went there and I was so nervous at home. I was thinking either she will go into tantrum mode or my therapist will say everything she doesn't want to hear.
Turned out the latter was the case. My W rang on the door, entered our apt. without saying a word, complained about heavy migraine headache, laid on sofa and asked to turn off the lights. Literally uttered no other words. That never happened before. I asked how it went and all I got was "oh, a bit of this and that, she explained as you know, I cannot talk anymore".

That's how she reacts when faced with the truth by "authority" (therapist) where she cannot behave badly. My T told me afterwards that she explained to her that she was responsible for starting the rage that spread, offering some tools to cool it off. That was like 180 degree turn from what she and her parents wanted to believe.

So back to your statement, yes, as I have learned - rage and bad behaviour spread like fire if you cannot control it yourself, lack tools or are in a hurtful mood.

However, yes, I experienced mirroring, on her side also. It was definitely noticeable to me with music as you mentioned. I am a musician and I have a major pet peeve regarding poorly written songs, that tend to flood the radio. When we first started dating, "Oh, I'm a classic rock girl." Not my favorite type of music but it's preferable to the crappy dance, "music" that floods the airwaves these days. Once she had our baby, I would complain about the crappy pop music she would listen to on the radio. This inevitably turned into an argument where I became the bad person for not having an open mind, or being critical of everything.

Personally, I think I have a very open mind to music. I listen to a lot of really avantgarde stuff, that leaves most people scratching their heads. However, I also have an educated opinion on what constitutes a corny chord progression and original drum beat.

For good or for bad, she refused to make any new friends of her own, despite my prodding. So, I never got to observe the new friend's influence on her behavior.

Oh, a fellow musician! I play keyboards myself, for fun. But yeah, music is very important to me. Like your ex, my wife started playing summer hits on the radio when alone. I have no probs with dance pop music. Some of it is a guilty pleasure for me as well, but it was so obvious that without me playing and selecting the music, she'd never play that. Before, she was a diehard fan of many bands (much of those that I liked)... nowadays, only a few. Radio is always a safe bet.

Towards the end of our relationship, I stopped voicing my opinion on why the music we were listening to was bad and just cringed anytime she was driving. In hindsight this dynamic spilled over into most facets of our life together.

As well man, as well. When communication and common interests fade, taboo themes start growing.

[Manic Miner]

Few weeks passed since we separated and here's the update.

1) Went to the counseling together. Not much good happened there, as expected. I did expect a tiny bit more. She started talking loud there like a child "No, I won't come back! I won't! Why should I? I'm so better alone and more peaceful!" If this weren't serious, it would be funny as hell - she said this in that typical childish tone. She's done but hoping "please can we be together?" somewhere in her mind.

2) She started texting me big messages how we are done, she's deeply hurt and how divorce is the only option, to conclude with "what do you offer for me to come back anyway?"

3) I offered for us to cool our heads and go for a weekend together, to hike and visit some historical neolithic locations. Her first response was "Do you want us to go alone or with our daughter?" which was a big surprise. Like how does her mind work at all? I said "however you like, if you think only two of us would be even better, alrighty!" She replied she will think about it.

4) Day passed, not a single text or message from her. No response, even though we agreed to at least text me how is our daughter doing. Anyway, 2 days ago she told she'd bring our daughter to me today to which I replied "of course, just say when I will be there", but completely forgot and started blaming our bad agreement, hardship of life and how I don't even know what's it like to live alone and get the job done with our daughter.

Really? I mean, she's at her parents house that do most of the chores, cooking, cleaning for her, no home bills to pay, tending our daughter when she's working. And I'm literally alone, with my animals, my little terrace garden and everything that needs to be cleaned, cooked, bought, looked after. With my job and everything. And I still find the time and keep up with agreements and promises. When she says this to me, I'd literally want to cut it all and be done with her for good. On a good note, she noticed her screw up and offered to bring our D to me later this day. This will make her drive 2x more. She couldn't just be done with it - hey I screwed up, I forgot. I needed to hear all the hardships of her life BS and how I don't even know. Sometimes I think she says that to soothe herself.

[ForeverDad]

My ex could not handle choices I offered her.  One time she she was to get our child then the next day was my holiday time.  She couldn't decide which of my offers to choose and so she blurted out she'd just keep him.  Not possible, but it was then I realized I should have just told her how I would handle it.  The less a pwBPD gets to choose from you, the less likely it can go sideways.

I often write the we here in support are typically very fair people, it's one of our fine qualities.  However, when dealing with these sorts of acting-out behaviors and perspectives, our sense of fairness is a downside.  So beware of your otherwise great sense of super-fairness and super niceness, it can sabotage negotiations.  Court doesn't care whether you are fair, nice or not.  And your ex will likely get a more than fair outcome.

[Manic Miner]

My ex could not handle choices I offered her.  One time she she was to get our child then the next day was my holiday time.  She couldn't decide which of my offers to choose and so she blurted out she'd just keep him.  Not possible, but it was then I realized I should have just told her how I would handle it.  The less a pwBPD gets to choose from you, the less likely it can go sideways.

I often write the we here in support are typically very fair people, it's one of our fine qualities.  However, when dealing with these sorts of acting-out behaviors and perspectives, our sense of fairness is a downside.  So beware of your otherwise great sense of super-fairness and super niceness, it can sabotage negotiations.  Court doesn't care whether you are fair, nice or not.  And your ex will likely get a more than fair outcome.

You're so right about that. It should be written in bold, so I did it.
If only I knew this ages ago my life (and hers) would be so much better. I always felt deep inside that it's always fair to be polite and offer choices to reach mutual agreement. In fact, without choices I'd feel like I'm forcing someone or something.

But yeah, many times I hesitated or waited for her, it went downhill and was even blamed for my indecisiveness, with lots of ? above my head, as I couldn't comprehend why.
The best outcome was always when I had 2 plans ahead and just presented it - we do this and that. Full stop. That's dictatorship in my book, but the more I live the more I see that some people need that, otherwise total anarchy is on the rise.

Maybe I'm masochistic but I still deeply care about her. I wouldn't want anything bad to happen to her, my caretaker role is inside me for good I guess. She's a caring mother of our girl as well. If I knew she'd be alright by herself, on her own (with our daughter ofc), I'd feel tremendous relief. She's smart, artistic, excels at her job, but there was always me to hold her back and do the backstage work. I always joked that I had two children with special needs - my daughter and my wife. 

[EZEarache]

Thanks for the update, I was wondering how you are fairing. It sounds like you are still in limbo and hoping for a more positive outcome.

forgot and started blaming our bad agreement, hardship of life and how I don't even know what's it like to live alone and get the job done with our daughter.

From my experience you can expect this to be a constant refrain. Even after we moved into a 50/50 split arrangement, I've been told I'm still not living up to my end of the agreement for making the mistake of asking her opinion on a medical issue.

On a good note, she noticed her screw up and offered to bring our D to me later this day. This will make her drive 2x more. She couldn't just be done with it - hey I screwed up, I forgot. I needed to hear all the hardships of her life BS and how I don't even know. Sometimes I think she says that to soothe herself.

This will most likely come with a price tag in the future, as well. If you ever make a similar mistake, I advise you do the same thing and drive twice as far, or you'll never hear the end of how, "I did it when..., and you can't even return the decency... etc."

Best wishes, and I hope you continue to find the best path forward for you both.

[Manic Miner]

From my experience you can expect this to be a constant refrain. Even after we moved into a 50/50 split arrangement, I've been told I'm still not living up to my end of the agreement for making the mistake of asking her opinion on a medical issue.

Thanks on good wishes. At least your ex gave you 50/50. Mine doesn't even want to think about it. D is her and it's end of story. Can't be reasoned and both parents need to co-op for 50/50.

When asked why, what is she afraid of, I don't get any reasonable answer. My take is money. In 50/50 there is no alimony. I told her I'd offer some monetary support even in 50-50.

Can anyone perhaps give a hint what is going on here?
A lot of fathers not only disengage and even give up custody, esp. children with disabilities. I'm completely the opposite. If anything she should be happy and relieved, but to no avail.

What is she scared of? That she'd be lesser mother of we shared parenting? That my D would love me more, abandon her? Or something else? She does seem obsessed about her motherhood.

[Brooklyn1974]

Maybe I can help with my opinion.  Been married to a BPDw of 18 years.  Didn't know it for the first 10 years until the psychologist told me what BPD was and that she has it.  What I've learned is that we will never, ever be able to 'fix' or 'transition' them into what we need.  Our needs, our wants, what our soul needs is not going to be fulfilled by them, at least that's IMO of mine.

I look at my wife who is very intelligent but has the emotional IQ of a teenager.  IMO your wife has you painted black and it takes a very long time for them to get you out of that color.  I asked my wife once, do you see life in black and white?  She looked at me dumbfounded and said 'there is not any other color'.  Not sure about your wife but mine there is no 'gray'.  I can not have a disagreement with her with out her looking at me in black.    There is good and hate, nothing in between.

You have to ask yourself do you want to continue to live your life this way?  One day or one week good, though you can't enjoy it because you are waiting for the next turmoil to start.  What I learned are two main things.. I cannot be her counselor and husband at the same time (ie. trying to fix her or giving her psychological, emotional advice) all that ends up being is me being the emotional punching bag.  She has to fail and I have to step away from yet picking up the pieces once again.  She will blame, curse then try to use her power of persuasion to get me to 'fix' but I have to stand strong.  Second is to not engage.  Don't JADE (please look that up).  When she's on her tangent all I say is 'Im sorry you feel that way, I can understand'.  If she continues and she starts to berate me I then tell her 'I will talk to you when you decide to calm down' and then walk away.  This has to do with boundaries and it's boundaries for you, not her.  It's to save yourself.

Relationships with BPDs are very tiring and not very fulfilling (again IMO with mine).  You continue to walk on eggshells and can really never feel any security with your spouse.  Unless she is diagnosed as a BPD and willing to do specific therapy for that then you really need to concentrate on you.  You also need to be careful that your daughter as she grows up does not start this type of behavior or become emotionally abused by your wife.  It's very easy for the BPD spouse to use the child as a pawn in getting you to do what she wants.

Just remember the only way to win the game is to not play it.  Be there for your daughter and yourself, always putting yourself #1 priority.  You can't help her unless you are ok yourself.

[livednlearned]

Another member here once commented that pwBPD have the emotional IQ of a child.

And many of us who fell for pwBPD have the emotional IQ of a slightly older child.

 

The difference is that we have a straighter path to self-awareness (identity is less amorphous) and from self-awareness the path to change is a bit more well lit.

BPD emotional deficits are so much easier to point at, so much more exasperating, so irrational. From our place on the spectrum of emotional maturity, we are in a better but not great spot. If you are with a BPD partner, the focus is on them, their behavior, their issues, where they get it wrong. How we are better at this than them.

It's a seductive, aggravating and ultimately fruitless place to be if you are seeking change.

The issue is that there is more to the spectrum, to the right or whatever. It gets better the further along the spectrum you go, but it's a hard journey and hurts (like physical pain). Why would a partner change for us if we aren't exactly rushing to explore what that means for us?

My own life was a masterful construction of pain avoidance, the kind that can feel even worse than being in a BPD marriage.

If you are struggling in a marriage with (let's say) mild BPD (still severe), meaning generally cooperative, not dangerous *or* not cooperative, not dangerous (versus not cooperative and dangerous), there are hard questions about what kind of work you're willing to do on you, and whether you have the strength. No one would judge you for feeling tired after 23 years of BPD symptoms.

It won't feel fair to focus on you when her issues are worse. But change won't happen if you focus on her issues. It just won't. This board is evidence enough.

Both my H and I are recovering codependent personalities. We were both married to people with PDs. We both grew up with PDs in our FOOs.

I can't speak to change within a BPD marriage because my BPDx was dangerous and that was a riskier journey with less promising statistics for success. We all have a different threshold and the details do add up.

I can speak to change in a double (recovering) codependent marriage, meaning we both experience arrested emotional issues around vulnerability and intimacy, mostly because of the way we were raised and shamed, then isolated, and ultimately stunted. It's like parts of our emotions were paved over.

We both grew up in households with emotionally immature parents. They provided, they worked, they paid bills, they got us to school on time and took care of shelter. But our homes were emotional hazard sites. Alcohol more or less substituted for skilled handling of strong feelings. 

I eked out 10+ years of therapy and H has had none. He is more emotionally allergic than me, though I recognize in him what was true in me prior to excruciating pain in therapy. This makes me the de facto emotional leader, which means I focus on me and work from there on out. In response, he changes, not all the time but enough.

It is not different with BPD loved ones altho the radical acceptance is tougher. I have a BPD adult stepdaughter whose traits I work to neutralize by applying skills learned here. Radically accepting her limitations has been crucial and from there, focusing on what I could change. This always comes back to whether I find the strength. It is a bitter pill to swallow when there is a truckload of PTSD from a lifetime of pathologic people. Why would anyone sign up for this?

Then really try to answer that. It can be profoundly useful to use BPD aggravations to figure out what is going on with you, and then work from there. See if there is any relief, whether any change happens in your partner when you go there.

I wish I could say it can't hurt, but it does! It's just pain for a reason that can lead to healing if not greater clarity.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Can anyone perhaps give a hint what is going on here?
A lot of fathers not only disengage and even give up custody, esp. children with disabilities. I'm completely the opposite. If anything she should be happy and relieved, but to no avail.

What is she scared of? That she'd be lesser mother of we shared parenting? That my D would love me more, abandon her? Or something else? She does seem obsessed about her motherhood.

When my father and mother separated, I was 3 and I can only tell you what my father went through. I was always closest to him, so he asked to have 50-50 custody. He was seeing a psychologist too at the time, and she pressured him into getting at least 50% custody.

My mother did not mind sharing my brother, but when it came to me, I was hers and hers alone.

He had to threatened that he would go to court, that he would expose her alcoholism. She finally accepted the 50-50. But she did many things to make it very difficult. She would change my school without noticing him for exemple. He had her over and over on so many things to respect MY wishes as a child.

The way I see it: it was payback.

My father loved me and as much as she loved me, it wasn't about me. It was about her own pain. She thought : if he leaves me, he won't ever see our daughter again. Pay back. Plain and simple. For abandoning her. To this day, she still hates the man.

Thankfully, in the end, she had to accept the 50-50 arrangement.

I am grateful to see you are fighting to see your daughter and have custody of her. This is of the utmost importance. Having one safe home on two was a life line for me. I am convinced this is the reason I didn't develop BPD myself.