Is this BPD or Covert Narcissism

[Leaf56]

I realize I haven't given an update on my situation in a while so I will now. Last week as I reported, there was a massive uptick in dysregulation and seeming manipulation that resulted in my blocking my S25 on the phone. After two days, I took him off block and asked him if he wanted to talk. We did, and it was good. We agreed to talk one week later, which was yesterday. We did, and it was good again. Zero weirdness, zero expectations. Just a nice 1.5-hour chat about random stuff having nothing to do with anything tense between us, or anything bad with him. So let me reiterate as briefly as possible my circumstances:

S25 from birth to 23 was an extremely loving child whose mantra was basically "I love you so much, you're the best mom ever." Then at 23, he went to stay with his dad for a couple weeks, started smoking a ton of weed, and decided to move in with him because he could smoke weed there and couldn't at our house. What followed 3 months after the move were the 9 months of rage at me as was well illustrated in the text I transcribed. Then when that was over, it was back to "I love you so much, you're the best mom ever." Since that 9-month rage episode ended a year ago, he's cycled through various attempts to manipulate me/get his way, all of which I've shut down. Each time I've not done what he's wanted, I've witnessed what I think is an extinction burst, and then he moves on to the next tactic. This has happened several times at this point. This conversation I had with him yesterday felt different because he tried no tactics (which I don't discount could in itself be a tactic) and sounded like a guileless human.

I know I've said above that I'm practically convinced that he's another Ted Bundy in the making, but then I have a conversation with him like that one, and I'm once again swayed the other way. I've made it very clear that I will give him no money, that I will give him no help, and that the only thing I'm offering is to stay open to the possibility of a relationship with him. He says he just wants me in his life, even if he gets nothing from me, and that even if he won the lottery and no longer needed anything from me that I'm his mom, he will love me forever, and he will always want me in his life.

So I'm left wondering what 9 months of the worst kind of awful crazy followed by a year of failed attempts at manipulation really means. Of course, his current state would have to last a really long time before I put any stock in it, but I have to wait and see, right?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Flossy]

"...For me personally, it's worked great. I'm happy and relaxed in between. I think like you said, the most important thing is that *I* control the schedule of contact and whether it happens at all. I think I'll continue to do this as long as it's comfortable for me, and just go from there. If he ever goes back to that absolutely insane stuff from 2020 or is in any way abusive or even overtly hostile toward me, I think I will be done."...


That sounds perfectly thought out, reasonable and sensible to me. Those are the two words I call on to gauge my thought processes - Reasonable & Sensible. As a daughter of an unNPD and having C-PTSD I find that always works well for me.

I think you have hit a sweet spot in your plan for the routine of contact.

The only thing I would like to add if that's okay, is that you do/will suffer a sense of duty towards the woman he is seeing. I believe this is due to the ethics that are part of you. I have the same sense of duty. I dealt with this after finally realising that most humans I meet in my life would not listen to me or believe me if I spent weeks laying out the reasons why I thought they should be careful with a pwBPD, especially one I know well. Basically, I could knock myself out
with proof and examples and they would CHOOSE to go ahead regardless.

I could say that a lot of humans are stupid and stubborn, but I don't really know why they do this, perhaps it is that we all need to learn our life lessons by ourselves in our own way. Even then, the lesson may not be learned.

The woman he is seeing may think of him as her purpose in life and that may last for the next 20 years with her feeling a sense of purpose, loved, appreciated, busy and fulfilled. The statistical chance of him harming her or is very very low simply because she adores him. The fact that this is her foundation in his life means to me that his view of her will not change regardless of whether the relationship deteriorates or not. If it deteriorates, he would likely discard her or ghost her rather than resort to harm. This is my layman's analysis of course. You will know if it fits well into. your processing.

[Leaf56]

Tonight I had a horrible conversation with my son during which I felt like I was losing my mind. But then as I drilled my brain down on it, I think I started more clearly seeing what might really be going on, and I couldn't help but compare the situation to being in a relationship with a controlling partner. He continues to be very angry that I won't let go of the psychotic weird stuff he did like what's in the text of his I posted upthread. He says, "I just want you to forget all of that happened and go back to being like you were before," which I guess was basically taking care of him. So two things. First, if I were his romantic partner, I get the feeling that this is what he'd be saying after he hit me. Second, the anger seems to be coming from the fact that he can no longer manipulate me. It's like he's saying, "I had a way of controlling you that worked perfectly for many years and now you're not cooperating so I will display frustration and anger in the hopes of getting things back to the way they were." I started looking around at some info about people who operate this way and I found this: "Some people treat others as a means to an end and use manipulation to control them. This is sometimes a symptom of a personality disorder such as narcissistic personality." Then, he said he wants me to talk to this woman he's befriended because he wants her to vouch for him that he's harmless and just so sad that we're not on better terms. Then I read that manipulators commonly do this—recruit outsiders to sway a person that they'll behave better now. I almost want to post about this on the romantic board to ask what folks there think about this because I feel like they might have more insight into this behavior. I also wonder if anybody has seen anything like this between their husbands/boyfriends and their mothers.

[Flossy]

Hi Leaf,
After reading this post, more and more I think he has Narcissistic Personality Disorder on the end of the spectrum that is Psychopath. Eg: OJ Simpson.

A true BPD does not attach to their mother as fanatically as he has attached to you. He seems to have a deep need to control how you think about him.
That is not typical of BPD. They quickly give up as soon as someone becomes difficult or sees through them and find someone else to beguile.

Extreme end Narcissists will not give up when you become difficult or see through them. They will not stop trying to convince you that you are wrong and therefore bad, others that you are wrong and bad or destroy you when their plots fail, or their world believes in you rather than them.

Please take care. I am worried. Don't meet the woman he is seeing. He is charming you in. Use an excuse. Dont tell him the truth. Not ever.

There is a guy on Youtube named Richard Gannon who talks about Narcs. I cant watch him anymore as his style of speech irritates me but he is knowledgeable. You may find others who have a better style. I would start looking for info on how to get out of the line of fire of a malignant narcissist.

[Leaf56]

Do you think it's possible to be both? And of course I've thought about it. He demonstrates no classic outward manifestations of narcissism in his affect. I suppose it's possible to be a closet narcissist, but the trademark of a narcissist is that it's pretty hard to miss. Everyone knows when they're in the presence of a narcissist, right? My son is not charming at all, has zero ability for "smooth talk," and has almost no detectable personality. He's also not remotely boorish or loud or attention seeking and never has been, in fact he's the opposite. If anything he actively tries to deflect all attention. Most people wouldn't even know he was there. His affect is that of a very shy, harmless, and gentle prepubescent boy. He's good-looking but has never been able to acknowledge it, and sees himself as highly unattractive. Watch that video of the police interacting with Brian Laundrie. That's the closest to a video description of my son's mode of behaving out in the world, except Brian Laundrie comes across as more assertive than my son. My son basically does not leave his dad's house and will not work. He could never have put together a cross-country trip with his girlfriend—he's never even been able to motivate himself to get a driver's license or travel anywhere at all. That said, during the Laundrie crazy days, many people who watched that video commented that he showed all the signs of classic narcissism, which confused me. At the time I thought that they made those comments under prejudice because they knew he killed his girlfriend so they were looking for it. Objectively, I saw a shy, compliant young man. They saw a monster. Is that because they already knew he was a murderer or is that because it was obvious he was a narcissist? He didn't act like any narcissist I've ever dealt with, but maybe it's a much more stealthy personality disorder than I realize. I guess when I think about Woody Allen, I can see the narcissistic traits coupled with the self-deprecation. But it's much easier to see it in someone like Allen, a hugely successful film director (or any even somewhat successful anybody), than it is in my son, who does nothing. But maybe someone like Allen and my son CAN only activate if they're doing something that has high narcissistic reward, and without that success, Allen would have stayed in his mother's house forever. Maybe that's why my son can't move on from his chosen profession because it offers a high narcissistic reward, and he says he will do it or nothing, but he'd much prefer to be taken care of and never have to work again. He wants nothing more than to be the house-husband of a beautiful successful woman, who he says he would shower with attention and provide with support and companionship. He could easily devote himself to such a person and erase himself completely. Is that narcissistic? It doesn't feel like it.

On the other hand, he meets every one of the BPD criteria in spades. He has constant lifelong emotional instability, 100% of the time. He has had constant suicidal ideation since he was 15. His constant inner monologue is about how much he loathes himself, and he says it outwardly, to me at least, all the time. He has chronic feelings of emptiness, makes constant efforts to avoid abandonment, has horrible identity disturbance since very young, engages in frequent impulsive sexual behavior and drugs, displays inappropriate intense anger on a daily basis, constantly swings between idealization and demonization of just about every person in his life and does so within minutes, has constant transient stress-related paranoid ideation and dissociative symptoms.

I currently plan to talk to the woman on the phone tonight. I might change my mind.

Also, I did a year or two of schema therapy in the 90s with one of the founding fellows of the Academy of Cognitive Therapy who trained directly under Jeffrey Young, the founder of schema therapy. I've reached out to him to see if he would talk to me about this situation. I hope I hear back.

[Leaf56]

OMG, Flossy. I've now watched a couple of Richard Grannon videos, and this one I'm linking to quite possibly hits on what's going on. Grannon even calls covert narcissism (or "shy" narcissism) "borderline narcissism" and says that the traits overlap so much it's hard to tell which it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WVLZXLyO-M

All the reading I've ever done on narcissism is about what he refers to as overt narcissism, the easily identifiable kind that everybody knows, and he discusses the nomenclature at length here. But it was around minute 21:00 of this video, where he describes how these folks have to constantly tell you how sad they are and "flop around in front of you with their pockets turned out saying 'oh, I've got no money, if only I knew a person who had some money they could give me' but not actually asking" that struck home with me. Yes, I'm now going to have to spend a whole lotta time researching this further. I bet Skip has some great stuff in the archives.

[Leaf56]

Wow, and right after that he discusses how they have extreme stubbornness and how that's a passive aggressive way for them to get you to do what they want—my son has been doing that since he was born. I could tell you stories from kindergarten that might amaze you. And he named so many other traits, 20 in all, like complete victim mentality, projecting their own insecurities and defects onto you. The most disturbing one is that they have a propensity to incest (ewww). Fake empathic and caring personality. "The mask slips and you see rage that other people are getting what they want and they aren't, extreme jealousy, etc. but the fury doesn't match the sweet persona so it gets repressed. Propensity toward depression (unlike the overt narcissist) like a sulking child and that when provoked or triggered they'll go back to a 3-year-old mentality, overblown and over-dramatic because if you're not assertive and trying to do manipulation shyly it doesn't work. They feel no one understands them, everyone else is an idiot. I'm amazing but nobody can see it because the world isn't ready for my genius yet. Lying is another trait. Because of the shyness, they don't have the emotional muscle to be classic narcissists so they have to use more passive tactics like stubbornness, never taking no for an answer, and lying. It's a shame-based disorder. Shame for them is so overwhelming that it's almost impossible for them to admit they're wrong because the emotion will destroy them if they open the door to it. The whole personality is a lie to cover a hidden secret shameful something." I've put it in quotes because much of it is direct from the video.

[Leaf56]

The concept of "covert" or "vulnerable" narcissism was recently brought to my attention through a video I watched at the suggestion of a fellow poster on the "child with" board. It was made by a man named Richard Grannon, a life coach of some sort:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LRoCmWWsG4

I had only previously ever known about overt narcissism, and I know for sure that the traits displayed by overt narcissists are not at all consistent with my son's outward behavior at all. But every single one of the 20 traits listed in this video about covert narcissism do describe my son. Likewise, my son has every trait in the DSM describing BPD in spades. In this video, Richard Grannon says that the two have a lot of overlap. So my questions are: Are these different disorders? Do most people here confuse these things anyway, and do they maybe do that because they are, in fact, the same? Can you direct me to other places on this board where this topic has already been discussed? And could someone please point me to any good resources about this topic as it pertains to adult children? Thanks!

[jones54]

The range of "Personality Disorders" commonly overlap. Psychiatry is an inexact science.
My daughter was "picked up" by order of the court a little over a week ago. She spent the day in the ER being evaluated by social workers, the ER doctor and even a psychiatrist. With all my concerns as to what had happened (attacking me, trying to break into her mother's house, threats of harming me, my fiance, her mother and threatening to use heroin) they released her.  As they say "another one falls thru the cracks".
Since that time she has continued to email me with complaints and in essence wanting me to take care of her "what any good parent would do!"
She hit a deer with her car (driving her alcoholic friend home from the bar...so she was being a "good person"). She wants me to pay her $500 deductible. I have decided to go no contact and not respond, after all I have a PPO on her so she is legally not even supposed to be contacting me. At this point I see no other way. She again has put herself in this position. No job and homeless along with relapsing.
Leaf, you asked if the addiction came before or after the BPD. They are two separate entities. Many BPDs have addiction issues per the DSM-IV. But not all addicts have BPD. Being co-diagnosed makes getting better all the more difficult. Most BPDs with addiction issues use illicit and legal drugs to "self medicate" due to their unstable feelings.  In my professional opinion you have to be predisposed to have addiction (chemical) issues. These people have a different set up in their brains. There is a large genetic component to it but not in the Darwinian sense.
I have always wondered if we had stopped supporting her years ago if anything would have gotten better. I am not sure. Just as in addiction, until the person wants life better nothing will change. They have to hit "rock bottom" and decide to get sober. I feel it probably is the same with her mental health. She has been to multiple therapists throughout her life. She even did DBT many years ago that we enrolled her in. Unfortunately she told me years later "Dad, I was high the whole time when you put me in DBT". If any of us want life better, it is up to us to make a change. We all have to be able to look in the mirror and say there is something wrong and I need to make a change. The problem with BPD is the person does not see there is anything wrong with them and it is everyone else who has a problem. Just as when an alcoholic denies they have a problem and stays in the addiction. In Alanon you learn that you cannot "cure" the person. Therefore what you need to do more than anything is take care of yourself. I have decided this is my life now. I no longer want to live in the chaos of my daughter's life. Twenty years is long enough.

[Leaf56]

Good for you, jones! I just told my son yesterday (after his continued pleading with me to help him with x, y, z) that sooner or later he's going to face a choice: that he'll either get sick of himself as he is and want to change or he'll kill himself. I told him it's up to him and that no one can do it for him and any help I give him will only prolong the situation. He, of course, immediately retorted, "If I could just get my hands on a gun I'd kill myself today." I replied, "So be it." It was only later that I realized that indeed there is a third option—for him to remain in this purgatory for the rest of a long life. But like you, I am not going to participate. I'm only 2 years in so I'm giving myself a little leeway.

[ILMBPDC]

Hi Leaf56
I am not an expert, all I can tell you is what I have read and what I know from experience (BPD Daughter & BPD ex with a few NPD traits and a mother whom I am almost certain is a covert narcissist)

I have read that it is not at all uncommon for people with BPD to also have some NPD comorbidity (40% according to Psychology Today). I have also heard people say that people with BPD are failed narcissists, probably because of the  symptom overlap.

My covert narcissist mom expects the world to revolve around her and is very judgmental about anyone who doesn't think the same way she does (basically believing her opinions to be superior). She internalizes any criticism and is very passive aggressive. She is envious of people and feels like she "deserves" things they have - as an example, I got a promotion and was excited about it and made the mistake of telling my mom how much money I was making. She said "No one's ever paid me $xxx" in a hurt voice, like it should have just been handed to her on a silver platter. This type of statement has been repeated many times over my life time to me, my sisters and probably anyone else who has shared stuff with her that she envies. These are all pretty common in covert NPD from my understanding.

My BPD daughter is nothing like that, she doesn't consider herself superior to anyone in the least and doesn't feel entitled. She does have a 0-60 emotional spirals sometimes and when that happens she feels bad about how she treats people which exacerbates the spiral and makes her feel worthless. She feels like she doesn't know who she is, deep down and has tried on different personalities over the years.

Funny story - when my daughter was diagnosed professionally with BPD after extensive testing, my mother (who has an art degree mind you) not only disagreed with the diagnosis but diagnosed my daughter as "histrionic" because apparently she knows more than a trained psychologist and mental health testing.

I won't go into my ex since he doesn't really add anything to my observations.

Anyway, I don't know if this helps at all but I don't believe BPD and covert NPD are the same thing at all.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Flossy]

OMG, Flossy. I've now watched a couple of Richard Grannon videos, and this one I'm linking to quite possibly hits on what's going on. Grannon even calls covert narcissism (or "shy" narcissism) "borderline narcissism" and says that the traits overlap so much it's hard to tell which it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WVLZXLyO-M

All the reading I've ever done on narcissism is about what he refers to as overt narcissism, the easily identifiable kind that everybody knows, and he discusses the nomenclature at length here. But it was around minute 21:00 of this video, where he describes how these folks have to constantly tell you how sad they are and "flop around in front of you with their pockets turned out saying 'oh, I've got no money, if only I knew a person who had some money they could give me' but not actually asking" that struck home with me. Yes, I'm now going to have to spend a whole lotta time researching this further. I bet Skip has some great stuff in the archives.

I answered your first post before I read the others. Yes yes yes. I will check out the vid after I write all of my replies. I have a gut feeling the diagnosis ought to be Covert NPD + BPD + Asperger's. Then again...more refining could be needed because the rages could be a part of NPD and the extreme rages could be NPD and also Asperger's meltdowns. That would be why he needs to convince you that that text was not his true self.

If he has Asperger's it's not.

[Flossy]

Wow, and right after that he discusses how they have extreme stubbornness and how that's a passive aggressive way for them to get you to do what they want—my son has been doing that since he was born. I could tell you stories from kindergarten that might amaze you. And he named so many other traits, 20 in all, like complete victim mentality, projecting their own insecurities and defects onto you. The most disturbing one is that they have a propensity to incest (ewww). Fake empathic and caring personality. "The mask slips and you see rage that other people are getting what they want and they aren't, extreme jealousy, etc. but the fury doesn't match the sweet persona so it gets repressed. Propensity toward depression (unlike the overt narcissist) like a sulking child and that when provoked or triggered they'll go back to a 3-year-old mentality, overblown and over-dramatic because if you're not assertive and trying to do manipulation shyly it doesn't work. They feel no one understands them, everyone else is an idiot. I'm amazing but nobody can see it because the world isn't ready for my genius yet. Lying is another trait. Because of the shyness, they don't have the emotional muscle to be classic narcissists so they have to use more passive tactics like stubbornness, never taking no for an answer, and lying. It's a shame-based disorder. Shame for them is so overwhelming that it's almost impossible for them to admit they're wrong because the emotion will destroy them if they open the door to it. The whole personality is a lie to cover a hidden secret shameful something." I've put it in quotes because much of it is direct from the video.

Some Asperger's/ASD people also have a propensity for incest and consider it reasonable and  "ok". Yep eeewww!

Oh my Lordy so much of Covert Narcissism is identical to Asperger's. I spent the past three years trying to diagnose my husband after 30 years of his masking. I swung between Covert Narcissist and Secret A******** but the lightbulb moment was when my General Pratitioner Doctor said to me...Your husband has no self-awareness, I think he has Asperger's. It took six months for him to consider it true and he has spent the last six months educating himself and we have both worked out strategies. The only times he displays Asperger's behaviours that are recognisable are if he has more than two beers or is overtired.

Even so, there are occassions where his thinking process matches with how a Narcissist thinks. Because pwASD do not automatically consider other's needs. It has to be put to them or is done after hours of debate.

Hmmm! Another aspect to consider when trying to pinpoint for an expert to diagnose him is sexuality.  With regard to the possibility of your son having Aspergers and or NPD, sexuality is not normal with Asperger's. It is not a drive. Sexual activity is mostly shallow, unsophisticated and instigated by a visual stimulation rather than a cerebral, hormonal or animalistic stimulation. The Special Interest is the prominent drive. I have heard though of some men with ASD who are into porn, but not into connecting with their partner through intimacy.

[Leaf56]

So to explore the possibility of my son having ASD/Aspergers and how that diagnosis can overlap with covert narcissism, I'll first give some background. He has already had multiple complete psych evals, the most important of which for purposes here were at age 5 (when masking behavior has not yet fully developed) and age 24. At 5, I took him to a prominent pediatric neurologist specializing in developmental behavior pediatrics at a center for the study of child developmental disorders. Over three days, he had a complete neuropsych eval including extensive testing, complete psychological eval including full IQ testing, and complete occupational therapy eval. I asked especially that they evaluate him for Aspergers because I was alert early to his issues and aware that some of them were similar to ASD. Because we live in a state with the highest rate of autism in the country, and specialists here have seen more cases than probably anywhere in the world, ASD diagnosis is very common here, and there were several children in his school who had been diagnosed and who clearly had Aspergers. I knew them well and knew their parents well. At the end of the eval, the result was basically nothing—no diagnosis, no clear problems that they could even detect. On top of this result, there's a prominent ASD expert who's written many books on the subject who lives in our town and has been running social groups for ASD kids for 20 years. I knew him socially, and he'd spent time with my son in social situations like birthday parties, and I asked him what he thought—he was clear that my son, at the ages of 3-7 when he had the opportunity to observe him, did not have Asperger's. It was him who suggested the neuropsych eval to see if something else might be going on based on the anecdotal evidence I'd given him. Also, anecdotally, every time I tried to set him up with an Aspie kid for a playdate it ended with the kid wandering off and leaving my son to entertain the parents. He has no connection with Aspie kids or adults. He had no language delay, he never stimmed, he never rocked, he never had any trouble looking into people's eyes from birth, I never had any trouble understanding his needs or wants. On the other hand, he was very shy and very sensitive to noise, itchy clothes, food textures, and sticky fingers, had explosive prolonged reactions to not getting his way and had a hard time returning to baseline, was manipulative, stubborn, lived in a fantasy world. As he got to be about 9 or 10, he stopped reacting strongly and learned to regulate. He saw a child psychologist weekly as well as a social worker in the school. His teachers were wonderful and accommodating, and he had three best male friends who all shared similar interests—like hiking, fishing, playing board and video games, and participating in Boy Scouts—and they became a group that is still intact today. The other young men are all completely neurotypical and pursuing their dreams.

Fast forward to the psych eval he had this past January. He sat for 10 hours over two days, again with express direction by me to look for ASD and anything leaning toward anti-social personality disorder that could explain the content of the texts. At the end, I had the opportunity to speak to the evaluator, a highly trained psychologist with a subspecialty in forensic psychology, who has done hundreds of these evals, chosen by the top psychiatrist I had employed to figure out what was going on with my son. The result was basically nothing. No to ASD, yes to some ASD traits, but nothing that could rise to the level of a diagnosis. So if he was not on the spectrum at 5 and is not now, I have to accept that he's not and move on. Would I like to believe it's ASD? Yes! Could I easily find someone to diagnose him with ASD? I'm sure! Would that help him? No, I don't think so.

To answer your question about his sexuality, he has an overwhelming sexual drive and says it's the only reason for living. If he could, he says he would be in a state of constant cuddling and having sex. He says he likes nothing more than to be in the cocoon stage of a relationship where this is all they do. He loves and craves total intimacy and the total attention of a beautiful woman and wants to be completely seen and adored for who he is (or thinks he is). He wants to shower her with attention to the point of suffocation, and when she ends it, she immediately becomes the worst person who ever lived and he entertains fantasies of killing her. If he ends it or if it's a mutual thing, the woman stays on the good list, and he starts fantasizing about getting back together.

One thing you said in response to my suggesting that perhaps he might not have NPD because he'd happily become a househusband and be taken care of for life was that you flipped it and realized that actually it might prove it even more "due to the viewpoint of him thinking himself so special that he deserves such a life." The bell rang very loudly when I read that. Of course! OF COURSE!

I spoke to the current woman in his life, the one who doesn't count because she's neither beautiful nor interesting to him, for two hours. It's possible that the purpose of the call (brainstorm of my son's I suppose) was to use her to convince me that he's harmless. I listened to her for a couple minutes to assess that that was what it was probably about, then I spent the next two hours laying out the reality to her (I stopped short of telling her all the bad stuff he's said about her because I didn't want her to have to live with that crap for life, but I alluded to it in the hopes she'd get the gist) and encouraged her to get away from him. I couldn't live with myself if I hadn't. If she stays, it's on her. (But oh shoot, as I reread what I just typed I realized that it's possible that he used me to get rid of her. I'm such a sucker.)

[Couscous]

I also don’t think BPD and covert/vulnerable narcissism are the same. My brother’s ex was dxBPD and she was very different from my BPD/vulnerable narcissist brother and borderline waif/queen mother.

[Flossy]

LEAF
Have you had the chance to talk to the Fellow who helped found The Academy of Cognitive Therapy yet?

I hope you can get his email address so that you can copy and paste your descriptions of behaviours and events so that he can peruse them at his leisure. Sometimes, it takes days of examination and analysis to absorb the total picture and I think that might be helpful if he will do that to help you.

Your sons' presentation is so complex, I think it needs all of your observations presented to the Cognitive Therapy guy.

BTW There was a show on Netflix called Diagnosis. It involved someone setting up a FB page to call for the world to give an opinion on possible diagnosis of medical issues. I think it's a brilliant idea as it invited professionals and lay people to send in their ideas and opinions based on trying to find an answer and involved a great deal of lateral thinking. I so wish there was one that could be used. I am sure there is, but I haven't found it yet. I find the present medical system very limiting for diagnosis that do not fit perfectly in the "box".

I just had a thought. Perhaps find a contact for Richard Gannon and send in your bullet point observations. Also there is a guy named Dr Tony Attwood here in Australia who may be able to give an opinion on whether your son could fit within a diagnosis of Asperger's.

I will find his address for you. Here is his website. He is actually located in the city that I live in. Brisbane. How is that for co-inkydink ?Maybe write up your observations document and send me a copy If you get no response by email? I can forward it by local post.

https://tonyattwood.com.au

On his website under "Resources and Research" There is a sub category called "Forms and Questionaires". Within that is a category called
"Clinicians  interview questions to aid Diagnosis of ASD using DSM-5 Criteria". It is something that you would like to read I am sure and maybe even fill out.

https://tonyattwood.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/DSM-5-ASD-Clinicians-interview-questions.docx

I hope your Festive Season has some peace and joy and the Bright New Year brings hope. I had a great day today Christmas food shopping, watching a great movie and eating Saladas with butter and garden tomatoes for my dinner. How much of a rebel am I?
Best wishes.

[Leaf56]

ILMBPDC,
You said, "I have also heard people say that people with BPD are failed narcissists," and while I realize you don't agree with that statement, I can't help but think that it could be very accurate. I'll explore the idea more back on my "not helping an adult child thread."

[Leaf56]

Flossy, if I were still a parenting editor, I could easily reach out to anyone I wanted about my son's issues. I used to do that when I was, but it was rarely very illuminating. I've written up my son's life several times for those who would be evaluating him and included all the previous evaluations, and frankly I don't think anyone has ever bothered to look at it. Sadly, most people who do this kind of work for money don't seem to be particularly interested in figuring out complex cases or in putting the time in that's required to do so. And most celebrity parenting or self-help experts are even less interested. I've dealt with many of them during my career, and they've always left me feeling underwhelmed and sad as they are almost always narcissists who are more interested in self-promotion than in helping people. My father and grandfather were both physicians for whom diagnosis was an art form and an investigative journey. I'm not sure there are many left of that type.

So back to the idea that my son is either a covert narcissist and that that diagnosis basically covers BPD anyway, or that he's co-morbid CNPD and BPD and that those are two different things. Based on the evidence that I've received from the many psychiatrists and psychologists who've evaluated my son and said he is not on the autistic spectrum, I'm going to put that idea aside for now, however I don't discount the possibility (and frankly I'm starting to lean toward the possibility) that all of these diagnoses are just slight variations of the interplay in the brain that causes whatever symptoms to rise to the surface more than others, thus resulting in either BPD, CNPD, ASPD, or ASD diagnosis, but that they are all just slight twists away from each other. So as we were saying before, what if this starts at ASPD or psychopathy, then ratchets down to NPD, then down to CNPD, then to BPD. I feel like ASD should fit somewhere in there too—like it's NPD but missing a protein that leads to its symptoms and that that's why high-functioning people on the autistic spectrum have such crossover in symptoms with NPD and BPD. Or what if the extreme high-functioning end of the autism spectrum, the former Asperger's diagnosis, is really not related to autism at all? It's possible. There's no test. My son, after all, has absolutely nothing in common with low-functioning autistics who are non-verbal and unable to ever be out of constant care. I'm not even sure if diagnosis amongst all these things even matters anymore, and I'm starting to think that diagnosis just gets in the way, unless you need services from your school or disability or for insurance to cover expenses.

ILMBPDC wrote this on the thread I started in the "Library: Psychology Questions and Answers" section of this site where I ask about the comparison of Covert Narcissism and BPD: "I have also heard people say that people with BPD are failed narcissists." That statement rings incredibly true for my son and sets off an analysis in my brain that makes me conclude that CNPD and BPD could very possibly be the same thing. I'm not saying they are. I'm saying it's possible and that I'd like to explore the idea.

So, just to be rudimentary, if the proclivity of a person to develop either CNPD or NPD boils down to what their basic temperament is at birth, with those with CNPD being shy and unassertive and those with NPD being outgoing, assertive, and attention-seeking, you can see how both those types would then go on to develop into adulthood. They both think they're special, they both think they're entitled, but the pwNPD is often successful at attaining his narcissistic supply and the pwCNPD is not. So the pwCNPD is left in the "what about me" phase for life, and thus starts developing the BPD behaviors in order to obtain what they see as rightfully theirs. I feel like the first objection to this idea will be "but my child hates herself and has no sense of self" therefore she can't be narcissistic. But what if she can be both? Both hate herself and think deep down that she's more deserving and special? My son is equally both, and the fact that his narcissism is covert, makes the depression much worse and the suicidal ideation 100% constant. So what if expressed BPD symptoms are just the outward manifestation or result of the internal covert narcissism?

Thinking about it kind of makes my head spin, and in the interest of not writing another 3,000 or more words, I feel like I should stop.

[Flossy]

It made my head spin as well and I could not allow myself to try to absorb it. It would have triggered my PTSD symptoms.

The one reason I come back to considering Asperger's is his desire to convince you that he is not a bad person, after the text he sent.

I believe it is possible that text and others were ASD meltdowns. I live with this with my husband. Frustration and fatigue can lead to inappropriate verbalisation that appears to show a propensity for violence. Yet, violence is not in the nature at all.

It presents as a child would "try out" or "practise" how to react to frustration, but lacking the boundary switch, they just blurt it all out. As I said, my husband totally lost his s### one day over me letting go of one book. Yet he is kind, sweet and gentle. He now knows that the way he reacted was not a normal (neurotypical) response to the upset and frustration he felt.

I see it as possible that your son had a ASD meltdown due to either fatigue or frustration and he is truly not a psychopathic person capable of murder. He has said he is, but that could come from ASD also.

I am only pondering with this for your benefit. I hope you find some benefit from it as I need to take care of what I spend my limited energy on.
 If my ideas are negated, I have nothing more to offer.  I had hoped you would consider Tony Attwood. You may in the future when/if in a different frame of mind.

If you re-read the first sentence in the response to my post, it reads as dismissive and inconsiderate to my attempt to be of help. It could be read as an ASD style of communicating.

Maybe a word or two added, when negating would provide encouragement for people who did bother to look at it.

I totally agree with the lack in medical professionals. Analytical minds with time spent on the subject are the main hope.

[adoptivemama]

Hi adoptivemama, thanks for contributing to my thread. I went back and read your old posts from 4 years ago and was struck by the fact that you said your daughter had experienced psychosis and that you also said this: "My daughter had been extremely jealous for years...and she has been inventing memories of me saying terrible things about her more and more, but not until this summer did she display ongoing rage--almost a whole new personality, and suicidal ideation."

This description reminded me of my son, who also suddenly displayed rage and a whole new personality complete with psychotic symptoms 2 years ago at age 23 (he'd been suicidal for 8 years already though). The rage and psychotic symptoms lasted for about a year and have since calmed down significantly, but I remain wary, especially because he's tried to purchase a gun in the past, and, let's face it, there's a much larger chance of a young man completing an act of murderous violence than a young woman. I also noted you said this: "I am educated enough to forgive my daughter for the rage and hatred that I experience from her." I've been on the fence about this. I immediately forgave him the first time it happened, no strings attached, but then when it persisted for so long with threats of killing others and possibly me I started to waver. I wonder how you feel about your stance now?

Also, I won't address your post about your daughter being MIA on your own thread, but I will here: I think you should let it go and do nothing.

Thanks so much, Leaf. Got busy for Christmas! Yeah, I'm much more detached these days. I do forgive her, but I'm so much less emotionally invested that the word "forgiveness" means very little. We barely have a relationship. She calls when she is mad about things and vents at me when I'm in the mood to answer the phone--about half of the time, once a month or so. That's not a relationship. Her first episode of psychotic behavior was so scary--plus she lived with us then. I seriously thought she might slit our throats in the night. But then she popped out of it with the help of the hospital's DBT program. She was herself again--a very victimized and depressive self, but back to her way of functioning pretty well. A year later she moved out and did ok on her own,  to our great relief. We hadn't even seen her for the first year of COVID. I was super proud of myself that I was able to take her out for a weekend for her birthday last year when she turned 23. She was negative the whole time but she did seem to feel loved, and I felt the assurance that I was still a devoted mom in spite of the sickness of it all. I guess I still do want to connect with her and show her some love when there are openings to do so-- I imagine having the energy to do this in those times when there is not any blame/anger/drama for six months or so. I avoid the drama by just letting her live her own life for the most part. We are learning to live without her, and this Christmas was a new chapter of holidays without her. I'm proud of myself for letting us enjoy it!

[Leaf56]

Wow, adoptivemama, you've certainly come a long way.

I hear this thought of yours very clearly: "I'm so much less emotionally invested that the word 'forgiveness' means very little."

My son keeps asking me to forget the psychotic stuff, but so far, I can forgive but not forget because, like you said, forgiveness in this situation no longer seems to hold meaning. I'm just in a constant state of "wary."

You said: "Her first episode of psychotic behavior was so scary--plus she lived with us then. I seriously thought she might slit our throats in the night."

This is exactly what I was afraid of and why I was so happy he was not living with us when it happened. I just can't shake the idea that he could slip back into this mode at any minute, though. Do you feel like your daughter's foray into psychosis could come and go?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Skip]

While reading this I am reminded of the disclaimer that the DSM is not a cookbook. It really takes a qualified professional to to tease out these fine distinctions and in many cases the professional may, in fact, not see any value in doing so.

The most utility we can get from a "diagnosis" is that it sheds some light on what treatments are most effective, and what type of support is the most constructive support for someone.

When we encounter high conflict or destructive relationship behaviors it is important for us to know that the problems can be caused by a broad range of things that look a lot a like:

• immaturity,
• short term mental illness (e.g., depression)
• substance induced illness (e.g., alcoholism),
• an anxiety disorder (e.g., PTSD)
• a personality disorder (e.g., BPD, NPD, 8 others),
• a neurodevelopmental disorder (e.g., ADHD, Aspergers), or
• any combination of the above (i.e., co-morbidity).

 
How often is it "any combination of the above?"   In an NIH study of 34,653 people*, of those that had clinical BPD,

    74% had another personalty disorder,
    75% also had a mood disorder, and
    74% also had an anxiety disorder.

How confident are you that it is a personalty disorder, in general? I'm not asking about a specific type [e.g., BPD, NPD] or a theoretical subtype [e.g., Vulnerable narcissist], just in general?

It sounds like you have ruled out neurodevelopmental disorder. Are you pretty sure it is not bipolar disorder or substance abuse? Parental alienation?

That is where I would start.  

If you feel it's a personality disorder, I would not worry too much if it is BPD or "covert narcissism". I'd look at the tools that work with him and what is most effective with him. There is a far far greater bed of knowledge on how to work with a BPD adult child.  

Skip

PS: I know your are leery of "a life coach of some sort", and I encourage that. Rick Gannon, who is a psychology enthusiast and amateur creator of psychology theory, is not a recommended resource - especially for parents. This is not to say that everything that he says is wrong, not interesting, or unhelpful. It to say that he mixes what he has read (some of which he or  understands and some not), with his own ideas, and presents it all as state-of-the-art. And it is to say that his primary audience is helping spurned relationship partners looking to justify a breakup. It's a bit like watching a biased news channel. It can feel right, and it's hard to pick out the good from the bad. Never a good characteristic for a reference source.

[Elizabeth22]

That is some very interesting information.
Thank you, Skip. 

[Elizabeth22]

I had to come back to this because I realized last night it reminds me of something, a movie called Savage Grace, based on a true story.