The less I do and the more I pull away, the better things get.- Part 2

[Leaf56]

Something another poster said on that old object constancy thread got me thinking more. I think the poster was quoting Mahler here:

"[object constancy is] the capacity to value an object for attributes other than its function of satisfying needs."

And then the poster added this interpretation: "And this one speaks volumes. To me it says that pwBPD, who *lack* object constancy, are unable to value (or love) an object (us) when they find that we no longer function to satisfy their needs. This is to say, they only love us so long as they need us. And when they do not need us, they find that they are unable to love us."

I'm not sure yet if this is what will happen with my son, but based on things he's said, I DO think he's confusing his need of me with love. Although as soon as I typed that I thought, "How would I define love? And how does love for a child differ from love for a parent?" Maybe love for a parent is just need-based anyway. But if that's the case, why can most children no longer need their parents but still love them dearly? Ach, I'm confused!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Flossy]

Something another poster said on that old object constancy thread got me thinking more. I think the poster was quoting Mahler here:

"[object constancy is] the capacity to value an object for attributes other than its function of satisfying needs."

And then the poster added this interpretation: "And this one speaks volumes. To me it says that pwBPD, who *lack* object constancy, are unable to value (or love) an object (us) when they find that we no longer function to satisfy their needs. This is to say, they only love us so long as they need us. And when they do not need us, they find that they are unable to love us."

I'm not sure yet if this is what will happen with my son, but based on things he's said, I DO think he's confusing his need of me with love. Although as soon as I typed that I thought, "How would I define love? And how does love for a child differ from love for a parent?" Maybe love for a parent is just need-based anyway. But if that's the case, why can most children no longer need their parents but still love them dearly? Ach, I'm confused!

I said this years ago. Pretty sure I said it on here as well. They confuse "need" with "love" and when they don't need you they no longer love you.
The only way they will reverse their demonisation of us is when they need us again for some reason. In my case, that would only be if my daughter lost her in-laws and/or needed replacement grandparents for her son.

As far as your last question goes...Maybe love for a parent is just need-based anyway. But if that's the case, why can most children no longer need their parents but still love them dearly?

...Because most children have developed an attachment to their parents by the time they no longer need them. Those on the Psychopathic spectrum (which I believe pwBPD are) don't develop attachment to anyone. Nor any living being.

I would love to find if anyone has done studies of children who have killed one or both of their parents. It would be interesting to see if they meet the criteria for BPD and/or Psychopathy.

[Flossy]

PS I am not saying that pwBPD are likely to kill their parents. I doubt that is a risk. But, I do think some who show extreme rages are capable of it.

[Leaf56]

Hey Flossy. You said: "I said this years ago. Pretty sure I said it on here as well. They confuse "need" with "love" and when they don't need you they no longer love you."

Maybe it was you. Did you used to post under another name here?

You said: "The only way they will reverse their demonisation of us is when they need us again for some reason. In my case, that would only be if my daughter lost her in-laws and/or needed replacement grandparents for her son."

I believe 100% that she would contact you the moment that occurred.

You answered my question of: "Maybe love for a parent is just need-based anyway. But if that's the case, why can most children no longer need their parents but still love them dearly?"

With: "Because most children have developed an attachment to their parents by the time they no longer need them."

But I wonder if that's it because my son is, I think, overly attached to me. I've run the possibility that he's insecurely attached to me through my brain, too, and I don't discount the possibility of it, but I'm positive, due to the complete intentionality of building a secure attachment on my part, that if that's the case that he was born that way. I wonder whether the almost scientific way in which I set about building attachment from his infancy might've circumvented the demonization of me later, and that had I not gone to such great lengths that I'd be in the same boat as others here instead of the somewhat atypical boat I find myself floating along in. I'm not saying my boat is better AT ALL, just to be clear.

But putting that aside for the moment, other than attachment, I find myself pondering the nature of love for a parent as distinct from love for a child or romantic partner or friend.

You said: "I would love to find if anyone has done studies of children who have killed one or both of their parents. It would be interesting to see if they meet the criteria for BPD and/or Psychopathy. PS I am not saying that pwBPD are likely to kill their parents. I doubt that is a risk. But, I do think some who show extreme rages are capable of it."

So, due to the nature of my son's onset of whatever this is that is happening with him, I have found myself thinking about little else than your above statement for two solid years. I've read countless things about serial killers (because he claimed he thought he was one), I've read multiple studies on matricide and patricide (because he hinted that this might also be the way he was thinking), I've talked to several psychologists, and had my son sit for a 10-hour evaluation by a forensic psychologist (nothing of note to report other than slight autistic traits and major depression). My son now says that he made it all up to bother me, and that none of it was true. But I know that's not right. There are far too many logical inconsistencies in the account to allow for it all to have been fake. My theory is that he's been repressing his rage for me for so long that when it finally broke through in such fantastic fashion and was met with such a total shutdown by me (I refused to deal with him when he behaved that way), the only way he could eventually save face was to disavow it. And I think he believes the lies he tells himself and me about it not having been real because to acknowledge that it's real is far too overwhelming. I think he is one extraordinarily complicated dude. As I've said elsewhere on this forum, even his highly acclaimed and prominent NYC psychiatrist did not know what was wrong with him. The intricacy of it all and the way he presents to everyone who meets him reminds me way too much of Ted Bundy. My son is good looking and comes across to most everyone as shy, sweet, intelligent, talented, and personable—the kind of guy who would never hurt a fly, just like Bundy. In fact, their manners were/are very similar. It was in the ER of his first hospitalization in December 2019 that he first exhibited the extreme rage. It was so shocking because it was so completely out of character. He simply became a completely different person in an instant. I've never seen anything like it, but it was very similar to descriptions of Bundy when what he called the darkness took over. Over the next 6 months, he sent many outrageous texts (I've included one below) and spent several hours one night explaining to me how he was pretty sure he was a serial killer in the making. That, combined with his bizarre red pill thoughts about women, and I became convinced that all of it was real. But because he is so mild-mannered (Brian Laundrie also comes to mind), no one else related to him took me seriously, even after I showed them texts like these.
 
******Trigger warning. If you're sensitive to rage, don't read on:******

"I hate you so goddamn much, and I hate life and everything in it and just want to see people suffer as I suffer. I want to cause mass suffering throughout the world and show people why they should want to kill themselves and that life is s***. S*** s*** f*** you for giving birth to me. I can’t deny this is all I want. I’m pure evil and I want to end it all for the greater good of my own feelings and that of others. I’m going to hurt people some day, so I’d rather just eliminate myself. Nothing can change my mind. I’m going to prove it to you. It’s my life’s goal to show you I’m incurable and will forever be begging for an easy death from the world. And if I can’t kill myself I’m going to make your lives horrible by you forever having to deal with me and sink down your life force till we all rot. I will be a negative force of energy in this world. It’s my decision. You can’t f***ing make me some good person or piece of s*** or whatever the f*** that is. F*** everything you’ve ever done for me you piece of s***. Love is a fickle emotion only pieces of s*** feel. Kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me. Life is horrible. Humans are animals and I can’t wait for my death. I wanna get the f*** out of here. I’m not meant to be alive, I’m just meant to be dead and so is everyone else. Everyone should die. Every last one of us. I need to find a partner to join me in my hate, and together we can kill each other. I might hate you more than I hate myself. You’re a s*** parent, a s*** person, and just overall an incredibly unpleasant piece of s*** to be around. If I could kill a lot of people I guess you’re right, I would. I just don’t want to deal with the consequences cause I’m a coward. But the feelings and urges are all too real, and I can’t just live idly in this world. It causes personal suffering which cannot be explained, and I have to do something about it. You would do the same if you felt the same way. I don’t care about anyone in my life enough to feel bad about killing myself. In the end you’re all pieces of s*** that deserve death. F*** you for giving birth to me. F*** you for raising me. F*** you for thinking there is joy in this world. F*** you for tricking me into having stayed alive the past 10 years. I should have killed myself when I was 15 when my unbearable suffering began. F*** you f*** you f*** you f*** you f*** you f*** you. I’ve never hated a single woman more than I hate and loathe your existence. F***ing rot. I’m gonna make you regret you ever had kids. You created a truly evil person, and I will never stop showing you my hatred as long as you live. My goal is to make your life h*** since simply living for me is the biggest h*** ever. Suffer you b****. I’ve been brainwashed since I was a child by everything you ever showed me, making me think I’d be happy helping people, but no I’m not happy helping anyone. I want to see them suffer and scream and die in front of my eyes. I want to see others killing each other and tearing people apart while I watch from above and let it happen. I want to cause a mass suffering.
Maybe I should become a neo-Nazi. I’ve decided I am one. I want to make sure you’re never happy because you gave birth to me, and that’s enough for me to forever scorn and loathe your existence you b***h. Every time you think of me just hear my voice saying “f*** you b****” to you cause that’s how I always feel about you, you eyesore. Just drop dead. F*** you, f*** you, f*** you, f*** you, f*** you, f*** you, f*** you. Die."

He agreed to talk to a psychiatrist after I got this particular text, and that doctor, who had not met him but to whom I sent the texts, sent the police to his dad's house to take him to the hospital for the second time (this was July of 2020), and I didn't have contact with him for 5 months afterward. So, all that, and much more from a gentle, loving young man who had not once ever shown any anger or disrespect toward me or anyone that I know of at all because, in his own words, he loved me so much and I was the most wonderful mother ever, etc. etc. (again, I've always been highly uncomfortable with his over-the-top love for me). When we reestablished contact, he was back to love, love, loving me and hasn't stopped. I'm reminded of how much Bundy loved his mother and how she sickeningly stood by him even after the evidence against him was incontrivertible. And the psychiatrist who worked with Bundy in the prison later recanted the diagnosis she'd given him at first and replaced it with BPD. So yes, I've given all of this soo much thought. But now my son says it's all good, never was a thing, and that he just said those things because he was really angry at me for not buying him something he never even asked me for in the first place that he needed for his profession. Thoughts?

[Leaf56]

Hi all! There have been over 1,000 views of this thread in 20 days but only a handful of posters. Please, please take some time to post on it. It would really help me to hear from people. You don't have to respond to everything or anything in particular. You don't have to post a long history of your particular situation with your kid, or introduce yourself, or anything. I just want to hear what you have to say, even if it's only a sentence. Thanks in advance!

[Flossy]

Leaf is right. Come on guys. If a thread is good enough to read, please do the OP the courtesy of leaving a thought or at least a comment saying that you read it.

It is a difficult thread to be a part of and not at all easy to write in with open and honest thoughts. The people who have found the courage to share their most personal, painful thoughts about their child are brave and could do with the support of those who read the thread, even if you don't agree with the thoughts or are not there yet.

[Flossy]

Hey Flossy. You said: "I said this years ago. Pretty sure I said it on here as well. They confuse "need" with "love" and when they don't need you they no longer love you."

Maybe it was you. Did you used to post under another name here?[/b][/b][/b]

...Yes I did post on here under another name, which I cannot remember or it could be that I couldn't log back in and had to make a new Username. Who knows, I dont try to make my brain remember things any more. I know I did make a new Username. It would not have been me who posted that as I rarely include quotes of experts.


Quote:
But I wonder if that's it because my son is, I think, overly attached to me. I've run the possibility that he's insecurely attached to me through my brain, too, and I don't discount the possibility of it, but I'm positive, due to the complete intentionality of building a secure attachment on my part, that if that's the case that he was born that way.
...I think my use of the word 'attachment" is more the same kind of use that Psychologists use. In layman's terms, neurotypical children who become adults are attached to their parents because they got to know them well. Their needs and their personality traits. They then developed from that a liking for them, a fondness, a desire to meet those needs and consider their traits when interacting with them. Basically, caring about them.

In pwBPD I think this is what is missing. Same as in a Psychopath. I think your son sees you as a thing. An object. For his use. He is attached to you because he can make use of you. In the past at least.

Your feelings about his attachment to you and his Overly loving attention to you tells me that he was born like this. A mother does not get a creepy feeling about their child because of their imagination. That sensation would have to be based on reality.

I wonder what happened at 15. Did he do a lot of marijuana or mushrooms? His text is horrific. He truly sounds like a Psychopath. I used to work in Psych Wards and saw many young men develop Schizophrenia from regular marijuana use. But he definitely shows BPD as well. To the extreme.

Perhaps his BPD is so extreme he is simply at the end of the Spectrum that makes him a Psychopath.

Regardless, I think he is very dangerous and I encourage you to keep yourself safe when at home where he knows you live. I also strongly encourage you to reverse manipulate him as much as you are able to in any communication that involves him becoming escalated.

Regardless so what you know to be the universal truth, he cannot be told the truth. It could/will tip him over the edge and cause him to target you with extreme violence.

I cannot remember if he has ever had a diagnosis of Schizophrenia. Please excuse my memory.

[khibomsis]

Hey Leaf and Flossy, I heard your plea. Just wanted to say I have followed this post from beginning, haven't contributed becuase I felt I had nothing to add. My situation is very different, my niece was diagnosed with BPD at 15. At the time she was in my care, when she started dysregulating  I took her straight to my therapist and got a diagnosis, put her in a three week residential program. I called her parents and told them to come get her when she got out. I had  found out she was abusing prescription drugs and one thing I do not do, even in my worst co-dependent days, is drugs.
She is doing great these days, therapy, hard work on her side, family support, and may I say firm boundaries from me. Finished high school and is in college. We are even talking about her coming to visit me again.
As you can see the situation is not the same, I was able to force her parents to step up which was what she really needed. An aunt could not fill the hole of how her parents had emotionally abandoned her and the crisis pushed them to try to be more present (I am firmly convinced her dad is uBPD and her mom just plain crazy ). They never quite made it to family therapy but slowly things are changing. Because I changed.  That upset the family schema and forced everyone to change and grow.
I read your posts and I respect you for your willingness to go deep.
 

[love never fails]

Sorry, I am one of those who have been following the thread, but have nothing to add since I am not there, YET.  I read postings on this website almost daily trying to somehow find answers.  I am not sure I have found a lot of answers, but it helps me gain perspective that this is not going away and I need to figure out how to approach it long term.

Our daughter was diagnosed with bpd, but now they have decided she has bipolar.  Maybe she has both.  She is 18 and a senior in high school.  We have been dealing with her behaviors for what feels like her whole life.  I am pretty much at the end of my rope and can't cope with her living here long term.  I feel like a horrible person to think that way, but our marriage and our physical and mental health are all suffering.  It feels like she is drowning and taking us down with her.

Thank you for all the brave folks who share your experiences and insights.  It is very helpful for those of us who are not as far along on the path as you are.
 

[Leaf56]

Thank you so much for participating, khimbomsis and love never fails! I really appreciate it. You don't have to be not helping your adult child or even have an adult child to participate on this thread. What I would love to hear from people is (a) what is it about this thread that has you reading and (b) what thoughts spark in your brain when you read what's here, like those tiny germs of thoughts that you don't think are worth posting about, sneaking suspicions about your child or observations of your child or feelings about your child. Stuff you'd never admit to feeling/thinking to anyone who knows you. It's those nuggets that really get my own brain going when I read them, even when they're buried in really long posts, and by the way I read every new post on this board, but I refrain from commenting on other threads because I fear that my abrupt posting style might not be the best response for everyone, so as I've said upthread, if you want to interact with me, please do it here. I so do not want to offend people. There used to be so many people here 10-15 years ago and so many of them were amazingly insightful, and I love to dig through the archives for wisdom, but there's nothing like interacting with real-time people. It absolutely makes me think harder and better.

[Leaf56]

Flossy, to answer your question "I wonder what happened at 15. Did he do a lot of marijuana or mushrooms?"

He didn't drink any alcohol until he was about 19, but he didn't like it so he doesn't drink. When he was about 22-23, he smoked marijuana for the first time and fell instantly in love with it. It definitely has played a very large part in all of this because one can't ignore the fact that soon after he started smoking, the behavior changed dramatically and sustainedly. He says that many of the angry thoughts existed prior to his smoking though, so perhaps the drug merely loosed the monster on the world. He was a very hard-to-soothe child with a hair-trigger (zero-to-sixty) dysregulation reflex up until he was around 10-12 years of age. He was the definition of "The Sensitive Child" and had extreme reactions to loud noise, taste, itchy touch (not human touch), and lots of other things. When he was 24, he told me he did many (he says around 12) acid trips (using what he called "the best acid available") in an attempt to rewire his brain to overcome his depression and anger. After the first few, he called me to apologize for all the anger and craziness in those texts and otherwise, so I guess maybe it helped, but it also predisposed him to thinking he now has all the answers to the universe, not in an overtly psychotic way though.

Age 15 was the onset of the depression and also extreme self-consciousness where none had previously existed. He had always been unable to handle competition throughout his life, yet he chose a pursuit that was highly competitive. Because he was so naturally good at it and usually "won" or was at least "one of the best," he was doing okay with the competition and it seemed to be helping his self-esteem and peer relations. But then at 15, he lost at something competitive regarding it, and he says that that was the catalyst for the first major depressive episode with major suicidal ideation. I've always believed it was that he liked a certain girl, and the fact that he failed the competition meant he couldn't participate in an out-of-town event that she would be at and then he found out she didn't like him in "that way" anyway. As I've said, he tells me now that all that ever mattered to him since he was around 10 was whether girls liked him and would be physical with him. Since that time, his default is suicidal ideation. I don't think there's ever been a time when it was far from his mind.

You said: "His text is horrific."

I agree. And I wonder about texts that other people here have referred to that they've received from their children with BPD. Are they as bad as my son's? Or is this just par for the course? Is this as unusual as I believe it to be, or is it just commonplace with BPD? If there's one thing I'd love for readers of this thread out there to weigh in on it's this particular question: Are the horrible texts you receive from your children as bad as the one I posted above or is this truly unusual? If it's just run-of-the-mill, that would be somewhat reassuring, at least concerning my and other people's safety. If it's not, believe me, I want and need to know.

You said: "He truly sounds like a psychopath."

I agree.

You said: "I used to work in Psych Wards and saw many young men develop Schizophrenia from regular marijuana use."

Yes, and I've known about the fact that marijuana use can bring on schizophrenia from long before I had children, which is one of the reasons why I wanted to keep my sons away from it, at least until they were in their 20s, because studies have shown that if you can get them beyond age 18, the effects are not nearly as great or long-lasting.

You said: "But he definitely shows BPD as well. To the extreme."

So, if you went and read that post by Skip of an excerpt by John Gunderson that I linked to above (and I noticed that more than 50 people did, since I noted the page views on it before and after), the one about object constancy that I said contained a description of The 3 Levels of Emotions found in Borderline Personality, you'll see that my son actually corresponds to it perfectly. I'll cut and paste some of it here:

LEVEL I

When a major object [in my son's case, the "major object" is me] is present and supportive, the depressive, bored, and lonely features predominate. Here the borderline person is at the first and best level of function. It is characterized by considerable conscious longing for closer attachment but considerable passivity and failure to initiate greater sharing within the context of the relationships. There is a capacity here to reflect on past failures and to identify conflicts and resistances realistically. There remains, however, considerable concern about the object's fragility and concurrent fears of being controlled by becoming dependent. As Kernberg (1975) has pointed out, such concerns reflect fears of projected hostility, the wary expectation of being controlled can be used as an active attempt to gain control over others. The result is that a dysphoric stalemate exists in relationships, which is periodically disrupted by regressive efforts to provoke reassurance from the other or by progressive initiatives to acknowledge what they want and feel they need from that person more fully. Two major organizing and sustaining beliefs are "Should I want more from you, or should I be angry with you, you will leave" and "If I'm more compliant, something will be given to me that will make me invulnerable and less destructive." The nature of this "something" is generally not well defined. Behind these conscious beliefs are concerns with the destructiveness of their own aggressive wishes and wishes to find a powerful protector. In any event, the basic tension between wanting more from the object and fearing that less will be received accounts for the sustained dysphoria characteristic of borderline functioning at this level.

LEVEL II

When a major object [again, the "major object" here is me] is frustrating to borderline persons or when the specter of their loss is raised, a second level of psychological functioning and a different constellation of clinical phenomena are evident. The angry, devaluative, and manipulative features predominate. Although the affective tone of anger is pervasive, it is only occasionally expressed as open rage. More frequently, it takes a modified form such as biting sarcasm, belligerent argumentativeness, or extreme demands. The anger is modified to alleviate fears of losing the object (in reality as well as its mental representation), while it still communicates the wish to maintain a hold on the person. Failing this, the patient can attempt to deny the fear of loss by dismissing the felt need for the object (i.e., devaluation) or attempt to prevent loss by dramatizing the object need. Manipulative suicidal gestures are frequent under these circumstances. At its extreme, when there is danger of the anger becoming too uncontrolled, the rage gets projected onto the object and paranoid accusations occur. All of these reactions are best understood as efforts, often conscious, to control or coerce the object into staying. These issues - to feel the need for a reliably available other and to feel able to control that person - have not changed from the higher level. Rather it is the repertoire of defenses and their behavioral expression that undergo regression and are most specific to the borderline patient. These reactions continue as long as the object is still perceived as accessible or retainable. The disabling effects of anticipated loss can frequently be seen as the patient struggles to find some acceptable expression of its attendant affects. This can take the form of rather elaborate and poorly connected affective states - giggling, bland dismissals, sudden rages, and, of course, extreme lability. The distinctive feature is the dissembled unsustained quality of the affects.

LEVEL III

When a borderline person feels an absence or lack of any major object [again, me or could be any "me" replacement], then a third level of psychological function becomes predominant. The phenomena during such periods include the occurrence of brief psychotic episodes, panic states, or impulsive efforts to avoid such panic. These phenomena each represent efforts to ward off the subjective experience of aloneness (Adler and Buie 1979a) and, I would add, total badness. Under ordinary circumstances, this aspect of the borderline around - even if without any evident emotional contact, in using radio and television as hypnotics, or in heavy reliance on transitional objects (Arkema 1981; Morris et. al. 1984). Under the more extreme circumstances when there has been a loss of a specific and essential object relationship, dangerous impulsive acts occur that most commonly consist of taking drugs or alcohol. These serve both to numb the panic and to initiate social contacts. Fights and promiscuity occur under these circumstances - often assisted by the disinhibiting influence of alcohol - and reflect desperate efforts to establish contact with and to revive the illusion of control over some new object. A second major type of reaction against the experience of aloneness is a prolonged dissociative episode of either the depersonalization or derealization types. These detach the borderline person from either the reality of bodily distress or the reality of the environmental situation that evokes that intolerable distress. During dissociative episodes, nihilistic fears occur ("am I dead, has my body dissolved"), and these may give rise to self-mutilation in order to confirm being alive by feeling pain. Frequently, such self-mutilation is accompanied by restitutive fantasies in which the absent object is either believed to be performing the act or is being punished by the act, but in either event, is still involved. These self-mutilative actions are quite different in their intent and subjective experience from the suicidal gestures that occur when ongoing contact with a specific object is still being sought. Sometimes nihilistic ideas slip from dystonic fears to become beliefs; they then take on aspects of psychotic depressions. The conviction of being evil and nihilistic beliefs are two extremes that the borderline patient achieves when the usual defenses of action and substitutive objects are not that Kernberg (1967) refers to the borderline's very primitive underlying, generally avoided, abandonment depression as central to his formulations. Perhaps because of the amount of interpersonal involvement and the borderline person's dramatic responsivity to such involvement, sustained depressions of psychotic proportions are unusual in borderline patients, particularly for those who are in treatment settings. Occasionally, bizarre imagery, simple hallucinatory phenomena, or transient somatic delusions occur. The object restitutive aspect patient who developed the belief she was pregnant, or the patient who developed anal and urethral retentiveness requiring emergency room care). The most common delusional experience is ideas of reference. Not only do these project unacceptable self-judgments, they sustain a sense of involvement with nonspecific others where none exists. The general point here is function (desperate impulsivity, substance abuse, dissociative episodes, brief psychotic episodes, and ideas of reference) represent efforts to manage the fear of aloneness and the sense of badness. This badness is related to beliefs that they have failed or wronged their object. These experiences of alone-badness and the panicky reactions to it are seldom seen within the hospital or psychotherapeutic context. As described subsequently (Chapter 7) they do, however, often come to the attention of clinicians as a reason for seeking treatment or as phenomena described retrospectively by borderline patients. Understanding the context in which they occur is important so that their recurrence can be anticipated and avoided. [This is the end of the excerpt.]

[This is me again] I know it's possibly a bit complicated to get through the above, but it very clearly delineates the levels that my son has been in since this started 2 years ago, and I believe Level III perfectly describes what had been going on in his acute stage: "brief psychotic episodes, panic states, or impulsive efforts to avoid such panic," "using radio and television as hypnotics," "heavy reliance on transitional objects [the not-me substitutes]," "sustained depressions of psychotic proportions," "taking drugs or alcohol both to numb the panic and to initiate social contacts," "fights and promiscuity in a desperate effort to establish contact with and to revive the illusion of control over some new object," and "prolonged dissociative episodes." All of this applies to my son. And I believe that the following quote describes how you tell it's BPD and not schizophrenia or another schizoaffective disorder: "These experiences of alone-badness and the panicky reactions to it are seldom seen within the hospital or psychotherapeutic context."

So, as I've said before, you can't decide when you're going to be schizophrenic. When my son enters a hospital, he instantly becomes 100% sane, with absolutely zero symptoms. He can explain everything away to the satisfaction of all highly trained clinicians. He can also do the same with his dad, his brother, and his friends, and he tries to do it with me, but I won't let him. Also, he has never had an auditory or visual hallucination. So no, he has never been diagnosed with schizophrenia. For a while there this past spring, I thought he might be in the prodrome, but since then he's been mostly Level I and II with very little if any Level III to my knowledge. Otherwise he fulfills every BPD criteria. He has received no diagnoses because so far no one has been able to diagnose him.

You said: "Perhaps his BPD is so extreme he is simply at the end of the Spectrum that makes him a Psychopath."

This is my fear.

You said: "Regardless, I think he is very dangerous and I encourage you to keep yourself safe when at home where he knows you live."

We keep our security system on 100% of the time.

You said: "I also strongly encourage you to reverse manipulate him as much as you are able to in any communication that involves him becoming escalated. Regardless so what you know to be the universal truth, he cannot be told the truth. It could/will tip him over the edge and cause him to target you with extreme violence."

I do this and know exactly what you're talking about.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Flossy]

So, as I've said before, you can't decide when you're going to be schizophrenic. When my son enters a hospital, he instantly becomes 100% sane, with absolutely zero symptoms. He can explain everything away to the satisfaction of all highly trained clinicians. He can also do the same with his dad, his brother, and his friends, and he tries to do it with me, but I won't let him. Also, he has never had an auditory or visual hallucination. So no, he has never been diagnosed with schizophrenia. For a while there this past spring, I thought he might be in the prodrome, but since then he's been mostly Level I and II with very little if any Level III to my knowledge. Otherwise he fulfills every BPD criteria. He has received no diagnoses because so far no one has been able to diagnose him.

You said: "Perhaps his BPD is so extreme he is simply at the end of the Spectrum that makes him a Psychopath."

This is my fear.

You said: "Regardless, I think he is very dangerous and I encourage you to keep yourself safe when at home where he knows you live."

We keep our security system on 100% of the time.

You said: "I also strongly encourage you to reverse manipulate him as much as you are able to in any communication that involves him becoming escalated. Regardless so what you know to be the universal truth, he cannot be told the truth. It could/will tip him over the edge and cause him to target you with extreme violence."

I do this and know exactly what you're talking about.

Hi Leaf
The first paragraph quoted here defines it to an exact description. He is not Schizophrenic but BPD to the extreme. Your observations here are perfect. I would be taking these paragraphs and making up a document for future sharing with medical/legal authorities if necessary. They are precise and clinically based. They represent what it would take years to discover by any professional.

In your position I would live "as though". Live as though he is a Psychopath and reverse manipulate so that you never let him know what you think. It's horrendous, but it will also allow you to detach further and further from him emotionally and that is necessary. We don't know how he will present in ten years from now. He may find enough validation and detachment from his extreme thinking to present as much less Psychopathic. Especially if he attaches to a female who wants him as a life project and partner.

So what I am saying Leaf is that making a habit of thinking of him in the extreme is not going to damage you. It will keep you safer. It will also organically allow him to move to someone else. I believe that these things happen by some kind of universal settling. I don't have the words at the moment to explain it better.

I don't feel you need to share those thoughts with your other son due to fear of his safety as he would not ever be a target. I think he is safe. The main thing to focus on is that he is not allowed to be used as a Flying Monkey for this son to get to you. It seems as though that is not a huge problem at present, so that is good.

I guess I am also saying that I think BPD has a sliding scale. If he is on the end of Psychopath now, I don't believe he will always be. I truly don't.
Once his needs are met by someone else, he will no longer be a danger to you.

He may try to re-establish contact with you to show "how much better" he is. In my experience with my BPD niece this never has a satisfactory outcome as the thinking and behaviour remains just as disordered even if less extreme.

For me, I cannot tolerate pwBPD at all not even for an hour in their company. I can barely resist the urge to say to the simplest statement of their thinking "O For F Sake, grow up". No tolerance at all and that would not be good for anyone, including me.

[Leaf56]

Flossy, thank you so much for the time you take to talk to me. I so appreciate it.

You said: "We don't know how he will present in ten years from now. He may find enough validation and detachment from his extreme thinking to present as much less Psychopathic. Especially if he attaches to a female who wants him as a life project and partner."

Yes, I agree, though I do feel a lot of guilt toward that hypothetical future woman. I also feel fear, since 3 years ago, even before the tsunami-like onset of outwardly expressed symptoms in December of 2019, he one night expressed very specific musings of killing a woman who did not reciprocate his interest. He is often consumed by jealousy and envy. I've discussed my fears with the various mental health professionals he's used over the past 2 years, and they've basically just said, "You can't lock people up for their thoughts" (which obviously I agree with, but which also seems so, so dangerous), but they've also reassured me that many people think evil thoughts and most never act on them. Their words don't help much as I just can't shake the feeling that something very bad is going to happen some day.

You said: "So what I am saying Leaf is that making a habit of thinking of him in the extreme is not going to damage you. It will keep you safer."

I already DO think of him in the extreme. I can't not. I've tried not to, but I've been unsuccessful.

You said: "It will also organically allow him to move to someone else. I believe that these things happen by some kind of universal settling. I don't have the words at the moment to explain it better."

You don't need them. I know exactly what you're talking about.

You said: "I don't feel you need to share those thoughts with your other son due to fear of his safety as he would not ever be a target. I think he is safe."

Unfortunately, this is not true. He (middle son) is definitely a target, and I have warned him not to have BPD son stay with him (in a state that's far away) because I'm afraid BPD son will kill him. I worry about youngest son, too.

You said: "The main thing to focus on is that he is not allowed to be used as a Flying Monkey for this son to get to you. It seems as though that is not a huge problem at present, so that is good."

Yeah, he goes to middle son, but middle son has never come to me about it until the latest episode. I think it's because middle son is finally starting to take me seriously after the events at their grandfather's funeral.

You said: "I guess I am also saying that I think BPD has a sliding scale."

Definitely. My sister is toward the other end of the scale, but now that she's in her 60s these behaviors are mostly just annoyances to those who are in her life—constant suicidal ideation and threats, drugs and alcohol during youth, teenaged rebelliousness, massive promiscuity (she was very pretty), blaming everything on our mother (not that she was perfect, but her parenting did not cause this), me, her husband, or anyone else available, unable to keep friends, need to leave jobs due to bad relationships. I think probably similar to your daughter except for the fact that my sister has an MBA and has been quite successful in her career and doesn't need her husband's money, but she does not treat him in a way I'm comfortable with. But he's successful too and can leave if he wants. I'm amazed that he hasn't.

You said: "If he is on the end of Psychopath now, I don't believe he will always be. I truly don't.
Once his needs are met by someone else, he will no longer be a danger to you."

I'm not so sure about this. And what happens to that woman when she's had enough and wants to leave? Gabby Petito comes to mind.

You said: "He may try to re-establish contact with you to show "how much better" he is. In my experience with my BPD niece this never has a satisfactory outcome as the thinking and behaviour remains just as disordered even if less extreme."

Yes, this is as it is now. We talked over the weekend. I read him the passages that I quoted above about the 3 levels of emotion found in borderlines. He listened and agreed that much of it sounds like him, but there's just layers and layers of disordered thinking that feels like it can never be undone. Maybe if he did therapy every day for 8 hours a day for a couple years. Maybe. But I feel like, given my ability to figure him out, that I owe it to the world to at least try to bring him to a level of self-awareness, because the more I've done it the less symptomatic he's become. It's just that it takes up practically every second of every day of either thinking about it, reading about it, and then at some point talking to him, and this is not what I want my life to be about. I have a job interview today so if I get the job I think that might help. I need to focus on something else.

You said: "For me, I cannot tolerate pwBPD at all not even for an hour in their company. I can barely resist the urge to say to the simplest statement of their thinking 'O For F Sake, grow up'. No tolerance at all and that would not be good for anyone, including me."

Exactly how I feel.

[hidingmyself]

I am working toward not helping my 23 yo, even though she lives in my house. After weeks of hateful rages, I told her I would no longer engage without a third party (i.e., therapist) involved as she is completely irrational. For the past couple of weeks, we have not spoken. I try to remain emotionally blunted, despite her occasional stares and slamming of cabinets, doors, etc. Thank goodness, she continues to work for now. I pray that continues. She seems to have a great job that really suits her working in a greenhouse. Plenty of light, working with plants, and not too many people. I am in the process of moving out my younger 21 yo dtr to her first apartment. She has been so very traumatized by her sister's behavior and recently got her first professional job. She requested that we not say anything to her sister about the move as she does not want the drama. I am happy to help her in any way I can to move forward and am looking forward to staying with her while she gets settled. Will be so good for both of us to be able to breathe. As for my 23 yo, I have done all the helping, rescuing and fixing that I can do, so we will continue this path of allowing her to figure things out on her own. She told me not to buy her anything for Christmas and that she would "make" me take back anything I bought. I am really ok with that. Not sure how long we are going to continue the way things are, but nothing was working the other way.

[Leaf56]

Hi, hidingmyself! Thanks for posting here. I would insist that she move out. I could not stand what you're going through for even a week, maybe not even a day. It's awful that your other daughter has to move out instead. It sounds to me like you'll be practically living with her too. Why would you cede your home to her? Give her a month or so to find a place. There are websites that post rental shares that usually aren't too expensive. Don't pay for it yourself or sign any lease.

If she suffered no abuse and your parenting was reasonable, then tell her that she has zero grounds for complaint and it's not what caused her to be like this. The only (not negligible) hurdles at this point are your guilt, your grief, and your mom-ness. I hope you find the strength to kick her out.

[jones54]

It has been a few years since I have been on theis site. The last time I was posting, my 36 yo BPD daughter was finally homeless living in a shelter doing heroin. She finally cleaned up and actually had a decent job that paid $18 per hour full-time with benefits. She was living with a friend. This lasted about 18 months till the gentleman's daughter moved in and my daughter moved out. She actually found a recovery house to live in which was nice. She finally had her own car that she paid for with some help from me. This was April of this year. After only a month she left and said warm weather was coming so she was going to live in her car. Typical BPD impulsivity. I discouraged but you can't tell them what to do.
She now has no money, lost her job (no clue when) and it is below freezing. She has been sending hate texts and emails for close to month. She came to my office and when I went outside she attacked me with a baseball bat. Luckily I got it away from her. The next night she went to her mother's house (ex-wife) and tried to break in screaming at her. The police were called and took her away. I have filed a PPO as well as petition with the court to have her picked up and taken for a psych evaluation. She continues to email me and threatens if I do not put a roof over her head she will "do something". She spent a night in the old homeless shelter since it went down to 13 degrees F. Her mother and I refuse to help her since she again put herself in this position. She blames us for everything and that we were the worst parents and never should have children (we have a son happily married in Chicago with 2 beautiful grandchildren).
It is very difficult to step back. We did it the other way for too long. Helped put her up in a rented house before she went back on heroin is the most recent. That was when a therapist said enough. She was evicted and lost everything. Now we are back in the same situation. I hope she does not freeze to death but we cannot keep doing this. It may never change but it is easier if she is not in our life (hard to admit this). For years I wanted a daughter that was "normal" like others. I have accepted this will probably never happen. If she wants to get serious therapy, I will pay for every bit of it. Unfortunately she denies there is anything wrong with her and that we are the ones who need intense therapy since we messed up her whole life and made her an addict.
Sometimes you have to say "enough is enough".
Helpful to hear others who have been able to be strong enough to say and do the same. This is very painful to do.

[Tulipps]

My heart goes out to you, jones54. You are strong and no, it's not easy. My experience is not exactly the same but my daughter's situation is tenuous. She could  be bankrupt and homeless in the new year... or not. She's finally realized there are no more Mom rescues and appears to be focused on a bf rescue which is always a possibility as she's very smart and attractive.  
You are generous to continue offering to help with therapy. I've stopped because my daughter blames me for everything, accepts no responsibility for her behaviour/choices/outcomes,  and is not interested in doing the work. She starts and stops. I've paid for inpatient (eating disorder and drugs) more than once and many years of out-patient. She starts and quits. The last go-round was again, short-lived so I'm done. If and when she wants to change her circumstances, she'll have to seek our public resources.
I honestly don't know what will happen and I'm ok with that. It's been a very long haul. Hard to believe I could put that in print but that's how I feel today.  
 

[Flossy]

Jones, Beatrix & Tulipps

I am so glad to hear from you guys. It is comforting to know that there are more than two of us who have "had enough" and "are done".  It was the hardest thing in my life to admit and I have lost one son who died from a lung disease, so I know about doing the hard stuff. I spent 20 years trying to save his life.

To admit that we cannot do anything for our child with BPD or admit that we don't want them in our lives is harder that losing a child to death because it seems to be due to their choices.  Their continual, destructive, self-serving choices.

Mine is no longer out of control as far as I know, but has chosen to not allow me into her life for the past 14 years. She has chosen to not respond no matter what I have done to contact her. She no longer needs me as she has all the wealth and security life could possibly give her now.

Her destructive ways must have reduced but her self-serving, cold heart and lack of empathy have not.

So, I am done. Our stories are all different but a lot of us are now reaching the same conclusion.

Thank you all for responding.

PS I believe she doesn't want contact because I know the things she has done in the past and she can't risk the wealth and security she has now, by having me in her life and the chance that any of that will be mentioned.

She has re-invented herself as a wealthy, sensible, perfect mother and wife.

[Leaf56]

Hi jones, thanks soo much for posting! I have some questions if you have the time or inclination to answer one or any of them even if in the briefest way possible:

1. I'm sure you've thought about this a lot so I'll ask: Do you think that BPD in its worst form lends itself to heroin abuse? I've had a sneaking suspicion for a while that if they allow themselves to be introduced to it, escaping its clutches will be more difficult for them than other disorders. I also wonder whether marijuana might act in their brain as "heroin lite." I'd love to see a study done on the diagnoses before addiction of those who become addicted to heroin. My gut tells me it would be BPD, ADHD, anxiety disorders, and major depressive disorder, but I wonder if there's a common neurological problem among these folks.

2. Do you ever get the feeling that if you'd done what I'm suggesting earlier, i.e., cut off the support, say anywhere between the ages of 18 and 25, that the outcome would've been different, or was she already an addict by then anyway? And thinking outside of your situation, do you think it could help to set the boundaries the moment they become an adult or that it just doesn't matter?

3. Do you have any "sneaking suspicions" of your own about this disorder and what you think could have helped?

4. Do you really think therapy would help at this point? Do you think it might've helped earlier?

Thanks so much for answering if you have time!

[Leaf56]

Tulipps, thanks for posting!

In your heart of hearts, do you really think that therapy could work even if she went faithfully? My guess is that even the absolute best therapy available with the absolute best therapists probably only works (and by "works" I mean the result of treatment is real progress to the point behavior changes and stabilizes and the patient is able to live *independently* and somewhat happily for life) 10-20% of the time. I believe it can absolutely help *your relationship* with your child as long as you also change your own behavior to suit your child and continue to basically take care of them for life, probably with a success rate more around 60%, but to me that is not success. And the monetary cost of this would be prohibitive—$100,000 for one year of treatment would, in my estimation, be on the low side. A single month of inpatient at McLean, Silver Hill, or Sheppard Pratt costs between $40,000 and $60,000 and is not covered by insurance. So, that's not practical. This is why I'm appalled at the the mental health profession for selling what I believe to be snake oil. You end up with all these traumatized parents who believe that there's some holy grail out there that can cure their kids if only they had the money for it or if only their kid would go do it.

You said: "I honestly don't know what will happen and I'm ok with that. It's been a very long haul. Hard to believe I could put that in print but that's how I feel today. "

Good! I'll be here to remind you that it's okay to feel that way whenever you need it.

[Leaf56]

Hey Flossy, when you said that your daughter "has re-invented herself as a wealthy, sensible, perfect mother and wife," the first thought I had was "Just like Meghan Markle," who I'm assuming is a BPD club member given her ridiculous use of suicide threats, estrangement from her own family, insistence on her husband estranging himself from his own family to side with her, and the obvious destructive force she's had on their lives. Interesting that she supposedly idolized Princess Diana, the model of a beautiful posh pwBPD. Very beautiful and/or privileged women with BPD should really be studied separately. It's such an interesting route that they take. I'd love to see a separate thread for those of you with such daughters/wives/mothers/sisters/friends explore it.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Tulipps]

Leaf -

You asked if I believed therapy would help my daughter. There have been times I'd say yes. Now I'm not sure, especially since learning a few months ago that she quit weekly sessions because she wouldn't take suicide off the table and declared,  "there's nothing wrong with me... I just had a bad boyfriend.

I also want to respond to your questions/comments re participation on this thread. (and by the way, I'm also not on social media and am unaware of other BPD family-type chat sites).  A few thoughts...

I’m really generalizing, but it’s my opinion there are three groups (or emotional stages) of parents with adult BPD children who participate in some way on this forum:
1.   Those just realizing that something is truly “off” with their loved one
2.   Roller-coaster riders (typically mothers) trying to communicate effectively, engaged in counselling and doing what they can to help their adult child in spite of being the frequent target of verbal abuse, financial strain and increasing isolation. Suicide threats and other unrelenting crises are the order of the day.   
3.   Those who have hit a wall and stopped helping adult child who is unable or unwilling   (depending on your subscribed school of thought) to take responsibility for behaviour/choices/outcomes. Parent shifts focus to their own personal health and well being. 

After spending MANY years in group 2, I am firmly in group 3. Since your thread asks specifically about stopping help, I suspect (assuming here) that most readers are in group 2 or 3. Comments suggest to me that there are some in group 3 that might still be dragging a foot in group 2.

Let's face it - everyone is different and let's all assume that there is plenty going on behind the scenes. Some people are more comfortable reading that sharing. Not everyone wants advice, especially advice that feels absolute. Someone made what felt like a judgmental comment on an early post of mine and I retreated for months!

I participate in spurts. If something is going on personally that prompts me to question my feelings or approach, I'll drop in for some reading, perspective, and yes, validation. That's how I first found this thread.

As for ongoing input - I can't promise. Too many years worrying!  Trying to control what I couldn't and prevent what I shouldn't! Clearly I still have emotional stuff to resolve and there's a benefit to written expression and exchange... but it's not an ongoing research project for me. What you're doing is amazing but I might be finished at some point.

[beatricex]

hi Tulipps,
My husband and I have hit a wall and we are at step 3 (for now) with my sBPD step daughter.

I guess it's been pretty quiet because she disowned us.  I don't have anything really to share, we have no idea what's going on.  We do wonder and miss the grandkids (she has two girls) who are toddlers. 

I don't think she is suicidal, but don't really know for sure, but she possibly has something I heard described elsewhere as Ficticious disorder.  At 24 years of age, she thought she had thyroid cancer and even implied they were running tests before her second child was born.  This was a two year ordeal, I spent a lot of time worrying about her, texting her to followup and asking "how did the last dr appt go?"  that sort of thing.  A lot of the text convos between her and her Dad (before she disowned us) were about her health worries, or she needed the constant validation that she is good at her job.  Sometimes she'd just text a pic of a wad of cash to her dad and brag "this is what I made this weekend," that sort of thing.  This doesn't sound too bad, I know, but the holidays when she came to our house and was dysregulated were the troubling thing.  She always had to launch the family into a discussion about her Mom (my husband's ex wife) who she "has never gotten along with."  So many tears, so much pain, such a broken irrepairable relationship.  I a lot of times was at a loss for words...I mean, who wants to bad mouth your spouse's ex ALL day, on Thanksgiving?  I felt like my husband's ex was in our house when she showed up, it's all we talked about some days.

I relate the most to LivednLeared's posts about getting some calm, about getting clear on can I really validate?  My step daughter treats me like a stink bug.  I have seen an actual physical recoiling, if I'm not imagining it...  If she's not looking at her shoes instead of in my eyes like a normal person when we're talking, she also sometimes physically appears like it hurts her to look at me.  I have tried to get close to her emotionally, and get the impression it is painful for her based on her words and non verbal communication.  At some point, perhaps like when trying to get clues from a person with aspergers/autism, we kind of give up?  At least that's what I think is going on.  I could just be a crappy stepmom (not like I have done this before with an adult kid, tried to parent them).

My husband's phone dinging all night long on his bedstand and waking me up has stopped.  What a relief.  She raged at us once (him a lot more before we met and married) and that is all now in our rear view mirror.  I guess I'm here mostly because I don't know what happens next.  I like reading the stories because maybe I'm mentally preparing for what might happen next?  BPD's typically do reestablish contact (at least my mom never stopped trying) after discarding you.

I feel for all parents going through this, and yes, we have stopped Helping and it's now just a feeling of emptiness for what could of been, and was lost, after the mourning phase. 

b

[Leaf56]

Tulipps! All I can say is thank you so much for participating at all! If you are finished, so be it. I'm just happy to have any input at all—seriously, I mean *at all.* Please don't feel like I'm putting pressure on you, but if you have an insight into anything at all, I'd love to hear it. I hang on y'all's every word. I think we could all really benefit from an ongoing informal research project, but that's just my opinion.

You said: "Let's face it - everyone is different and let's all assume that there is plenty going on behind the scenes. Some people are more comfortable reading than sharing."

Absolutely. Believe me, I KNOW. Having run a very large women's interest site and its message boards before the onsite of social media, I'm very familiar with the behavior of lurkers. I also know that they'll get a lot more out of the experience if they participate.

You said: "Not everyone wants advice, especially advice that feels absolute."

Of course not. Advice is for sale. If you want it, take it. If not, leave it on the shelf.

You said: "Someone made what felt like a judgmental comment on an early post of mine and I retreated for months!"

I get this. I'm not like that, I think obviously, but I understand those who are. All I can say is that it's very important to be able to accept having your beliefs challenged in a way that's supposed to help you and still be able to retain your sense of self. If you are here and posting, I will treat you as a close friend with whom I would be honest and hope that you would expect nothing less.

[Flossy]

Hey Flossy, when you said that your daughter "has re-invented herself as a wealthy, sensible, perfect mother and wife," the first thought I had was "Just like Meghan Markle," who I'm assuming is a BPD club member given her ridiculous use of suicide threats, estrangement from her own family, insistence on her husband estranging himself from his own family to side with her, and the obvious destructive force she's had on their lives. Interesting that she supposedly idolized Princess Diana, the model of a beautiful posh pwBPD. Very beautiful and/or privileged women with BPD should really be studied separately. It's such an interesting route that they take. I'd love to see a separate thread for those of you with such daughters/wives/mothers/sisters/friends explore it.

Yep. My daughter is beautiful. Beautiful, elegant, seemingly down-to-earth, yet posh. She even took on her in-laws' South African accent and style of speech, within a year of her marriage. She totally changed her clothing style and became just like Nicole Kidman in Stepford Wives.

Megan Markle definitely displays BPD and so did Diana.
Angelina Jolie, Drew Barrymore, possibly Kirsten Dunst.
I might start a thread on that. I think it could be helpful for people to see the traits displayed by celebrities.

[beatricex]

hi again Leaf56,
I was also wanting to reread your posts on this thread, in particular, because I wanted to put some more thought into my reply instead of just replying quickly.

It sounds like a terrifying situation with your son.  I might be reading you wrong, but I sense you're worried?  Please correct me if I'm off the mark here.  Or is it perhaps another emotion, or maybe just detachment you're at?  We do suffer real burnout, I think, going through all the challenges our BPD's present us.  Sometimes what I'm typing sounds incredulous, even to me.  I wonder, who would even believe this?  Well, that's why this board exists, cause we here get it.

[Thanks again board creators!]

You may have been the person that suggested to me to read the book the Gift of Fear?  If so, thank you, it helped me a lot.  It's still helping me.

The book describes what I do, which is worry.  Worry or anxiety is not Fear, it is a choice.

I really like the suggestions given in the book for why I choose to do this, cause I want a homework assignment and I want to work towards less anxiety (who doesn't?):

Worry is a way to avoid change...
Worry is a way to avoid admitting powerlessness..
Worry is a cloying way to have connection with others...[this is what I do, I worry about my stepdaughter's health but worrying is not the same as love, or Radical acceptance, which is needed if she is in fact BPD]
Worry is a protection against future disappointment...


Guess that last one sums up why I'm here.  So my goal is to be here less.  Or more specifically, if I do come to be less in the anxious mindset.  Does this make sense?

b

[Tulipps]

So I'm not done yet .
What I tried to articulate, poorly, is that while we're all experiencing similar turmoil, there's no fast-track from what I call group 1 to group 3. That's where we all have our own story and our own circumstances that will dictate how we react and respond to our family member.
Certain advice might be hard to hear and might just come at the wrong time.
Speaking personally, I got sucked in repeatedly when my daughter pushed various manipulation buttons... just one more chance... this time it's different, etc. 
Should I have shut down the bank of Mom years ago? Of course! If I'd had that kind of advice sooner, was I ready to act? No.
I feel tremendous empathy for newbies on this site who feel helpless and don't know what to do. It's both crushing and reassuring to start reading other posts and realize that you're not alone in the chaos. Hopefully with enough information, others can move sooner to get their lives back. 
 
And Beatricex - I understand  mourning the loss of what could have been. Radical acceptance is tough.

[Leaf56]

Tulipps,

You said: "So I'm not done yet" and I said, "Yay!"

You said: "What I tried to articulate, poorly, is that while we're all experiencing similar turmoil, there's no fast-track from what I call group 1 to group 3."

But see, I DID fast-track from group 1 to group 3 after a just few days of reading here and asking a few questions, like "Are there any success stories?" and getting no responses. It was like lightning how fast I understood that no, there aren't any success stories (at least as I define success as I enumerated in other posts) and that pwBPD do not really ever get better and the only thing you can do is save yourself and your other loved ones and the faster you do that the better. You can also throw thousands (sometimes hundreds of thousands) of dollars down the drain following the snake-oil salesman/mental health professionals and end up with the same result. I started this thread because I still do wonder whether or not if you specifically do not help from as early an age as possible, and do it consistently without exhibiting guilt about it to your child, whether that might somehow help, and that is what I'm still experimenting with.

You said: "Certain advice might be hard to hear and might just come at the wrong time."

Of course, and that's why I've tried to stick to just my thread because I've found that when I don't it usually ends badly. Sorry, M-T!

[Elizabeth22]

I am no contact with my DIL, nothing else is possible.
She has asked via my son to resume a relationship with me and I have said no.

[Couscous]

Leaf56, I’m curious to know if you’ve ever read Games People Play by Eric Berne? If not then I think it may be right up your alley.