Update and Advice?

[WhatToDo47]

Hi,

You can see my previous posts for some background. A few updates, I wanted to reach out to my wife on New Years because it’s a big holiday for her and her family, but I didn’t do it.

This week, she’s been calling or texting me every day pretty much with pretenses such as taxes, car registration renewal, etc, but it always turns into a longer conversation of 30-45 minutes about our relationship, life, how I’m the only one she can trust, etc.

Today, she called again right after and asked how I am said i sounded sad, etc. I think she is preparing to ask me for the aforementioned scenario of trying to get me to move out of state to where she is, and she’s also realizing how hard it is to survive without my large income. Other times she has seemed sincere and even told me I’m a good person and she’s sorry etc etc etc.

Also, she filed for divorce about a month ago, but she hasn’t told me and I haven’t been served any papers. I found out via an ad I got for a divorce lawyer.

So… what do I do? I think she is trying to set me up for a recycle and the tools I’ve learned have helped SOO much in our conversations this week. It makes me think we have a chance but I know we probably don’t because BPD.

Any help and guidance would be so greatly appreciated

[WhatToDo47]

Posted in staying but I’m also curious what everyone here has to say.

[ForeverDad]

I'm a great advocate for marriage... healthy and functional marriage.

Sadly, pwBPD or similar mood-driven behaviors and perceptions from one extreme to the other need more than space and time apart.  Yes, space and time apart may appear that the other has improved.  The problem is that without long term therapy by an emotionally neutral professional, the closer you get, the more extreme the behaviors will be, again.

Maybe she's an exception, but the pattern is typically as described above.  Do you believe she is an exception?

She filed for divorce yet hasn't informed you.  Why?  Is she keeping you and the divorce both simmering on the back burner (cooking analogy) until she lures you back?  Or, less likely, is she getting her legal ducks in a row?

She has a long history history of erratic behaviors and evidently has been under the care of professionals for years.  You can't change her and until now the experts haven't either, sounds like she's on 'maintenance' support.

If you do let her back into your life, there's every indication the past, which led you to where you are, will become your future.

I believe you don't have to wait to be served notice, that's a legal formality, before responding to her petition for divorce.  Did she list reasons or is it the no fault type?  Would you get an experienced lawyer and agree to proceed?  Doing that would be a bit of a shock for her since she thinks you're in the dark so far.  That's at least one secret she thinks she has.

[WhatToDo47]

Thank you so much for your response and it is very helpful. I always thought she was an exception, but the last 5 or so months since she left has confirmed everything I feared. For years, she seemed to be making progress and then she torpedoed all of it in one fell swoop and doesn’t seem to think it’s any big deal or understand why anyone would be upset with her.

I don’t know why she hasn’t informed me about the filing. I don’t think there are any legal ducks to get in a row. She is generally very low functioning when it comes to anything legal, financial, etc. The back burner analogy is very possible. I sent her a “what’s the status I haven’t heard from you or a lawyer” message on 12/6 and she filed on 12/7, I think it was a response to my message.
She has paid $8,000 in retainer fees to a lawyer that she gave me the contact info, and has twice told me that I’d be hearing from them in “about 2 weeks” (on about 10/4 and about 12/7), but crickets.

It does worry me how multiple experts, including a very skilled therapist over the course of years, couldn’t change her, and how she was able to split all of her therapists and doctors black effectively overnight.

We live in a no-fault divorce state. I did a consultation with a lawyer when she said she is going to divorce me (back on 10/1), and I will retain him this week. He told me that this would be a very simple divorce as we have no children or large assets, but I know that nothing is simple with BPD.
I am worried about the past repeating. My biggest desire is to have her back and my biggest fear is to have her back. I’m concerned that she could/would do this again but that time kick me out and take what I have now (car, dog, apartment, etc.) as she told me when she left this time that I should be thankful that she didn’t do what I just wrote, so I know she’s thought about it.

I’m also worried she would made an ultimatum that we can try again but only if I move back there and effectively leave my family and job, which is providing stable, high income and health insurance, then when I got back there she’d change her mind and discard me again the first time I did something she didn’t like.

I just don’t know how I could ever trust her, but I also still love her and didn’t know BPD existed or that she had it until this happened, and when I’ve tried validating/not JADEing, etc. during our recent phone calls it has made such a difference.

Sorry for such a long message I just don’t know what to do and I know there are many here who can help.
Any advice on what I shouldn’t tolerate/how to protect myself going forward regardless of the outcome? Is there hope?

I don't want to tell her unless I have to that I know she's filed, as I resolved when this first happened that if she wants the divorce she's going to have to do it. I don't want it and therefore won't participate in initiating it.

[WhatToDo47]

One other relevant piece of info is that in the weeks leading up to her leaving, she was very dysregulated and stressed, lost her job, and told me bizarre story she had never mentioned about how her mom (who I think also has BPD and NPD) left her dad for "a while" before they had kids so that he could "straighten out." Her mom puts a lot of pressure on her and has a lot of toxic influence, especially when my wife is dysregulated. I don't know if this is my wife's version of doing the same thing as her mom did, especially because we were planning to have kids this year. As far as I know, that is the only time her mom left her dad, and they are still married decades later in a decent enough marriage by BPD standards.

[ForeverDad]

It does worry me how multiple experts, including a very skilled therapist over the course of years, couldn’t change her, and how she was able to split all of her therapists and doctors black effectively overnight.

This all or nothing thinking is a hallmark trait of pwBPD.  Based on her history, it's hard to imagine her changing after all this time and effort.

We live in a no-fault divorce state. I did a consultation with a lawyer when she said she is going to divorce me (back on 10/1), and I will retain him this week. He told me that this would be a very simple divorce as we have no children or large assets, but I know that nothing is simple with BPD.

So true, nothing is simple or standard.  Some factors in your favor are: (1) no children so no custody issues, (2) she moved out months ago so little risk of eviction expenses, (3) relatively short marriage so little risk of a lengthy alimony.

Can you do yourself a favor and change the locks on the entire residence?  If she does manage to use her keys to move back, then getting her out could add to the divorce costs.

My biggest desire is to have her back and my biggest fear is to have her back.

That too is commonly described by our newer members.  You have to think and ponder with your head (logic) first and give time for your heart (emotions) to catch up.  Or as my lawyer bluntly told me years ago, "Think with your big head, not your little head."

If you do decide to divorce, then her possible ultimatum to move to where she is and turn your life upside down should not be a fear at all.

[WhatToDo47]

Thanks, ForeverDad, that is all very helpful. To be 100% honest, I don’t see her changing, at least as long as she has her enabling family to run back to whenever she wants. Every therapist, psychiatrist, even spiritual leaders and marriage therapists are telling me they have seen many like het and that she won’t change.

I want to change the locks but the apartment office said that they would have to notify her of that and still allow her access if she comes back. However, the lease expires next month and I intend to renew without her. That’s a conversation I am not looking forward to. Do you think it’s better for me to tell her this or let the leasing office handle it? They are aware of her instability and offered to handle it for me.

I hope my heart catches up to my head soon! I am beginning to realize I dodged a bazooka, especially not having any kids with her.

That is a good point about the possible ultimatum being moot if we do divorce.

[ForeverDad]

Probably better to let the apartment office handle the notification as long as both you and your lawyer are kept in the loop and know precisely what they will say/do.

The less personal contact, the better.

And no, don't tell her in advance.  That could be self-sabotaging.  If you were trying to repair the relationship, then yes disclosure and sharing would be important to build trust.  But if the relationship has failed, then be cautious about sharing anything not required.  Ask your lawyer what is required when pondering what information or items to share.

Beware of an otherwise fine quality we Nice Guys and Nice Gals have... a sense of fairness.  In our sort of cases where the ex is willing to lie endlessly and even endanger the children, we can't "gift" our ex-spouses anything that would enable them to sabotage us.  Yes, that goes against our grain but we have to preserve our own safety, our parenting and our children's welfare for the years to come.

While we certainly aren't malevolent or nasty, we just can't volunteer ourselves to continue to be victimized because we try to be "fair".  Ask for and follow your lawyer's guidance before extending anything that favors your stbEx.

[ForeverDad]

There are reasons why you may not have been served yet.  It may be up to her to order a process server (from out of county or state).  I've heard of states where you can file and let a case just sit there indefinitely.  Or maybe the COVID chaos has bogged down everything the court does.

Once You decide what You will do with Your life and Your future, then a lot of your indecision and worry will be addressed because you will have taken the first step on a Path to Your Future.

[WhatToDo47]

"There are reasons why you may not have been served yet.  It may be up to her to order a process server (from out of county or state).  I've heard of states where you can file and let a case just sit there indefinitely.  Or maybe the COVID chaos has bogged down everything the court does."

That is very true. I did some research and it says in my state you have 60 days to serve once filed. I think part of the delay might be either her lawyer getting fed up with her (she's furious that she wouldn't get much in a divorce and she is likely blaming this on the lawyer) or her starting to realize she can't function on her own and starting to have second thoughts (she has mentioned multiple times recently how scared she is of becoming homeless and having no money).

"Once You decide what You will do with Your life and Your future, then a lot of your indecision and worry will be addressed because you will have taken the first step on a Path to Your Future."

You are definitely right about this. For those of you who have decided to end things/that enough is enough, what helped you reach that point? Was it a gradual process or did it happen all of the sudden? Thinking of starting a new thread with this question, too.

[WhatToDo47]

Also, forever dad, I see that your status is separated and then divorced. How long was your separation and what led you to finally divorce?

[ForeverDad]

I was separated for 4 months or so in 2005-2006.  I had called 911 and almost got carted off, either for the night or for jail, which, I don't know.  I got a TPO protecting me and she got a Threat of DV charge against her, then she went to family court for her own TPO.  So we each had TPOs against the other.

Meanwhile I scrambled to find a lawyer a friend had used, she was a former ADA new to family law.  My then-spouse had no wish to "reconcile" so I knew I needed a divorce to protect my parenting.  My lawyer knew she wasn't up to the task, new and being from a neighboring county.  So she recommended a lawyer she'd faced on a prior case who she discerned did care about the clients.  My PTO looked to be addressed soon and so I filed for divorce days before her DV trial was held and she was found Not Guilty.  (What she did was against the written law but apparently not against case law, in the judge's view.)

As it turned out, the day before I filed for divorce she had filed for child support.  The paperwork crossed in the mail.  Her support case was merged into my divorce case.

As so often happens, my choices narrowed down to one.  In a sense, I had no other option.  However, there were many ways my delaying and prevaricating (evading the reality and likely outcome) could have turned out much worse, especially legally.

[maxsterling]

Agree with ForeverDad here, 100%

You can have a lifelong relationship with a pwBPD.  You can have a lengthy marriage with a pwBPD, you can even find a way to be happy.  But there is no chance your relationship will be balanced, stable, or normal in any sense.  I've spent nearly 7 years thinking that somehow using this tool or that tool or changing my behavior along with enough T for my wife that somehow our relationship will be functional in any recognizable way.   I'm learning that is fools thinking.  My W has not  had a functional relationship with anyone friends, family, coworkers since I have known her.  Her relationships work okay for a few weeks or months, and inevitably W gets upset by something and it usually ends ugly. 

If I was in a place to have some kind of physical and emotional separation from my W, I am 100% sure I would not go back or take her back. I've had too much trauma, too much crap.  I suggest you work on boundaries, personal goals and hobbies, and healing.

[WhatToDo47]

Thank you both very, very much, and I will work on those things.

It helps most to hear from those, like you, who are further along the path. It’s so easy to think, as you said, that one more tool or trick or crisis resolved will be the catalyst for change, but I’m learning just how unrealistic that is based on your experiences.

Both of you seem like wonderful people who did everything you could. I have to accept that I’m not the one person in the world who can cure BPD with love.

The part about how your wife’s relationships all started out okay and then they “wronged” her and it ended up in ugly chaos especially resonates with me. I see the EXACT same pattern with my wife, with her family, friends, jobs, even with our pets and strangers on the street.

She had been making such great progress with therapy and distance from her mom, but now that she’s back with her BPD/NPD mom, who encourages this behavior, tells her she doesn’t need therapy, and blames me for “taking her away from her,” she is rapidly spiraling down. Her mom would call her multiple times a day, and threaten self harm if she didn’t answer. Her therapist always told my wife to stop answering, that that was the only way to start healing, but my wife just wouldn’t or couldn’t do it.

I’m not sure what else to ask, but your insights have been so helpful and I’m sure they will help others who read this thread as well, so know that some good has come of your suffering.

If there are any other insights, wisdom, things I should know, please do share. You are probably saving my sanity, career, maybe even life. Thank you.

[maxsterling]

The part about how your wife’s relationships all started out okay and then they “wronged” her and it ended up in ugly chaos especially resonates with me. I see the EXACT same pattern with my wife, with her family, friends, jobs, even with our pets and strangers on the street.

If I keep this in the back of my mind, it reminds me that I'm handcuffed here when it comes to fixing the relationship.  I've never had a friendship or relationship end ugly.  Yeah there are some that were difficult and feelings were hurt - but never had one end in screaming insults or threats of violence.  In the 8 years I have known my W - I have probably seen a dozen of her friendships end that way.  She even had a relationship with a therapist end that way!  How do I expect to do any differently than the dozens of people that have tried to have relationships with her in the past? As much as she claims I "trigger" her, the reality is that she is triggered by life and normal everyday interactions.  I am guessing your W is exactly the same.

[WhatToDo47]

If I keep this in the back of my mind, it reminds me that I'm handcuffed here when it comes to fixing the relationship.  I've never had a friendship or relationship end ugly.  Yeah there are some that were difficult and feelings were hurt - but never had one end in screaming insults or threats of violence.  In the 8 years I have known my W - I have probably seen a dozen of her friendships end that way.  She even had a relationship with a therapist end that way!  How do I expect to do any differently than the dozens of people that have tried to have relationships with her in the past? As much as she claims I "trigger" her, the reality is that she is triggered by life and normal everyday interactions.  I am guessing your W is exactly the same.

Wow it’s like you’re a mind reader. My wife is EXACTLY the same. This has happened with therapists, bosses, mentors, spouses, religious leaders, doctors, literally everyone in her life at one point or another, and honestly I’m getting exhausted from it.

I’ve always seen myself as a peacemaker, and alot of her relationships have been repaired through my efforts and overtures. Like you, I have never had any relationship end like hers have. I’m even on good and speaking terms with all of my romantic exes. A large part of my career is dealing with difficult personalities, and I always figured if there was anyone who could show her how to have a healthy relationship it was me and her therapists. How tragically wrong I was.

“ As much as she claims I "trigger" her, the reality is that she is triggered by life and normal everyday interactions.  I am guessing your W is exactly the same.”

This part especially resonated with me. The older she gets, the more relationships, jobs, etc fall apart, the more anxious she gets, and the more everything triggers her.

It’s so sad to see, because I love her so much and remember how she was when she was younger, but the more I try to help, the crazier and more abusive it gets.

Her own (ex) therapist told me to give up, because I’m only putting myself at risk and she needs to finally feel the consequences of her actions, that the only hope for her to get help is to hit rock bottom first.

This whole thing is so tragic and painful to watch.

Does your ex still try to recycle you or have you gone NC?

[ForeverDad]

Her own (ex) therapist told me to give up, because I’m only putting myself at risk and she needs to finally feel the consequences of her actions, that the only hope for her to get help is to hit rock bottom first.

And what if she never hits that proverbial rock bottom?  Did her mother ever hit rock bottom?

[WhatToDo47]

And what if she never hits that proverbial rock bottom?  Did her mother ever hit rock bottom?

Good point. Her mother never did, as far as I can tell. Her mother is married to a terrified shell of a man, has no friends, has ceased contact with almost all her family, and is a very angry and bitter person. She is on disability and spends all day at home basically finding new things to be upset about. It’s really sad. She also had cancer years ago and uses that as a guilt/manipulation tool, especially on my wife: “Your mama has cancer, I could die any day and you won’t do x y and z and bring me the moon? You’re an awful daughter.” She’s also constantly fighting with and firing or getting fired as a patient by doctors because they want to remove her disability benefits as, in all honesty, she is healthy enough to work.

[ForeverDad]

It's a long story, but my ex ranted and raged (and cursed) our pediatrician's staff after I told her I'd made an appointment for our son.  Son's medical notes say the doc immediately said to fire her but the letter sent her (not sent to me because she had temp custody during the separation & divorce) simply stated the practice was "withdrawing services".  Years later I did get full custody and when I asked whether son could return, they told me it was a lifetime ban for him.

[WhatToDo47]

It's a long story, but my ex ranted and raged (and cursed) our pediatrician's staff after I told her I'd made an appointment for our son.  Son's medical notes say the doc immediately said to fire her but the letter sent her (not sent to me because she had temp custody during the separation & divorce) simply stated the practice was "withdrawing services".  Years later I did get full custody and when I asked whether son could return, they told me it was a lifetime ban for him.

I could 100% see this happening. I've lost count of the number of doctors/banks/customer service representatives that my wife and her mom have been rude and sometimes downright abuse towards. It was always embarrassing and for that reason I had taken over handling all of those issues.