The "Perfect" BPD Family

[mitten]

What is the "perfect" BPD family?  In a "normal" family situation, the global consensus is typically 2 children.  And if you're really a "perfect" family you get one boy and one girl. 

Being in a romantic relationship with a person with BPD traits obviously has its own challenges and creates a whole different dynamic.  I currently have 2 boys with my high functioning uBPD spouse and the topic of a 3rd child is coming up as a daily subject. 

I'm curious to hear from those who have kids, rather they think more kids is better or just makes these unbearably more complex?  Does it make life more meaningful and help distract from the chaotic relationship with the BPD spouse?  Or is 2 children ideal so that they have have more 1:1 attention from me.   

This is my situation:
Married to a high functioning uBPD spouse (no self harming or abusing of substances)
We're financially secure and both work
2 young boys already
My wife is a great parent, her only fault is lack of boundaries and spoiling the boys
I'm planning to remain married
Part of me doesn't feel like the family is complete with 2 kids.  But the other part of me wonders if having 3 is wise with a uBPD spouse.

I realize this is a tricky question, so just looking for general thoughts, discussion and wisdom!

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[mitten]

Is there a BPD genetic component I should be considering before bringing more children into this world?

[Jabiru]

I think it's a personal decision that only you can make. My uBPD wife and I have postponed having children and may not have any because we're content as we are. Basically, I think you make your own "perfect".

[thankful person]

Hi my wife and I are married lesbians, we have two young children and she is the birth mother because she is fifteen years younger than me so it made sense. My wife loves being a mother and she is good at it, but I fear her jealousy of me in particular will become hard for the children in the future. For example her making it perfectly clear that I am never allowed to teach our children to play the piano, even though I am a piano teacher. I am also not allowed to play for pleasure because she is jealous of me. I would never push it on my children anyway but fear what will happen if they ever ask it of me. Anyway, pregnancy and breastfeeding have certainly been very hard on our family with my wife’s behaviour and jealousy and controlling demands being at its worst. However we underwent ivf and we have two more frozen embryos which we are going to give a chance at life. I guess we both see these as our children and our family. Despite everything I am hoping for a better future especially learning from the wonderful people here.

[Cat Familiar]

Is there a BPD genetic component I should be considering before bringing more children into this world?

Yes. I don’t know if it’s been specifically identified on the genome, but there is a spirited debate about personality disorders as a function of nature vs. nurture.

Many members here with a BPD spouse have reported seeing possible traits in their children.

[Cat Familiar]

https://www.apa.org/topics/personality-disorders/causes

[Cat Familiar]

All ten personality disorders are modestly to moderately  inheritable.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181941/

[mitten]

I think it's a personal decision that only you can make. My uBPD wife and I have postponed having children and may not have any because we're content as we are. Basically, I think you make your own "perfect".

Yeah, I understand what you're saying.  Do you think you would have made the same choice if you didn't have a uBPD wife? 

[mitten]

Anyway, pregnancy and breastfeeding have certainly been very hard on our family with my wife’s behaviour and jealousy and controlling demands being at its worst. However we underwent ivf and we have two more frozen embryos which we are going to give a chance at life. I guess we both see these as our children and our family. Despite everything I am hoping for a better future especially learning from the wonderful people here.

Pregnancy and the infant/toddler stage is so hard... I feel your pain.  It seems that you are finding a lot of meaning in your children, however.  Which is the same reason I'm wondering if I want one more. 

I even think out about 20 years, when my oldest one is an adult perhaps he marries and the family is extended.  This could create more joy and meaning and distract from the chaos of marriage to a uBPDw.  Maybe this is selfish of me?  Sometimes I flash forward to that time and wonder how I will survive being an empty nester...But who really knows!  It's impossible to know what life brings. 

[wish_list]

Having children aggravates the BPD situation. They now involve the children in their petty mind games and also they subject their children to their temper tantrums, make them feel worthless and seriously beat upon their confidence. I am thankful my older one made it out of the house and is in college now and my second one is bearing the brunt of his worsening depression and BPD. Trying to protect her as much as I can..

[mitten]

Having children aggravates the BPD situation. They now involve the children in their petty mind games and also they subject their children to their temper tantrums, make them feel worthless and seriously beat upon their confidence. .

Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of.  Fortunately, my uBPDw is currently a great mom to our newborn and 3 year old.  She struggles with boundary setting and spoiling the heck out of them, but that's about all at this point.  We started our family before I realized what BPD was...

[Cat Familiar]

Typically BPD mothers can be attentive and supportive when children are very young. It’s when children begin to individuate that problems occur. Thinking for themselves and not obediently following along creates major conflict with a BPD mother. And things typically get worse in teen years.

[mitten]

And things typically get worse in teen years.

So 3 may possibly be a bad idea...

[Hope4Joy]

I was just listening to Stop Caretaking the Borderline (Hoopla app through my library) and stopped the book as it was just talking about the phase of bargaining that I suspect many newer members here may be in. It mentioned having kids, getting a new job, new home, etc as a bargain in place of making the big changes that are actually needed. Mind blown.

We have one young child and no plans for more. I can only imagine having another making things so much worse. That being said if he said he wanted another I would have a hard time trying to put the brakes on logically.

I totally get what you are saying about being nervous about empty nesting one day too. The kiddo can be a good buffer from terrible behavior and help create distance with their own constant attention needs and such. We have a good while before they are grown to learn how to manage things…right?

[mitten]

I was just listening to Stop Caretaking the Borderline (Hoopla app through my library) and stopped the book as it was just talking about the phase of bargaining that I suspect many newer members here may be in. It mentioned having kids, getting a new job, new home, etc as a bargain in place of making the big changes that are actually needed. Mind blown.

Such a great book and that section resonated with me when I read it (listened to it on tape) too.  Before I knew what BPD was... it was one thing after another my uBPDw was chasing.  First thing was marriage, then it was a house, minute we bought the house she was looking for a bigger house, then it was a kid, then another kid, now maybe another kid.

The kids are an awesome buffer, selfishly.  Oh, mom needs some time to cool off... let's go to the playground.

[once removed]

i think the most important question here is how the two of you are as a team when it comes to parenting.

if you are asking if there is some risk in having another child, that the child would develop bpd, the answer is yes. how much risk, no one can say.

in every family, there are risks. a future child could inherit some sort of struggle that your wife doesnt even have, but a relative of yours, or hers, might have.

is there relative harmony in the household? is there relative harmony and team spirit when it comes to how the two of you raise children? do you know how she feels about the possibility of another kid?

[mitten]

is there relative harmony in the household? is there relative harmony and team spirit when it comes to how the two of you raise children? do you know how she feels about the possibility of another kid?

My uBPDw is high functioning, but of course it's still hard.  There is lots of walking on eggshells and me needing to be around all the time for her to be comfortable.  I'm trying to work on myself to make that better.  I need to gain confidence and not be so scared of conflict.  I think if I can improve this area of myself things could get better. 

I know she wants a 3rd kid as she is already talking about it.  I'm not sure our family feels complete yet with 2.  I'm not sure if I ever know, and that's also the point she is trying to make.  If we didn't have a 3rd would we always regret it... who knows...

[thankful person]

Mitten I haven’t any answers for you,  just wanted to share with you something I personally found out about “conflict” yesterday on my daughters 2nd birthday. I haven’t only just started to read “stop caretaking” but I am gaining more confidence to just be ok with my decisions to do “normal” things, even when attacked. My wife had far too much planned for the day, including taking the babies swimming at the hotel where we got married, which would have to be between 10-12, and the two year old still has nap time etc. I knew it wouldn’t work. But didn’t say anything of course. In the morning I video called my mum while dd opened some presents. And my wife said afterwards, “you’ve spent too long on the phone and now we can’t go swimming, the day is ruined…” So, when they say, “don’t jade…” I decided to say absolutely nothing… And somehow my wife got over the fact that the day was ruined and we went on to have a really good day. I am starting to learn some things. Like I always thought I was good with words. But with her… maybe it’s better if I learn to shut up. I say this because I know how it would have gone, had I chose to jade the video call. And the day would probably have been ruined.

[mitten]

So, when they say, “don’t jade…” I decided to say absolutely nothing… And somehow my wife got over the fact that the day was ruined and we went on to have a really good day. I am starting to learn some things. Like I always thought I was good with words. But with her… maybe it’s better if I learn to shut up. I say this because I know how it would have gone, had I chose to jade the video call. And the day would probably have been ruined.

This is really good insight.  I used to work so hard to try to convince my uBPDw that things were okay when she was having an episode, and we'd go in circles for hours... escalating things rather than deescalating things (usually late into the night).  Ever since I was able to tie her behavior to BPD traits it's been incredibly powerful, because it gives me permission to just stop talking and know that it's her, not me. 

Most recently I've learned that when she is criticizing me for something I have done, I will say, okay, I'm done discussing it.  Surprisingly that usually shuts her up!  Who would have thought it could be so easy? haha. 

[once removed]

Ever since I was able to tie her behavior to BPD traits it's been incredibly powerful, because it gives me permission to just stop talking and know that it's her, not me.

Most recently I've learned that when she is criticizing me for something I have done, I will say, okay, I'm done discussing it.  Surprisingly that usually shuts her up!  Who would have thought it could be so easy? haha. 

what sort of criticism are we talking about?

[mitten]

what sort of criticism are we talking about?

Just nit picky things- like I ran the laundry through the machine but put it on the couch and didn't fold it because I had to go to work.  Or I didn't empty the dishwasher because I planned to do it after work.  Or I didn't give our kids daycare the super special & specific EXACT directions about feeding our kids...maybe missing a tiny special detail. 

[Notwendy]

You say you have a newborn?

At this point, it seems that you don't have to decide right now. There are plenty of birth control methods that are not permanent, and if you are still thinking about it, I suggest you use one you have control over. As the baby gets older, you can revisit the idea if you wish.

I don't think there's a "perfect" number or  "perfect" family. It's a personal decision that each couple makes.

As to the genetics, while that is a  concern- the risks have been cited as higher, having a child who does not have BPD is possible. Being raised by a disordered parent has some risks as well. I found this article interesting however, it takes someone with BPD to actually admit they have it and seek help- but that isn't always the case.

https://www.verywellmind.com/i-have-bpd-does-this-mean-my-kids-will-get-bpd-too-425161


On the other hand, some families where an individual has BPD can only handle what they can do. But this is an individual decision.


From my own experience, I don't think it's necessary to make such a huge decision immediately if you have a newborn. That stage is physically and emotionally taxing. You can let things settle and see how it goes as the baby gets older.

[mitten]

You say you have a newborn?

Thank you Notwendy for reminding me to take time to decide.  Well technically my newborn just turned 9 months so the clock is ticking and my uBPD spouse is already trying to plant the seed...  She wants their ages pretty close together so they can play together... blah blah. 

[mitten]

I don't think there's a "perfect" number or  "perfect" family. It's a personal decision that each couple makes.

Hi Notwendy, I've been considering the size of a family from a parent perspective, and what we as parents can handle in our BPD family dynamic.  I started to wonder what it would be like from the child's perspective and wanted to get your take since your mother has BPD.  How many siblings do you have?  Did you feel like they helped support you and buffer you from your mother? 

[mitten]

Well the subject of a third child has come up again... with my uBPDw saying this morning... "You know if we get pregnant in October we'll have the baby the following summer and we can enjoy time off together...

Anyway, I'd like to make the decision independently of my wife, since we all know people with BPD aren't capable of making responsible decisions and before long she'll be pressuring me...  So I'm trying to formulate my own point of view before committing to another child.  2 children is obviously less expensive and less risky, but I'm just not sure I feel like our family is complete with 2.  Also, I'm realizing (selfishly) that children are a nice buffer to my wife... 

I realize that no one here can tell me how many children I should have... but any thoughts on ways to make the decision independently of my uBPDw? 

[bugwaterguy]

Having children is a very tough decision.

I am married 25 years with a 10 year old and a 17 year old.  My wife is looking for divorce.  I want to stay married, and I am making changes of my behaviors.  I cannot control her decisions.

No one likes to think about this - but if your wife decides to leave - how will that divorce affect your kids?  How would you feel about raising them as a single father?  How will 3 kids be different from 2?  

I know things got significantly worse with my wife after the second child.

I have another tough question for you.  Why do you think your family is incomplete with two kids?  You might need some serious self-examination about that question.  Are you subconsciously looking for the kid to fill in the hole that is missing because of your wife's BPD?

[mitten]

No one likes to think about this - but if your wife decides to leave - how will that divorce affect your kids?  How would you feel about raising them as a single father?  How will 3 kids be different from 2? 

Sorry to hear that your wife wants a divorce.  I've been following your story in the thread you started. 

We had our first child before I connected the dots to BPD.  Then we had another because at that point I was already fully committed to having kids and at least I figured our oldest would have company.  My uBPDw (high functioning) has actually been better since our 2nd child, although that may be in a large part of some of the boundaries I've put in place since I learned about BPD.  Also me not JADE'ing. 

I guess I tend to look at it this way... but is this right or wrong?  Being in a relationship with a BPD spouse is extremely difficult and can make your life really hard.  Does having children enrich your life and create meaning in the midst of all the chaos?  Also, does it give you someone to connect with when the uBPD isn't being pleasant.  I'm probably just being selfish...

*Disclaimer- I'm looking at this from a high functioning BPD standpoint.  If my wife were physically abusive, suicidal or addicted to alcohol/drugs, having more children would absolutely be a reckless decision. 

[bugwaterguy]

My uBPDw (high functioning) has actually been better since our 2nd child, although that may be in a large part of some of the boundaries I've put in place since I learned about BPD.  Also me not JADE'ing. 

My gut tells me it has been your changes in behavior and learning about BPD that have made things better, not the child.  But I could be wrong

Does having children enrich your life and create meaning in the midst of all the chaos? 

Yes - having children enriches your life and creates meaning. 
And there are many other ways to enrich your life and create meaning. 
Volunteering, working to help the environment, helping those who are less fortunate, improving public policy, start/help a support group in your area for family members with mental illness, helping at a religious institution (if that is your persuasion).

I guess I tend to look at it this way... but is this right or wrong?  Also, does it give you someone to connect with when the uBPD isn't being pleasant.  I'm probably just being selfish...

Putting it on your kid to give you connection when your wife is being difficult seems like an unhealthy mindset.  That is asking a great deal of your child.  It might be better to find an adult to commiserate with.  You could probably find someone on these boards who understands better.  (sorry if this is being too direct)

[Cat Familiar]

Simply put, more children = more stress. More stress for a BPD spouse = more dysfunctional behavior. BPD mothers are better with young children and often tend to be in conflict with adolescents and teenagers, especially if they are girls.

[Couscous]

Do you have a big, involved, supportive family who can basically stand in for your wife? As a daughter of a BPD mother I can tell you that I would never dream of having a third child and am barely keeping my head above water with two, and feel like I am failing them every day.

Two emotionally healthy parents can barely meet the emotional needs of two children on their own, much less a family containing a mother with BPD. You will also be increasing the odds of having a child develop BPD. My mother had 8 children, three of whom have developed BPD and one has BPD traits, and we all have Complex PTSD.

[mitten]

Thank you all for chiming in on this!  It's clear the member vote here is for not having more than the 2 kids I have, which also aligns with the worldwide 2.4 child view of the "perfect" family. 

My uBPDw came from a large family (6 kids) and my family had 4 kids.  So that may be why 2 kids to us doesn't seem like we're "complete".   Additionally, we live in an area where the average family size is 3 children.  I think if there wasn't the BPD component I would absolutely want 3 children, without hesitation.  I've always said that we'll take it one kid at a time before deciding "how many kids we want".  Rationally, I know that it's less risky to have 2.  Also less expensive (and we all know BPD spouses are not good with finances so any cost reduction helps).  I will be sad if we decide we are done having kids (I envision going to National Parks and having kids pile out of the minivan excitedly like I did growing up with my 3 other siblings), but there will also be closure and some relief that we can plan for our 2 boys' futures. 

So the other day I tested the 2 child thing... in front of my wife's sister... which was absolutely the wrong thing to do.  I alluded to being content with "our 2 boys" and it didn't go unnoticed by my uBPDw.  When we got home she said, so "you're content with only 2, guess I'll find another baby daddy".  I know she was joking about the baby daddy part, but she's clearly upset that I hinted at being done. 

So my question- if I decide it's best to be done having children, how on earth do I communicate this to my wife, when it's clear she wants 3?  Please also note that we have 2 boys now, so I'll definitely be blamed for not giving her a daughter...

   

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[mitten]

So my question- if I decide it's best to be done having children, how on earth do I communicate this to my wife, when it's clear she wants 3?  Please also note that we have 2 boys now, so I'll definitely be blamed for not giving her a daughter...

[bugwaterguy]

Here are my thoughts - take them or leave them

Wait for her to take the lead.

When she does say things, radically validate all her feelings.  Ask deep questions.  But don't agree to have more kids.

Talk to a counselor, by yourself, who is an expert in BPD to help you figure this out.

[thankful person]

So my question- if I decide it's best to be done having children, how on earth do I communicate this to my wife, when it's clear she wants 3?  Please also note that we have 2 boys now, so I'll definitely be blamed for not giving her a daughter...

I can’t answer this, but I’d like to know the answer. As I explained before, we have two young children plus two frozen embryos from one ivf cycle. My wife has always said she wants “a large family”. We both want to give the remaining two embryos that we created a chance at life. Which means we could have 4 children or potentially more of either of them becomes twins…
But I know my wife wants to do another ivf cycle, whether we have 2, 4, or 6 children from this cycle. I don’t want to do another cycle of ivf and it’s also very expensive. I am happy with the two girls we have, even though I hope the other two also get to join our family. I don’t know how to tell her this though. I think it will be particularly hard if the frozen ones don’t make it, because two children is clearly not enough for her. I know she would also talk about other means and also about leaving me, were I to tell her this. Whatever happens I’m glad our children have each other for support.

[mitten]

Talk to a counselor, by yourself, who is an expert in BPD to help you figure this out.

Unfortunately where I live it's impossible to find a counselor that specializes in BPD that is accepting new patients.  The mental health community is overwhelmed. 

[Dancingbear]

Everyone's situation and relationship is different and things may have been very different if I'd known about this a long time ago so I'd say you're already in a stronger position just knowing about bpd and being able to learn and use the tools.

I think it can get very tricky when kids get older - as they start developing their own ideas, deciding they don't want to do what you say, their emotions and needs become more complex to navigate. If you have a fiercely independent kid who's determined to do things their own way that could be very tricky for your pwbpd to handle.

[Cat Familiar]

Unfortunately where I live it's impossible to find a counselor that specializes in BPD that is accepting new patients.  The mental health community is overwhelmed. 

Try online counseling such as Talkspace or Betterhelp. You can ask for someone who is knowledgeable about BPD.

[Cat Familiar]

I think it can get very tricky when kids get older - as they start developing their own ideas, deciding they don't want to do what you say, their emotions and needs become more complex to navigate. If you have a fiercely independent kid who's determined to do things their own way that could be very tricky for your pwbpd to handle.

I wasn’t a “fiercely independent kid” but as I started making decisions for myself as an adolescent and teen, the fireworks began with my BPD mother. 

As long as I was her mini-me, things were great. Think *honeymoon phase* but for kid and mom. The moment I began to be *ME* and not a smaller version of her, that’s when the trouble began. And my mother was way more functional and much less impacted by her mental illness than those in many of the stories I read here.

[mitten]

So basically I'm hearing that it gets harder, not easier for a parent with BPD as the child gets older and more independent.  I think for "normal" parents the infant/toddler stage is supposed to be the hardest.  My mom was just telling me recently that I'm in the hardest stage and when the kids get in elementary school it's a sweet period where they can dress themselves, etc.  But with BPD everything is counter intuitive of course... 

[Cat Familiar]

Yep. Exactly!

[Cat Familiar]

Here’s a sobering article Couscous posted on a thread on the Parent/Sibling Board on how BPD parents can damage their children.  It’s harsh, but altogether true for those of us who’ve grown up in families like that.  https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/conquer-fear-flying/201312/borderline-personality-disorder-and-anticipatory-anxiety

[GaGrl]

I wasn’t a “fiercely independent kid” but as I started making decisions for myself as an adolescent and teen, the fireworks began with my BPD mother. 

As long as I was her mini-me, things were great. Think *honeymoon phase* but for kid and mom. The moment I began to be *ME* and not a smaller version of her, that’s when the trouble began. And my mother was way more functional and much less impacted by her mental illness than those in many of the stories I read here.

This was very much my experience also. My mother had several BPD traits, plus she was heavily influenced by having a uBPD/NPD stepmother who married my enabling grandfather when mom was 6 years old ( her own mother had died in the second pregnancy). My mom and sister and I coped well when Sis and I were small, although Mom was overprotective. But wow! When we hit the teens, the three of us dealt with a constant push- pull between Mom's control, her silent treatments, and our need for independence.

[mitten]

Here’s a sobering article Couscous posted on a thread on the Parent/Sibling Board on how BPD parents can damage their children.  It’s harsh, but altogether true for those of us who’ve grown up in families like that.  https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/conquer-fear-flying/201312/borderline-personality-disorder-and-anticipatory-anxiety

Thanks for sharing, Cat.  I think if I didn't already have two children with my uBPDw I'd really have a tough time with this one... knowing that I want to have a family but all the risks associated.  I guess now that that ship has sailed and I have 2 children, I'm wondering if 3 makes it worse?  Sure, there is more risk to 3, financial, health, genetics of BPD.  But is there any benefit to 3 from the children's perspective?  More buffering from their BPD mother, siblings for support, distraction from mom, etc.   

[Couscous]

Is your wife environmentally conscious? Having one less child is the most impactful thing you can do to reduce your carbon footprint.

If she isn’t concerned about the environment, then you will need to be OK with being seen as the bad guy, not get defensive, and prepared to give her lots and lots of validation for her feelings of disappointment.

I think that the more kids you have with a BPD spouse the more guilt you are going to have to deal with in the future when the impact of your wife’s mothering begins to reveal itself. Even if your kids do not develop BPD themselves, chances are insanely high that they will be attracted to BPD romantic partners. I know that my non-BPD father is rueing the day that he met my mother because of how it has caused his children, and now grandchildren, so much suffering.

But I imagine that unless you are willing to take a stand, which will entail taking responsibility for contraception, your wife will find a way to have that third child, come hell or high water. (And just as a reminder, you have a 50% chance of having another boy.)

[khibomsis]

hey mitten, we are 3 siblings. I am convinced my older brother is uNBPD. My parents are both dead and the trauma only really came to an end with uNBPD mom's death. I mean it got better the more I kept trying to set boundaries, but there was also the constant grief of the mother I never had, if you see what I mean.

I can just about make my peace with my awful childhood and youth (10 years' therapy and counting - sanity comes expensive!  ) . It was exactly as Gagrl and Cat described, the minute I discovered a will of my own at 16, that was it, mom and I fought all the time except when I lived elsewhere.

The problem now is that I and my other sibling have to find ways to take care of bro wBPD, without his consent because as far as he is concerned he is OK. But he has no one else and we don't really feel we can leave him to his own devices. And to keep an eye out for his kids, one of whom was already diagnosed but doing fine. Another kid is a drug addict so I don't really know if it masks BPD or not. The point I want to make is that these cares are for life. Parents you can see an end to, it might be sad, but it is nature. Siblings not.  

From the point of view of your children I would suspect it is important to direct what resources you have to creating stability, structure, boundaries, etc. Maximize their chances of being stable. So that they can do something else with their life than pay therapy fees and take care of others. My 5 cents