BPD separating you from your family

[PeteWitsend]

...
This is the pace I am coming to.  I don't want to be a therapist.  Even Ts have issues dealing with my W - multiple have quit on her over the past 7 years.  She has cursed out and abused Ts.  The "stop making things worse" advice here is great, but I am starting to see that the things we are doing to "make things worse" are simply ordinary things that aren't issues at all for 99% of the people we will encounter in life - we aren't doing anything wrong in the first place.  And the things we can do to help can reduce conflict, but don't make the relationship any healthier.  

This was my experience as well... the "tools" to manage a BPDer are valid, but won't stop a BPDer hell-bent on creating conflict from doing just that.   they don't produce long term change or improvement; they're stop gap measures to reduce conflict in the heat of the moment.

I don't mean to downplay them; if you're in a relationship that is physically abusive, or one you can't leave (ie parent/sibling), these can be a lifesaver.  But if you CAN leave because you find it intolerable, and are weighing your options, validating their viewpoint or listening with empathy isn't going to change that.

And we're not therapists... we don't get a break from it.  We don't get to just tell them we won't see them again.  We have our own needs, emotions, and self respect, and it's unreasonable to expect a functional adult, balancing a career and family, to also caretake a BPDers mood swings and high-conflict behavior.

[Cat Familiar]

 THIS    

 But if you CAN leave because you find it intolerable, and are weighing your options, validating their viewpoint or listening with empathy isn't going to change that.

And we're not therapists... we don't get a break from it.  We don't get to just tell them we won't see them again.  We have our own needs, emotions, and self respect, and it's unreasonable to expect a functional adult, balancing a career and family, to also caretake a BPDers mood swings and high-conflict behavior.

I stayed way too long in my first marriage. If there’s no motivation to make lasting changes, no progress in that direction, no interest in your emotional well-being, you have to wonder what keeps you wanting to try to fix things.

[alleyesonme]

This was my experience as well... the "tools" to manage a BPDer are valid, but won't stop a BPDer hell-bent on creating conflict from doing just that.   they don't produce long term change or improvement; they're stop gap measures to reduce conflict in the heat of the moment.

I don't mean to downplay them; if you're in a relationship that is physically abusive, or one you can't leave (ie parent/sibling), these can be a lifesaver.  But if you CAN leave because you find it intolerable, and are weighing your options, validating their viewpoint or listening with empathy isn't going to change that.

And we're not therapists... we don't get a break from it.  We don't get to just tell them we won't see them again.  We have our own needs, emotions, and self respect, and it's unreasonable to expect a functional adult, balancing a career and family, to also caretake a BPDers mood swings and high-conflict behavior.

Great post!

[Notwendy]

I am with Forever Dad on questioning what your wife has told the doctor. Do you go to visits with her?

Were the twins born with some condition that makes them prone to constipation? Yes, even healthy kids can develop this kind of constipation and sometimes it's emotional distress- not always from a parent. Maybe it's not wanting to use the potty at preschool, or the family moves or some other emotional stressor. But there's a disordered parent and family dysfunction here.

I also agree with Forever Dad that the way a pwBPD communicates with the doctor is something to consider. She may be completely truthful but still be relating her views and feelings about the situation.

[PeteWitsend]

I am with Forever Dad on questioning what your wife has told the doctor. Do you go to visits with her?
...

Absolutely, he should call the doctor himself.

while I was married, BPDxw would always exaggerate our D's health issues, including once insisting she was "projectile vomiting" which - long story - lead to me having to take the poor thing to a hospital at 11 PM on a weeknight to have blood drawn.  I swear her motivation seemed to have more to do with guilt tripping me into feeling like I was not as serious about our D's health as she was (D was fine... she was not projectile vomiting but ended up having to do weekly blood tests for no reason).

more recently, we had a huge issue over getting our D the COVID   vaxx.  BPDxw blatantly lied about what our D's pediatrician told her (claiming he said he wouldn't advise her to get the shot), and sending me a bunch of youtube videos of crackpots making all sorts of claims about it.

point being: BPDers will do and say anything, even when it comes to their children's health.  in the end even that takes a backseat to their need to control and manipulate their partner.

[regulardad]

Absolutely, he should call the doctor himself.

while I was married, BPDxw would always exaggerate our D's health issues, including once insisting she was "projectile vomiting" which - long story - lead to me having to take the poor thing to a hospital at 11 PM on a weeknight to have blood drawn.  I swear her motivation seemed to have more to do with guilt tripping me into feeling like I was not as serious about our D's health as she was (D was fine... she was not projectile vomiting but ended up having to do weekly blood tests for no reason).

more recently, we had a huge issue over getting our D the COVID   vaxx.  BPDxw blatantly lied about what our D's pediatrician told her (claiming he said he wouldn't advise her to get the shot), and sending me a bunch of youtube videos of crackpots making all sorts of claims about it.

point being: BPDers will do and say anything, even when it comes to their children's health.  in the end even that takes a backseat to their need to control and manipulate their partner.

My bpd wife does the same thing with my son. She's convinced that he has a laundry list of issues which he doesn't have. She was on speaker phone with the DR after the 9 month appt, and she was going on a rant about all the things she thinks is wrong. The DR said he is completely fine and of course she knows better and the DR is wrong.

[maxsterling]

I am with Forever Dad on questioning what your wife has told the doctor. Do you go to visits with her?

Were the twins born with some condition that makes them prone to constipation? Yes, even healthy kids can develop this kind of constipation and sometimes it's emotional distress- not always from a parent. Maybe it's not wanting to use the potty at preschool, or the family moves or some other emotional stressor. But there's a disordered parent and family dysfunction here.

I also agree with Forever Dad that the way a pwBPD communicates with the doctor is something to consider. She may be completely truthful but still be relating her views and feelings about the situation.

Most likely an underdeveloped digestive system from being born 2.5 months premature.  We have battled digestive system issues from day 1.  I wasn't at the latest Dr. appointment, but the assessment agreed with both the pediatrician and the previous specialist that we saw, and a few books I have read on the subject.  The difference this time is that they are 1/5 years older, so there is a little more urgency in being more aggressive.   Emotional stress could be a factor, but I think it is more of a factor in the continuance of the issue rather than the cause. 

[maxsterling]

My bpd wife does the same thing with my son. She's convinced that he has a laundry list of issues which he doesn't have. She was on speaker phone with the DR after the 9 month appt, and she was going on a rant about all the things she thinks is wrong. The DR said he is completely fine and of course she knows better and the DR is wrong.

I'm not saying my W has not done this.  I just don't think so in this case. 

The times she has done this I would categorize it as "excessive concerned mother" and sometimes bordering on wanting pity for herself.  Most of it is fueled by comments from friends/family/social media.  There were a few times we took the kids to the doctor when W was overly concerned about something only to have the Dr tell her to calm down and the kids were fine. 

There was a time when W was concerned about S's behavior when he was 2 and that he was on the autism spectrum.  Part of this concern came from her family (who sometimes joke about anyone being different as being autistic), part from social media, part from other friends.  So she took S to the pediatrician, who said that she could not diagnose anything, but could give her a referral to a place that specializes in autism.  So, we took him there, and the specialist "flagged" him as possibly autistic, and recommended additional evaluation.  Of course, the additional evaluation was not covered by insurance (I think the whole thing was a scam to prey upon worried parents).  We wound up taking them to a place that was covered by insurance, who did a whole eval and came back to say our kids were in no way autistic, and could possibly use some OT and speech therapy, but it was not serious.  So we did speech and OT for awhile, and both of those therapists were quite upfront in telling us that there were things our kids could work on, but they were very minor.  But W did go around saying she has "special needs" kids for awhile. 

And when the kids were about 6 months, they weren't breastfeeding.  W refused to give up, and rather than accept the issue was her body and not the kids, she listened to a quack lactation consultant (another profession that can prey upon worried mothers) , other mothers, social media, and a family member who said the issue was that the kids were "tongue tied".  Our pediatrician said that was a fad, and basically a crock of dung, and that while there are a few genuinely tongue tied kids, it was rare.  So we went to a different pediatrician, who pretty much diagnosed every kid as tongue tied, and did laser surgery to correct it. 

My take on both of these situations is that they had little to do with BPD and instead with a mother who is worried and unsure of herself.  And with a dad that has little experience in these things and would defer to "experts" and a W who has a degree in childhood development rather than trust his gut.

[Notwendy]

defer to "experts" and a W who has a degree in childhood development rather than trust his gut.

The only thing I can add to this is to consider trusting your gut more. Your wife may have studied child development but she also has a mental/emotional instability. I am glad this digestive issue is under medical supervision.

I also think your wife genuinely loves the children and also can be a concerned mother. One thing to keep in mind is that few people are all bad or all good. Family members with BPD have positive qualities, which likely attracted their partners to them. Few relationships are all bad or all good. The relationship dynamics are the issue and each person decides how much is manageable or not.

The Karpman triangle puts people in either victim, persecutor, or rescuer role. I think the predominant dynamic is BPD person in victim, partner or other family members in rescuer, however, most adults are not victims. There are only two real potential victims in the family and that is the children. They can't make choices for themselves. So if your wife can manage, great, but be cautious.

[maxsterling]

Today we did go visit my parents at a neutral park.  Kids and W all went.  W invited her friend and friend's daughter. 

I was quite happy to see my parents.  My mom looks much older than the last time I saw her.  Kids were happy to see them, too.  W?  She talked to them and was friendly.  I learned one of my mom's best friends of many years passed away two months ago, and generally felt bad about not being in touch more the past few years.  My parents are in no way bad people, despite what W may claim sometimes.

But beforehand, W was downright nasty to me.  Everything I did was wrong.  Criticized for everything, lectured, ordered.  I took WAY more than I have recently for the purpose of trying to understand the stress W is under and simply not wanting some kind of issue before seeing my parents that would complicate the day.  After the meeting was no different.  Impossible expectations of me, no-win situations, etc.

And when I say she was upset about everything - she cursed and screamed at me in the car (yes in front of the kids) because the route to get there went by the hospital that the kids were born in.  Mad at me for not taking us on another route, mad at me for explaining there is no other route, then mad at me for not warning her in advance of our route.  Then she made plans with her friend about lunch saying we would decide when we got to the park.  Two blocks from the park she was mad at me for not stopping for food on the way. 

Upon leaving, W cursed me out for not telling her I moved the car (no more than 50 feet from where it was).  I didn't even remember that I had moved it 4 hours prior.  Then the way home she had to tell me that my dad had said something that upset her.  The thing he said really was one of those things that would not be a big deal to 99%+ of the population (at least not one worthy of brining up).  Then she was mad at me because the sun was in her eyes and that I could not find another route where the sun was not in her eyes.  The way home was west, there was one road, and it was sunset.  The last 10 minutes home I nearly bit through my tongue listening to all this.

Right now she is mad because it was Sunday night, we hadn't gone food shopping for the week (in part because she spent hours wasting my time by picking fights with me), and I had to go out at 9:30.  Turns out the store closes at 10pm, so I went to another store, and it also closed at 10pm. So, I wound up at walmart rushing to buy what I could in an hour before they closed.  I wasn't able to get everything on her list, but most important was the breakfast shakes she wanted - or in her mind needed because she is unable to eat in the morning or prepare her own food (because the kitchen is too dirty, she says).  Lets not mention that she has the option of going out and getting her own breakfast shake..  So she is mad at me for not having time to find the shake she wanted because the store was closing - and I was there late because she spent so much of my time lecturing me on this or that.  Actually, what she is really mad at is me enforcing a boundary against abuse and telling her that I would not sit there while she continued insulting me for 15 minutes about the breakfast shake. 

All in all - I am glad I got to see my parents, glad my parents got to see my kids, and glad my kids got to see them.  Whether my W had a good time or not is not my business.  None of that is even remotely within my control.

[Notwendy]

Your posts remind me of my mother who will get angry if we get the soup with the wrong kinds of noodles in it or something like that. Sure, she could get her own, but she hasn't gone to the grocery store on her own for as long as I can recall. By high school, I was running to the store for her.

I am glad you saw your parents. Maybe next time, go on your own with the kids. Make it sound like you are doing her a favor- a day all to herself. Then you can have a peaceful time with them and not have to deal with this kind of thing when you do. But it's a big step that you saw them. I am sure they were happy to see you and the kids.

It was mutual dislike between my mother and my father's family- but they tolerated her and didn't say anything about her. It was after my father passed away and we were adults that I heard their side of things- and only because I asked.

On my mother's part, they were helpful  to her because we could go stay with them on school breaks. And it was wonderful for us too. The kids will get older- and able to do that at one point.

I can't drive in the car while my mother is yelling at me. It is distracting. I know you continued because you wanted to get to your parents. However, I get rattled when she does this. I pull over, stop the car and tell her I am turning around if she continues to yell,  because I can't concentrate on the road. It's worth a try- and stick to it if she continues. I don't live near her now so this doesn't happen often, but being in the car is an opportunity for this kind of thing as it's impossible to walk away and so you can consider this kind of boundary. It's not a boundary on her. It's an "I can't drive when you yell at me so I will stop the car and turn around". It's an action on your part.

[PeteWitsend]

...

All in all - I am glad I got to see my parents, glad my parents got to see my kids, and glad my kids got to see them.  Whether my W had a good time or not is not my business.  None of that is even remotely within my control.

Sounds like you weathered the storm as best as can be expected, with a pwBPD.  

Reading through this was painful!  I feel bad for you, your parents, and your kids, for what they've gone through.  It's tough for kids to make sense of these situations as well, because their inclination is to love and trust their parents, and grandparents; when there's conflict there, you can almost see how torn they feel.

Hopefully your parents understand and are sympathetic to your situation.  

In my own situation, I finally told some of my family members that had been on the receiving end of BPDxw's outbursts that I suspected she had a personality disorder and not to take anything from her personally.  And also that I understood they hadn't done anything wrong, and that I was not blaming them for the fighting.  

I was told that message was MUCH appreciated, and helped them deal with the random text-message bombs and unpredictable anger from my XW (she would start fights randomly, and sometimes seemed to almost go out of her way to engineer them, making a request for something, and then exploding when she didn't get a response as soon as she expected, or even if she did!)  At the time, I was unaware how much chaos BPDxw was attempting to sow.

[whirlpoollife]

I agree, reading through this was painful  I’m happy for you that you got to see your parents. It’s a start!   Next time , as Notwendy said , just you and kids. Not w and her friend and friends daughter. It was like everything she did for this day was a distraction from one nice thing that you wanted/needed.
But she wants this shake for her breakfast and you jump on it.
Parallel situation, my xh of 27 yrs never went to the grocery store to get something I needed. I had learned to don’t dare ask. 
One my thoughts prior to the road of divorce was looking at my past life accomplishments, what did I do?       I was a doormat for my spouse.

[maxsterling]

Parallel situation, my xh of 27 yrs never went to the grocery store to get something I needed. I had learned to don’t dare ask. 

My W will be out someplace, then send a text message of "is there anything you need while I am out?"

In my mind it is "if there is something I needed and did not get myself, I would have asked."

W will come back later and tell me how considerate she was and how I am not ever considerate of her because I don't ask her whet she needs when I go out.   If I don't - there is a reason for it and I am sure you all can relate.  If I ask, it never becomes easy, either it is not a quick conversation when I want to make a quick run to the store, or she comes back with a long list.  Or when I ask, something negative comes back in the reply, or perhaps the store is out of something or I don't have time, and then W is mad that I asked. 

The meeting with my parents actually turned out well.  It is the work leading up to it, the drive there, and the drive home that were exhausting.  I think W really did want to go, but she also wanted to complain about it and use it as a vehicle to insult/abuse me. 
 

[Bch42]

It’s great that you got to see your family. When we step away from it we realize how crazy this really is.

When we are in it, sometimes we don’t notice it because of the changes are so incremental. Then years later we wonder how we got there.

Again very similar. Text messages from BPDw, “do you want anything at the store?”  Multiple times. Such that it becomes annoying. And I say nicely, thanks honey if I wanted it I would ask you or would’ve gotten it. But I appreciate it. Then I hear about how helpful she always is.

But when you ask for something you actually want or need that really would help you, then you become a burden.

The other constant thing is, “are you OK?“ Multiple times. I mean like five times within 10 minutes. And I would say, yes I’m OK, but if you keep asking me if I’m ok I won’t be OK.

And this sounds weird, but obsessive thanking. Maybe that’s not BPD but just a personality trait. But I will be thanked 5 to 6 times within five minutes for something. And I will nicely say, you’ve already thanked me multiple times, I appreciate that. 

What’s hard is these people are usually very intelligent. And so it’s really a chess match. Which it shouldn’t be.

Every time you solve a problem, a new one comes up.

Years ago my wife told me that she thought I was drinking too much. Continual nagging about my drinking. Keep in mind, she drinks too . Then I thought, well maybe she’s right. So I stopped drinking for six months.

Things got actually got worse. Then drinking was not the excuse, but I was too demanding. Or Controlling, or on the go too much….

Constant complaining. About everything and everybody.

You cannot use logic. Every time you think you solve a problem a new one comes up.

I think the reason we stay in is because we sense progress. My wife threatened suicide the first year of marriage. She has never done that since so I thought things were getting better.

But the problems simply manifest themselves in different ways. But they’re always there.

[Manic Miner]

 I recently took a BPD weekend course. It was about how to speak to the BPD using dialectical behavioral therapy. DBT.
I quit halfway through. Because you become A caretaker, not a spouse. You have to measure carefully everything you say. You are taught to validate, but not agree with people. So they can say the most horrible hateful things to you, and your response is supposed to be “I see you’re very angry. That must be difficult for you”.

God bless anybody who is willing to so this. But you are truly sacrificing yourself. And I find it degrading.

Sorry for late reply, but I had to do it, because this man had a point. What I cited above is exactly how I feel and it shows what must be done in order to keep a bpd-relationship going on. For once, I don't want to be a caretaker or a punchbag of someone that refuses to see the problem and seek help.
Granted, not all bpd's are the same in rage/symptoms, some are high-functioning and have more calm/normal moments. We shouldn't generalize, but what Bch42 said above should be pointed out to anyone that tries to overcome the situation.

[maxsterling]

Sorry for late reply, but I had to do it, because this man had a point. What I cited above is exactly how I feel and it shows what must be done in order to keep a bpd-relationship going on. For once, I don't want to be a caretaker or a punchbag of someone that refuses to see the problem and seek help.
Granted, not all bpd's are the same in rage/symptoms, some are high-functioning and have more calm/normal moments. We shouldn't generalize, but what Bch42 said above should be pointed out to anyone that tries to overcome the situation.

Ever since I posted this a few months ago, that is where I have been.  I think one needs to think about what "functional" or "healthy" means to them when it comes to relationship.  For years (even though I was told better) I somehow felt that eventually my wife and I could get to a place that "worked" or was at least functional.  Now I know that just isn't possible.  I am going to have to put up with some amount of abuse as long as I am in this relationship.  Right now my W clais she is "getting better".  I certainly don't see it.  But to her, and probably to her Ts, she is "getting better" because she is doing more on her own and not suicidal.  I think that is what Ts aim for in their patients - if the patient gets to a place where they are not suicidal and function on their own, it is a success.  Same goes for us here.  If we get to a place of some kind of stability in our r/s where  we can resume some of our happy lives and avoid the worst of conflicts - that is a success, even if we feel more distant from our partners.  And we should also know that divorce/separation could also be considered a success.  I know if my wife and I separated, many family and friends would tell me congratulations on getting out of an abusive relationship.

[Couper]

I agree with everything in the last two posts.  For me, it chips away at my soul to think that the best anything will ever be is reprogramming myself so I can make life tolerable in the presence of someone that will never have the capacity to reciprocate in a healthy way.  It's a very lonely place to be.  Even if someone could wave a magic wand and make all of her problems go away, it's kind of like that saying about the plate that has been dropped and glued back together so many times.  All the cracks are still there. 

[15years]

Sometimes that feeling of loneliness really washes over me. Especially after a few calmer, less abusive days. Sometimes I miss the times when I was in the fog. I really believed that I had found my match, and was hoping for her strong emotions to disappear. I didn't consider if I was in a dysfunctional relationship. I didn't think twice about having children with her. In a way I miss that dumber version of me. But I also like the wiser version of me.

[Notwendy]

I think it's more about personal growth than to reprogram yourself. Learning relationship skills should not be about changing yourself- rather more about being authentic to yourself rather than bending to appease the partner.

Many books on relationships point out the concept that we tend to choose a person who "matches" us emotionally in some way. Who we are attracted to and who is attracted to us is complicated. Someone else may have felt initially attracted to a person but due to the dynamics, the relationship would not have lasted. How is it that these ones did? I realize that love bombing, or being young, could lead people into these relationships and to stay but then, some people have more than one relationship with a disordered person.

One thing I have read is that it can be a match of boundaries. Someone with emotionally healthier boundaries may not have felt a "fit".

It's also been written that if someone leaves a relationship without doing personal work, they are more likely to repeat the dynamics with someone else. The personal changes have a payoff for you, not the other person.

Each relationship is a unique combination of both people and other circumstances- finances, children, etc. Both leaving and staying are complicated choices.

And we should also know that divorce/separation could also be considered a success.

BPD is on a spectrum with some behaviors being more severe or present than others. Not all pwBPD are abusive, or have addictions.  These can be seen in pwBPD but even on their own, are major issues. It's not a failure if the relationship doesn't last. Each person makes the best decision for their particular situation.

[maxsterling]

Sometimes that feeling of loneliness really washes over me. Especially after a few calmer, less abusive days. Sometimes I miss the times when I was in the fog. I really believed that I had found my match, and was hoping for her strong emotions to disappear. I didn't consider if I was in a dysfunctional relationship. I didn't think twice about having children with her. In a way I miss that dumber version of me. But I also like the wiser version of me.

Wow.  This rings true with me. 

[maxsterling]

Many books on relationships point out the concept that we tend to choose a person who "matches" us emotionally in some way. Who we are attracted to and who is attracted to us is complicated. Someone else may have felt initially attracted to a person but due to the dynamics, the relationship would not have lasted. How is it that these ones did? I realize that love bombing, or being young, could lead people into these relationships and to stay but then, some people have more than one relationship with a disordered person.

In my case, it is more like the frog in the boiling water.  You go in slowly, no signs of trouble, then once you are in so far, what looks like the "best" or "easiest choice" is no longer clear and only gets one in deeper.  Dealing with a pwBPD can completely and quickly overwhelm your rational thought process.  If my now-wife had not moved in with me initially, 100% sure I would not be with her today.  But I offered her a place to live while she relocated to my city.  I expected her to get an apartment of her own after she got settled.  She had no intentions of ever moving out.  I excused the early conflict to her being stressed from moving to a new city and normal relationship adjustments.  6 months later she was in a psychiatric hospital, and since then it's been mostly FOG because deep down I know she can't take care of herself, and I would feel extremely guilty forcing that upon her. 

I assume with her previous r/s her partners bailed when they saw a way out because they saw the first signs of neediness, enmeshment and abuse.  I saw those, too, but somehow I thought I could manage those, and by the time I realized I couldn't all the doors out now feel like mazes.  For now, it seems like my best action is to have boundaries, be true to myself and my needs, know I am not being insensitive or hurtful, and let her decide if that is what she wants.  She can claim all day that I am being selfish and now I know I am not.

[Cat Familiar]

Max, it sounds like you are still orienting your life around what your wife wants. And as we know, pwBPD’s wants are mercurial and typically unmet, because they are looking for something to satisfy the emptiness within.

What do you want your life to look like?

What do you want your children’s lives to look like?

Is this a healthy environment for them to grow up in?

Why are her wants and needs more important than the wants and needs of three other people?

[FirstSteps]

I'm trying to really embrace the insights from Cat and notwendy.  I very much feel the emptiness of the calm days.  And I am very much rebelling against a lifetime of caretaking as the best case scenario.

I'm also very much realizing that I was in this relationship for a reason, and I definitely fed the chaos machine from my side just from my earnest caretaking and JADE-ing.  But I must have needed/wanted this on some deep level.

Things are suddenly good here at my house with my uPBDw saying all the right things.  I don't trust it, and I am working hard not to get swept away.  She just brought up moving all of us back to her home country, which sends up huge red flags.  Anyway, I'm just going to keep working on myself (and not agreeing to move) and see where it all lands.

[Every day]

The last few posts felt like you were all living in my head!  When I first realized what was going on with my uBPDh I told my therapist that it was really difficult for me (a strong-willed woman) to realize that I was tolerating treatment from my husband that I would never have imagined I would tolerate, and certainly wouldn’t advise anyone else to tolerate.  

It is lonely and even for people who know that my husband has issues, there is no way to explain the depth and complexity of the situation unless you have experienced it so it is emotionally very isolating.

The BPD often creates physical isolation AND the truth of it is that I have also created isolation because I don’t want to have to experience or explain to someone why my husband is “being like that.”

[maxsterling]

She just brought up moving all of us back to her home country, which sends up huge red flags.  Anyway, I'm just going to keep working on myself (and not agreeing to move) and see where it all lands.

That's more red flags than the Soviet Army.  I'm in a similar situation, and this is a line that I will not cross.  In my case, W sees our house as the source of most of her problems.  Of course I know this is not true, because she had problems before she moved in with me.  It's the reason the kids have toilet issues.  It's the reason she doesn't cook anymore.  It is the reason she is always in pain.  It's the reason for her headaches.  None of these are true, and I need to hold on to that.  I'm not against moving.  But I am against moving simply to satisfy her "complaint of the moment".  The basic facts are - house prices are so high now that whatever we could afford would be *barely* better than what we live in now, even with the sale of the current house to use as a down payment.  So W wants to sell now and rent.  Well, we can't rent anything better now for the same price we are paying in mortgage.  W doesn't understand that a house is a huge purchase, and making the wrong financial move in your late 40s is difficult to recover from.  I certainly am not willing to take the risk, especially with with a tenuous relationship.  I should also point out that W (and probably most pwBPD) see things opposite - that "external" things are the sources of problems and those need to be changed first to look at anything else.  For W - she says she can't work on our R/S unless we are moving to a bigger house.  I say I won't move into another house with her unless the r/s is better.

[FirstSteps]

That's why this site is so good - I need to hear that the flags are that red.  My therapist is adamant about this too - don't let her talk me into moving, especially out of the country.  I'm a citizen now of her home country, and I could work there - so it's not totally unrealistic.  But that's exactly what it is - externalizing her own inner problems.  And I can't do that to my kids.  And honestly to myself since I need calm to work on myself.

The funny thing is that she is the one who convinced me to move to the US to be by my family (who she now refuses to see) and then years later to buy our house in the middle of the pandemic (I own 100% that I agreed to the moves eventually).  I actually wanted to move either back to her country or closer to a city for years and she said no.  Now it's flipped and it's like I'm the one keeping her in small town American prison (we're still in a big urban area, just at the edge).  It's infuriating.

Anyway, thanks for the perspective.  I also relate to the house blaming.  My wife did that in our previous rental for years and years.  That's so tough to deal with.

[maxsterling]

That's why this site is so good - I need to hear that the flags are that red.  My therapist is adamant about this too - don't let her talk me into moving, especially out of the country.  

Ask yourself if this is a decision you can recover from.  Assume you move, and 2 years later you divorce, where does it leave you?  That's what makes it easier for me to draw the line.   

If she convinces you to buy new furniture, it's a financial loss of a few thousand.  If she convinces you to buy a new car, a few 10s of thousands.  Both of those could be bad decisions that you can recover from, and in the long run you still have the furniture or car. 

Moving is a different story - potentially you give up nearly everything if you move.  My sister was convinced to move to a different state by her NPD husband thinking it would improve their r/s.  3 years later, she got divorced but could not move out of state because of children.  Eventually she did get the court's permission to move back with the minor child, but her other two kids are over 18 and chose to remain out of state.  The same could happen to you. 

[15years]

I'm also worried about our living arrangement. We rent an apartment, and W has started to get frustrated about not owning a place, and she would like for us to move to a house. But at the same time she is quite satisfied with the work she's done with creating a beautiful home where we live now. Renting makes it easier to plan a separation, and I really don't have the motivation or the energy to buy a house with her. What would be the best way to communicate this to a pwBPD?

- Honestly tell her that I'm not motivated to buy a place when we are struggling in the r/s?  (She would probably tell me that my unwillingness to go forward is harming the r/s)
- Buy time by being passive? (While figuring out the future of our r/s)
- Tell her I love our current home? (I do like it but I wouldn't want to set foot there ever again tbh)

[Couper]

What would be the best way to communicate this to a pwBPD?

Separate of triggering some other issue (only you can say how she would react to this) buy yourself some time by telling her that homes are very expensive right now and you're waiting for the real estate market to crash.  Maybe "market correction" would be a more diplomatic term.

If you're seriously considering parting ways, don't buy anything.  You'll never recover the transactional expenses in the way of market appreciation in just a couple of years.  This is especially true with the looming downturn that is on its way.