Finally said no to her. What can I expect and what do I do now?

[WhatToDo47]

The latest in my bizarre story, my wife called this morning and we spoke about a number of things, including (again) how she is afraid to become homeless, feels alone, scared, and even that she had a dream last night that I (the poster) killed myself. At this point, she started crying and said that my support doesn't help because she has no money. I told her that I couldn't send her any because she said she wants a divorce and there are lawyers involved, so that's a legal issue now. I did tell her that she is still on the health insurance, so to seek therapy or medical care if she feels she needs it.

Her dad is now trying to get a hold of me, through calls and texts just to "catch up." My wife berated me that her family still wants to chat with my but my family hasn't reached out to her (they have completely cut ties with her because of what she did to me).

I told her that I care about her and want her to be okay but that that's all I can offer as she left me and says she wants divorce. I validated her feelings of loneliness and desperation but said no to her money request.

What should/can I do now? What can I expect from her? I'm honestly getting tired of her making terrible, destructive choices and expecting me to bail her out. It was tolerable when she was here and in therapy, but frankly I'm exhausted from all of this and just want her to either end things or come back, and not continue this limbo state forever.

One more thing, she keeps asking for pictures of the dog. I'm not sure if there is some backhanded legal motive for this, or just trying to pull on my heartstrings. I asked her why she wants them and she said she "misses our dog." But the dog is mine, she told me to take her and go. I said I will send one picture but that's it. I intend to send some picture of the dog at the beach or something, so she can tell that the dog is fine but not where I am living with it.

[BigOof]

When you don't do what she wants, she is going to split you into all-black. Her father is a flying monkey. You should expect a barrage of flying monkeys all attacking you.

Nice moves. Stay strong. I'm proud of you, buddy!

[WhatToDo47]

When you don't do what she wants, she is going to split you into all-black. Her father is a flying monkey. You should expect a barrage of flying monkeys all attacking you.

Nice moves. Stay strong. I'm proud of you, buddy!

Thank you very very much especially for the quick reply. I'm at the point where I'm okay with being split all black. I won't allow myself to be abused anymore.

The flying monkeys analogy made my day. It helps so much to have a ridiculous metaphor to think of. If/when he tries to guilt/yell at/manipulate me, I will think of the monkeys.

My current mindset is that she can return if:

- She admits she has a problem
- She commits to therapy
- She acknowledges that if she ever pulls this leaving stunt or becomes abusive again it's over for good

I don't see her meeting these conditions but it gives me clarity and safety to have them. I will validate her, be kind, not raise my voice, etc, but she is also an adult, disordered or not, and I won't tolerate abuse anymore.

Do you think this is reasonable?

[BigOof]

- She admits she has a problem
- She commits to therapy
- She acknowledges that if she ever pulls this leaving stunt or becomes abusive again it's over for good

What value do you get out of the first or third one? Does a pwBPD think they have a problem or is their emotional reasoning impenetrable?

I see the second one as the only valid one, but it has to be conditional on perfect attendance.

[WhatToDo47]

What value do you get out of the first or third one? Does a pwBPD think they have a problem or is their emotional reasoning impenetrable?

I see the second one as the only valid one, but it has to be conditional on perfect attendance.

Good point, and you're right. The first and third are impossible without the second, and maybe even then not possible. Therapy with perfect attendance is the only reasonable condition.

Do you have any suggestions for how to protect myself if she does come back in case she does quit therapy?

[BigOof]

You need a marriage policy printed out and put up on the wall. Listen to https://www.highconflictinstitute.com/podcast. Here, they describe handling BPDs with a clear policy rather than being vilified. Example:

1) No raging
2) No hurting animals
3) No insults
4) Therapy has to have perfect attendance
5) No throwing things
6) Feelings shall be listened to
7) ...
Should the above conditions not be met, the offender shall be removed from the marriage.

That'll get you a couple of months before you'll be back at square one, sadly.

[WhatToDo47]

You need a marriage policy printed out and put up on the wall. Listen to https://www.highconflictinstitute.com/podcast. Here, they describe handling BPDs with a clear policy rather than being vilified. Example:

1) No raging
2) No hurting animals
3) No insults
4) Therapy has to have perfect attendance
5) No throwing things
6) Feelings shall be listened to
7) ...
Should the above conditions not be met, the offender shall be removed from the marriage.

That'll get you a couple of months before you'll be back at square one, sadly.

Thank you, that is EXACTLY the type of thing I'm looking for. I never knew she had BPD or what it was until she left.

For whatever stupid reason I want her to come back with clear terms and then if she fails to live up to them I won't feel any guilt. I know that's illogical and stupid, I'm just being honest. Is this playing with fire?

[GaGrl]

The therapy most successful with BPD is DBT (Dialectical Behavior Therapy). Done properly, seriously, and with commitment, it can involve individual therapy, group therapy, and assignments in a workbook between sessions. It is a long-term commitment and can take years.

You can insist that she commit to DBT.

But do you think she will stay the course?

You need to say nothing to her family members except that your marriage is not up for discussion outside you and your wife. I suspect her family is having a difficult time dealing with her behaviors and like to see her back with you.

[WhatToDo47]

The therapy most successful with BPD is DBT (Dialectical Behavior Therapy). Done properly, seriously, and with commitment, it can involve individual therapy, group therapy, and assignments in a workbook between sessions. It is a long-term commitment and can take years.

You can insist that she commit to DBT.

But do you think she will stay the course?

You need to say nothing to her family members except that your marriage is not up for discussion outside you and your wife. I suspect her family is having a difficult time dealing with her behaviors and like to see her back with you.

I think this is EXACTLY right with her family. They took me for granted and didn't realize the extent of her dysfunction. They are in far over their heads and I'm sure they want me to solve that for them. They have already kicked her out at least once since she's been back after they got her a job which she quit after just a few weeks.

I like your advice and if they bring up the marriage will remind them that it's an issue between me and my wife and no one else.

I think she is capable of committing to DBT if she realizes the alternative is rock bottom, which I think it is at this point.

Do you think it's safe to take her back and have her do DBT here, or would it be better to have her start it and only let her return once I see proof that she is attending, doing the work, etc?

I want to be prepared for all options and no longer wish to put myself at unreasonable levels of risk.

[ForeverDad]

It has often been noted here that promises are easy to make, actions and follow thru are the difficult parts.

If she does promise whatever, how convinced are you that she won't return to prior patterns?  <-- That question is the elephant in the room.  Do you want to go through even one more recycle?  We can't decide that for you.

[WhatToDo47]

It has often been noted here that promises are easy to make, actions and follow thru are the difficult parts.

If she does promise whatever, how convinced are you that she won't return to prior patterns?  <-- That question is the elephant in the room.  Do you want to go through even one more recycle?  We can't decide that for you.

You are right and that is the question. Do I want to? Yes, with all my heart. But the consequences of doing so are starting to mount, isolation from friends and family, possibly losing my apartment, dog, job, mental health suffering further. As the non, I thankfully have the ability to think of the consequences and make a logical decision instead of an emotional one.

Heart = want recycle.
Mind = telling me to run.

[BigOof]

WhatToDo47, do you think you over-validate? Do you think you have a need to validate?

[WhatToDo47]

WhatToDo47, do you think you over-validate? Do you think you have a need to validate?

I think I over logic (or whatever the term is). The reason she would get so dysregulated (in hindsight) is because she would try to express distress/anxiety/etc and I would try to logic her out of it. It's almost like I wish I had one shot using the tools on here, but maybe that's doomed to fail and not in my best interest.

Would over validating look like enabling/codependency?

[BigOof]

Do you have different outlets for this rather than just BPD ex?

[WhatToDo47]

Do you have different outlets for this rather than just BPD ex?

Outlets for what?

[WhatToDo47]

And she just texted me how this is all so hard for her and she thought I would chase her and how her engagement ring was too small etc etc etc

[maxsterling]

Skip any "conditions".  They are meaningless.  It sounds like really what you are saying is, "I will take you back if you no longer have BPD."  What you really need to decide is if you can manage continuing in a relationship with someone who has BPD. 

Sure she can go to therapy.  It may help - for awhile.  Or it may not help while you sit around waiting for it to help.  Or it may help a little bit.  But she will still have BPD and her behaviors will never be that of a non-disordered person. 

My W has been in near continuous therapy since she was 12, including a dozen stays in mental hospitals, a few suicide attempts, and some very reckless and self destructive behavior.   Did the therapy help?  Well, I suppose it may have saved her from suicide or death from drug overdose.  Since I have known her he has switched therapists, tried new medications, done different self-help activities.  And things feel better for a few weeks or months.  But the same patterns re-emerge.  After 8 years I am finally accepting things are not going to get any better. 

Will therapy help your W?  Maybe.  But I guarantee your marriage will still be a ton of work. 

My feeling is that if you are going to have any kind of conditions, you need to see that in action *before* accepting her back, rather than accepting her back under the condition that it is over if it happens again.  99% chance it will happen again.

[WhatToDo47]

Skip any "conditions".  They are meaningless.  It sounds like really what you are saying is, "I will take you back if you no longer have BPD."  What you really need to decide is if you can manage continuing in a relationship with someone who has BPD. 

Sure she can go to therapy.  It may help - for awhile.  Or it may not help while you sit around waiting for it to help.  Or it may help a little bit.  But she will still have BPD and her behaviors will never be that of a non-disordered person. 

My W has been in near continuous therapy since she was 12, including a dozen stays in mental hospitals, a few suicide attempts, and some very reckless and self destructive behavior.   Did the therapy help?  Well, I suppose it may have saved her from suicide or death from drug overdose.  Since I have known her he has switched therapists, tried new medications, done different self-help activities.  And things feel better for a few weeks or months.  But the same patterns re-emerge.  After 8 years I am finally accepting things are not going to get any better. 

Will therapy help your W?  Maybe.  But I guarantee your marriage will still be a ton of work. 

My feeling is that if you are going to have any kind of conditions, you need to see that in action *before* accepting her back, rather than accepting her back under the condition that it is over if it happens again.  99% chance it will happen again.

Thank you thank you thank you. It sounds like we are on the same path, but you are further down. You are right that I am wishing for her but without BPD, if I'm being honest with myself. I thought that was possible, but I'm slowly accepting that it's not.

I will follow your advice and make any conditions in action before accepting her back, I'm learning to accept that that also means almost certainly not accepting her back.

What keeps you in the relationship? Do you wish you would have left?

[maxsterling]

What keeps you in the relationship? Do you wish you would have left?

Up until we had kids I somehow had this idea that having kids would give our relationship purpose.  But I think really that was an excuse I made, because deep down I knew I was getting older, wanted children, and feared failure.  Kids did not improve things.

If we did not have kids together I doubt we would be together at this point.  In fact, there are a couple of times I would have considered a restraining order, and was suggested to serve one.  

I also spent a lot of time thinking that part of the problem was me, that this or that would improve things, waiting for improvements, etc.

The other thing that keeps me in it is fear.  My W has nobody else.  Good chance she could end up on the street if things end.  I'm a caring person, and it is hard to do that.  

But looking back I can say yes I wish I had left.  I had opportunity.  And I can see now that almost every time I caved on my chance because I felt guilt over her having no place to go.  I let her move in early in the r/s because she was relocating and needed a place to stay.  Had the BPD surfaced before she moved in, we would not be together now.  Another time early on in the r/s she found a room to rent and actually moved her stuff.  She never once stayed there because she expressed a lot of fear about her roommates, and I told her that if she was truly afraid she could stay over until she was comfortable.  Another time I had plans to move her out and end it, but I told myself I would only do that unless she made the decision to go to T.  I didn't set this ultimatum with her, I kept that to myself.  But literally the minute I was going to take action she called and told me she was on her way to T.  So since she made the decision on her own to see T, I held off - again out of guilt to not put her out with nowhere to go.

[WhatToDo47]

Up until we had kids I somehow had this idea that having kids would give our relationship purpose.  But I think really that was an excuse I made, because deep down I knew I was getting older, wanted children, and feared failure.  Kids did not improve things.

If we did not have kids together I doubt we would be together at this point.  In fact, there are a couple of times I would have considered a restraining order, and was suggested to serve one.  

I also spent a lot of time thinking that part of the problem was me, that this or that would improve things, waiting for improvements, etc.

The other thing that keeps me in it is fear.  My W has nobody else.  Good chance she could end up on the street if things end.  I'm a caring person, and it is hard to do that.  

But looking back I can say yes I wish I had left.  I had opportunity.  And I can see now that almost every time I caved on my chance because I felt guilt over her having no place to go.  I let her move in early in the r/s because she was relocating and needed a place to stay.  Had the BPD surfaced before she moved in, we would not be together now.  Another time early on in the r/s she found a room to rent and actually moved her stuff.  She never once stayed there because she expressed a lot of fear about her roommates, and I told her that if she was truly afraid she could stay over until she was comfortable.  Another time I had plans to move her out and end it, but I told myself I would only do that unless she made the decision to go to T.  I didn't set this ultimatum with her, I kept that to myself.  But literally the minute I was going to take action she called and told me she was on her way to T.  So since she made the decision on her own to see T, I held off - again out of guilt to not put her out with nowhere to go.

I appreciate such a thorough and well thought out response. I feel that I will soon be at one of those crossroads. She seems to be putting out feelers to recycle and move back in.

She has moved out all her stuff, even filed for divorce, but I haven't been served and she is softening every day.

I also want kids and a family - we were supposed to start this year. I was also expecting kids to help the turmoil as a source of purpose and routine for her. Sounds like that's farfetched at best, child endangerment at worst.

You story reads like a carbon copy of mine. Today, she has sent me many texts that she "had to run" because me and my family did X Y or Z to her at various points over the years. Things like hold her accountable for her decisions and not allow her to speak badly about family members behind each other's back.

Even therapy it sounds isn't as promising as I'd hoped. She has failed therapy at least twice. Not DBT, but it's still a trend.

I am at the point of praying that she doesn't ever ask to come back, terrified that she will.

I don't know what else to ask or say at this point. Your story has helped me - a lot. I guess I'm also afraid that I won't be able to find someone else or have the family I want, and scared that she will end up homeless or dead. I'm literally the only one who hasn't abandoned her, but maybe I should. That thought is both freeing and depressing.

I don't know what I'm asking, but do you have anything else you can tell me at this point? I feel lost and scared to lose her and to keep her. It's such an awful place to be.

[stolencrumbs]

Skip any "conditions".  They are meaningless.  It sounds like really what you are saying is, "I will take you back if you no longer have BPD."  What you really need to decide is if you can manage continuing in a relationship with someone who has BPD. 

Sure she can go to therapy.  It may help - for awhile.  Or it may not help while you sit around waiting for it to help.  Or it may help a little bit.  But she will still have BPD and her behaviors will never be that of a non-disordered person. 

This seems really important to grasp. Therapy is great. DBT seems to have positive results. But read the literature. It has positive results with diagnosed pwBPD, and those results are mainly measured by self-harm and suicide attempts/ideation/etc.  I'm sure it can help with other issues as well, but it is not a "cure". There will be ongoing challenges. It won't be a "normal" relationship. It may be devoid of the most extreme behaviors, but personality disorders aren't like depression or anxiety. They're not going to just go away, and they will surface in all kinds of ways. Those other ways might be manageable and it might be worth it, but it's important to get a sense of what even successful therapy with genuine commitment will be able to accomplish.

[NotAHero]

The latest in my bizarre story, my wife called this morning and we spoke about a number of things, including (again) how she is afraid to become homeless, feels alone, scared, and even that she had a dream last night that I (the poster) killed myself. At this point, she started crying and said that my support doesn't help because she has no money. I told her that I couldn't send her any because she said she wants a divorce and there are lawyers involved, so that's a legal issue now. I did tell her that she is still on the health insurance, so to seek therapy or medical care if she feels she needs it.

Her dad is now trying to get a hold of me, through calls and texts just to "catch up." My wife berated me that her family still wants to chat with my but my family hasn't reached out to her (they have completely cut ties with her because of what she did to me).

I told her that I care about her and want her to be okay but that that's all I can offer as she left me and says she wants divorce. I validated her feelings of loneliness and desperation but said no to her money request.

What should/can I do now? What can I expect from her? I'm honestly getting tired of her making terrible, destructive choices and expecting me to bail her out. It was tolerable when she was here and in therapy, but frankly I'm exhausted from all of this and just want her to either end things or come back, and not continue this limbo state forever.

One more thing, she keeps asking for pictures of the dog. I'm not sure if there is some backhanded legal motive for this, or just trying to pull on my heartstrings. I asked her why she wants them and she said she "misses our dog." But the dog is mine, she told me to take her and go. I said I will send one picture but that's it. I intend to send some picture of the dog at the beach or something, so she can tell that the dog is fine but not where I am living with it.

 Keep an arm length relationship as you move through the divorce. Just like that call you just had. I know it’s hard. My legal work is all done and in effect but I can’t help feeling bad for her still as I watch her destroy herself.  I know I have to take care of myself though. You will find my story on the boards if you want to know how I dealt with the stage you were in. It wasn’t easy and it’s still hard now.

[maxsterling]

Well, this probably deserves its own subject, but here is a list of things of my life that have have changed for the negative as a result of my r/s that I don't expect to easily improve:

1) Relationship with my family has deteriorated.  Any time there is any discussion of my family or meeting with them, W gets in a bad mood.  
2) I have less personal time for hobbies.  I tried to say I needed 45 minutes time to fix a broken cabinet the other day - W said my time was more valuable to her and the kids.  Turns out we spent an hour and a half "discussing" anyway - twice the time it would have taken me to fix the cabinet!  Almost every time I tell W that I need time for self care, she winds up stressed out or trying to piggyback on my time.  So, my only time to get anything done for me is to steal time away from work, or hope that she falls asleep early.
3) Money.  As long as I am with my W I feel money will always be tight.  She is not really capable of working full time.  My salary has almost doubled since the time we met, yet I feel like money is tighter now than it was then.  Part of the problem is that W has an attitude of replacing things when they don't need to be replaced that when there is extra money means to search for things to buy/replace.  We literally gave away a $1500 sofa a few months after we paid it off because W wanted something firmer.  
4) Stress.  I don't think this relationship will ever be to a point where I feel unencumbered to be myself - I will always have a bit of anxiety in the back of my mind over every interaction with her.  And stress creates weird health issues.  The other day I spent the entire day out of the house after an argument and me saying that I would not be around for abuse.  I went on three hikes.  By the end of the day - I could actually read words on my phone without my glasses.  Is this for real?  https://dictionary.webmd.com/hysterical-blindness

[maxsterling]

This seems really important to grasp. Therapy is great. DBT seems to have positive results. But read the literature. It has positive results with diagnosed pwBPD, and those results are mainly measured by self-harm and suicide attempts/ideation/etc.  I'm sure it can help with other issues as well, but it is not a "cure". There will be ongoing challenges. It won't be a "normal" relationship. It may be devoid of the most extreme behaviors, but personality disorders aren't like depression or anxiety. They're not going to just go away, and they will surface in all kinds of ways. Those other ways might be manageable and it might be worth it, but it's important to get a sense of what even successful therapy with genuine commitment will be able to accomplish.

Exactly.  To the T, my W's DBT was a success because 20 years later she has not killed herself, cut up her arm, or shot up heroin. 

[stolencrumbs]

Exactly.  To the T, my W's DBT was a success because 20 years later she has not killed herself, cut up her arm, or shot up heroin.  

Yeah. Idk if my stbxw is in T or not at this point, but she hasn't had a serious suicide attempt in over a year, her arms, legs, and face are not bruised from hitting herself all the time, and to my knowledge, she has not set fires inside the house. So whatever she''s doing is "working" in terms of eliminating the extreme behaviors. And all of that stuff is bad. But honestly, I could've lived with someone who was occasionally suicidal if that didn't come with all the stuff that is more like the kinds of issues that people seem to struggle with in BPD relationships. Again, T is great. I love my T. But there's gonna have to be some radical acceptance whether the pwBPD is in T or not.  

[WhatToDo47]

Stolen Crumbs, I am going to delve more into the DBT literature. I am healthcare worker and very competent at reading medical literature, so I think I’m in for a (disappointing) treat. I fear how her BPD will surface in the future. I read about how DBT is effective, but I guess I didn’t take into account what I would consider acceptable. No cutting, suicidality, but tons of verbal abuse, leaving and returning cycles, cheating, etc would not be acceptable to me. Maxsterling’s post below is what I’m talking about, and scared of, that she wouldn’t try to kill herself anymore, just isolate, bankrupt, and cheat on me. Whoop dee doo.

Notahero, I will keep an arm length relationship for sure. It’s very hard, and it’s hard to see her destroy herself, but I also know I tried my honest hardest for almost 7 years to keep her from destroying herself. She’s worse off than where we started and I barely survived, thanks to the very family and friends and religious community she’s attempting to isolate me from right now. I’m going to read your story tonight after work as I know that will be a low point for me. Always hard coming home and not having my wife there.

Thank you for the list, Maxsterling. Less time for hobbies, money drain, and stress problems are already happening. All are resolving since she’s left, especially money and stress problems. I’m concerned relationship with my family will follow if she returns. She’s picked fights with all of them at one point or another, and she’s saying that if she returns I have to “protect her” from them. Sounds noble but there’s no affront to protect against. So that would be inevitable chaos.

I couldn’t help but laugh at some things you mention. I remember before she left hoping she wouldn’t wake up before me in the morning and that she would fall asleep before me, otherwise I couldn’t get anything done. I’m also a hiker, and my hikes have gotten shorter and shorter, because hobby is “putting hiking/errands/working/family/walking the dog, etc” before her.

Money was becoming a problem, too. When we met, we were both students. I now make well over 6 figures, but we were struggling to pay the bills every month. She would get a job, spend as if she worked that job all year, and then quit after a month or two because someone made her mad there. The same thing you mentioned with the sofa has happened to me, with a couch, TV, table, rug, towels, dishes, you name it. One day she’ll just decide she doesn’t like it anymore and it becomes urgent to get a new one, whether we have the money or not. We have a long, long saga about couches. I didn’t know about hysterical blindness, fascinating and terrifying.

I think part of the problem is that, now that we’re apart, I am more myself, less stressed, more financially secure, etc. She sees that and wants it again, but if she comes back, those things will erode again because of her behaviors. But if I point that out, she will threaten to leave again.

Stolencrumbs, you make a good point. I can deal with someone who is moody, occasionally needy, suicidal, can’t keep a job, etc etc as long as they love me and treat me decently. That’s basically what I had the last 6.5 years. The new version that includes leaving me, calling the police on me, filing for divorce, playing mind games about the dog that she gave me, that version I just can’t tolerate. It sounds like therapy might get rid of the version I can handle and cause acting out/intensifying of the version I can’t. Ugh.

It’s both comforting and concerning how similar the BPD behaviors and cycles are, comforting to know I’m not alone, concerning because I don’t like where my story goes if I take her back, even though I want to.