Couples therapy and boundaries? Interesting therapy session

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So, I had an appointment with my T yesterday that was rather interesting and gave me a lot to think about.

A little update: H’s behavior has improved somewhat. He hasn’t had a real dysregulation (one where it’s like he’s not “there”) in three months. We do have arguments, though. He continues to get hung up on his firing last year and the personal connections between my parents and some people involved. He also continues to harp on how much pressure is on him to make money since I don’t make enough to carry most of the load.

Anyway, yesterday, for the first time, my T said that she thinks BPD could be a possibility with H (she’s focused more on trauma and potential CPTSD). That his expectations and feelings about things tend to be irrational, he’s stuck in a victim good mindset, etc. This is not new to me but it was interesting to hear her say it.

She asked what I might think about attempting couples therapy with him. She put a lot of qualifiers on it: I would have to feel safe to be fully honest, we would each need solo sessions first, I’m the best judge of if I think it would help or hurt. Her thinking was, if it’s a good therapist who can be honest and see what’s really going on, who can speak truth to H, it would at least give me a clear answer. Does he accept it and really work on changing? Or does he deflect, avoid, etc.? At least I would know.

She wants me to think about it for a while and I will. I’ve been in a very “no therapy together” place for a while, so there’s a lot to process. From what she said, it sounds like she sees me coming to a real crossroads in my emotions and attitude.

She also talked about hard boundaries. It’s something I’ve been working on and I have improved but I know there’s still work to do. I know I can still fall into the trap of trying to help or fix things, though not nearly to the level I used to. That’s likely why things like his getting mad at me for not fixing the issue with my parents and their friends or my not “using my resources” to solve a problem with his ophthalmologist.

I’ve asked it before, but even after three years I struggle to find the balance. How do II refuse to rescue without being cruel and thoughtless? How do I know where the line is about when it’s normal spouse helping spouse and when it’s rescuing? As I said, I’ve gotten a lot better about stepping out and letting him deal, but I really don’t see a lot of improvement from him on that front. It’s something that takes time, I’m sure. But it’s really wearing me out to the point that I have compassion fatigue and, frankly, just don’t give a  about anyone of it.

[Ozzie101]

So, I had an appointment with my T yesterday that was rather interesting and gave me a lot to think about.

A little update: H’s behavior has improved somewhat. He hasn’t had a real dysregulation (one where it’s like he’s not “there”) in three months. We do have arguments, though. He continues to get hung up on his firing last year and the personal connections between my parents and some people involved. He also continues to harp on how much pressure is on him to make money since I don’t make enough to carry most of the load.

Anyway, yesterday, for the first time, my T said that she thinks BPD could be a possibility with H (she’s focused more on trauma and potential CPTSD). That his expectations and feelings about things tend to be irrational, he’s stuck in a victim good mindset, etc. This is not new to me but it was interesting to hear her say it.

She asked what I might think about attempting couples therapy with him. She put a lot of qualifiers on it: I would have to feel safe to be fully honest, we would each need solo sessions first, I’m the best judge of if I think it would help or hurt. Her thinking was, if it’s a good therapist who can be honest and see what’s really going on, who can speak truth to H, it would at least give me a clear answer. Does he accept it and really work on changing? Or does he deflect, avoid, etc.? At least I would know.

She wants me to think about it for a while and I will. I’ve been in a very “no therapy together” place for a while, so there’s a lot to process. From what she said, it sounds like she sees me coming to a real crossroads in my emotions and attitude.

She also talked about hard boundaries. It’s something I’ve been working on and I have improved but I know there’s still work to do. I know I can still fall into the trap of trying to help or fix things, though not nearly to the level I used to. That’s likely why things like his getting mad at me for not fixing the issue with my parents and their friends or my not “using my resources” to solve a problem with his ophthalmologist.

I’ve asked it before, but even after three years I struggle to find the balance. How do II refuse to rescue without being cruel and thoughtless? How do I know where the line is about when it’s normal spouse helping spouse and when it’s rescuing? As I said, I’ve gotten a lot better about stepping out and letting him deal, but I really don’t see a lot of improvement from him on that front. It’s something that takes time, I’m sure. But it’s really wearing me out to the point that I have compassion fatigue and, frankly, just don’t give a  about anyone of it.

[bugwaterguy]

Do NOT start couples therapy with someone either of you has been seeing individually.

Starting couples therapy with a new, objective therapist is an excellent idea.  You could even get a recommendation from your current therapist.

I entered into couples counseling with a therapist my uBPD wife was seeing and it went horribly.   

It is poor practice for a therapist to do this, because they already have a rapport with one of the members of the couple, and it interferes with their ability to be objective.  Your BPD partner might see the therapist as taking "your side"

Also there is a huge difference between couples therapy and individual therapy.  In couples therapy, the relationship is the client - not two individuals.  It is difficult for a therapist to be both an advocate for you individually, and the relationship. 

At the end of our failed couples therapy - my wife said "It isn't about the relationship getting better, it is about getting better individually" - when ideally both complement the other.   My wife also said "You need to be good with your own therapy before you can work as a couple" which is absolutely not true - couples and individual therapy can work great simultaneously.

Again, starting couples therapy with a new, objective therapist is an excellent idea.  Make sure the counselor you choose is very familiar with BPD. 

Also make sure they are trained for couples counseling.  Anyone can say they are a couples counselor, without any training in couples work.  In my state, the designation is LMFT (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist). (the failed counselor we had was not an LMFT)

Hopefully you can benefit from my mistakes.

[Ozzie101]

Thank you for sharing your experience! My T was definitely recommending a new, neutral couples therapist, so no worries there. But she did say many couples therapists like to meet one-on-one with the individuals early on. Also, he or she would need a heads-up about the past abuse.

[Cat Familiar]

You mention the idea of getting a *clear answer*. To what question are you referring?

How do you feel about yourself when asked to intervene in ways you find morally or ethically inappropriate?

If you come to believe that he is unwilling to take the steps to be less of a victim and quit putting pressure on you to rescue him, in what way does that impact you?

[Ozzie101]

My T seemed to be referring to: is real change possible on his end and is he willing to try?

When he wants me to do something I don’t agree with, I feel sick, confused (it turns me upside down as I try to sort out if I think he has merit or if I’m right or what). I feel frustrated. Angry. I don’t know how I feel about myself. I’ll think about that one.

It impacts me because I would know that this is it. I either have to find a way to live with it or make plans to leave.

[Couscous]

A good rule of thumb for me with regard to rescuing is refusing to do things for others that they are capable of doing themselves. In a situation in which your help is needed the rule is to not do more than 50% of the work.

In the book Why Does He Do That?, the author strongly advises against couple’s counseling until the perpetrator has been abuse free for two years.

If you do opt for couple’s counseling you will want to find someone whose devotes their practice to couple’s counseling exclusively.

[bugwaterguy]

With BPD, how do you know what someone is capable of doing for themselves?  It is a difficult line to walk

In "Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder" they say:

"But in many cases you also have to make sure you really understand what it is that your loved one is feeling—since masking emotion is so often behind displays of apparent competence— and what your loved one is capable of doing. This means not treating your loved one like he is fragile and, at the same time, not having unrealistic expectations of his behavior. ..., the tendency is for you to try to intervene for your loved one and do things for her. Doing so, of course, reinforces your loved one’s belief that she cannot do things for herself."

[GaGrl]

My T seemed to be referring to: is real change possible on his end and is he willing to try?

When he wants me to do something I don’t agree with, I feel sick, confused (it turns me upside down as I try to sort out if I think he has merit or if I’m right or what). I feel frustrated. Angry. I don’t know how I feel about myself. I’ll think about that one.

It impacts me because I would know that this is it. I either have to find a way to live with it or make plans to leave.

Is it possible that your therapist is narrowing the issue you are dealing with so that a couples counselor can help give you the clarity you need -- with your H in the room so you can fully see and hear his commitment and/or capability?

I think you've been moving toward resolving this for quite a while.

[ForeverDad]

Some other questions...

How long have I been in this relationship?

Has it gotten better or worse?  Is it continuing to get worse?

My point with these questions is to clarify that even with your past efforts it has become worse.  This is certainly not to blame you.  In a post a few years ago I read it described this way and have repeated it:

BPD is a disorder most evident in close relationships, the closer the relationship, the more evident the poor behaviors are.  Others may notice some "off" behavior but you get the brunt of it.  Due to the baggage of your close relationship your spouse can't or won't truly listen to what you've been saying.  This is why long term therapy with an experienced therapist is crucial for there to be progress.  You're tainted emotionally and cannot get improvements on your own, that is why an emotionally neutral professional *may* help whereas at best you've been treading water in the past.

Also, once you became committed to the relationship (married, moved in together, had children together, etc) the pwBPD probably felt freer over time to relax their initial on-best behaviors and increasingly began to demand, manipulate, vent, disparage, rant & rage, etc.  Many here lamented, "If only I could have back the person I first met."  Unfortunately that was the same person, just on best behavior which didn't last.

[Ozzie101]

It’s definitely a possibility.

I tend to be a passive person. Someone who tends to “grin and bear it” and put up with things rather than make a fuss. Look on the bright side. My tendency towards inertia is not a quality I’m particularly proud of.

Anyway, the counseling is something I am going to think about.

One of my concerns is that it’s a potential minefield. If I’m totally honest about things he’s done, he’ll likely lash out that I’m attacking him, or go into his “if I’m so horrible, why are you even with me? You act like I’m a monster.” Also, I know I’m not perfect and I share some of the blame for our problems. But, deep down, I believe most of the problems were caused by him — like my withdrawing and being hyper vigilant, a result of his rages and episodes. I do know my communication could use some work so maybe there’s a possible upside there.

I have  heard stories of loved ones who end up in an even worse position after therapy because the T believes the pwBPD. Or the sessions just give the pwBPD more ammo.

But, as you all say, by addressing it this way, I may get the irrefutable answers.

And thank y’all for your input re: rescuing!

ForeverDad:
In some ways, it has gotten better. His dysregulations happen much less frequently. And I’m better able to act by removing myself and/or not reacting emotionally — or seeing it as my fault and groveling.

That said, with growing clarity, I see more. I see the selfishness. The obsessive thoughts. The unreasonable expectations. The negative attitudes. The childishness. And that’s a big problem that makes me less likely to stay. It’s the Dr. Jekyll that keeps me here (that and fear/uncertainty). But Jekyll isn’t the full him.

And some of my learned behaviors, like hyper vigilance and the bag in my car trunk and being mindful to have certain things where they can be grabbed easily, are not normal or healthy.

[GaGrl]

My thought is that you begin couples counseling by talking about the hyper vigilance and the fact you keep a get-away bag in your car, along with the number of times you have used the get get-away bag.

Let your H respond to that.

[Ozzie101]

Good suggestion. My T said to really think about it over Christmas — while also trying to focus on some self-care and paying attention to my stress levels. I started a new job a couple of weeks ago, which keeps my stress levels higher.

We’ve gotten in a pattern where when he gets upset or stressed, he uses me as his stress-relief valve. He’s gone this week for work so I’ve been taking advantage of that to organize my thoughts and spot those patterns. Preparing some strategies for handling it the next time he does that. Ways to “hand it back to him.” It’s likely to trigger an extinction burst or at least some moping, but I’m no longer hesitant or afraid to just leave the house when I need to. Putting my own mental and emotional health first isn’t selfish.

[Cat Familiar]

Something I’d encourage you to do, Ozzie, is to Change Referential Index. This is a concept I learned in NLP: “finding someone else who has a way of thinking or a resource you wish to model (their Reference System), entering their model of the world and noting from their perspective.”

You’ve been analyzing this relationship from your point of view and in that POV, you tend to grant him more slack than you give yourself.

Imagine how a person you admire would view the entirety of your relationship.

[Ozzie101]

That’s an excellent point/suggestion, Cat. I’d actually started doing that, but not in a deliberate, conscious way. I had started to stop my self and think what my parents or my third sister would say or think.

It reminds me of something that was (partially) a turning point for me when things were really bad three years ago. My great-uncle, my late grandfather’s last surviving brother, had died and I went to his funeral. While I was there, it was if a lightbulb went on. I come from good people. I am a good person. I have been and still am loved. On the way home, I stopped in a parking lot and made my first call to a DV hotline.

[Couscous]

With BPD, how do you know what someone is capable of doing for themselves?  It is a difficult line to walk

If we're talking practical things, then the standard you would hold them to is the same exact standard that you would have for other adults. Of course, this could have dire consequences for the relationship because you would be breaking the unwritten contract you have made with the BPD who may not take kindly to the change.

I was amazed to see what happened after I stopped being the overfunctioner in my relationship with my "incompetent" uBPD mother: She "magically" started acting competently. However, with my uBPD brother, this didn't happen, but I finally realized that I could no longer care more about his welfare more than he did, and I had to finally confront my own limitations and accept that I was not capable of saving him from himself. This has brought up major feelings of powerlessness for me, which is something I am still having to work through.

[I Am Redeemed]

Couscous makes some really good points about how to differentiate between rescuing and supporting.

I was really caught in the trap of trying to figure out where the line was between helping and supporting a spouse as a loving partner and where was caretaking that I should not be doing. It's still fuzzy a little, but when I was in my relationship (which was very abusive) I wavered so much on whether his complaints about me "not helping" or "showing care and concern" were valid. When I look back now, I can clearly see that he wanted me to take responsibility for literally everything and basically make things as smooth sailing as possible for him, even if it meant extreme stress and overload for me.

Some things, like the job and the loose connections to your family, are easier to see as unreasonable. A person with good boundaries would not believe that your family should be held responsible for a professional relationship between your H and people they know. Other things get a little murky. When you have a spouse with poor boundaries who expects you to do any and every thing possible to make his life easier because he can't self soothe, it leaves you wondering if you are enabling or supporting, and if you pull back, are you pulling back too much. It's hard to see what you should be doing and what you shouldn't.

How did the conversation with the DV hotline go?

[Ozzie101]

The DV call was actually about 3 years ago — when I hit a real low point (and his abusive behaviors were frequent and intense). The call led me to seek out and start seeing my current T. The conversation (and advice and support I found here) finally gave me some of my clarity and confidence back.

I agree, some things get so muddled. I feel like job stress is his to handle. Yes, his job impacts me, but I can’t handle those problems for him. Stress with his son — there are things I can do to help but a lot of it is, frankly, not my problem.

As for my parents, he has moved on from thinking they could have saved his previous job. He fixates now on the fact that they still associate with people involved.
To me, though:
1) We don’t really know, ultimately, why he was fired (likely a combination of reasons) or to what extent my dad’s friend’s wife was involved in the decision.
2) I don’t feel it’s our right to tell my parents who they should be friends with, or even question it, really. My dad and his friend have been friends for decades. There’s a full group involved. It’s his closest friend group and, after both his brothers died before they should have, these friends are his “brothers.”
3) I can understand that H feels hurt. But I know my parents and know they would never intentionally hurt him or anyone. They’re kind, decent people.
4) I suspect (my T agrees) that my parents’ friendship is his magical thing. The one thing that if “taken care of” would fix the hurt. But the root is, most likely, deeper. Abandonment. Rejection. I truly don’t believe there’s anything they could say or do that would make him feel better. As I’ve learned, even if he gets the magical thing, he moves on to something else. It’s never good enough.
5) My parents and other family are frequently the target of his anger or frustrations. Alienation attempt, perhaps. And he admits himself that he’s jealous of the bond I have with them.

So, a lot going on.

He started seeing a new therapist who he says told him I was invalidating and was not correctly supporting him and that my family was being very cruel by continuing their friendship and, at the least, owe him and explanation. He hasn’t been to see her in over a month but that gave more juice to his resentment.

[Ozzie101]

I think a big part of it is that even if he doesn’t expect me to do (or be able to do) anything about it, when he gets upset or stressed, he finds a way to connect it to me or someone with whom I have a connection. He gets stuck in horrible traffic? Well, a former coworker of mine, who writes a road-and-traffic-related column, is somehow to blame and is an idiot. His ophthalmologist’s office has been slow to send his prescription? I’m not being supportive because I didn’t think to ask my dad (a doctor) to step in.

Not that he expects anything from me. He just needs to rant. To dump the negative feelings. On me.

I’m getting better about cutting him off and removing myself, but so far it hasn’t changed his MO.

[Couscous]

He started seeing a new therapist who he says told him I was invalidating and was not correctly supporting him and that my family was being very cruel by continuing their friendship and, at the least, owe him and explanation.

Ah, so he could be playing the game of Courtroom. It’s a common game that therapists get drawn into. But even if that’s not the case, I wouldn’t give a single ounce of credence to anything he reports that his therapist has said. BPDs are masters of spin and they have so much conviction when they tell their tales of woe to sympathetic Rescuers.

[Ozzie101]

Oh, believe me, I know. I stopped listening to the “So-and-so says x” a while back. I’m a lot better now at seeing the manipulation tactics. But now, instead of getting upset I just get angry/frustrated and keep up a neutral response.

[Couscous]

Why do you think that it is still upsetting for you?

[Ozzie101]

I don’t think it’s upsetting (anymore — it used to be). Now it’s more like irritation that he’s still trying to use that as a manipulation tactic (it doesn’t work).

[Cat Familiar]

Can you imagine yourself saying, “I don’t give a f* what they think”?

[Ozzie101]

Oh, I’ve said it. He just continued on, after saying “well, you should.”

[Cat Familiar]

How about saying, “I’m not interested in discussing this further.” How would he respond?

[Ozzie101]

One of two things happens. He either launches into how unimportant he is to me and how I put everything above him or he refuses to accept it — and I remove myself.

[I Am Redeemed]

So, you have strategies to remove yourself from conversations that are at best unproductive.

It seems, though, that the need in this relationship to continuously enforce these boundaries is wearing you down and generating frustration/irritation in you.

Is that accurate?

It's possible his use of "so and so said z and x" is to justify his own reasoning to himself and to get you to meet his needs because he feels justified in needing emotional caretaking. He has ineffective and dysfunctional ways of going about getting these needs met and the reasons for that are likely a tangle of issues that stem from past trauma, FOO, etc. Still, it doesn't make it any less straining on the relationship between you two. It's difficult to feel intimate and close to someone who repeatedly tries to make you feel that it's your job or responsibility or moral duty to fix everything that causes them emotional distress. You can't fix his core wounds of rejection and abandonment. He probably can't see that and doesn't know that his immediate negative feelings stem from those core wounds, and he continues to try in a dysfunctional way to get you to do the things he thinks will prove you love him the way he wants to be loved.

What is your gut instinct about how couples therapy would go with him? do you think he would be receptive to constructive or gentle feedback about his expectations of you and how he goes about trying to get his needs met in the relationship?

[Couscous]

It really sounds like you are doing just about everything you can. If you haven’t looked into nondefensive communication that could be an additional strategy to try.

But the thing is, if he didn’t accuse you of not caring about him then he wouldn’t have BPD. It’s possible that you may have an Approval Seeking Schema and maybe there are some feelings of shame too that are being triggered by his accusations of your not caring about his needs. Hopefully your therapist can help you with this so that it will be easier for you to just let this stuff just roll off your back and not get under your skin, or if you’re like me, feel like you’re being stabbed in the heart with a knife, LOL.

[Ozzie101]

You’re both very accurate. Couscous, I definitely feel a need for approval and have strong caretaking instincts. It is something my T and we are making progress.

And Redeemed, that’s very accurate. I’m definitely feeling worn out and irritated with the frequency and repetitive nature of the boundary enforcement. His current job is improving but it seems every annoyance brings rants from him, usually way out of proportion to the incident.

Your analysis is very much what my T has said and it makes a lot of sense. His parents were very big on appearances and H worries a lot about what other people think. He believes people pay a lot of attention to him and think a lot about him. So, it makes sense that he would also try to use the same thinking to justify his feelings.

Honestly, I think his receptiveness would depend a lot on his mood. Most likely is that he would feel attacked and lectured. He has shown willingness to accept responsibility and make changes, but only when he’s feeling secure or scared (like when I left for several days). When we have discussions, he seems open to it. It’s when he gets upset or feels stressed that he reverts to his familiar pattern.

[Cat Familiar]

That   Approval Seeking Schema!

I’m not sure how it came about, but at some point I was just   -ing done with that. It’s been tremendously freeing to not care if people think I’m a total amount a-hole. I know I’m not, at least not intentionally. Everybody  -up. Everybody can be selfish, oblivious, stupid, uncaring. So   what!