Instances of Objectification

[Sappho11]

Central to all personality disorders is the affected person's inability to recognise other people as fully-fledged human beings. I think many of us noticed relatively early on that our respective partners were treating us oddly. Recalling these incidents might make it easier to recognise and avoid people exhibiting these patterns in the future.

[Sappho11]

My ex had an obsession with what he called "snapshots" and "moments". I noticed he interacted with others, but especially with romantic partners, only in the frame of these mental still lifes.

He confessed his love to me on a long walk in the forest, after he had meticulously told me of previous so-called "memories" or "moments" in his life: Meeting a girl he liked ten years ago, but her unattractive friend barging in between them; that unattractive friend becoming his girlfriend; him eventually ending up in bed with the girl he actually liked; the affair not going anywhere, but him instead dramatically making up with the unattractive friend like in a romcom; sticking with her for eight years and making lots of cutesy memories, such as drawing a heart with initials on the shower cubicle walls after every shower, etc.

He seemed to have no concept of these women as autonomous personalities. They only seemed to serve as extras in the mental film of his life.

The day after our fateful walk in the forest where he confessed his love and told me he was going to break up with his girlfriend, I asked him how he was. His answer: "Last night is a memory, no question about it." I thought this was a cold and weird way to answer the question, but unfortunately I disregarded my intuition.

During the first month, we did lots of romantic things (all of which I happened to arrange and/or suggest), looking at the stars on lonely mountaintops, picnics, viewing lakes and waterfalls, listening to music in the parked car in torrential rain etc. He'd always declare: "This. This is another memory." In the very moment it was happening.

I allowed myself to be conditioned to this – to want to provide him with ever-new "memories". Needless to say, this was impossible to do.

I asked him why he never invited me out for dates, why he never came up with anything he wanted to do, places where he wanted to go? (Major , I know now.) He claimed he didn't know anything... Ok, but couldn't he google something? He'd immediately change the subject.

My feelings only mattered if they happened to serve his interests at that particular moment. I was there to provide him with admiration, validation, domestic and sexual services, and most of all, entertainment.

After a few months, he downgraded the "memories" to what he called "snapshots". "What you said to me in bed earlier... that was another snapshot." "[An event he accompanied me to against my will] was another snapshot." They became fewer and farther in between. The last "snapshots" happened right before the two discards; both of them instances where he had simply imposed his will upon me.

It was almost as if he had got all the entertainment value I could possibly provide out of me, and once there was nothing left to top it with, he was done.

Never again.

[Sappho11]

Another one. Everything I did for him, he took for granted. He complained he wasn't feeling at home at my place, so I emptied drawers and bought furniture and tons of knick-knacks for him, from a whole gaming desk to particular coffee mugs he liked to commodities like toiletries. He rarely said "thank you" – and on the rare occasions he did, he had this strange, empty look on his face. Furthermore, he never tired of complaining about the things I didn't buy for him (such as a shoehorn; I ended up researching them and eventually told him to buy one himself, but he never did).

I put food on the table two to three times a day for eight months, yet he complained I was "never" cooking for him, particularly on the three or four exceptional evenings when he did some cooking. He had offered that he would do so, yet was annoyed at my taking up the offer, and wouldn't cease to complain about "all the times he had to cook for me", that this wasn't "normal", etc.

I was expected to be at his beck and call, but when I was sad because of something and needed him, he'd be disgusted and/or fly into a rage.

It only occurs to me now that this is how you treat an object. You don't say "thank you" to your car every day for reliably taking you to work. But when it stops functioning for some reason, you curse at it and yell "Why now, all of a reason!" And when it's too much trouble to get it fixed, you have it scrapped and buy a new one instead.

This is how pwBPD treat us non's, and why they treat us the way they do.

[grumpydonut]

I am not a person who cries often, and I believe I've cried in front of about two or three people in my entire life.  

After she cheated on me, we made up. Then when we went to the grocery store, I broke down. The thought that I had fooled myself into believing everything was going well, only to have that ripped from under me broke me, and I started crying.

Her reaction was of not really taking any responsibility for why I was crying. She was like a statue, just standing there, doing nothing. She didn't try to console me, she was just...there? My emotions were an inconvenience, and it was as if she couldn't understand why I'd be upset. She knew why, but she couldn't empathize.

Other than that, no matter how often I took her somewhere, bought her something, did something for her, within two days it was as if it never happened. She'd complain that we never did anything, etc. Looking back, I felt like a utility, not a human. I was there to make her feel good at all times. And each time I made her feel good, it would increase her expectations for the next thing I would need to do. It was never enough.

[Sappho11]

I am not a person who cries often, and I believe I've cried in front of about two or three people in my entire life.  

After she cheated on me, we made up. Then we went to the grocery store. I broke down. The thought that I believed everything was going well, only to have that ripped from under me broke me, and I started crying.

Her reaction was of not really taking any responsibility for why I was crying. She was like a statue, just standing there, doing nothing. She didn't try to console me, she was just...there?

I'm so sorry to hear that, grumpy. Good riddance to her and her soulless, egotistical ways!

Other than that, no matter how often I took her somewhere, bought her something, did something for her, within two days it was as if it never happened. She'd complain that we never did anything, etc. Looking back, I felt like a utility, not a human. I was there to make her feel good at all times. And each time I made her feel good, it would increase her expectations for the next thing I would need to do. It was never enough.

Relatable. Very rarely I'd be upset about something unrelated to him and my ex would immediately make me feel guilty: "Can't you just be happy?" "I just need to be able to come home and find you in a happy state." "Why can't it all be good for once?" His complaints were so convincing that I really thought I was the problem for having normal emotions.

There was one day when I learnt that both my pet of seven years, as well as a beloved old lady acquaintance, were ill and likely to die sooner rather than later. It was the first time I really needed my ex for emotional support (which he had grandiosely promised) and I called to ask him whether he could come over to console me. He'd ignored the message I'd sent him hours earlier explaining the situation. His response when he finally picked up? "How often do you have these negative moods? - Do you keep a record of these moods? - Isn't your neighbour available?" This from a man who proclaimed he loved me and wanted children with me! I felt so alone and started crying. He sounded really disgusted and said: "Well, tonight is kind of a bad time" (he had wanted to play video games alone at home). I hung up.

He eventually showed up at my door, completely changed. He had put the mask of "caring, empathetic lover" back on. We sat on the couch and he held me close. I apologised to him over and over, telling him I was hoping he understood. He said "I don't understand it, but I see it."

 

That was probably the first and last time he even bothered. All subsequent dramas and pains I had to deal with on my own. Whatever it was, no matter how small the issue, it was always "too much" for him. Yet I was expected to be his emotional dumping ground 24/7.

As said, never again.

[grumpydonut]

Yeah, I can relate to that also.

I remember walking in my room once, and realising how alone I felt despite the fact I was in a relationship. I was the only one trying to keep it alive, and getting nothing in return but more misery.

[grumpydonut]

You know what it felt like? Sunken-cost fallacy. Thinking that I had invested so much, for so-little return, that it was too late to stop investing. I had to invest UNTIL I got a return.

But, as we know, they are a bucket with holes. You can pour all the water of the world into them, and it'll result in nothing kept in the bucket

[Sappho11]

You know what it felt like? Sunken-cost fallacy. Thinking that I had invested so much, for so-little return, that it was too late to stop investing. I had to invest UNTIL I got a return.

But, as we know, they are a bucket with holes. You can pour all the water of the world into them, and it'll result in nothing kept in the bucket

That's it exactly. Many of us will probably relate to an early feeling of "I should probably cut my losses", but soldiering on in the hope that it will get better.

While he was in full devaluation mode, I once wrote a loong letter to my ex about trying to explain that it wasn't normal that he expected gratitude for spending time with me, that I felt I had a lot to offer to a man and that I deserved a partner who would appreciate me the way I appreciated them.

He made a bizarre attempt at reconciliation, and of course was on his best behaviour for a day or two, then this became his favourite thing to say: "I deserve a partner who..." This became his standard phrase of manipulating me into tolerating whatever BS was dictated by his fancy that day. "I deserve a partner who lets me do my own stuff" (i. e.  doing whatever he pleases, while I was expected to have no privacy whatsoever), "I deserve a partner who doesn't nag me" (after I had calmly told him I was hurt that he was constantly in touch with his ex-gf of eight years), "I deserve a partner who trusts me" (after I refused to give him my email and phone passwords) etc. etc.

Nothing was ever enough, and nothing ever would have been enough.

[Sappho11]

Yeah, I can relate to that also.

I remember walking in my room once, and realising how alone I felt despite the fact I was in a relationship. I was the only one trying to keep it alive, and getting nothing in return but more misery.

This reminds me. Shortly before the final discard, I had signed up to a meetup site to meet new people – my ex always taunted me that I had so few friends (though he himself had none). My profile said that I wasn't looking for anything romantic, that I was in a relationship, but that I felt that loneliness was a generational problem of millennials and would anyone want to meet and solve this for all parties involved?

Messages came pouring in, many in the spirit of: "You're in a relationship and yet you're alone? How is that even possible? Something's wrong there". That's when it first dawned on me that maybe, something truly was wrong.

[Sappho11]

It only occurs to me now that this is how you treat an object. You don't say "thank you" to your car every day for reliably taking you to work. But when it stops functioning for some reason, you curse at it and yell "Why now, all of a reason!" And when it's too much trouble to get it fixed, you have it scrapped and buy a new one instead.

This is how pwBPD treat us non's, and why they treat us the way they do.

I wonder what the poor woman felt who completely enslaved herself to him for eight years until he broke up with her overnight. I remember his exact words to me on the eve of their breakup, said with a sense of pity: "The sad thing is, I'm really the best [thing] for her, but she just isn't the best [thing] for me."

How could I possibly believe just for a moment that that man had even an ounce of character...?

[poppy2]

Hey,

So I think there's a lot here to respond to, I'll just share my experience as a way of deepening the conversation.

There are different kinds of objectification, this list actually helped me a lot to understand that the discard is also a form of it (called 'fungibility')

I think that I was an object for my ex from the beginning, in the sense that she tried to 'collect' me to make herself feel good.. this is the narcissistic side. I noticed that, for example, she would become preoccupied with status at times, or mention a lot that she had friends who were doctors (as if this was the highest social good). It could also be that she comes from a working-class family but I think a lot of her admiration for me stemmed from what I reflected about her, rather than from any intrinsic good inside of me. It was in this sense I was an object from the beginning - I was in her 'orbit', and I also appreciated this - it was Corona and winter and I was lonely and somebody made me feel special. Where the line is between this and 'objectification' is hard to draw, exactly, but I have my own moments and I can relate to both of your moments too.

I think grumpys example, for instance, of a total lack of recognition of his needs is a failure of empathy, a stark disinterest in his emotional wellbeing. And it's also the emotional disability coming out (I feel you grumpy, I could read the 'total disinterest' on my ex's face when I was upset, to be honest it fills me with pity as I see their lack come out, and it's also really hurtful to find these things out 'in extremis'). Sappho's example is more subtle, in terms that her ex seemed incapable of 'humanizing' relations or memories with others, that they were simply part of a 'box' for him.

At the heart of a personality disorder, I think, is the gulf between how we experience such things and how they do. They probably don't think it's 'wrong' in the same way that we find these stories 'wrong'. What I'm trying to take from this thread is the thought - what would it mean to always see myself as a deserving subject? - rather than its opposite. I mention that because I think if I had a solid answer to this question I wouldn't have been so vulnerable to them.

So my spontaneous answers are: followed-through trust is a must in any relationship. People who need to stroke their own egos, or yours, are not fully mature, and however nice, seductive, or supportive they seem, ego insufficiency will always lead to conflicts or damage. If there is any sort of 'short-circuit' in their responses, take time and review how it really makes me feel before proceeding. I don't know about you two but I stayed in this last relationship out of FOG and manipulation, sure, but also because it was meeting a basic 'survival' need and it was easier for me to deny my rights than to confront the loss of this need. I mean, nobody wants to confront that loss, but I think if I had been able to see my ex for who she was, rather than who I wanted her to be ( and this is not easy, as she also hugely participated in this fantasy through mirroring and inventing a self, and who can prepare for that sort of crazy?), then I would have at least been able to acknowledge a lot of Ill-feeling inside myself, if not have been able to leave or get help.

on some level, even if we can't acknowledge or explain it fully, we know when something is wrong, when we have been objectified... and I think trusting that feeling is what I need to get stronger in. I mean trusting it the first time and being decisive about it. Because God knows they're not going to change...

[MeandThee29]

At the heart of a personality disorder, I think, is the gulf between how we experience such things and how they do. They probably don't think it's 'wrong' in the same way that we find these stories 'wrong'. What I'm trying to take from this thread is the thought - what would it mean to always see myself as a deserving subject? - rather than its opposite. I mention that because I think if I had a solid answer to this question I wouldn't have been so vulnerable to them.

Mine was a marriage of several decades, and yes, there was a chasm. The smallest of cracks could blow up instantly, and we were often miles apart in our memories and perceptions.

During the divorce, my attorney coined the phrase "no empathy and no regard for the law." At times, it was as if I was a fictional character that my ex was fighting while the two attorneys interfered. Any history we had was discarded. Neither attorney quite knew what to do to stop him at first, but we did get it settled without going to court. My clarity/closure was that both legal teams decided that I had to be a saint to have put up with him for so long and told me so. Unfortunately, getting there was very expensive.

[Ad Meliora]

I felt like a garment, just one of her many.  I actually wrote that in the 3-pg letter I sent.  Here's an excerpt:

You wanted to touch me, but the key is in the holding. One needs to hold on to that which they love.  It’s nice to touch a beautiful silk scarf, but if you throw it in the corner of the closet what good is it then?  I’m not a piece of apparel to be brought out on certain occasions and paraded about only to be shoved back into the closet when not needed.  I gave you ample opportunity to show me your love, your need for me, but the words without the actions to back them are meaningless, absolutely meaningless.  

It wasn't just me that was an "object".  One night when I was about to come over she called me to tell me she didn't have any cat food for the cat.  She wasn't working (or doing anything) and she had a market two blocks away.  I felt terrible for her cat, and she loved that pet!  I did what I could for him while I was her partner.  Some of it was likely just her absentmindedness, but at least she let the cat out daily so it could crap in the bushes (if the box was full) and hunt for a mouse if it was hungry.  The few plants she had = dead.

Btw, I say "thank you" to my car when I get somewhere (sometimes).  I feel like at least I'm expressing gratitude to the universe for one thing going right.  I'd like that to continue and remind myself that "yeah, I am thankful it started and got me to where I'm going..."

[ILMBPDC]

You know what it felt like? Sunken-cost fallacy. Thinking that I had invested so much, for so-little return, that it was too late to stop investing. I had to invest UNTIL I got a return.

Christ this is a description of half my relationships
I know for a fact that had Mr BPD not cut me off 8 weeks ago I would still be trying to be what he wanted until he "chose" me finally.  (He initially split me in February, dated someone else for 4 months then we got closer again,  where I basically became his therapist with bonus sex - I feel like such an idiot saying that out loud, but I honestly felt like between the deep conversations and the physical attraction he might realize he still wanted me. Ugh.)

[jaded7]

My feelings only mattered if they happened to serve his interests at that particular moment. I was there to provide him with admiration, validation, domestic and sexual services, and most of all, entertainment.

It was almost as if he had got all the entertainment value I could possibly provide out of me, and once there was nothing left to top it with, he was done.

Never again.

I noticed that others have touched on this, but me having 'feelings' was always treated with disdain, even anger. I remember once- I'll never forget this- early in our relationship I was having a 'bad' day, some things had gone wrong, I was tired, whatever, nothing huge, just not a great day. I told her on the phone so she, quite coldly, asked if I wanted to come over for lunch. I did, it made me happy. I gave her a big hug when I came in, she was cooking at the stove. I sat down and we chatted and then I said to her, completely naively and vulnerably

"Can I have another hug?"

She turned, looked at me icily, and said "No. Too needy."

I was, of course, humiliated and embarrassed.

I couldn't have sad emotions, or hurt emotions from her behavior or words. She would get angry. I cried a couple of times, out of pure frustration and pain, and she said "I don't have time to manage your emotions!"

Meanwhile, I listened to her for hours a week complain about things, complain about her ex-husband, complain about how other parents were acting in her son's school. Calm, patient, listening, never saying "you need to..."