I moved out, and it was an awful day

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

uBPDw with two kids, S10 and S8. 

My previous post from one year ago was titled, "Should I move out?"  Well, after an up-and-down year, I finally decided to move out and end the relationship a few weeks back.  Last week, I was at an Extended Stay when W asked me to come to the house to take care of the kids so she could visit her father in the hospital 9 hours away.  I did that and had a great time with the kids while she was gone.  I also used that time to find an apartment and sign a lease.  Today I texted W on her way home and told her I found a place and that I had already told the kids that I was moving out.

Was it the right decision to tell the kids I was moving out without letting her know first?

I wanted to tell the kids without her to avoid the drama and give them a safe space to share their feelings.  They were sad, but I was there to comfort them and tell them it was going to be OK.  They seemed to be OK with it (although who knows, right?), but when W got home tonight, all hell broke loose.

She started rummaging through the things that I had packed and removing things that were "hers" or "a gift" (I was very conservative with what I took from the house).  There was an almost-physical confrontation in front of the kids (fighting over things I wanted to take, but she didn't want me to take), which I felt terrible about.  I didn't want them to see that.

The situation was escalating, so I lovingly told my kids goodbye and left, while my wife screamed, "This is all your fault!  You did all of this!"  I'm so sad my kids experienced this tonight; I believe they will remember it for the rest of their lives.

I believe my wife is going to implement the parental alienation technique to get the kids to side with her against me, and it breaks my heart.  I want our boys to have great relationships with both of their parents.

Did I do anything wrong here?  What can I do better next time?

[sterlingblue]

uBPDw with two kids, S10 and S8. 

My previous post from one year ago was titled, "Should I move out?"  Well, after an up-and-down year, I finally decided to move out and end the relationship a few weeks back.  Last week, I was at an Extended Stay when W asked me to come to the house to take care of the kids so she could visit her father in the hospital 9 hours away.  I did that and had a great time with the kids while she was gone.  I also used that time to find an apartment and sign a lease.  Today I texted W on her way home and told her I found a place and that I had already told the kids that I was moving out.

Was it the right decision to tell the kids I was moving out without letting her know first?

I wanted to tell the kids without her to avoid the drama and give them a safe space to share their feelings.  They were sad, but I was there to comfort them and tell them it was going to be OK.  They seemed to be OK with it (although who knows, right?), but when W got home tonight, all hell broke loose.

She started rummaging through the things that I had packed and removing things that were "hers" or "a gift" (I was very conservative with what I took from the house).  There was an almost-physical confrontation in front of the kids (fighting over things I wanted to take, but she didn't want me to take), which I felt terrible about.  I didn't want them to see that.

The situation was escalating, so I lovingly told my kids goodbye and left, while my wife screamed, "This is all your fault!  You did all of this!"  I'm so sad my kids experienced this tonight; I believe they will remember it for the rest of their lives.

I believe my wife is going to implement the parental alienation technique to get the kids to side with her against me, and it breaks my heart.  I want our boys to have great relationships with both of their parents.

Did I do anything wrong here?  What can I do better next time?

[ForeverDad]

I think you did fine.  Telling the kids when you had time with them alone was a great idea.

Her raging, if anything like the disordered spouses described here, was predictable.

Looking back, I think you'll agree that you should have moved your stuff out before she returned.  I had a similar experience years ago after my divorce was final.  I was required by the settlement to split half our collectibles.  I'd accumulated some of them even before we met.  This is what I emailed my lawyer afterward:

I have given her over half the Harmony Kingdom collectibles.  I brought all our cups, saucers and pitchers from the china cabinet on January 25, 2008, for her to pick out her anniversary gifts.  Against my protests, she took them ALL.

I was so peeved, I had thought we'd split them.  I was foolish to bring some that were especially precious to me, painted birds on decorative antique cups.  I meant to be fair and each of us select a few at a time but sadly fair is a subjective term to self-focused people.

[sterlingblue]

Thank you, Forever dad. Your reply means a lot to me.

[kells76]

Seeing it similarly to FD -- so many parents here agonize over "when do we tell the kids together, how do I make sure she is on the same page with me to tell them"... and the other parent stonewalls, delays, foot-drags, sabotages, etc, the whole plan to "tell the kids together". I don't think you did anything wrong to tell your boys when it worked for you. If you're at the point where you need to separate from your W because of dysfunction, it isn't really realistic to expect that "but when we figure out when to tell the kids we're divorcing, of COURSE we'll be able to cooperate!"

I suspect that if you had tried to "tell the kids together", there would not have been space for you to be you in how you told them. I think you did the best you could in telling your boys on your own, and gave them a more low-volatility experience. It's sad that reality for so many parents here is that it's neither healthy nor feasible to "present a united front" to the kids when sharing about divorce.

Any parenting plan in place yet?

Strongly recommend counseling for your boys, to counteract the manipulation/alienation-type behaviors that may be coming from their mom.

Glad you came back to update us. So sorry about everything your family is going through.

kells76

[sterlingblue]

Thank you, Kells, for your thoughtful reply.  It means a lot.

I agree with you about counseling for the boys, but my wife will fight it.  "Covid" will be an excuse for why they shouldn't do it in person at least.

Still looking for an attorney.  It has been hard for me to find one with experience dealing with BPD.

-sterlingblue

[pursuingJoy]

This brings up memories. Please know we're here to support in any way we can.

I agree with kells and FD. I think you did a good job with all of this. I'm glad you got some quiet time to tell the kids. How did they respond? In your absence, is your ex likely to be roping them into taking care of her?

When I told ex I was moving out, I found a place for me and my 3 kids and one day I got a truck and a few friends and just loaded up what I felt was fair. Ex came to the house unexpectedly to see the moving truck and he was fuming. For years I felt really bad about not having communicated better until a friend told me repeatedly, "You are not responsible for him anymore." I also realized that it was likely the most healthy, safe way to rip the bandaid off. Keep the focus on your self-care and the kids' well being. You've got this.

Pick your battles and expect more pettiness. Almost two years after we separated, my ex demanded that I give the engagement ring back. We were married for 9 years, the diamond was a gift from a family friend and his mom paid $75 for the setting - this still blows my mind. He also wanted pots and pans his parents had gifted us. Was not worth fighting. I gave them both back.

[ForeverDad]

Is your new apartment large enough for the boys to be with you there too?  Last thing you want is for the ex to file a claim that the new apartment isn't large enough for the boys to have their own room.  Typically size of an apartment isn't a valid issue unless it's a shoe box, but any and all obstructions can happen whether valid or not.

I agree with you about counseling for the boys, but my wife will fight it.  "Covid" will be an excuse for why they shouldn't do it in person at least.

I recall when I asked my lawyer about counseling, he replied, "Courts love counseling!"  So if it does come up as an issue in court, your ex opposing counseling probably will fail.

However, you don't want your ex to pick a counselor, she would shop for a compliant, biased or gullible one.  A strategy courts like is when both parents are involved in the choice.  How to do it well?  YOU research and compile a short list of vetted, experienced, competent counselors (also in your insurance network).  Then (if you're in a court hearing) your EX choose from that vetted list.  That makes it harder for her to just go off and unilaterally do whatever she wants.

Still looking for an attorney.  It has been hard for me to find one with experience dealing with BPD.

Relatively few family law attorneys will identify BPD, NPD or other acting-out Personality Disorders.  Even psychologists and therapists are hesitant to do that, especially if they haven't personally assessed the person.

I recall my divorce lawyer estimated my divorce at 7-9 months.  Toward the end  (it became 23.5 months!) he exclaimed she was bats*** crazy and once exclaimed she was a sociopath who could lie successfully with a lie detector.  Even so, he never once voiced my suspicions she was undiagnosed BPD.  Post-divorce, even our Guardian ad Litem (GAL, son's lawyer) described many of her poor behaviors but never once mentioned a specific diagnostic possibility.  And the magistrate also was vague on the matter, stating in the decision that ex needed counseling but not requiring it.

Have you read our essential handbook Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by William Eddy & Randi Kreger?  If not, you need to get it now.  It describes how to find a proactive experienced lawyer.  Sadly, our sort of cases require more than a forms filer and hand holder.

One method we've mentioned here is, while interviewing prospective lawyers in a consultation, ask, "If you personally were facing a difficult divorce with real risk of high conflict, from which local lawyers would you select?"  That's a valid question, a good lawyer will know not every person walking in the door will become a client.

Pick your battles and expect more pettiness.

So true.  You may win or lose some battles and skirmishes, but think overall and long term, you of course don't want a war but that's your goal, to win the war... for a life of peace and a life for your kids of stability and peace.  Ponder each situation that arises, how important is it, can you let it go or should you make a stand?  The years of compliance, acquiescence, deference and passive acceptance are past.  The time for standing up for yourself and your kids (but in the proper ways) has come.

Think time-proven strategies.  We in peer support are a source of immense time-tested collective wisdom, having learned what usually works and what usually doesn't.  We've been there, done that.

[sterlingblue]

I leased a 2BR condo, so big enough for me and my kids (who share a room).

Wife thinks it is too expensive.  She demanded I cancel the lease and said she would contact the landlord herself.  I don't think she'll follow through with that, but who knows.

I simply told her I would not cancel the lease and that I would not answer her calls tonight.

I feel bad about signing a lease without discussing it with her; however, from previous experiences, I believe she would have disagreed with whatever option I chose.

Thanks again for the replies and support, all.  It really helps.

[sterlingblue]

OP here with an update.  I am moving into my apartment tomorrow and at a hotel in the meantime. 

I had arranged with W to see the kids after work tonight, for the first time since our fight when I left.  She told me I was no longer welcome at the house and suggested I arrange a "covid-safe" activity, so I planned mini-golf.

I arrived at the house at the scheduled time.  S8 was excited to see me, but S10 was sulking in his room.  He said he didn't want to go with me.  W was in the doorway with a smirk on her face watching this.  She demanded I give her the keys because I no longer live there.  I said no because I own the house, so she said she was going to change the locks.  I don't know if she'll do it.

After hearing the arguing and his brother not wanting to go, S8 then said he didn't want to go either.  I tried to convince him and W said, "Well, you shoulda built a relationship with them when you had the chance"... she said it right in front of the kids!

Nothing positive was coming from me being there, so I told the kids I loved them and left.

I'm in a tough spot: 1) Moving into an apartment with no furniture that is 10 minutes away from the kids' house and school; 2) W practicing parental alienation to hurt me, which is turning the kids against me and hurting them in the process; 3) No friends or family who understand -- I tried to talk to my dad tonight, but I guess W had already talked to my stepmom and it seems they are kinda on her side; 4) No attorney; 5) A crazy and stressful work environment in the middle of all of this.

On the plus side, I have a good therapist and this group who gets it.  But it's hard right now.

[Couper]

W was in the doorway with a smirk on her face watching this. 

That is just evil.  I am so sorry your are having to contend with this nightmare.  Use her actions as your motivation to be the best example that you can for your boys so that they can grow up seeing the difference between right and wrong.  So long as you do right, you won't give them a reason to validate any lies she may have told them.  Things will assume a positive trajectory here soon.

[ForeverDad]

This is a hard time, for sure.  But the good (less bad?) aspect is that the farther you step down this path, the easier (less difficult?) each step will be.

Do you have William Eddy's Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder handbook?  It has a chapter on selecting an experienced family law attorney in your local area.  Not just any lawyer is sufficiently capable to handle difficult or high conflict cases.

Now is the time to get the kids back into counseling, or start counseling if they've never gone.  At the least you can inform the school's counselor and the boys' teachers.  Make sure school admin and teachers understand you didn't stop parenting and if your spouse states otherwise then to emphasize they listen to you no less than to her.  (Unless family court orders otherwise then both spouses have equal standing, legally.)

The same goes for parenting.  By default you two parents have equal parenting rights.  If you can't agree (already happening to you) then you'll probably have to resolve the differences in a legal scenario.  Most courts start with assigning temp orders.  Be sure to stand up for yourself and the kids.  Too many courts (like mine) default to mother getting control in the temp order, with father told to pay and accept alternate weekends.  (My then-spouse was facing a Threat of DV case and she still got temp custody and temp majority time for the entire length of our 2 year divorce.)

Looking into the future, sometime during the divorce she will have to relocate since it is your house.  (A lawyer will tell you whether your state views the house as community property.)  She will try to stay as long as she can but if you decide to sell it and possibly split the equity then she'll still end up having to relocate.  It is a very complicated topic so that's just an overview for now.

(1) Find an experienced lawyer who has strategies and experience with difficult cases.
(2) Get regular parenting time with your boys as soon as possible, with a goal to have 50/50.
(3) Get counseling for the boys.  Courts like counseling so if mom refuses, eventually the court will support you.  (One strategy is for you to vet a short list of good counselors, in-network for insurance, and let her pick from that vetted list.  Letting her pick and choose any counselor will result in her picking a gullible, inexperienced or compliant counselor.)  Likely that is a request to make from the very first court hearing, or in the first paperwork your lawyer drafts.

[sterlingblue]

Thank you so much, Couper and ForeverDad.  Your replies and advice are extremely helpful.