Can others share how they launched the adult kids out of family homes.

[losttrust]

Can others share how they launched the adult kids out of family homes.  I’m finding that tricky as friends no longer interested. And other family members duck his calls   Can other share how they got the BPD out.  Residential wasn’t successful for me.
Thx much

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Flossy]

Can others share how they launched the adult kids out of family homes.  I’m finding that tricky as friends no longer interested. And other family members duck his calls   Can other share how they got the BPD out.  Residential wasn’t successful for me.
Thx much

I have not had personal experience with this, as my adult daughter is now 51and has been married for years. When she was at home, she left often with any male who showed interest in looking after her.

 I do have personal experience with how to "get rid off" a newly made female friend, as soon as I realise they are unBPD. Tell them the truth. Not in a mean way. Just tell the truth calmly and quietly without any intense eye contact or prolonged silence or raised voice.

It has to be an almost clinical observation. Not too personal and not said in a way that invites debate. A statement, not an open-ended question.

For example,  -"That is a good example of delusional thinking".
- "Your thought processes seem immature for your physical age".
- "I dont understand why you are asking for attention for what is a normal life as an adult"

Even one I love that African American I have heard African American kids say their mums use a lot.
- "What is wrong with you?"

Something that is not cruel, but an honest clinical observation. With no extreme facial expression or lingering gaze if said in person. Turn away immediately after saying it.

I find if I can manage to say this kind of thing, even if in a text if necessary, they immediately demonise me and remove themselves from my life.

It usually takes only one statement to remove a newly introduced 'friend" when their BPD is exposed, after they let their guard down with me.

I imagine it would take more than once with an adult child living with you, especially because they need your residence, but it's worth a try.

One other way is to analyse how you can find a way that they no longer NEED you. I have found that BPD's misconstrue the difference between LOVE and NEED. If they no longer need you and you piss them off, they no longer love you and will find someone else to attach to. You will be discarded.

If you want to see them again you will need to stand in front of them and say hello, because once you are out of their sight and they no longer need you they will not contact you. If they do contact you its because there is something they need. That's it.

It sounds as though I am simplifying things and I am sure some would find my thoughts offensive, especially those with BPD. But, I'm tired and have no patience any more for softening my thoughts on strategies.

Give it a try. It might be worth it. See what the reaction is.

If that doesn't work, consider selling your house and buying a townhouse or a house with not enough rooms to accomodate them. When you look at it, you may be at a life stage where downsizing would be great for your needs. We recently sold our house and bought a Villa and I loove it. No more weekends spent endlessly maintaining a garden that we lovingly grew for years. Instead we watch Netflix and go to Cafes for breakfast with the dogs. Housework takes an hour instead of hours. It's heaven.

[M-T]

Hi folks,

My BPD daughter is 20yo and she willingly moved to her own apartment last year. Probably needless to say for this audience, it was a mess of a year and - having mistakingly co-signed with her on the lease - we paid a lot of money to keep her there, especially because she has been unable to hold a job. A lot of "loans" that we'd eventually forgive (but which she believes she paid us), extremely challenging and contentious conversations, etc. Late rent and a huge damage deposit for this last month.

She was in a car accident back in April and helping her through that process (physically, financially, and mentally) was extremely stressful. A big push and pull between "I'm an adult I can take care of this" and "I can't do anything because the world is against me and I'm so depressed." So I helped her through everything in dealing with insurance, medical, even when she was mean, dramatic, helpless, etc. She was offered a pain & suffering settlement after a few months. We had recently been somewhat estranged because she said a lot of hurtful things to me, then cut me off, then brought me back in when she needed help, then told me she no longer wanted to communicate with me about money, that she has it "all under control," yelled at me. Then she needed help and so apologized for being mean. At this time, I finally stood up for myself. Basically said - "you've said a lot of hurtful things to me and given me the impression that my efforts have never been good enough and continue not to be. I won't forget the things you've said to me, and I'm going to take a break from trying so hard in this relationship." This was a very scary and big step for me (and comes after months of mourning/acceptance/research of her BPD diagnosis). But it has been so freeing, as much as I still feel such turmoil over it. Anyhow, she was supposed to handle the pain & suffering settlement, which was simply calling the agent to accept and confirming her SS#. I had sent her the email and told her to take care of it since she asked me to step out of her financial business. Over a month later, still no money had come so I finally asked her about it since her rent was way overdue. She didn't realize she was supposed to do anything...So I give it a few more days and finally just call the agent and take care of it. Understand that it was this money alone that was between her and I no longer having a lease together. Once she got the money, she could pay her balance and we could move on from that. And she did pay it, and was grateful I helped take care of it (confusing).

Flashback to when she moved out...The same day she moved to her apartment, we moved to a smaller house. This was not necessarily purposeful, but has certainly been helpful for me in setting boundaries. We simply don't have space for her. At first, when she would come around, I would have my two boys share a room and let her have her own space. She commonly wants to "come home for a few days," which turns into more than a few days and everyone is miserable when she is here. More recently, she gets the couch. I stopped making accommodations for her. Of course, then we suffer because she's just always around, moping and doing nothing to help.

Her last stay, she was hinting at wanting to live with us, even if it was in a tent in the backyard. I just laughed, pretending she was joking but knowing deep down she probably wasn't. Though she had assured me (and got mad at me for asking) that she was going to find a new place all on her own, she clearly only has plans to live with her boyfriend, with whom she has an unstable relationship. I was bracing myself for the question...not really wanting to be honest with her about why we don't want her here.

And yesterday, it didn't officially come but she sent the classic text, "Hey things aren't going well for me, can I come stay for 'a couple days' to figure out my life because staying with my bf is not working. I can even pay you to stay in a tent in the yard or on the couch. Call me as soon as you wake up." And so...I said "no. This is too last minute. We have plans today, the kids are starting school this week. And I'm worried about COVID since you are hanging out with unvaccinated people." It's such a hard thing for me to do. I want to be able to be there for her. I wish she was "normal" and that I could be happy to help her out for a few days, to have her around. It made me so sad all over again, but also relieved to say no. And also just scared and unprepared for what the real conversation should be. Because right now those are certainly all truths. But the overarching truth is - she won't take her meds, she doesn't help around the house when she's here, you can't have a civil conversation with her unless all you do is listen to her and agree with her (and frankly even when you agree she gets intense), can't provide advice without anger - even if she asks for it. So I guess that's the next step for me. I feel like, as a parent, I should be there to listen to her when she has problems but I see many people even setting boundaries around that. I want to help her find a place, but I know I shouldn't. She needs to know the actual truth sometime, because right now these are just temporary reasons. Ultimately, she's not welcome to live here. But she can't know that unless I tell her, and explain why.

Thank you to everyone here that shares their stories. They have helped me so much in feeling okay about saying no, standing up for myself and family, setting boundaries, and being understanding with myself that this is a slow and up-and-down process. It's also helped me see patterns and to have more respect for myself. And I hope my stories can help others, too, as they learn to do the same.

I do think it's good that we're moving in the direction of not providing support and "unconditional love" and I'm both relieved and scared. I feel a great distance growing between us and I'm afraid that I'm just completely pulling away from her and psychologically cutting her off. I don't quite grasp how to be a parent to someone that falls outside of the normal ideas of parent/child relationships. If I can't help her with money, have her over for dinner, feel comfortable around her, listen to her problems and give advice, what can I do?

[Leaf56]

M-T, you said: "If I can't help her with money, have her over for dinner, feel comfortable around her, listen to her problems and give advice, what can I do?"

The answer is nothing. And I'm really beginning to think that the less we do the better it is for them in the long run. I'm pretty sure they will milk us for as long as they need to. For some, that's a lifetime. For others, just long enough until they find another person to milk, whether it be for money, or support, or advice, or just an audience. I think we will be discarded instantly if they find a proper substitute. We are easy marks because we raised them so we assume we had a hand in why they are like this and therefore feel guilty and also because we remember them as the sweet helpless babies who needed us and so it's a constant pull on our heartstrings. Except now they're grownups. When they're in those in-between years of 18-25 or so, they can still get to us because we're half thinking they just haven't quite grown up yet and need a little extra time over their peers. Then they move to their late twenties and they can still probably get things out of us even though they'll get a lot of pushback from us, but once they're in their 30s then they have to start concocting big-league excuses, often involving drug addiction or other things we can "save" them from. I think it's best to stop then con the moment you realize it's happening. I'm at 25, you're at 20. You could probably go a few more years and still feel ok about yourself, but why bother? Why continue it even a moment more? That's what I'm thinking anyway.

[Tulipps]

I started setting and maintaining boundaries in May when my daughter's decision making was taking her "unrelenting crises" to new levels. Phone calls, texts, emails - also unrelenting and raging. Counselling stopped after  "on-again, off-again" relationship blew up for the last time in April. Two suicide attempts in the past 2 months - the last one blamed on us (me and C/L husband) for not answering our phones. She sent a good-bye email at midnight to family members and those in more favourable time zones called police.  We hoped something positive - a reality check, eg, would come from the 72 hour psychiatric hold, but no. Her communication is either baiting or blaming. I'm accused of gaslighting, sabotaging, lacking compassion, and of course, abandoning her repeatedly. I am responsible for every unhappy moment and every failure in her life. 
Like many others report in this chain, we've been blocked and unblocked so many times we've lost count. She has respected our boundaries about calling, but we're starting to see one or two baiting texts pop up in the past few days. History has shown that ANY response pulls us into a vortex of garbage immediately. She will ask "what am I supposed to do?"  Responses we've tried:
"You're incredibly smart... you'll figure it out"
"That sounds like a great topic to discuss with your counsellor or someone else you trust"
Both result in immediate rage and expletives.
 If we ask a question in response, for example:
"What options are you considering?"
"What would you like to see happen?"
The result is the same. "Stop pretending to care" "You're going to put me out on the street." "Don't you realize I tried to kill myself?"
She is working in a job that pays commission - work she enjoys but her earnings don't support her spending. This is problematic for her because the Bank of Mom closed in April and I'll be giving notice on her apartment and utilities for the end of November. There have been countless attempted conversation about this over the past two years but my timing is always off. She's either too sad or too happy. I've sent the plan in email only to be told she deleted it. Now she's out of time and rather than take action to help herself (there are hundreds of jobs out there!), she has started a phone campaign to family saying how evil I am. She is loved but no one is jumping in to help her which just perpetuates her self-loathing, rejection and abandonment.
I've changed my will and am bracing for whatever happens.

[M-T]

Leaf 56 - Thank you for being there. I posted and then had a meeting to go to and then family life. It's true, though, that often when I post on here, I'm refreshing the page to see if anyone has advice. I am slowly accepting that "nothing" may be the best approach and that - in this situation - this may be the best love I can give. It's just hard for me to feel like it's healthy. And I read other things on here about how you can work on validating feelings, etc. and I know I am very very bad at that. So I do want to practice that but I don't want the opportunity to practice it. By that I mean, I don't feel like being around my daughter. And I struggle to know how important it is to be honest with her. So instead of giving her my own reasons that she can't stay here (busy, covid concerns, etc.), being honest that it is really about her lack of planning and inability to stick to medication/therapy/work and to be a positive member of the family when here. It's just hard to go there.

Tulipps - I'm sorry you are going through that with your daughter. Mine always says her suicide attempts are "wakeup calls that she does want to be alive" but that feeling seems to fade very quickly. I like some of the responses you suggest. These are all tools I really need to practice with my daughter. How did you get to the point of telling her and how did you communicate to her that, "I'm not going to listen to your problems/provide solutions any longer?" I know that it doesn't really matter how we respond, anger is the common side effect.

[Leaf56]

Tulipps, you may not need anyone to confirm back to you that you're doing the right thing, but of course you are doing the right thing. Doesn't it always seem though that there's always just one more thing that you can easily help them with that drags you back in? If it were anyone else you'd say "you're on your own." It's just because it's your child that you want to believe that if you just do this one more thing for them that that will be the thing that turns it around and it's the hope of that that ropes you in. And it's so hard to kill the hope that perhaps something will turn it around. But it never does. But you could spend a lifetime in that cycle, or you can stop, with the comfort of knowing it's not up to you anyway. Much of it was up to you, of course, when they were under 18. We had a legal and moral obligation to them. But once they achieved the age of majority, it became, in fact, up to them, and we just have to keep reminding ourselves that doing it for them is not doing them any favors.

M-T, I spent my son's life validating his feelings, and being uber compassionate and responsive because he was so sensitive etc. It didn't help one bit. He got very used to that, so now that I'm no longer doing that he is rather baffled and angry. Validating does not work. It works with psychologically healthy people, but not with them. Really. Sure it makes them feel better, but it just empowers them to continue acting the way they do. What they need is to have the entire structure of their personality invalidated. I just had a long conversation with my son, after the debacle yesterday that I recounted on the audience removed thread, and in that conversation, as I have done over and over again, I've worked to dismantle the foundation on which he's built his personality. I'm really beginning to try to break it down into discrete parts, and today I spent some time going over them AGAIN with him, trying to make some headway, but none was made. He is LOCKED in to his mindset and nothing I say seems to have any impact. Here are some of the things I discussed:

*His "I don't care" defense mechanisms produced from circular logic, i.e., I want a girlfriend, but to get a gf I have to have a good job, but to get a good job I have to work, but I hate to work, working is for slaves, people don't really need any of the stuff they spend money on anyway, people who like things are bad people, if women like things then they are bad people, all women are bad, therefore I don't value them, therefore I don't need to get a job, but I want a gf. He's been stuck in this loop for years.

*Envy. Practically everything about him stems from this and I'd say all of his entrenched defense mechanisms, which added together result in his personality, stem from this emotion.

*Rage/anger. The result of the envy or the thwarting of desires. He rages at not getting what he wants and the supposed injustice of not getting what he wants. And then he uses that rage either directly or by redirecting it to another type of behavior like manipulation to achieve the desired result. 

*Learned helplessness. He literally can't do anything without someone else's input.

These 4 things are his personality. There's nothing to like. And then he whines, "Why can't a woman just like me for who I am?" So I reply "because this (see above) is who you are. No one could love that. You have to change." To which he replies, "But I don't want to/can't." And that is where we end. He does not want to change. He just wants to be accepted by a woman as he is. He has said over and over "why can't a woman just love me and take care of me as I am, without a job, etc."

[Leaf56]

Forgot to add that what I think I'm trying to say here is that it's absolutely crucial not to validate any of this BS. You can validate the fact that they had innate sensitivities that led to them developing these completely non-working horrible personalities, but you should not validate any aspect of the the non-working horrible personality. If there are any good things in their personalities then of course validate those, but DON'T validate anything else. They have to dismantle and rebuild. And their personalities did not develop like this because they weren't validated in childhood or because their caregivers weren't responsive to their sensitivities. I'm certain of it.

[Lollypop]

Hi there Leaf

I’m hardly ever here these days but popped on today to see a PM. I saw your post and thought I should reply.

I'm interested to know if anyone here has mostly stopped helping their adult child, not necessarily out of exasperation but to see if that might work instead.

I started to help my adult son:
- by not giving him any money
- by providing stability in the form of free bed and board
- by putting our relationship as my top priority

I've been giving this a lot of thought and am starting to think the McLean experts are wrong and that the approach they advocate for families is merely exacerbating BPD. Sure, their techniques can help manage the problem, but they never cure it, and they really just require family members to change themselves, when really the change needs to come from the person with BPD. (This is assuming a mostly healthy family, of course.)

We can’t change others.
We can only change ourselves.
If something is not working then a change of approach is necessary.
We do the work, knowing that the only reward might be the security of our own financial future.
We demonstrate what a healthy relationship ship looks like - one where one half isn’t putting more in than the other (emotionally and financially).

I've read about how "tough love" techniques have failed in other situations, but maybe they weren't done as highly consciously as the way in which I'm suggesting. *Edited to clarify I'm talking about an ADULT child.

Tough love is throwing them out and letting them struggle so they heard the hard way.

As my adult son at 24 did not have the skills, confidence, or the mental ability to problem solve (particularly multi-skills) I felt that using “tough love” would only bring us all utter anguish. I respect others that take the hard decision to kick them out,

My son’s specific problems at 24 were:
- depression
- drug addiction
- no financial skills
- financial dependence on us (which we’d stupidly fostered)
- no job
- isolated from everything and everybody (except his dealer)

His growth only started when we stopped giving him money. Whilst at the same time, proved to him that things were different, we loved him, he had a home and his own space. It’s a difficult balance act to love and have better limits & boundaries.

It took him 4 weeks to get himself 1 days casual work. I drove him to it. It took 6 months as he learnt to manage his money, by which time he was full time. I then charged him rent to contribute to his living expenses, when I knew he could cope financially I told him it was time to try living independently.

6 years on he’s living independently. .we learnt a lesson 3 years ago when we lent him money for a car, we didn’t get paid back.

We will never lend him money again. It interferes  with the relationship - which is still our priority, We may at some point in the future give him a gift of money - it will be up to him how he spends it but we will think very carefully about it. He’s stable and it can de-rail him.

This is my story. My approach worked for us, my family is in a better place, despite the problems.

The change has to be in us, people with BPD can’t change on their own - the can change unconsciously by “feeling” and seeing how others behave and interact. They learn from us.

LP

[Leaf56]

Lollypop, you said this: "The change has to be in us, people with BPD can’t change on their own - the can change unconsciously by “feeling” and seeing how others behave and interact. They learn from us."

In one sense, I couldn't agree more. All my years of empathizing, helping, brainstorming, being sensitive to, helping with all the hurdles those with extra sensitivities encounter at school/in life, being understanding, loving, respecting, not judging, being completely open, talking about anything, always being there to listen, wiping the tears, sitting with while he cried, encouraging, supporting in new endeavors and helping acquire new competencies, etc. etc. etc.— all of that didn't amount to a HILL OF BEANS. The ONLY thing that has worked is cutting off the money and refusing to allow him in our house because he has threatened to kill people etc. Unlike you though, I don't even want to have a relationship with this person until he changes, so if cutting him off teaches him that he has to respect me or lose his relationship with me, which he values above all other things, then so be it.

I believe that my son has the skills, confidence, and mental ability to do whatever the heck he wants. I believe that he wants everything handed to him on a silver platter, because, guess what? He's actually said that so many times it'd make you sick. He clearly states that he does not ever want to work, he says he is just too lazy and uninterested. He has no interest in "doing a good job" or in "working hard." He recoils from those suggestions that that is what is needed to succeed. You could say, "at least he's being honest," and I guess you'd be right, cuz at least I know what I'm dealing with.

[Lollypop]

Hi leaf

He does not want to change.

No he doesn’t. There’s no motivation to change. He’s unable to problem solve his way out of the cycle.

My top 3 priorities:
1. Improve our relationship
2. Improve financial management skills
3. Get him living independently

I ran with these for at least 2 years. It look SO MUCH patience and focussed short sentence communication.

I’m a talker and I think you may be too? Your posts read do eloquently.

Feeling safe, for my son, meant living day to day without criticism or judgement. I never spoke about problems and I never ever offered him advice unless he asked. I got light as a fairy. It took months but he warmed to me. He could only then at least “hear” me when I did speak.

My son sounds like yours - he wants to live differently, doesn’t want responsibilities and questions society norms.

Stick to truths.
- I wasn’t prepared to financially support an adult who was perfectly capable of working (if he could only dig holes or push a store trolley they so be it).
- I have my own life, it is the only thing I’m responsible for.
- my son is responsible for his own life and choices

Again, what worked for me may not work for you. I suggest you get back to basics and work out what you want in your life and focus on that. Can you see my 3 priorities were for me?

LP


We got crossed so I’m adding this Leaf.

Unlike you though, I don't even want to have a relationship with this person until he changes, so if cutting him off teaches him that he has to respect me or lose his relationship with me, which he values above all other things, then so be it.

Oh no, I didn’t want a relationship with him at all. I was sick and tired of his taking, lying and stealing. I didn’t like him and it sure felt there was little to love. But you know what, by practising my number one priority I did find some glimpses of the person I once knew (albeit, a tricky manipulator). My son didn’t respect me until he witnessed I was “trying to change myself” so we could get along better. It was reverse psychology.

Your son loves you. You clearly love your son by all that youve tried. I often had periods of “rest” from him. I had a yo-yo door. It was only by taking guidance on this forum that my situation changed. Only you can know if and when that might be for you, I totally get it. My son has odd values, I wonder how on Earth I ever conceived him. He knew I had no respect for him, he felt it - so I had to change that. It took a lot of effort to nurture a different environment - if all else failed at least the feelings of resentment and Shame were calmed down.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Leaf56]

Lollypop, then we are on the same page! I'm happy to see that others are following the exact same path as I am and getting good results! I'd love to hear more success stories of people who have ceased helping their adult kids! Bring 'em on! 

[Tulipps]

How did you get to the point of telling her and how did you communicate to her that, "I'm not going to listen to your problems/provide solutions any longer?" I know that it doesn't really matter how we respond, anger is the common side effect.

First - thanks for the support, M-T. I've been working with a counsellor since November who has helped significantly, and of course, posts on this site from folks like you are most helpful.
I ignored 2 baiting texts, the last one being a screenshot from instagram "How to Support Someone Suicidal". A 3rd text followed: "May I ask why you bothered unblocking me?"

I have no interest in being pulled in to a text exchange, so I sent a very brief DEAR format email later in the day acknowledging what I believed was her frustration that I hadn't responded followed by what type of communication I would respond to and what would be unanswered... similar to Flossy's guidelines  (thank you). That was 2 days ago. Silence since.

I appreciate this chain of posts greatly.

[Leaf56]

So Tulipps, I'm curious, are you relieved by the silence, or agitated? I'm always relieved by the silence, and I've had great success in putting my foot down about the texts. I've been very clear in telling him that if he sends an objectionable one, I will block him immediately and that he risks losing his relationship with me if he can't respect this. He has not sent one in about 2 weeks and I'm delighted.

[Tulipps]

Forgot to add that what I think I'm trying to say here is that it's absolutely crucial not to validate any of this BS. You can validate the fact that they had innate sensitivities that led to them developing these completely non-working horrible personalities, but you should not validate any aspect of the the non-working horrible personality. If there are any good things in their personalities then of course validate those, but DON'T validate anything else. They have to dismantle and rebuild. And their personalities did not develop like this because they weren't validated in childhood or because their caregivers weren't responsive to their sensitivities. I'm certain of it.

Couldn't agree more. What happens next will be 100% my daughter's choice, whether it be a "reset" or hitting rock bottom. 

Thanks for starting this chain and sharing your stories and support. So much of what you and others have posted resonates. 



 

[Tulipps]

So Tulipps, I'm curious, are you relieved by the silence, or agitated? I'm always relieved by the silence, and I've had great success in putting my foot down about the texts. I've been very clear in telling him that if he sends an objectionable one, I will block him immediately and that he risks losing his relationship with me if he can't respect this. He has not sent one in about 2 weeks and I'm delighted.

Relieved.
That said, I'm not out of the woods or the weeds until she's out of the apartment since I'm on the lease and utilities. Some communication will be necessary until that happens in November but I can still maintain boundaries.
And ya... she's on my cell phone family plan as well. Changing that with next billing cycle.

[Leaf56]

I can relate to that feeling of just wanting to cut absolutely every financial tie. It's an absolutely amazing feeling when it's over. I felt 1,000 lbs lighter. I will never entangle my life with my son's in any way like that again.

[guiltymom]

Chiming in to say that my son (about to turn 24) also "questions society's norms," which came up in an earlier post. One of the things he likes to complain about to me and my husband is "groupthink" and how everyone is "brainwashed" and "always looking at their phones." Like someone else on this thread (I think it was Lollypop) said, he has cut off all social contacts, even though he's always had lots of friends.

(He first started slowly pulling away from friends his senior year of high school, which was the year that, in hindsight, I should have realized he had serious mental health issues. Oh well. About to start my own therapy to talk about that . . .)

My husband and I have made the decision to continue to pay our son's rent for the next year. He moved to a city about three hours away from us in July. For us, the better choice was to support him financially rather than have him live with us. He lived with us for a few months this year, and he's just too disruptive and unpleasant for that to continue. I'd rather go broke, personally.

He does always manage to find a (minimum wage) job when he relocates; he just never likes the job or his new city for more than a few months. Like you, Leaf, I have an internal countdown to when he can't be on our health insurance any longer. Trying not to worry about that.

Drifting off track . . . but I found it interesting that several of the young adult children mentioned here seem to have a grievance with societal norms and attitudes.

[Leaf56]

But see, I know that he developed these views as an elaborate defense mechanism against having to work. I'm absolutely certain of it, and he confirms that. I think he believed early that, in his words, he "doesn't have what it takes to have a 'high-powered' career," so he gave up and developed a world-view to support his inherent lack of ambition and willingness to work. He just wants to be taken care of. He has also stated that clearly many times. He is tortured by the "unfairness" that women get to marry rich men and be taken care of or that there are people who inherit money and don't have to work. He is cripplingly envious of other people. It's bizarre. I raised all my kids the same way my parents raised me, by telling them early and often that I'd pay for college but after that they were on their own, no ifs, ands, or buts. And I also told them early and often that they would always have to work and work hard, that nobody was ever going to hand them anything, and that their lives would be what they make of them. Two of my kids understood the lesson perfectly. Edited to add that he also has said he never wants to see any of his former friends, but on further investigation it becomes clear that it's just because he realizes he's a failure compared to them and hearing about them triggers him.

[M-T]

My daughter also complains about societal expectations and takes radical stances such as, "I shouldn't have to work to survive." Look, I'm liberal and I understand the gist of what she is saying. All people deserve to live comfortably, to make a living wage. But yeah...you still have to work. Let's go back 150 years and see how hard everyone had to work to survive. She also complains that the world isn't set up for or understanding of those that are not neurotypical, like herself. She wants to be able to tell everyone that she is borderline, depressed, anxious, etc. and for them to understand and give her lenience. She has actually had some very understanding and forgiving supervisors. But alas, she finds a way to quit or be fired.

As far as friends, she also has a very hard time keeping any friends. It started in high school. There was always some sort of injustice that had been done against her, accusations that her friends weren't "there for her" even when it was obvious they were going out of their way to be there for her (and understandably not understanding what it would take to make her happy). The pattern continues. She can't keep friends. She's too accusatory and very, very intense. I can't imagine how her bf is with her. He is young and she tells me stories about the way she talks to him.

So, in my experience, I think it's a combination of a recognition of their "difference" and self-sabotage. They pull away from friends because their friends don't know how to handle them and the friends exhibit their confusion in various ways (avoidance, anger, rejection, etc.). BPD person then blames that person for the problem (though inside probably are hating themselves) and eventually when they see the pattern, they just start pre-empting the rejection by saying, "I hate people," "I reject societal norms," etc. But really, they just don't know how to be a friend.

[Leaf56]

Wow, M-T, you could totally be talking about my son:

"She also complains that the world isn't set up for or understanding of those that are not neurotypical, like herself. She wants to be able to tell everyone that she is borderline, depressed, anxious, etc. and for them to understand and give her lenience. She has actually had some very understanding and forgiving supervisors. But alas, she finds a way to quit or be fired."

Every word of this is exactly him. I'm really wondering now if the way their generation was raised and whatever the cultural zeitgeist was that we didn't notice because we were adults (common TV shows, movies, social media influences) had a hand in creating this. There's also the "lying flat" movement in China, where young people are opting out of the "rat race." This is so interesting.

My son had three best friends in childhood who always stood by him and having been a teenaged girl myself it seems that my three boys have had it much easier than I did. But since they've gotten older they've definitely kept more distance from him as they've gone on to either be successful or be dedicated to being successful while he just stews in his unhappy juices. And this is just so spot on: "they just start pre-empting the rejection by saying, 'I hate people.'"

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[guiltymom]

Yes, yes, yes—my son pushes his friends away as a preemptive rejection. First his high school and middle school friends, then the friends from his three years in college. A complete break. And, as someone else has mentioned, he gets angry when I suggest reaching back out to them. I finally learned to stop doing that. I agree that he does this because he's incredibly embarrassed about where he is in life compared to most of his former friends.

And yes, I agree that our generation's (I'm 53) parenting style (hovering, way too involved, etc.) has really done a number on these kids, along with social media.

[Leaf56]

So they're consumed by envy and then blame us for the fact that they're not where they wished they'd be in comparison to others. And we have a hand in them feeling this way because we told them over and over "You can be anything you want to be!" "You're awesome just the way you are!" etc. So, basically what we're conjecturing is that it's possible that it might have been better to be more blatantly truthful about who they were/are and what they could actually accomplish. Because that's basically what my son is expressing to me now, sort of a "How could you have told me the world was my oyster? You made me believe that but really I don't have what it takes to get there" and maybe, in fact, he's right. It's like the big push here in the U.S. to send EVERYONE to college during the Obama years. Now all these not-so-smart kids have giant college loans to pay off and no real clue as to how their degrees in various liberal arts areas could possibly lead to a job, because, guess what? they can't! And again, this flies in the face of the Linehan theory that if only she had been supported better by her mother she would not have "developed" BPD. Turns out support or no support, they still end up with BPD. So I'm back to the idea that's it's going to happen anyway, because plenty of kids with hovering parents ended up being wildly successful. In fact, I think we all had better take a long look at Judith Rich Harris' book The Nurture Assumption, in which she basically proved that parenting really has very little affect on outcome. I'd forgotten about her stuff in the last couple months since I've been here, but I'm happy I've remembered.

[M-T]

I was never much of a helicopter parent and am not great at saying "good job" all the time, because I had read it could ultimately be detrimental. Looking back, I think my daughter might have needed that a little more. What's interesting is that she does have so much potential. She always wanted to go to college and we never pushed her to that route. Sometimes she would discuss perhaps taking time off first and we were always supportive. Having had a ton of college loan debt myself, and knowing the costs of college now, I was fine with that for her. But she wanted it so bad and she did make it through 1 year with decent grades. But she has certainly said and implied that we pressured her to be more than she could, to go to college, etc. It is truly what she believes, because she perceived that pressure from her own internal turmoil. But the accusations are baseless.

Since the BPD flared up just in the last few years, and we got a diagnosis only a year ago, I'm just now re-adjusting my expectations for her. There was a time when I believed she could be really successful. I knew she'd have to work for it. But now I'm not so sure. And I think what she needs is for us to lower those expectations so she's not always "trying" and failing.

[M-T]

Oh yes, and I should add that I do think it is a generational thing, not completely tied to parenting styles, but most certainly fed by social media. There is a more openness to addressing trauma and being more open about mental health and I think, in general, these are all good things. But there is still a reality to the world that is hard to make the BPD understand and accept.

[Leaf56]

Right, partly because their peers’ successes are constantly paraded in front of them on social media.