Need advice on next step - after fight with spouse, have kids

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I am in over a decade and a half relationship with my spouse that checks almost all boxes for BPD traits but has not sought help. She had childhood abuse/trauma.
I am generally patient and tolerant. I grew up at a step-parent’s house and have experience taking verbal/some physical abuse (not sexual abuse) for long. I say this because I feel that I was primed for taking abuse and it resumed with my spouse. I was diagnosed with depression as a young adult. I am medication for almost a decade now and resumed talk therapy last year. While I have propensity for depression, my relationship is the primary cause for depression for long now.
My relationship has always be in state of tension. Splitting, emotional dysregulation, uncontrolled anger, deep distrust are all involved. We have young kids. It has taken me years to finally understand her condition.
Couple of months back - when she couldn't handle one of kids' special educational needs and wanted him out of home into an educational facility, I took a decision and rented a nearby second home (apt) for me and him to live separately and I take care of him. This is the first time I took a major decision that is different from what she wanted. Subsequently, we worked out an arrangement where my son and I live in apt during weekdays and we go home during weekend to be with her and other kid during weekend. Both kids attend the same school and commute to school together.
Here is what I want long-term: I want kids to have as-much-as-possible a stable life. I have not pursued divorce as an option as she doesn't work (she quit almost a decade back and has not been able to get back to work due to her total isolating nature). And also, I dread co-parenting with her after a divorce and I am afraid that kids would be impacted. She had asked for divorce multiple times during episodes and pushed me very close to filing at once. In the past year, I have lost hope that she would ever seek help. While I dread living with her during my sunset years, I am not for divorce until kids are grown up. I find the two home situation as workable solution, though it may deplete me financially.
Now - we had a fight last week (rather she got upset with me). She didn't want me in the home anymore. She is taking exams for her school. So I offered to watch the kids and the kids are with me for past few days.
Here are my challenges:
- I am so conflict avoidant. I am having anxiety about how to proceed with her. When she becomes free next week, I am worried that she is going to come full force into conflict (which may or may not happen). While I can stay silent, I am not good at boundaries.
- I am slowly learning about boundaries in the past couple of months and trying to set small ones (have a long way to go). I have been under stress for so long, it is not easy for me.
- Here is my MAIN fear: When I used to be by her side, I would manage her fears/emotions and avoid escalations. Now I am being away, I am worried that her thinking would be out of control and what it would bring.
What are some of the tools/techniques that I could use in this situation? Please advise on what steps that I could take. I feel a bit more confident now with an apt available for me to live (compared to before when I was forced out to live in a hotel for a week twice before she calmed down). I have decided that I would leave home if she gets very angry - that is a step that I can take and want to take (I generally try to diffuse situation, walking away will be a new big step for me). This recovery/improvement journey is new for me, so every small nugget will help. I am so glad that I found this community.

[healthfreedom4s]

I am in over a decade and a half relationship with my spouse that checks almost all boxes for BPD traits but has not sought help. She had childhood abuse/trauma.
I am generally patient and tolerant. I grew up at a step-parent’s house and have experience taking verbal/some physical abuse (not sexual abuse) for long. I say this because I feel that I was primed for taking abuse and it resumed with my spouse. I was diagnosed with depression as a young adult. I am medication for almost a decade now and resumed talk therapy last year. While I have propensity for depression, my relationship is the primary cause for depression for long now.
My relationship has always be in state of tension. Splitting, emotional dysregulation, uncontrolled anger, deep distrust are all involved. We have young kids. It has taken me years to finally understand her condition.
Couple of months back - when she couldn't handle one of kids' special educational needs and wanted him out of home into an educational facility, I took a decision and rented a nearby second home (apt) for me and him to live separately and I take care of him. This is the first time I took a major decision that is different from what she wanted. Subsequently, we worked out an arrangement where my son and I live in apt during weekdays and we go home during weekend to be with her and other kid during weekend. Both kids attend the same school and commute to school together.
Here is what I want long-term: I want kids to have as-much-as-possible a stable life. I have not pursued divorce as an option as she doesn't work (she quit almost a decade back and has not been able to get back to work due to her total isolating nature). And also, I dread co-parenting with her after a divorce and I am afraid that kids would be impacted. She had asked for divorce multiple times during episodes and pushed me very close to filing at once. In the past year, I have lost hope that she would ever seek help. While I dread living with her during my sunset years, I am not for divorce until kids are grown up. I find the two home situation as workable solution, though it may deplete me financially.
Now - we had a fight last week (rather she got upset with me). She didn't want me in the home anymore. She is taking exams for her school. So I offered to watch the kids and the kids are with me for past few days.
Here are my challenges:
- I am so conflict avoidant. I am having anxiety about how to proceed with her. When she becomes free next week, I am worried that she is going to come full force into conflict (which may or may not happen). While I can stay silent, I am not good at boundaries.
- I am slowly learning about boundaries in the past couple of months and trying to set small ones (have a long way to go). I have been under stress for so long, it is not easy for me.
- Here is my MAIN fear: When I used to be by her side, I would manage her fears/emotions and avoid escalations. Now I am being away, I am worried that her thinking would be out of control and what it would bring.
What are some of the tools/techniques that I could use in this situation? Please advise on what steps that I could take. I feel a bit more confident now with an apt available for me to live (compared to before when I was forced out to live in a hotel for a week twice before she calmed down). I have decided that I would leave home if she gets very angry - that is a step that I can take and want to take (I generally try to diffuse situation, walking away will be a new big step for me). This recovery/improvement journey is new for me, so every small nugget will help. I am so glad that I found this community.

[Rev]

Hey HF4

Welcome !  Sorry for where you find yourself. Happy you found us.

I'll just take some time to really think into your words here. In the meantime I just wanted to honor what I am sensing is a very kind man with a big heart. 

Hang in there. There's lot's of wisdom here. You're not alone.

I try to touch base in a couple of days.

Rev

[healthfreedom4s]

Hello Rev,

Thanks for the warm welcome. Your kind words means a lot to me in this time of distress.

I appreciate that you are going to mull over my situation.

[healthfreedom4s]

Update: She is done with her exam today. She told kids today that they would stay with me until coming Friday as she originally asked for. She was talking to kids calmly (though she did do some trash talk of me). She told my younger one that I would take him to a 3-hr long Dr appt/test (without saying that she would join - which she originally planned for before the latest episode happened).
This is all a bit surprise for me - the calmness/firmness with the separation and sounding to kids as if we are separated.
I am okay with if she handles it with the same calmness and we co-parent in two homes as separated couple. But I am worried about what to expect next. My worry is she would try to cause pain/financial waste for me while I try to work full-time and also take care of kids the coming week (she just told them I should get new clothes for them at the apt while there are enough clothes at home).
This is all new to me in the 15+ years, so I am nervous and don't know what to expect. I have always been her side and managed the situation and her emotions. I realize that I need to train myself and manage my anxiety. Please share your thoughts.

[ForeverDad]

Here in remote peer support we don't know your spouse, we only know what you share on an anonymous basis.  One aspect I'll comment on...  people with BPD (pwBPD) are predictably unpredictable.  I know that doesn't make common sense but it means you can predict she will be unpredictable.  That's part of the control she has over you, you are always waiting on edge for the next incident.

How would you describe your spouse as to parenting?  I sense she depends on you to do most of it?  Also, does she view the kids as extensions of herself?

Why I asked... A common pattern for many mothers is that they feel they need to control the children.  While that may be fine while they're little and need to be fed and diapers changed, as the children grow they will over time seek more and more independence in their lives.  That will clash with a controlling parent.

A stable life for the kids means they will need as much time with you as a parent.  You living life in a separate home is actually wise.  There was a book in the mid-80s (Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce) that quoted, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one." <--link

We will be here with you and prepared for your queries as you venture down this path before you.

[healthfreedom4s]

Thank you ForeverDad.

I appreciate your inputs. You are right - pwBPD is unpredictable. When faced with absolute uncertainty with her, I have sometimes journaled all possible outcomes and mentally prepared myself. I guess I just need to do the same now. It would give me a sense of control.
 
On her parenting - she would normally do most of all INSIDE home - cooking for them, doing their laundry, packing school lunch/snacks. I take care of things OUTSIDE of home - taking them to classes, to neighborhood play, to Dr appts, to outings (museums etc).
She does view the kids as extensions of herself. She doesn’t appreciate when older one expresses any opinion that is different from hers. With her expectations that people around her to be a carbon copy of her, it is going to be challenging in the coming years as they go into teens.
I too believe that a second home will provide some stability for them. I have begun on that journey, I think I need to weather this period during which we establish as the new normal. I know there will still be some amount of tension in co-parenting with pwBPD.
Thanks so much for your inputs and support. It means a lot to me.

[ForeverDad]

Be especially careful how you console the children.  Some seemingly nice comments can be invalidating.  One example, "... but your mother loves you".  If they've just experienced a parent's poor behaviors or even bordering on abusive, comments like that invalidate their growing natural sense of right and wrong.  Rather, you need to validate what they've experienced, observed or related to you.

How to identify validation versus invalidation?  There are articles on validation, boundaries and more over on our Tools and Skills workshops board. <--link

[Rev]

Please share your thoughts.

Hi again,

You are getting great advice from FD here, and I must confess I am not often on this board. So I am a little out of my depth.  And so I won't step in his way.

What I might add is this - have you noticed the following:

- Feelings of guilt or shame after having put down a boundary to give yourself space to think.

- Worry about what others may be thinking about your family and your situation?

- Energy drops when you second guess yourself.

- Feelings of deep sadness.

- Something else along these veins.

Relationships with people who are mood disordered can be, as you well know, very confusing. The can in fact impact our nervous systems because they mess with our perception of things as they are. We can be in a constant state of rethinking things to the point that we don't know what to think.

FD has given you some great signposts - markers - to help guide your actions. The piece that I am adding is that of self-compassion. Honour your own struggle and your own efforts. If you were to read your own words as if they were the words of someone else, what you write to that person to encourage them to hang in there, so to speak?

Could you do that for yourself - write a letter to yourself for encouragement?

Just a thought that came to mind.

Hope that helps.

Rev

[healthfreedom4s]

Be especially careful how you console the children.  Some seemingly nice comments can be invalidating.  One example, "... but your mother loves you".  If they've just experienced a parent's poor behaviors or even bordering on abusive, comments like that invalidate their growing natural sense of right and wrong.  Rather, you need to validate what they've experienced, observed or related to you.

How to identify validation versus invalidation?  There are articles on validation, boundaries and more over on our Tools and Skills workshops board. <--link

ForeverDad, your input was very timely. My wife has started trash talking about me with my older one - that I would abandon them, I am not trustworthy, I would bring women into my apt etc. Like you said, I have always been until now saying that ‘mom is just angry, she means well’.
I would have ignored her trash talk had you not mentioned this. I realized that he would start believing whatever he is being told (given that we had always given so much deference to her words all the time).
I spoke to him about how much I have done for the family and that I would continue to support them and take care of them. He said ‘I don’t know who is right here and who is wrong here’ - and started crying. It broke my heart and started crying. I asked him to see for himself on what I do and decide. I don’t know how much a 9 YO can process all of this.
I am going to work on the validation part. Thanks so much for timely inputs.

[healthfreedom4s]

Hi again,

You are getting great advice from FD here, and I must confess I am not often on this board. So I am a little out of my depth.  And so I won't step in his way.

What I might add is this - have you noticed the following:

- Feelings of guilt or shame after having put down a boundary to give yourself space to think.

- Worry about what others may be thinking about your family and your situation?

- Energy drops when you second guess yourself.

- Feelings of deep sadness.

- Something else along these veins.

Rev

Hello Rev, thanks for the pointers. I curse myself very frequently for the decision that I made to move forward with this relationship over 15 years back. There were red flags but I ignored them (my younger self knew nothing about personality disorder). I was naive. I wanted to be a rescuer I think. I compare my decision to a guy that who never drank but drank one day, wrecked the car and messed up his life. So the guilt is about the old decision and not any recent action.
I don’t worry too much about others as mine is an isolated life anyway and I have kept my work life at arms distance.
In short - yes I am experiencing guilt and sadness.
I will work on practicing self-compassion. Thanks so much for your inputs.

[healthfreedom4s]

Here is the update: As I mentioned above, my pwBPD has started lying (which she believes as truth in her mind) and trash-talking about me with my older one. And she is ramping up talk of splitting with my kids. And she is texting me stuff to cause more expenses (that I need to buy clothes for them separately. That I need to move to larger Apt as I would have both kids every other week. If I don’t do, she would report to my landlord). I am selectively replying to only that are of substance.
I want the two home setup to continue for now. But my pwbpd doesn’t see it that way. For her, it is a crisis that needs to be immediately solved. And the impact on kids breaks my heart.
I feel I am in a very difficult juncture.
- I want to compromise with her to stop the bleeding. I feel difficult to handle her actions and I am anxious. My main worry is - if it escalates and lawyer gets involved, the little money we have will be gone.  But I  feel certain in my mind that I need to live separate.
- I also wonder if there will ever be a painless split from pwBPD. All I can do is buy time at this time and prepare for a spilt (in 1 year or 10 years).
Please share your thoughts.

[Rev]

Here is the update: As I mentioned above, my pwBPD has started lying (which she believes as truth in her mind) and trash-talking about me with my older one. And she is ramping up talk of splitting with my kids. And she is texting me stuff to cause more expenses (that I need to buy clothes for them separately. That I need to move to larger Apt as I would have both kids every other week. If I don’t do, she would report to my landlord). I am selectively replying to only that are of substance.
I want the two home setup to continue for now. But my pwbpd doesn’t see it that way. For her, it is a crisis that needs to be immediately solved. And the impact on kids breaks my heart.
I feel I am in a very difficult juncture.
- I want to compromise with her to stop the bleeding. I feel difficult to handle her actions and I am anxious. My main worry is - if it escalates and lawyer gets involved, the little money we have will be gone.  But I  feel certain in my mind that I need to live separate.
- I also wonder if there will ever be a painless split from pwBPD. All I can do is buy time at this time and prepare for a spilt (in 1 year or 10 years).
Please share your thoughts.

Here are my thoughts on the following -

- I want to compromise with her to stop the bleeding. I feel difficult to handle her actions and I am anxious. My main worry is - if it escalates and lawyer gets involved, the little money we have will be gone.  But I  feel certain in my mind that I need to live separate.

That's a very natural reaction and also one that is very responsible. I applaud you for that. So many men would have bailed long ago.  I want to honor that. And what I will add is to focus on that word - "com-promise". See how I divided it on purpose?  The reframe becomes this - Compromise is a word that we often take to say "give a little to get a little" which as you have discovered becomes a slippery slope. Don't beat yourself up there, because in one sense allowing yourself to "slide" may have been the right thing to do at the time. Now you appear to be feeling different - as in you have a new clarity. Com-promise means - "promise together"...  When I offer that to you, how does it resonate?

I also wonder if there will ever be a painless split from pwBPD. All I can do is buy time at this time and prepare for a spilt (in 1 year or 10 years).

For the sake of brevity - I will simply say "no" - it can't be painless. The amount of suffering it causes is contingent, at least in part, are your ability to be a) self-compassionate and b) continue to do right by your children. You would do well to offer her the space to do the same for herself ... or not.

Again, how does that resonate for you?

Hang in there. You are doing great even if it may not feel like it.

Rev

[healthfreedom4s]

Hello Rev,

Thank you for continuing to offer your inputs and supporting me. I appreciate it.

Com-promise means - "promise together"...  When I offer that to you, how does it resonate?

You are right, it is not a "com-promise". It is more of giving in. She won't commit to anything. Only thing I could expect is - her coming down from her high emotional state.
Here is my main reason for talking about compromise. Her distortion of reality to my older one (saying your dad has abandoned all of us, he is not trustworthy) is causing a lot of angst for me. I want to engage with her with the following changes - 1) my living separate gives a lot of confidence to surgically engage with her (and not 24 hours) 2) my focus on boundaries.
I just want to continue the two home setup and have some stable life for the kids. We have kinda established that two home is a new normal. I want to be gradual in changes. I want to avoid a contentious divorce, severely impacting kids in the process. I know it is very unpredictable with pwBPD. My mere absence will let her run amok on her distrust, I know it is new -ve in this situation. I will let you all know how situation and my response evolves.

The amount of suffering it causes is contingent, at least in part, are your ability to be a) self-compassionate and b) continue to do right by your children. You would do well to offer her the space to do the same for herself ... or not.

The two factors that you listed are spot on. I think I will evolve/mature and my response to do right by my kids will also adapt. I don't see full disengagement from her as a choice, if I want to do right by my children. I think I need to self-compassionate, work my strength mind-muscles and maintain my boundaries. I will work on them.
Thank you again!

[Rev]

Hey HF4

No problem!  Continue to reach out.

I would love to hear what Forever Dad is thinking about your plans, which to me sound super creative and innovative and so will help your kids adapt and evolve. They are lucky to have you as a Dad.

Happy to continue listening.

Rev

[healthfreedom4s]

It has been a month since my last post - here are some updates:
- I continue to live in the apt while my wife lives at home. Most weeks, kids spend weekdays at home (while I visit them in the evening and spend few hours with them at home) and weekends with me at apt. During her exam week, they spend weekdays with me.
- There is some amicability in matters of parenting.
- There were not much angry episodes from her. She sometimes did trash talk about me with kids or took swipes at me. If it had been the past, I would have tried to explain things to her. "Don't JADE" is such a valuable advice from this forum. I keep quiet now.
- But I am focused on what I want and ensuring my boundaries. I let go off of other things.
- "BIFF" is also a great communication approach that I learnt from here. In the past, I would start from periphery and take time to get to the core message. With her BPD, she would run wild with her imagination [I was awestruck realizing recently that in her world "my action/communication most of the times had a distant second/third motive"]. Now, I am trying BIFF - it makes such a difference.

I want to continue the two home setup, without going into divorce until kids are grown up. I was worried how she would react if I told her my decision to extend the apt lease (that she would take it as my step towards divorce). Surprisingly, she said today the two home setup makes her feel better without my judgment and having to worry about me.
- Her agreement with two home setup was a positive [I was going to do it anyway. I am feeling happy about becoming firm with that boundary]
- But her tirade after that quashed any hope that she would seek help and improve her well being. She told me earlier in the day that she is considering going on medication for anxiety (She had met a psychiatrist couple of times several years back. She couldn't handle the initial side effects of medication, she gave up). I told her that it will be better if she schedules her second session with therapist that she met two months back for the first time (her therapist rightly found her automatic negative thoughts and had given her a CBT exercise to work with - in the FIRST session). I also explained to her how CBT helped with my own depression. That ticked her off. She started saying that her situation is much worse than mine and I would have fared worse if it was my situation and I had it easy.. This has been a constant theme for many years - However considerately I approached, I have felt my helping hand bitten.
- And that 'I have a fixed negative judgment about her' and quoted what I said 15 years back about her interpersonal difficulties (When we got married and started life together, my larger social circle came in conflict with her personality. And I was giving up things quickly and commented about her interpersonal challenges in frustration). Since then, I have been either silent, gone with what she wanted or enabled her by making my social life disappear altogether. It was amazing how she fails to notice how much I changed in the past 15 years. It is like her memory froze fifteen years back. And I felt the irony with her comment that I have 'fixed negative judgment'.
- I told her that even if we were to split, I would work it out to leave the home for her and kids [I am trying to calm her imagination about my motive with the two home setup. I know I am giving away more but I want to do right by the kids. My living separate is difficult enough for the kids. I want to ensure the stability of home at this time].

In summary, I am getting a bit of confidence that I can continue the two home setup. It will be a win if I could continue it without too much of conflict (some amount of it is unavoidable). But the possibility of she getting help looks remote. It reinforces the need for me to have a separate place of stability and do my best in ensuring that my kids' worldview doesn't get too distorted and they build a good view of life and the world around them.

Thanks so much for all your tools, inputs and support - they continue to equip and enrich me. Please share your thoughts on the behaviors that I have underlined.
Also, please feel free to share your thoughts on my approach.

[Mommeredith81]

Hi - I just read your first post quickly. First of all, renting a separate apt., etc. is a creative idea that's different from what most of us think of in marriage/family, but it isn't wrong -- in fact, you did the best thing you did in the circumstances. We're all used to thinking of things the way society wants you to. It sounds like you are tapdancing to keep everyone healthy and safe. You are a good dad.

Disordered people make us question our judgment 1,000 ways. I can see you are doing that. But you have a kid with special needs, another kid without, and you want to protect both from abuse, mood swings, and give them stability.

With divorce does come custody changes, so if you can safely keep everyone together with boundaries and schedules like the ones you've come up with, that's great. You're also setting a pattern of taking care of the kids, if custody ever did come up.

So, without having seen a lot of the subsequent posts, I just wanted to say, hang in there. You don't have to solve every problem in one day. Keep setting boundaries and keep planning.

[ForeverDad]

Always remember that leaving the family home does not mean leaving the kids behind.  They are not like furniture stuck there.

If/when you do decide to legally formalize the separation or shift into divorce, you want to have already have upped your parenting, including overnights, to as much as possible, majority time is a great goal but even 50-50 is way better than alternate weekends which many court are okay with.

If you're getting all weekends, that's good too but be aware most courts do want both parents to have (alternating) weekends to reduce friction when planning family events and activities on weekends.  So be aware of that risk later on.

All standard schedules factor in alternate weekends.  Most common are two:  (1) Non-primary parent getting alternating weekends and maybe an overnight in between or (2) equal time such as a 2-2-3 schedule.  Doesn't mean you're stuck with them, courts do allow variations based on each family's circumstances, but those are time-tested defaults.

Always, always accept more parenting time whenever she's having a rough time with the kids.  Best to have email or text trails so you can keep a private log documenting that in case needed later to prove the extent of your parenting.

I recall only one time when a new member here lamented his ex-spouse wouldn't take her court ordered parenting time.  I believe we all replied that's a good thing, the stable parent can parent so much better than the unstable or struggling parent.

[Rev]

Always, always accept more parenting time whenever she's having a rough time with the kids.  Best to have email or text trails so you can keep a private log documenting that in case needed later to prove the extent of your parenting.

I recall only one time when a new member here lamented his ex-spouse wouldn't take her court ordered parenting time.  I believe we all replied that's a good thing, the stable parent can parent so much better than the unstable or struggling parent.

For so many reasons, too many that I won't get into here because I could write a book, I want to affirm these statements.

In the divorce with the mother of my now diagnosed bi-polar adult daughter, there are so many things I would have done differently where custody was concerned. It was at a time and place where men just weren't factored in the parenting scheme in a way that honoured what I was bringing to the table. My wife, who I later discovered hid her hypochondria from me, ghosted my daughter in her mid teens and I didn't intervene strongly enough.

So I'd like to honour your efforts and presence as a "good dad" independently of what your wife is like as a mother.

Hang in there,

Rev 

[healthfreedom4s]

Mommeredith81, ForeverDad and Rev, thanks so much for your inputs and support.

ForeverDad, Your inputs on parenting schedule really hit me. I have started thinking hard about it the past few days. As someone new to all of this, I had not considered that aspect.
With the two home setup that I had established (which my pwBPD doesn't fully understand or support, so an area of disagreement), I was readily agreeing to my pwBPD wherever I could have areas of agreement [I am working on understanding boundaries now - I will work to implement them]. Your inputs are timely and valuable.
I will report progress. I am new to being a full time single parent, I am upping my cooking and other skills - they will be a factor in my progress.

Thanks again!