One of the most enlightening sites on BPD other than this one.

[rob66]

For any of you looking to gain more insight into what has been going on with your BPDex, this is an excellent site that illustrates numerable aspects of why people with BPD behave the way they do. It's extremely nuanced and helpful.

Are any of you familiar with this site, or with Joanna Nicola?

www.nicolamethodforhighconflict.com/

[Couscous]

Cool, thanks for sharing! I just learned that my MIL falls into the category of Extreme Controller. No wonder she has always rubbed me the wrong way…

[WhatToDo47]

New to me but I’ll check it out. Thanks!

[drumdog4M]

Thank you for the recommendation. I've been reading various articles on the site, and it really is incredibly insightful and helpful in understanding a number of the elements of BPD traits that make us fall so hard and have such difficulty letting go (among other things).

[T0M]

For any of you looking to gain more insight into what has been going on with your BPDex, this is an excellent site that illustrates numerable aspects of why people with BPD behave the way they do. It's extremely nuanced and helpful.

Are any of you familiar with this site, or with Joanna Nicola?

www.nicolamethodforhighconflict.com/

I downloaded the PDF and read it - the two magical sentences...

As a response to Anger
When you said that it seemed like you thought I did something wrong.

As a response to distrust
I may be being oversensitive, but when you said that it seemed like you thought I do not love you.

Lets see if it does anything.

[WhatToDo47]

I downloaded the PDF and read it - the two magical sentences...

As a response to Anger
When you said that it seemed like you thought I did something wrong.

As a response to distrust
I may be being oversensitive, but when you said that it seemed like you thought I do not love you.

Lets see if it does anything.

I would love to hear a report back on this...

[T0M]

I would love to hear a report back on this...

So far... I did not need them. 

[WhatToDo47]

So far... I did not need them. 

May it continue!

[WhatToDo47]

So far... I did not need them. 

I'm going to keep them in my back pocket, too, just in case. I've found that many of these tools are useful in all relationships (including BPDs in other settings such as work), even to clarify our own thinking and self talk, so they're valuable skills to learn even if we don't need them with our BPDs.

[PeteWitsend]

I downloaded the PDF and read it - the two magical sentences...

As a response to Anger
When you said that it seemed like you thought I did something wrong.

As a response to distrust
I may be being oversensitive, but when you said that it seemed like you thought I do not love you.

Lets see if it does anything.

I also found the Nicola method site (after my divorce), and so never got to try these phrases.  I'm also curious if they work!

I posted about that site here a while ago, and people said it was interesting, but none had heard of it. 

She really does seem to nail down the dynamic at work in BPD-related conflict though.  I wonder if the fact that she doesn't have formal training & education in psychology or psychiatry weighs against there being more acceptance for her writings? 

For me, especially, the description of the way BPDers/high-conflict individuals use projection & conflict to flip their feelings from guilt/shame to anger/victimhood was insightful.  I've learned when BPDxw suddenly accuses me of something off-the-wall, it's because SHE is doing it herself, and feels guilty about it. 

[PeteWitsend]

...

For me, especially, the description of the way BPDers/high-conflict individuals use projection & conflict to flip their feelings from guilt/shame to anger/victimhood was insightful.  I've learned when BPDxw suddenly accuses me of something off-the-wall, it's because SHE is doing it herself, and feels guilty about it. 

BPDxw once sent me an email a couple paragraphs long about "parental alienation": what it was, and why it was wrong to do it to her.  I was caught off-guard, because our D had been with her for an extended period of time at that point (it was summer and so I didn't have my standard school-night overnights once a week), and only saw her every-other weekend.  Where did she get the idea I was trying to alienate our D from her come from?  I hadn't even seen her in almost two weeks.

I got my answer the next time I picked up my daughter for a weekend visit, and she angrily informed me she didn't want to visit my house because I made "bad food" and someday she would decide not to see me anymore.  BPDxw was just projecting when she sent that email... SHE was the one actually committing parental alienation.  But of course, in her mind, the email absolved her of that, and she could imagine she was the wronged party here...

[NotAHero]

I downloaded the PDF and read it - the two magical sentences...

As a response to Anger
When you said that it seemed like you thought I did something wrong.

As a response to distrust
I may be being oversensitive, but when you said that it seemed like you thought I do not love you.

Lets see if it does anything.

 I tried them for a while during my relationship. Sometimes they worked but they were not enough to stop the seasaw from accelerating.

[WhatToDo47]

I also found the Nicola method site (after my divorce), and so never got to try these phrases.  I'm also curious if they work!

I posted about that site here a while ago, and people said it was interesting, but none had heard of it. 

She really does seem to nail down the dynamic at work in BPD-related conflict though.  I wonder if the fact that she doesn't have formal training & education in psychology or psychiatry weighs against there being more acceptance for her writings? 

For me, especially, the description of the way BPDers/high-conflict individuals use projection & conflict to flip their feelings from guilt/shame to anger/victimhood was insightful.  I've learned when BPDxw suddenly accuses me of something off-the-wall, it's because SHE is doing it herself, and feels guilty about it. 

I'm learning this, too. Her constant accusations that I was going to lose my job, leave her, cheat on her, lie to her, followed by her losing her job, leaving me, cheating on me, lying to me, really proved the concept.

[WhatToDo47]

I tried them for a while during my relationship. Sometimes they worked but they were not enough to stop the seasaw from accelerating.

This helps to know. I think the hardest part is that NOTHING can stop the cycle except the pwBPD going through proper therapy, and even then it's far from guaranteed and relapse could be anytime. I feel like my communication got pretty good at the end, and when she discarded me (5 year marriage) she claimed it was because I didn't buy new enough shirts, amongst other things of that caliber. I think no amount of external adjustment on our part can stop the internal cycle going on with them. Sad.

[WhatToDo47]

BPDxw once sent me an email a couple paragraphs long about "parental alienation": what it was, and why it was wrong to do it to her.  I was caught off-guard, because our D had been with her for an extended period of time at that point (it was summer and so I didn't have my standard school-night overnights once a week), and only saw her every-other weekend.  Where did she get the idea I was trying to alienate our D from her come from?  I hadn't even seen her in almost two weeks.

I got my answer the next time I picked up my daughter for a weekend visit, and she angrily informed me she didn't want to visit my house because I made "bad food" and someday she would decide not to see me anymore.  BPDxw was just projecting when she sent that email... SHE was the one actually committing parental alienation.  But of course, in her mind, the email absolved her of that, and she could imagine she was the wronged party here...

Yeah, I think they expect that by accusing others of doing what they're doing, that somehow makes them not guilty of it. It's very frustrating.

[Papaya]

I downloaded the PDF and read it - the two magical sentences...

As a response to Anger
When you said that it seemed like you thought I did something wrong.

As a response to distrust
I may be being oversensitive, but when you said that it seemed like you thought I do not love you.

Lets see if it does anything.

Honestly, it sounds utterly academic to me. I can understand the rational why it is supposed to be working on a careful listener who will get all the almost hypnotic inductions woven into the long wording.

Alas, the person is angry! What can you expect other than "of course you did something wrong, you stupid idiot", followed by a long rant?

And in the second case, if you are dealing with a pwbpd, full of self-doubt, what other would you expect than "how can I think you love me if you did that", followed by accusations and blame?

[WhatToDo47]

Honestly, it sounds utterly academic to me. I can understand the rational why it is supposed to be working on a careful listener who will get all the almost hypnotic inductions woven into the long wording.

Alas, the person is angry! What can you expect other than "of course you did something wrong, you stupid idiot", followed by a long rant?

And in the second case, if you are dealing with a pwbpd, full of self-doubt, what other would you expect than "how can I think you love me if you did that", followed by accusations and blame?

I think it all depends on the pwBPD and how dysregulated they are at the moment, as well as whether you're being idealized or devalued. I know with my ex, when someone is being idealized, they could tell her she's a cruel, ugly idiot, and she would thank them for being honest. When they're being devalued, they could give her a diamond ring and flowers (I actually did this) and she said that I didn't do it "at a time when it meant something." Huh?

I think a lot has to do with the expectations from these tools and techniques. Will it ensure a normal, healthy, non-abusive reaction? No way. Will it increase the likelihood of one if it's possible? I suppose.

Just my 2 cents.

[PeteWitsend]

I think it all depends on the pwBPD and how dysregulated they are at the moment, as well as whether you're being idealized or devalued. I know with my ex, when someone is being idealized, they could tell her she's a cruel, ugly idiot, and she would thank them for being honest. When they're being devalued, they could give her a diamond ring and flowers (I actually did this) and she said that I didn't do it "at a time when it meant something." Huh?

I think a lot has to do with the expectations from these tools and techniques. Will it ensure a normal, healthy, non-abusive reaction? No way. Will it increase the likelihood of one if it's possible? I suppose.

Just my 2 cents.

This is true.  They often hear whatever they want, and conflict seemed to be something they sought and almost enjoyed. 

It was bizarre to me.  BPDxw seemed to enjoy fighting and conflict on some level.  I recall being pushed to my limit a few times, and erupting at her - even cursing her out - and she surprisingly calmed right down and backed off. 

This was not OKAY for me though... my blood would be boiling, and I was fully ready to fight and on edge.  I think conflict between partners is destructive - both physically and mentally, unhealthy, and only breeds more issues.  Yet BPDxw grew up in a home where that kind of thing was frequent - including physical abuse - and I think she associated conflict with commitment.  Indeed a third party that knew both of us told me after our divorce that she probably expected me to hit her, and when I didn't, that was a sign that I didn't care enough about our relationship to fight for it (?) even though I'd be abusing her (?)

But that wasn't the kind of life I wanted to live... each party storming out of the house over absurd or frivolous things, screaming at eachother in front of the neighbors or other people, cops getting called (or worse), etc. etc.

So... yeah, I figure the Nicola Method would really be useless in my case anyway.  It may produce some short term results, or occasionally defuse a potential larger argument.  It's not going to end conflict, or even make a relationship with a pwBPD tolerable for the Non. 

BPDxw would go to all sorts of lengths to create conflict, and no words or actions from me were going to stop that.  Indeed, I'd see her go so far as to engineer fights via email or text, or on facebook with my extended family or friends literally out of the blue, to try to drag me into them.  And of course, if I didn't react the right way (which was to jump in immediately on her side), then WE were off to the races in our own fight.  Chaos. 

[WhatToDo47]

This is true.  They often hear whatever they want, and conflict seemed to be something they sought and almost enjoyed. 

It was bizarre to me.  BPDxw seemed to enjoy fighting and conflict on some level.  I recall being pushed to my limit a few times, and erupting at her - even cursing her out - and she surprisingly calmed right down and backed off. 

This was not OKAY for me though... my blood would be boiling, and I was fully ready to fight and on edge.  I think conflict between partners is destructive - both physically and mentally, unhealthy, and only breeds more issues.  Yet BPDxw grew up in a home where that kind of thing was frequent - including physical abuse - and I think she associated conflict with commitment.  Indeed a third party that knew both of us told me after our divorce that she probably expected me to hit her, and when I didn't, that was a sign that I didn't care enough about our relationship to fight for it (?) even though I'd be abusing her (?)

But that wasn't the kind of life I wanted to live... each party storming out of the house over absurd or frivolous things, screaming at eachother in front of the neighbors or other people, cops getting called (or worse), etc. etc.

So... yeah, I figure the Nicola Method would really be useless in my case anyway.  It may produce some short term results, or occasionally defuse a potential larger argument.  It's not going to end conflict, or even make a relationship with a pwBPD tolerable for the Non. 

BPDxw would go to all sorts of lengths to create conflict, and no words or actions from me were going to stop that.  Indeed, I'd see her go so far as to engineer fights via email or text, or on facebook with my extended family or friends literally out of the blue, to try to drag me into them.  And of course, if I didn't react the right way (which was to jump in immediately on her side), then WE were off to the races in our own fight.  Chaos. 

Like you read a page from what happened to me. Literally everything you wrote there happened to me. It's so sad to think that this is normal for me, but for any non it would lead us to depression, anxiety, unhappiness, and maybe jail, too.

It's a no win situation, if you fight back, you're abusive and they blame it on you and leave you. If you don't fight back, you didn't care and you're not a man and they leave you. So no matter what, they leave you. That's all they know how to do, chaos, as you said. It's their normal.

I think calm makes them uncomfortable in part because they expect chaos and would rather be in control of causing it than have the anxiety of expecting it to come.

The triangulating fights happened to me, too. And I ALWAYS had to take her side. She once got mad when I said that "it seems like you're upset such and such." I was supposed to say WE are upset. Even when I took her side, I didn't do it in the right way, or my facial expression was wrong, she thought I was lying, etc.

And then when she left, and I chased her, she told me that we need to divorce because I didn't give her space. And then I gave her space, and she was "so hurt" because I didn't chase her. Impossible and tragic.

[Supermoon]

Ty. First time I heard of this method

[WhatToDo47]

Ty. First time I heard of this method

Welcome to the community, Supermoon! You will find healing here and a community of people who truly care about you and understand the uniquely traumatic experience you've been through. Better days ahead for all, I pray!

[Protectourfamily]

I think it all depends on the pwBPD and how dysregulated they are at the moment, as well as whether you're being idealized or devalued. I know with my ex, when someone is being idealized, they could tell her she's a cruel, ugly idiot, and she would thank them for being honest. When they're being devalued, they could give her a diamond ring and flowers (I actually did this) and she said that I didn't do it "at a time when it meant something." Huh?

Wow! So true! Obviously, I knew that when my BPDh is "splitting," nothing I could say or do would make a difference.
But I never put 2 + 2 together and realized that the way he THANKS me for criticizing him in an idealized phase is not just weird, it's the BPD itself.

[LifewithEase]

WhatToDo47

You said something that really hit home.

Years ago, in the early stages of our marriage I would mentally organize all the dysregulation actions and words into one phrase:

"She creates chaos to create control"

[WhatToDo47]

Wow! So true! Obviously, I knew that when my BPDh is "splitting," nothing I could say or do would make a difference.
But I never put 2 + 2 together and realized that the way he THANKS me for criticizing him in an idealized phase is not just weird, it's the BPD itself.

Yup, so true!

[WhatToDo47]

WhatToDo47

You said something that really hit home.

Years ago, in the early stages of our marriage I would mentally organize all the dysregulation actions and words into one phrase:

"She creates chaos to create control"

"She creates chaos to create control"

WOW. That sums it up so simply and elegantly. Going to remember that one and pass it along. Thank you so much!

[LifewithEase]

All,

I took the time to read the Nicola method with the hope it will help me with specific words, phrases, and approaches to in the moment FOG, anger, tantrums, etc.

One week on? Meh.

- - -
Example 1:

Me: ... seemed like you thought I did something wrong.

uBPDw: you did

Me: I'd like to better understand what that was?

uBPDw: existing

- - -
Example 2 (most of the time when I do not agree with uBPDw she gets upset, not just with household, relationships, kids, but driving, groceries, etc.)

Me: [brainstorming] how about if the kids have a night time limit on weeknights...

uBPDw: [very anger] your suggestion is ridiculous. All of your suggestions are ridiculous, that is why I can't stand having conversations with you.

Me: ... seemed like you thought I did something wrong.

uBPDw: it does matter if you were right or wrong, you're ridiculous

I really desire any suggestions or help on approaches, wording, responses, and in the moment language. Outside the resources on this board, feel free to share your tips.

"Don't JADE" has been helpful, yet as many of you all know, in the early stages of this approach and building boundaries it can infuriate them. Or in front of the kids, can show up as weakness / acceptance.

[Couscous]

Lifewithease,

Wow…your wife is extremely verbally abusive. Have you read the book The Verbally Abusive Relationship?

That said, I think you are stopping too quickly with the Nicola Method, you have to keep going until she gives up. Have you read all five blog posts or just the PDF? I don’t think a week is long enough to tell whether or not it’s working.

Here’s part 5, the advanced techniques: www.nicolamethodforhighconflict.com/how-to-stop-emotional-abuse-advanced/

[WhatToDo47]

Lifewithease, those conversations remind me so much of my expwBPD. And yes, they are terribly verbally abusive on her part and not at all okay. Now, I know that won't stop her.

For me, I found that validating helped ALOT, but only learned about BPD after she finally left, so I'm not sure if it would help you.

Just basically hearing the emotions behind what she's saying, rather than the words, because the words are meaningless when she's in that "mode." And once you hear the emotions saying basically "sounds frustrating" or "you must be so angry/sad/lonely/hurt" etc and then "I love you and I'm here for you."

Did she still return verbal abuse? Usually, yeah. But it seemed to calm her down faster as the underlying emotion had been "heard."

Take all this with a grain of salt, but hopefully it's helpful to some extent.

Let me know if I can be of help!