The less I do and the more I pull away, the better things get.- Part 2

[Leaf56]

Continued from: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=351656.msg13154633#msg13154633I posted something over on my identity disturbance thread that I'm going to repost here.

James Masterson, one of the top BPD experts of our era (though now deceased) says this in his classic Search for the Real Self:

"This lifelong inability to separate [on the part of certain patients] and become autonomous was probably due to an innate genetic deficiency. The possibility that it might have been due to severely damaging developmental experiences was unlikely since their early histories were no worse than the early histories of other adolescent patients who did better in the study. Currently there is little research evidence regarding the exact nature of this type of genetic deficiency, but we have seen that some severely impaired individuals, whose conditions cannot be directly attributed to failures in nurturance or to acts of fate, do not respond to therapy of any kind; we assume that the root of the problem in these cases lies in a genetic or biologic deficiency. For example, studies have shown that the infantile psychotic will not respond to even the best mothering. In these cases, it appears that some innate deficiency, not inadequate mothering, is responsible. So nature has seen to it that we will not go through the first three years of life with the same ease or difficulty. Some of us will separate from our mothers and express our own uniqueness more easily, some of us will have a harder struggle to do so. Nature has not endowed each of us with the same psychological seeds for developing a real self, and as adults each person has her own unique range of strengths and weaknesses in the real self's capacities. What is present at birth will grow and develop, just as in a tree, the fruit, flower, leaves, bark, and structure are contained in the smallest of seeds."

I hope everyone who reads this thread but possibly not the other thread reads and digests this piece of information. If you are a parent like me who knows FOR SURE that they did absolutely nothing that could have possibly caused BPD to develop and that no outside thing or act of fate happened in your child with BPD's life, I think you should take at least some solace in the above passage. And then I think you should, if you haven't already, accept the fact that there is NOTHING you can do that will change this. It's so very sad, but it's just a fact. Many, many before me on this message board have already come to this conclusion.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Elizabeth22]

Hi,

I have, it's my uBPD DIL. I joined maybe 6 years ago?
This thread is a relief and looks a lot like what was probably the last post I made here, Sept 2020.

My perception of the advice I was getting here was I am supposed to understand this person and figure out ways to deal with them, so I kind of felt maybe I was in the wrong place.
That is not to say that some people here have not been very kind and helpful to me (they def have and thank you). I just saw dynamics being described that I did not want in my own life. No judgement on anyone, I believe we are all doing the best we can.

I went no contact with said DIL and remain that way. It's a disaster for my son, but a disaster he chooses to live with.
She will try to get everyone and anyone to do everything and anything for her so she can just have as little responsibilty as possible and live her life how she wants. Basically, rescue her from prior choices, like becoming a mother, because she can't be bothered anymore. Yes, it hurts the kids and that hurts me but I can't be a hostage to it. I do have contact with my son after years of on and off contact, he finally realized I am not really the problem tho he does like to blame me sometimes when he backslides. I tell him to go ahead and blame me, I won't be taking responsibility for what is going wrong due to his own choices. He seems to get it now, that his choice to blame me does not mean the blame belongs to me, it's his choice he is making so he can avoid blaming her or himself. But by not fighting it and just brushing it off with "hey, I really don't care if you blame me" it seems to have lost some of it's appeal. He is diagnosed with ADD and I think there is something else going on with him but he has not  shared it with me and I don't press for info.

It's affected my health and everything about my life and it didn't even start with her, it started with my son's prior fiance and the child they had.

I took a good look around my family and remembered things therapists  said to me and realized my family is just filled with personality disorders, mental illness and addiction. Luckily, I personally escaped that in myself, my diagnoses are not really genetic (ptsd, anxiety disorder) but I do believe there is a strong genetic component to a lot of of this, which may explain why my son chose to have children with 2 women who seem to have BPD. I don't have any personality disorder but for some reason he is attracted to women who do. My mother did, this was confirmed by a therapist I had who met my mother, because she insisted she come to my appointment to defend herself. My normally non reactive therapist was kind of bug eyed thru the entire thing, so I know it was really bad.

Anyway, just a little catch up on me because I have not posted here in a while, but all my old posts are around here somewhere if anyone wants to read them. At some point I was actually trying to validate people here to want to walk away because my understanding of the default position here is to try to work with the BPD person and I just do not agree with that -

I can't.

All the thinking about my mother and genetics caused me to examine my own daughter more closely. She is literally a nightmare and we have been no contact for about 5 years. I dared to disagree with her friend about the something  in the news. She is just like my mother and I have been split not into just bad, but really super extra bad.

She writes many works of fiction about me and her childhood and her imaginary abuse, neglect, etc. and makes the posts public. She is very punishing, when she is not targeting me she is targeting someone else. She gets sued quite a bit, I am serious. I will never have any relationship with her again, I mourned the loss and am moving on. Under no circumstance, no matter how dire, will I ever acknowledge her again.

My theory on this is no matter how they came into your life, you can let go, you have a right to. Many years ago a therapist said to me "you have no obligation whatsoever to keep someone in your life who is abusive to you". It rendered me speechless (not an easy thing to do), I had no idea I didn't have to find a way to deal with or cope with or tip toe around the abuse.

Also, I was 'the fixer' in my family, so you can imagine how that blew my mind.

  to posters both familiar and new, I hope my response is in keeping with the topic and not too long.

[Leaf56]

Elizabeth22, thanks so much for stopping by the thread and adding your thoughts. I really appreciate it! I went back and read some of your older posts and found this quote from one of them to be particularly relevant:

"I guess maybe people come here to work thru these feelings and try to deal with the BPD person in their/our lives, but I decided I don't have to. Her mental illness is her responsibility, it's not my job to constantly deal with her, try to manage and navigate thru situations she causes then do it all over again. I do not believe these people are as helpless as we are led to believe, I think they know exactly what they are doing and how it affects people. I just make myself unavailable to her, I don't know if that's an option for you. My husband's therapist, and my own, back this 100%. They don't ask us to understand her, they tell us not to put up with her."

Exactly!

And then I liked this one too: "Like  you, I have feelings of hate and anger toward her.  I am not ashamed of these feelings and I don't plan on doing anything about it. She had recently tried to reach out to me thru my son and says she wants things to be 'normal again' and wants to 'get along again'. I said no, I am done with the absolute insanity and having to live with all the damage she has caused to me and others in my family, and continues to cause and will cause again."

I've called others here rock stars for taking this stance so I think the moniker is in order here too!

[Leaf56]

Hello to anyone who follows this thread. I know a few of you have this thread bookmarked, and some have reached out to me via private mail (see green bar above where it says Pvt Mail if you've never seen it) that it's been a lifeline. I generally like to keep the discussion on a thread as close to the original title as possible, but in this case I think I'm just going to start posting anything I have to say about BPD here as opposed to starting other threads (like my "identity disturbance" or "what if their audience is removed?" threads). I think in the end it will keep things tidier. So that said, I have something on my mind.

When I recently re-read James Masterson's Search for the Real Self, I was reminded that the genesis of what will emerge as the borderline personality occurs when a child does not successfully separate from his mother before age 3, either because (1) the mother herself somehow prevents the separation by her type of parenting (see description below), (2) fate intervenes and the child is separated from the mother before age 3 due to her death, her prolonged hospitalization, or the child's prolonged hospitalization, or (3) because the child is born with the genetic inability to activate his real self. I see a lot of folks on here saying that their child's BPD was caused by rape, or abuse, or some other type of thing that occurred later in life, and I think it's important that we all understand the fundamental dynamic of BPD as it has been described by the psychiatrists who recognized it. For your child to "have" BPD, your child would have not been able to separate before he was 3. So, see above "fateful" reasons, and if it's not due to those, then for it to be your fault, you would have had to have been an overly clingy mother, or somehow have infantilized your child, or relied on your child for your own worth and emotional support. You would have had to actively have prevented your child from separating because you didn't want him to, because you wanted to control him, because his attempts at separation panicked you or depressed you. You would have wanted your child to fill a hole in your life. If he rejected you when he was a child, it would have hurt you to your core. If he wanted to spend time with others this would have saddened you, and you would have found ways to prevent it. If your child is not genetically predisposed to developing BPD, then, according to Masterson, it is this type of parenting that leads to it. If you don't recognize yourself in that description (and I can't tell you how much I don't recognize myself in that description) then: (1) your child does not "have" BPD, (2) your child was genetically predisposed to developing BPD due to the non-emergence of the real self prior to age 3, or (3) Masterson is wrong.

This is the question I'm currently mulling. I'm wondering a lot whether BPD has been massively overdiagnosed/misdiagnosed/is just completely a wrong and unreal diagnosis. I'm also wondering if what I see as the genetic version, the "caused by smothering" version, and a version that is, I think, really more histrionic personality disorder are really just all distinct "disorders" with similar but very different expressions. I'm wondering still about the overlap of person with *subclinical ASD* and *those who have been diagnosed before the 2000s with pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified* with schizotypal personality disorder. I just no longer think we're all talking about the same disorder on this board. I welcome your thoughts.

[Leaf56]

Then there's Linehan's theory:

"Linehan proposed that the development of BPD occurs within an invalidating developmental context. This invalidating environment is characterized by intolerance toward the expression of private emotional experiences, in particular emotions that are not supported by observable events. Furthermore, although invalidating environments intermittently reinforce extreme expressions of emotion, they simultaneously communicate to the child that such emotional displays are unwarranted and that emotions should be coped with internally and without parental support. Consequently, the child does not learn how to understand, label, regulate, or tolerate emotional responses and instead learns to oscillate between emotional inhibition and extreme emotional lability. The child also fails to learn how to solve the problems contributing to these emotional reactions."

I believe that Linehan's theory is total BS and is based on her own extremely biased experience as a person with BPD. My child couldn't have been any more validated throughout his entire life. I did it highly consciously from the moment he was born. My sister believed herself to have been invalidated in childhood, but I was there. It wasn't that she was invalidated, it was that she was a PITA and did not get positive reinforcement for it. I'm sure that my experiences are not the only exceptions to this theory.

[Elizabeth22]

Years ago and I cannot remember when or where, I was reading a lot of "BPD is not real and not generally accepted by the psychiatric community, it's a catchall diagnosis that can be the combination of a few diagnoses or just something to use as a label when a diagnosis can't be found" (me paraphrasing).

This is from Wikipedia and if this is a cause, I should definitely have it, and I don't.

Childhood trauma
There is a strong correlation between child abuse, especially child sexual abuse, and development of BPD.[75][76][77] Many individuals with BPD report a history of abuse and neglect as young children, but causation is still debated.[78] Patients with BPD have been found to be significantly more likely to report having been verbally, emotionally, physically, or sexually abused by caregivers of either sex.[79] They also report a high incidence of incest and loss of caregivers in early childhood.[80] Individuals with BPD were also likely to report having caregivers of both sexes deny the validity of their thoughts and feelings. Caregivers were also reported to have failed to provide needed protection and to have neglected their child's physical care. Parents of both sexes were typically reported to have withdrawn from the child emotionally and to have treated the child inconsistently.[80] Additionally, women with BPD who reported a previous history of neglect by a female caregiver or abuse by a male caregiver were significantly more likely to have experienced sexual abuse by a non-caregiver.[80]

It has been suggested that children who experience chronic early maltreatment and attachment difficulties may go on to develop borderline personality disorder.[81] Writing in the psychoanalytic tradition, Otto Kernberg argues that a child's failure to achieve the developmental task of psychic clarification of self and other and failure to overcome splitting might increase the risk of developing a borderline personality.[82]

[Leaf56]

Elizabeth22, big hugs. I was never abused in any way so I can't even imagine, but I have tremendous sympathy for adult children who've been abused.

[Leaf56]

My S25 told me a few days ago that he suspects his physical therapist is a lizard. (Upon further investigation, I realized that he was referring to the David Icke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke conspiracy theory that the world is controlled by a cabal of shape-shifting reptile humanoids. His leanings toward these thoughts are greatly exacerbated by his marijuana use. He told me he's going to attend an AA type meeting for people who are dependent on marijuana tonight.) I told him that of course he doesn't believe that and that I think he's just trying to get me to react. I told him that if he does indeed believe that, he should go straight to a hospital because he's hallucinating and needs to be on medication. I told him I'm really not equipped as a person to handle drug use or schizophrenia so he should be careful about what he's saying if it's not true because those two things in particular will alienate me since I have an almost phobic response to both. I realize that it's possible that it's true, and I'll deal with it if it is, but I can't help but believe he's trying to render himself helpless to his mental defects in the hopes I'll take care of him. The fact that he continually asks me to take care of him is a tell. Then in the strangest turn of events, he told me he's been involved with a woman over the past year or so, that she's not up to his standards of beauty and therefore he can't possibly be interested in her but that they see each other almost every day and they have sex when "she manipulates him into it." He at turns said she's very supportive and validating of him but that that makes him not trust her. He also said he hates her. He said she's going to go to a college a couple hours from here and starts in January (she didn't go after graduation from HS). Just to see what he'd say, I suggested that he go with her and that maybe she could support him. He was instantly enthralled with the idea and basically couldn't get off the phone fast enough with me to explore this possibility with her. The rapidity with which he transferred his need of me to support him to another woman was sort of astounding, though also expected. He said that if she supported him, he would devote his life to her and cherish her more than anything. He said this about a woman he had just said he could never love, be sexually attracted to, or respect. So while this idea might solve some of my problems with him (at least for a period of time), I feel incredibly guilty about the possibility of pawning him off on some strange woman. But she wants him to be her boyfriend more than anything in the world.

[Leaf56]

Last night he texted, "I love you and miss you."

Today he texted, "I'm losing even more weight."

I just feel so manipulated, but I'm standing my ground.

[Tulipps]

I've been quietly reading in the background and haven't posted for a while. Thanks to Leaf and others for continuing to provide inspiration and encouragement.
Boundaries are in place and my stomach is a knot of emotions: anger (this was a surprise), anxiety, fear, grief... perhaps other things as well I haven't quite figured out.
She quit counselling - again - because she wouldn't make the "life worth living commitment" and take suicide off the table for 10 weeks. I won't talk to her unless with a mediator so there's been no conversation. She triangulated through her 94 year old grandmother (my mom) in hopes of gaining a holiday invitation.
When I find my mind wandering into thoughts about whether she'll lose her car, her job and not have a phone... to what if her dog dies or her latest bf breaks up with her, I distract myself with Alanon reading and some great stuff I've found on this site. The crises have been unrelenting for a dozen years, and not surprisingly, have escalated severely in the past twelve months, indirectly proportional to my level of support. Bottom line:
I allowed myself to be manipulated for YEARS.
I allowed her to successfully push the 6 trigger buttons (hope, fear, guilt, sympathy, intimidation and exhaustion) for YEARS.
I allowed myself to be manipulated with "baby girl", "your worst fear" and "promises" for YEARS.
The HUGE emotional and financial disruption I've allowed in my life is staggering.
I'm 64. She is 34. No more. No longer.

[Leaf56]

{{{Tulipps}}}} I just wanted to offer my very sincere support and say, “Good for you!”

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Flossy]

Bottom line:
I allowed myself to be manipulated for YEARS.
I allowed her to successfully push the 6 trigger buttons (hope, fear, guilt, sympathy, intimidation and exhaustion) for YEARS.
I allowed myself to be manipulated with "baby girl", "your worst fear" and "promises" for YEARS.
The HUGE emotional and financial disruption I've allowed in my life is staggering.
I'm 64. She is 34. No more. No longer.

No you haven't allowed it. You couldn't possibly have allowed it ...because
 you didn't know. "allowing" something requires full presentation of knowledge of something, acceptance and giving in to it.

Maybe change the wording from "I allowed" ...to "I had"...

Your daughter is an expert in how she navigates the world and communicates. You are only just now beginning to "know/have knowledge" of how she thinks, behaves and communicates.

It's horrifying. But I must congratulate you on your intelligence and ability to see the truth despite the terrible but normal human emotions you will suffer as you see it more and more. Well done! You will be okay eventually.
I too, have had enough.

Age 68
Australia
Daughter unBPD 51...kept from grandson 6-20 years.
Estranged - her choice - 14 years
Now my choice.
I dont want her back in my life.

[Flossy]

My S25 told me a few days ago that he suspects his physical therapist is a lizard. (Upon further investigation, I realized that he was referring to the David Icke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/

I told him that if he does indeed believe that, he should go straight to a hospital because he's hallucinating and needs to be on medication. I told him I'm really not equipped as a person to handle drug use or schizophrenia so he should be careful about what he's saying if it's not true
...Brilliant, perfect response.

elp but believe he's trying to render himself helpless to his mental defects in the hopes I'll take care of him. The fact that he continually asks me to take care of him is a tell. Then in the strangest turn of events, he told me he's been involved with a woman over the past year or so, that she's not up to his standards of beauty and therefore he can't possibly be interested in her but that they see each other almost every day and they have sex when "she manipulates him into it." He at turns said she's very supportive and validating of him but that that makes him not trust her. He also said he hates her. He said she's going to go to a college a couple hours from here and starts in January (she didn't go after graduation from HS). Just to see what he'd say, I suggested that he go with her and that maybe she could support him. He was instantly enthralled with the idea and basically couldn't get off the phone fast enough with me to explore this possibility with her. The rapidity with which he transferred his need of me to support him to another woman was sort of astounding, though also expected. He said that if she supported him, he would devote his life to her and cherish her more than anything. He said this about a woman he had just said he could never love, be sexually attracted to, or respect.

...He's still having sex with her. He's justifying it to you because he feels ashamed she is not beautiful. ?

...He was running concepts by you and through his own mind. He doesnt know what kind of woman will make him feel supported and needed yet. He is still going through what society expects for him.

...Same with whether he respects her or could love her. He doesnt know. He probably could and would devote his life to her.



So while this idea might solve some of my problems with him (at least for a period of time), I feel incredibly guilty about the possibility of pawning him off on some strange woman.

...You didn't pawn him off on some strange woman. He has been seeing her for a year and not even told you about her.

But she wants him to be her boyfriend more than anything in the world.

My daughter is married to a stiff, robotic man with Aspergers who is controlling, isolating, boring and has a giant stick up his b##t and no sense of humour at all, yet she has been with him for 25 years because he gives her life structure and a ton of money.

Who knows, this might be the perfect mating for him and for his needs and for her needs. Not for yours, sadly. But it might be the best outcome if you can maintain your distance from them both.

I know that sounds trite. I am sorry. I feel for you. The possibility of a child from such a union could create more heartache for you. I dont have answers to that.

Maybe practising acknowlegment with your responses, but not interest might be the best tactic for your wellbeing going forward now that you are in the loop regarding the relationship?

PS Somehow some of my answers came up in the excerpt part of the text.

[Flossy]

Last night he texted, "I love you and miss you."

Today he texted, "I'm losing even more weight."

I just feel so manipulated, but I'm standing my ground.

Is he losing weight because he was overweight?. That is a sign of contentment and happiness. If he gets happy, it is in your best interests as well. It's so hard to do but if you can practise bringing in the worst case scenario for his life to compare it to his current status, it might help you.
Not denying your moral and ethical standards but coming to terms with that not ever being a possibility for him to attain those.

I am disgusted when I think of how my daughter has changed with being surrounded by wealth and security, but I comfort myself when I remember her using drugs, working in nightclubs and moving from man to man.

She is safe. She has also now had 25 years of practising "behaving herself" so that if the marriage fails, she has a chance of leading a safe life. The same may apply for your son Leaf. He may achieve an education and with it some sense of purpose and safety in the world.

I hope so. For you. I feel it is very possible. This all feels good to me.

[Leaf56]

Flossy! Thanks for responding. I'll dig right in. First, it's best to clarify that he texted me that he's losing weight because he wants me to worry about him. Prior to this starting 2 years ago, he had what one would call a perfect male body, very sculpted, not an ounce of fat, very good looking. Since this started, he has lost muscle and weight. In his mind, the ONLY things he had to attract women were his looks, particularly his body, and his former "cool" professional pursuit. To clarify to me the nature of the relationship he has with this woman, he said that she has told him that she never thought she'd ever be able to date someone like him. There have been women like this around him before, and he has always just not gotten involved in any way. She's like a groupie. He "allows" her around him because he's desperate. He says that she manipulates him into having sex with him when he's very high. I think he does feel shame that he has had sex with her because she is not beautiful even though when I asked him if this is the case he said no.

He told me that the only reason he hadn't told me about her yet (because he has a tendency to tell me everything) is that he just never really thought it was important enough to mention. He said he worries that if she agrees to support him and if they are then in an actual acknowledged relationship that she will harm herself once he "fixes" himself and leaves. So I guess it's good that he's clear that he does not want to hurt her. He's not using her for sex because he doesn't want to have sex with her. I guess it's the opposite—that she's using him for sex and validation. He's using her for emotional support and validation, in lieu of me, but he'd rather it be me. I said he can't do that anymore and that he needs to transfer to an adult woman who is not me, that he needs to separate from me and stop idealizing me. So I feel guilty because by suggesting he transfer to this woman, it feels like I'm signing her death warrant. I feel like the responsible thing to do would be to not encourage him toward her, but the reality is that she's completely in love with him (obviously has her own major mental health issues and need to rescue). I've read on the romantic BPD message boards where people say, "How could you let this person loose on society" to the parents of their BPD lovers/spouses. I get it, but also—who am I to play god?

You said: "My daughter is married to a stiff, robotic man with Aspergers...yet she has been with him for 25 years because he gives her life structure and a ton of money."

If this were the case with my son, that this woman he's involved with was as you describe your D's husband, I would have zero qualms. But she's not. She's a basket case with little sense of self or structure, no real career type job, and probably "has" BPD herself, and so I worry about her in this situation, not him.

You said: "Who knows, this might be the perfect mating for him and for his needs and for her needs."

That's why I suggested he go with her.

You said: "Not for yours, sadly. But it might be the best outcome if you can maintain your distance from them both."

It suits my needs if he transfers to someone else. As I've said here many times, at this point I don't care if I never see him again as long as he is able to live out his life in some way that at least makes him a little happy and in which he is financially secure. I crave nothing more than to keep my distance.

You said: "The possibility of a child from such a union could create more heartache for you. I dont have answers to that."

Actually it wouldn't. I'm fine not having anything to do with that either. He has said many times, though, that he doesn't think he's capable of producing a child because he and his partners have often used no birth control and nothing has ever happened (this despite the fact that I drummed into all my boys early and often to ALWAYS use a condom). He says he absolutely does not want children and would encourage an abortion if pregnancy was ever to occur.

You said: "He may achieve...some sense of purpose and safety in the world. I hope so. For you. I feel it is very possible. This all feels good to me."

The only thing good about it is the possibility of him transferring to someone else. I so wish he were a woman or gay. Then, sadly, he could get exactly what he wants very easily. I wonder if the difference between *women with BPD/gay men with BPD* who are beautiful and those who are not is that the former get what they want, i.e., someone to take care of them, and the latter mostly don't. Someone should do a study of that.

His text message to me from 4:12 a.m. today: "I haven't slept. I need your love back in my life."

Translation: "I want you to support me, cuddle and coddle me, feed me, comfort me."

[Tulipps]

{{{Tulipps}}}} I just wanted to offer my very sincere support and say, “Good for you!”

Much appreciated. Truly.

[Tulipps]

No you haven't allowed it. You couldn't possibly have allowed it ...because
 you didn't know. "allowing" something requires full presentation of knowledge of something, acceptance and giving in to it.

Maybe change the wording from "I allowed" ...to "I had"...
- - -

Thanks, Flossy. You make a good point and you're right - I had no idea what I was really dealing with until a few years ago. That said, I'm responsible for letting my own life and finances get so out of hand. My priority has shifted to me because it has to.

Three strings of "baby" texts today that tried to pull me in. BF of 6 weeks broke up with her. She's sad "sobbbing on the floor" and needs her mom. I don't even have a reaction any more and didn't respond.  

[Leaf56]

My son texted me this yesterday: "I need you in my life on an emotional support level. My goal is to come home for Christmas."

I replied: "I AM in your life on an emotional support level. I can't say about Christmas. You haven't even been vaccinated like I asked you to be. You have got to stop being so dependent on me and others and stand on your own two feet. There's no magic to it, you just have to stop the clinging and dependency. You are asking too much of others. It's not sustainable."

Then he called, and I talked to him for too long. He reiterated how much he loves me (love bombing).

Today he texted this: "Can I send you a list of things I want for Christmas? Mostly stuff I need to treat [his supposed health condition]."

I replied: "No, and the fact that you sent this to me is very upsetting. Can you please back off for a while? I need to breathe."

He replied: "And I need [something for his supposed health condition that he wants me to buy]."

I said: "Do I need to block you?"

He said: "If it makes you happier."

I said: "Ok. Whatever this is is not healthy."

He said: "You're not helping to make it healthier."

And then I blocked him. So to me this is all blatant manipulation. It's so hard for me to believe that he's not aware of it.

[Swimmy55]

Respect. 

[Flossy]

Leaf

It is blatant manipulation. He is aware of it.

He is just surprised that the usual manipulation techniques are no longer working for him. I bet he smiled to himself when he said " If it makes you happier".

He is playing a game of cat and mouse hoping that Christmas time will make you see the little boy again and be nice to him. "Cos after all, he is cute. Right?

I know I am beginning to sound cynical but to me it's just the truth.

He seems to want to turn to you at night time. Maybe consider blocking him at 5PM every night and taking the block of the next morning at 9AM or whenever you feel you want to.

I refuse to be anyone's entertainment any more. I made a new friend earlier in the year who turned out to have BPD and she would text me anywhere form 2AM to 6AM, just for the hell of it. I blocked her permanently eventually. I didn't even explain, which is a whole new way of being for me.

If I ever see her and she asks why, she will be told "Because you don't behave yourself".

I need a T shirt with "Behave Yourself or I will Block You"

[Leaf56]

LOL, thanks as usual, lady. I couldn't bring myself to unblock him today. It was so much easier when he was calling me names and threatening violence. That's an easy and immediate block on my part. I don't even have to think about it. But this love manipulation stuff has me knocked off my axis. After I blocked him yesterday, he immediately texted his younger and completely competent and independent brother something like, "Why is our mother so f****** insane!" Younger bro called me instantly to ask what had happened. I told him, and he was incredulous that his brother had asked if he could text me his Christmas present list, expecting me to buy him the stuff. My constant feeling is that I want to just get in a car and drive far, far away.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Elizabeth22]

Leaf,

When I read your posts, I see a lot of content about your son's sex life.
Do you think it's too much?
Do you think it's how he gets you to cross an inappropriate boundary?
What do you think would happen if you refused to discuss it with him?

[Flossy]

My constant feeling is that I want to just get in a car and drive far, far away.

There is your answer. You want to get far, far away...from him and from his ability to find you.

More and more I am convinced that few people get to come into our home. It's a privilege. Mobile phones and texting has allowed people to have the ability to come into our homes at any time they damned want to.

I disagree with it totally. In our case, leaving a portal through our phone is the same as granting them the right to just walk through the front door without even using a key or a doorbell.

I think if you can do it without unbearable pain, start increasing the time that you block him. Then reverse the tactic by only unblocking his number on a certain day of the week. Then a certain date of the month.

You may feel it is more fair to inform him of these changes each time before they happen. You will know if that's necessary.

You may need to tell your other son to do something similar or if he cannot do that, have a discussion about triangulation and see if you can work out a way for him not to get into your home through your other son.

It's likely that he will escalate because he will panic. If he does that then you could tell him he will have no access for a month.

Keep yourself safe in case he decides to pay a visit to "explain" how upset he is.

It may be possible to eventually have his ability to contact you reduced to 3 or 4 dates per year.

It may turn out that you decide to go NC eventually. I totally understand and support that decision. Nobody has the right to drive someone close to feeling constant despair about their own life through no fault of their own.

[Leaf56]

Flossy, while you're still here, again, thank you! You and I both know I know this but that I just need to be told and given permission to craft a situation that works for me. I also totally agree about the portal into the home. I took myself off all social media two years ago and have benefited tremendously from it. I miss getting things like plumber recommendations and news about things like what's going on in my youngest son's school, but that loss is completely offset by the benefit. This situation has very quickly crystallized my life philosophy. I'll post this now, which will hopefully be before you go just because I always want to let you know how much I appreciate you.

[Leaf56]

Flossy, I want nothing more than to go NC, but the guilt keeps me in this half-in, half-out state. If he were anyone but my child, the door would have closed within the first few weeks (days?) of onset 2 years ago. I can't help but think that NC is ultimately the thing I will do and that all this hemming and hawing over whether to do it is merely postponing the inevitable. Scaling back the helping to just emotional support seemed to be bearing fruit, and maybe it still could, though at this moment that seems less likely. And I've learned that my tolerance for any nonsense whatsoever is slim to none. I guess the decision is whether to be in the purgatory with him, or enter a different type of purgatory without him.

[Leaf56]

Hey Elizabeth,
You said: "When I read your posts, I see a lot of content about your son's sex life. Do you think it's too much? Do you think it's how he gets you to cross an inappropriate boundary? What do you think would happen if you refused to discuss it with him?"

I've always been very open but appropriate with my three sons about sex in an attempt to supplant their main source of information these days—readily available and free Internet porn—I'm certainly no Barbra Streisand in Meet the Fockers. My son made the revelation to me two years ago that the only reason he does anything at all is in furtherance of his goal to have sex with desirable (to him) women and that this is the absolute root, bar none, of his problem. To ignore that or behave in a way that makes him uncomfortable to talk about that (he doesn't go into further detail, just makes that statement and then we use shorthand language to refer to it in discussion) would be a disservice to him. I don't think it's inappropriate because it's discussed in the same way as if he'd said his motivation for doing everything he does is to prove to the kids from his high school that he's a star, or something like that. I think it's very important to know what motivates you because if that motivation is unhealthy—like both doing it for women or proving you're special are—then the earlier you recognize it and start disassembling it, the faster you can jettison it. He's actually made quite a bit of progress on it. Do I wish he was doing the work he's doing with a therapist? Yes. Am I uncomfortable discussing it? No. Do I think he's intentionally trying to get me to "cross a boundary"? No.

[Flossy]

Flossy, I want nothing more than to go NC, but the guilt keeps me in this half-in, half-out state.

I think that the more you continue with your present management, he will lose interest in you as his main source of validation and then escalate his anger at you. The minute he targets another human as his main source you are done. Naturally that will result in NC with no guilt. It seems like the natural scheme of things. I know you know all of this and I do know it helps to read someone else say the thoughts to you. Sometimes I am too tired to write the extra's. I know you will excuse me and that is comforting. xxx

[Leaf56]

It definitely helps to hear someone say the words to me. Thanks so much for doing it. I appreciate it so much!

[Leaf56]

I was reading in the archives and saw some great posts by someone who used to post here. I won't give the name because having not been here in so long I assume they'd rather not be revivified, but I think it's ok to post selections. Here are my favorites:

"In my experience, the worst thing you can do is rush in and attempt to fix everything for your person with BPD. It's like trying to fill a black hole, and you just can't do it without jumping in and drowning alongside them...It took a while and his raging got worse but you know what? When faced with a rapidly reducing income and a flat refusal from us to subsidize his drug use, car crashes/fixes etc etc he worked it out. He now has 2 jobs and is never overdrawn. He worked out that he'd rather do something than be homeless and that if he kept expecting us to jump at every whim and drama we weren't going to come. Sometimes my husband and I literally had to hold hands and stop ourselves from jumping in to fix each crisis...But it worked. We don't have a relationship with him, and he tells everyone we are monsters, which gets him loads of sympathy, while we get to live thousands of miles away and are HAPPY. Please take those first tiny steps back from him and start saving yourselves first."

"It was amazing what my son accomplished when we stopped jumping in to fix everything. He doesn't even go overdrawn now because he knows we won't give him a dime. Stick to your guns."

"The first six months my BPD son raged and screamed and texted us all the time and we just kept saying No, No. He had to work out how to pay his bills, fix his car without us handing him cash. He had to stop abusing medication and smoking weed if he wanted to eat. Guess what? he did it. He apparently is working 2-3 jobs now and never goes overdrawn. He's also stopped asking for money as we are apparently 'dead to him' now. Which is okay."

"I haven't seen my 24 year old BPD son in person for over 3 years or spoken to him. The last direct email conversation I had with him was about a year and a half ago? I'm not even sure. Making the decision to go no contact with him nearly broke me, but 3 years in? I think it was the best decision for all of us and saved the rest of my family from the terrible harm he was doing to all of us. And after all his raging and screaming he's ended up getting 2 jobs, is off our payroll and doesn't go overdrawn or ask us for money. I'm okay with this, I'm at peace with it."

"My eldest son will not speak to or acknowledge his sibling with BPD, and you know what? I totally understand why, and to me when we discussed his reasons it was equally important to validate his choice to do that as a 25 year old adult. My youngest son totally validates his BPD sibling to the extent of cutting eldest sibling and us out as well. There is no 'everyone has to like each other' scenario with this disorder. It hurts us all and in the end."

[Leaf56]

Skip, who I gather is a retired site manager here, posted what looks like an excerpt from a work by Gunderson back in 2007, starting with the second post on this thread with the title "The 3 Levels of Emotions found in Borderline Personality." There are several places within the excerpt that are incoherent, I'm guessing due to missing text, but it is otherwise a very accurate description of my experience with my son's borderline behavior as his major object:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=70884.msg579565#msg579565