Starting dating again...

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I don't know how to start dating again. How do you invite someone into your home who has the power to put you in jail with one statement to the police?

I'm so isolated it isn't funny. I have virtual work meetings throughout the day and see my child in the evenings. Outside of that, I'm too scared to engage with new people. I think I live on the borderline between paranoia and PTSD (joke). I bought two encrypted hard drives this week preparing for a police raid on my premises - I'm not going to make it easy for the police to go fishing through my private data.

Any tips on moving past this? How did you build trust in strangers?

[BigOof]

I don't know how to start dating again. How do you invite someone into your home who has the power to put you in jail with one statement to the police?

I'm so isolated it isn't funny. I have virtual work meetings throughout the day and see my child in the evenings. Outside of that, I'm too scared to engage with new people. I think I live on the borderline between paranoia and PTSD (joke). I bought two encrypted hard drives this week preparing for a police raid on my premises - I'm not going to make it easy for the police to go fishing through my private data.

Any tips on moving past this? How did you build trust in strangers?

[ForeverDad]

We understand your situation, your dilemma.  We've been there, done that.  But let's slow down and examine things a bit, okay?

My concern is this may be too soon for you.  I don't recall how long you've been separated but if you still have a divorce ahead of you then likely you'd have a hard time starting a close relationship on solid ground.

If you're pondering dating so soon, it's likely you'd enter into a rebound relationship and those don't generally turn out well.  It's just too soon.  On dates you're more likely to vent or sob all the problems you're dealing with now.  Typical advice would be to give yourself several months, at least, to recover a bit more before dating.  However, only you may be able to decide when you're truly ready to date again.

However, it's fine to build friendships through group gatherings, etc.  That's a good way to restart and avoid isolating oneself without wandering back into one-on-one or intimate scenarios before you're really ready.

Have you discussed this topic with your counselor?  Truly, having a counselor is good, just like counseling is good for kids.

[maxsterling]

What is your motivation for jumping right back into dating?  I think you should explore this first. 

I sometimes think about dating when/if my marriage is over.  I notice the "urge" would stem from "making up for lost time", and "exploring my new freedom".  Neither are good foundations for a new relationship.  Still, it might feel good to just go out with friends again and flirt a little.

[hands down]

I don't know how to start dating again. How do you invite someone into your home who has the power to put you in jail with one statement to the police?

I'm so isolated it isn't funny. I have virtual work meetings throughout the day and see my child in the evenings. Outside of that, I'm too scared to engage with new people. I think I live on the borderline between paranoia and PTSD (joke). I bought two encrypted hard drives this week preparing for a police raid on my premises - I'm not going to make it easy for the police to go fishing through my private data.

Any tips on moving past this? How did you build trust in strangers?

I’ve been there. Was facing 6 years…. It takes time…. I have my triggers and still to this day wonder if there could be more lies made up. I guess my only advice is the more you’re open and honest with your network of people the more it becomes apparent that it was in fact an anomaly. And also they can help you as a network as you bring new people into your life.

Also - it takes a lot of time.  I’d say therapy for PTSD as well. Itah HIGHLY likely you have it and understandably so

[BigOof]

Separated for 2.5 years.

...if you still have a divorce ahead of you then likely you'd have a hard time starting a close relationship on solid ground.

Agreed.

However, it's fine to build friendships through group gatherings, etc.  That's a good way to restart and avoid isolating oneself without wandering back into one-on-one or intimate scenarios before you're really ready.

Good advice, ForeverDad.

Have you discussed this topic with your counselor?

No. I have enough bags of worms open without getting into counseling on the next relationship.

[kells76]

FD has good advice:

build friendships through group gatherings, etc. 

An additional perspective on that relates to your concern:

How do you invite someone into your home who has the power to put you in jail with one statement to the police?

"Dating" someone one-on-one could provide a disordered person with the opportunity to present "their most appealing self" to you, with no other point of reference.

Observing people interacting in groups could give you a better sense of what kind of self they are. They're not just focused on being maximally appealing to one person with no other eyes on the situation.

A hobby-based or service-based group may also take the pressure off of people "performing" an appealing self. You can see what people do with conflict in the group (outdoor hiking group deciding which hike to do next), stressful/high pressure situations (maybe meeting a deadline for a service project like building a house), etc.

Finding situations where a potential partner of interest has their family (siblings, parents, cousins, etc) around can also be helpful. The way a potential partner treats family can sometimes be an indication of how they'd treat you (of course, not always). That kind of scenario (observing interactions with family members) might be more likely found in a church or spiritual group setting.

Seems important to me to be going in to a hobby, interest, service, or spiritual group setting with your priorities being (1) whatever the group's focus is, and (2) observing how "broadly normal" people behave. (2) especially may be helpful in recalibrating your feel for appropriate interactions and becoming more aware of red flags (like, what are the connections between behavior in public and someone who would put you in jail with one accusation -- not sayin there is or is not a connection, but it's possible to relearn some signs and recalibrate a sense of "normal-ish").

Nutshell version -- highly recommend NOT traditional 1x1 dating; rather, interest-based group settings.

[BigOof]

Watch how they treat their family and friends. No 1-one-1 dating. Very good advice, kells76.

[maxsterling]

Excellent advice, kells.

I didn't have much of a chance to observe how my W behaved towards friends/family before she (supposed to be temporary at the time) moved in with me.  Had we dated 6 months first and I could see how she was towards friends/family, the chance is we may have never gotten together. 

She "temporarily" moved in with me because she got into an argument with her dad.  Her dad can be abrasive, so at the time it seemed like W was a victim in that situation.  After 6 months with her, I was at the very beginning of seeing a pattern of how she really does not get along well with others.  Now I suspect that my W really was not the victim of the wrath of so many former "friends".  Those friends were probably just trying to end a toxic relationship.

[kells76]

Another thought on "dating" in group and/or family settings is:

You get to see how the person does when they're not the 100% focus of your attention all the time. Can they handle that you interact with other "potential partners"? Not that that's what you're doing, but if you're a man interested in a woman, and you have a neutral interaction with another woman in a group, how does your "date" respond? Or, if you're in a family-based setting -- for example, you're all at church, and you meet her cousin and chat for a while -- how does your "date" do with that?

Way, way back in my early 20s I dated someone where probably >50% of what we did was with either family or large groups. This showed us what the other person was like in "normal life", not just an "out to dinner" setting that can sometimes be artificial. Also, one of his younger brothers had developmental disabilities. I remember one time we were all set to do an outdoor thing, and last minute his mom asked if he'd take the brother along. The immature part of me was disappointed -- would the brother slow us down? -- but that memory has stuck with me because it showed me who my boyfriend at the time was, and he was the kind of guy to take care of family and not leave people out. Important stuff.

We're not together, but in a bizarre twist of fate, one of his other brothers ended up marrying the sister of my now-husband. Small world!

[HeWho]

Watch how they treat their family and friends. No 1-one-1 dating. Very good advice, kells76.

First time I truly thought about this. I have noticed that she had a fall out with her sisters and her best friend since childhood.

She also told me stories of how she fell out with friends that seemed a bit weird.

[thecrusader]

FD has good advice:

An additional perspective on that relates to your concern:

"Dating" someone one-on-one could provide a disordered person with the opportunity to present "their most appealing self" to you, with no other point of reference.

Observing people interacting in groups could give you a better sense of what kind of self they are. They're not just focused on being maximally appealing to one person with no other eyes on the situation.

A hobby-based or service-based group may also take the pressure off of people "performing" an appealing self. You can see what people do with conflict in the group (outdoor hiking group deciding which hike to do next), stressful/high pressure situations (maybe meeting a deadline for a service project like building a house), etc.

Finding situations where a potential partner of interest has their family (siblings, parents, cousins, etc) around can also be helpful. The way a potential partner treats family can sometimes be an indication of how they'd treat you (of course, not always). That kind of scenario (observing interactions with family members) might be more likely found in a church or spiritual group setting.

Seems important to me to be going in to a hobby, interest, service, or spiritual group setting with your priorities being (1) whatever the group's focus is, and (2) observing how "broadly normal" people behave. (2) especially may be helpful in recalibrating your feel for appropriate interactions and becoming more aware of red flags (like, what are the connections between behavior in public and someone who would put you in jail with one accusation -- not sayin there is or is not a connection, but it's possible to relearn some signs and recalibrate a sense of "normal-ish").

Nutshell version -- highly recommend NOT traditional 1x1 dating; rather, interest-based group settings.

While this is true, keep in mind, people with these disorders are usually quite skilled at putting on a good show.  I met my BPD with work - she was working for the engineering firm that was doing some work on our project.  We had lots of group interactions.  She didn't show much at that time - different person when alone.  Nonetheless, looking back at it, I did see red flags in the beginning.  The trick is close it off as soon as you see those red flags.  No benefit of the doubt, no thinking how you're going to "help" her.  This is one area I need to improve on dramatically. 

I think the real kicker is to make sure you're in a better place internally.  It doesn't have to be perfect, but make sure you're on track growing your own self-love.  Remember the mantra, "I love myself and I am enough."  When you're in a better place internally, you attract in better people.

[Notwendy]

I read something interesting in a book on relationships with pwBPD. It was in one of the last chapters. I am not single and not dating, but I read it out of curiosity. It was about boundaries and dating again.

I think boundaries are a key factor in how we match up with people, emotionally. Someone with healthy boundaries might initially be attracted to someone with BPD. They tend to behave better in a public setting, however, soon the person with healthy boundaries would feel a sense of discomfort with someone who did not have healthy boundaries. It would not be an emotional fit and likely not last beyond a few dates.

We talk about obvious red flags, but not the sense of discomfort we may have ignored but I bet it was there, or perhaps people whose boundaries are not normal at all might have not been aware of it. Or a sense of "fit" because of having grown up in a family with dysfunction, and it felt familiar, but a person with healthy boundaries would not have felt that.

So once out of a hurtful relationship, we would tend to be guarded. Yet, healthy boundaries are not too weak or too strong. Being defensive isn't a normal boundary. People who respect boundaries would sense that a person isn't emotionally available and respect that boundary. So after a relationship ends, if a person hasn't recovered and worked on their part of that, they may not be emotionally ready. People with healthy boundaries will respect that. So who will the still hurting person attract? People who don't respect boundaries.

Emotional recovery takes time. It's been said if someone ends a relationship and enters another one without working on their part in the dysfunction and emotionally recovering, they risk repeating the patterns with someone else. This idea of boundaries is one explanation I found for that.

Yes, look for red flags, but it's more about your own emotional recovery and healthy boundaries. If you get yours to be more on track then likely to match with someone more on track too. This isn't a never date again warning, it's a suggestion that having been in a dysfunctional relationship probably requires some self work.

[kells76]

From Bill Eddy:

https://www.highconflictinstitute.com/podcast-episodes/dating-radar-your-blind-spots

Will be interested to hear what you guys think.

[ForeverDad]

(1)Low self-esteem
a lot of us feel some of the time like we're not worthy or there's something wrong with us or, "Why would that person I'm attracted to go for somebody like me?" And so low self-esteem really can affect not only your expectations, but also your behavior. So you may put out signals that, "You can take advantage of me because I don't feel like I have many choices."

(2)Loneliness and/or grieving
They're grieving the loss, death of a loved one, death of the dream. And suddenly they're lonely. And so there's often the feeling that, "I really have to have somebody to complete myself. I'm not okay just being alone." ... And in many ways the solution is get some counseling, work on yourself so you feel whole before you're looking for somebody else. And so you're a whole person looking for another whole person.

"Accept that be being alone is better than being abused and lonely."

(3)Naive beliefs
The culture tells us time and love will heal all problems. And when you're dealing with a high conflict person, they often have an enduring pattern of behavior. And so time and love aren't going to have an impact on how they behave.

And the reality is you're not going to change the person... You don't change someone's adult personality. They have to do that and rarely do people do.

But we don't want you to have to be their therapist. That's something their therapist should work on.

The last of these naive beliefs is mistaking warning signs for love.

[ThanksForPlaying]

I have noticed that she had a fall out with her sisters and her best friend since childhood. She also told me stories of how she fell out with friends that seemed a bit weird.

Cutting family and friends out of one's life seems to me to be an indicator of PD.

1) Others cut them off. Ironically, NC is one of the main ways for Nons to handle a BPD relationship (even though it's not usually what the Non would choose). Because of this, pwBPD may have a handful of estranged relationships just from others cutting them off.

2) They paint others black. There is a whole range of ways to deal with "bad" or less than ideal relationships. Think of a 0 to 10 scale of friendship. Nons are able to juggle relationships mostly in the 2 to 8 range - some friends are closer than others while people you don't really like, or have grown apart from, become distant friends (lower on the scale). Black and white thinking leads pwBPD to put friends in the 0 or 10 category, with failed relationships accumulating in the 0 category. Us Nons may be the current 10, or have been at one time.

I agree with you that a number of NC relationships with family or ex-friends can be a red flag.

Example - My grandmother had a sister who lived nearby that she never talked to, even until death. She occasionally told stories about this sister - nice stories! But was totally NC. It was just known and accepted that that's the way it was. Other than that, grandma seemed fairly normal and loving to me as a child. Several years ago, I was discussing with my dad my own BPD relationship. He wanted to know more about BPD, so I gave him Stop Walking on Eggshells. He said he noticed several other traits that fit his mother (she had died a few years before he read Eggshells).

So yes, I think one or more NC relationships with close family members or once-close friends for vague and mysterious reasons can be an indicator.

Of course Nons may have NC relationships with a pwBPD, but we are usually able to explain "yes, I went NC with a pwBPD and that's why". pwBPD will often have a less clear, or more complex "explanation" for the failed relationship.

[PeteWitsend]

I don't know how to start dating again. How do you invite someone into your home who has the power to put you in jail with one statement to the police?

...

Any tips on moving past this? How did you build trust in strangers?

Honestly, I wouldn't worry so much about the jail thing... not to trivialize it, but how common is it to meet someone who would do that kind of thing?  It takes a really depraved personality to not only lie, but lie to the police... for the express purpose of getting someone thrown in jail. 

As someone getting out of a r/s with a borderline, you need to consider that you might have some issues about yourself or your personality that lead you to - or attract - relationships with people who may not be mentally stable.  And that's the bigger concern.  Maybe you have some of your own issues to explore and boundaries to develop? 

The concern about attracting problem cases was huge for me, especially since I reached out to an old flame a few months after I separated from BPDxw, and... to make a long story short, realized THAT old flame may have been on the spectrum as well (when we caught up, I saw the red flags I missed years before: she was estranged from several family members.  she had a string of failed relationships - some that lingered on for years - that were all the other party's fault for ending them.  and one of her parents was alcoholic & she grew up in a home with frequent mental and physical abuse). 

That told me I really needed to be careful.  I did not want to end up in hell again, and I was attracting, for better or for worse, women that came with too much mental and emotional baggage.  At least the second time around, I recognized this better, and quickly went NC with that old flame when the negativity started.

You know the now... insecurity, jealousy, quick-temper, etc. etc. There's no excuses for these, and even though nobody's perfect, you need to give a relationship time to see whether these issues are persistent and extreme. 

As far as building trust in strangers... it's just a matter of taking your time, and keeping your distance - emotionally, if not physically - as you do, to avoid getting enmeshed too soon, or roped in before you really learn you can trust that person. 

I think too, trust is something that comes when the proverbial "cameras are off" so to speak.  By that, I mean anyone can come off as trustworthy when they know they're being judged.  And "lovebombing" and what not are hallmarks of BPDers.  They almost try to convince you they love you and are trustworthy way too fast, so they can convince you to drop your defenses. 

There's really no shortcut to building trust.  You need to be with someone long enough to see how they treat you day in and day out.  You need to see how they treat their friends and family members (and kids and ex-spouse if they have them), and how their past relationships started and ended. 

[livednlearned]

Dating after a BPD divorce is a lot about rebuilding trust in yourself.

A good place to start is Attached: The New Science of Adult Relationships.

You'll probably uncover a lot with a counselor about how you got into a toxic/abusive relationship. The book is a good companion to therapy and shines light on troubling patterns to help you spot red flags better.

During a high-conflict divorce, your attention on the well-being of your child will likely take over the necessary attention needed to establish a new relationship. These are hard divorces.

Somewhere on the site is the recommendation to take two months to heal for every year of marriage/dating (when it's a BPDx).

The one bright side of these flaming infernos is the opportunity to effect real change in yourself, overhauling the family script so you'll be able to raise an emotionally resilient child who doesn't repeat the pattern.