Navigating new territory with D13

[EyesUp]

Hi Everyone.

It's been about 6 months since I last posted.  This forum was incredibly helpful to me while navigating the end of my marriage and divorce process with my uPDXW.

The D was finalized in Feb22, so that aspect is relatively new. We'd previously stipulated to 50/50 parenting time, which has now been formally incorporated with the final agreement and approved by the judge. The nisi period will be over in 30 days, at which point we'll have the decree absolute.

We have three kids, D7, D11, and D13. More recently, I've noticed changes in D13's behavior and I fear that unmitigated alienation behaviors are in play. So I've returned here with a new focus on my relationship with D13.

My XW was originally supposed to have the kids for April vacation (this week). Some time ago, she asked me if I would take the kids for half of the week. She also cancelled their planned trip to the Caribbean.

I gladly changed my plans to be with the kids, and arranged to take them to NYC (they've never been before) in order to begin to make the most of the vacation.

This is new for the kids - we've spent plenty of time together 1:1 without mom, but vacations and short trips without mom (or without dad) are new.  We did take a trip together last summer - 2 nights in VT, and it went well - although D13 was anxious before that trip, too.  D13 has been diagnosed with anxiety and has been seeing counselors on and off for 5 years.  She is seeing a counselor now who is aware of the history, but has not witnessed some of her more extreme responses due to 100% remote sessions...

At today's transition to me, D13's behavior dramatically escalated.  When we got home (I kept the marital home), D13 stated she would not go to NYC tomorrow, that she hates me, that I don't care about her, never did, she doesn't want to have anything to do with me, etc.

I responded with some parenting jiu-jitsu statements and declined to board the roller coaster, but the conflict is very much still alive. 

Now I'm wondering how to salvage the NYC trip, as D13 has stated that she will stay home alone.

I don't want to capitulate to this behavior.  Her specific objections are:

- don't want to spend 24/7 with me for 3 days
- don't want to share a room with me (we have a room with four twin beds)
- don't want to see a show with me (tickets already purchased)
- don't want to get covid

I would consider getting another room ($$$), but I'm reluctant to set a precedent. Dads travel with daughters and share space all the time - RVs, camping, boats, hotels, etc. I can't cancel the show (more $$$ into 4x tix for a broadway show).  She is generally anxious about covid, always has been - not much I can do about that other than provide assurance that we will all wear masks (still required in many places in NYC anyway).

At this point there are really two things on my mind:

The first is navigating through the next few days. I think more jiu-jitsu and perhaps a little capitulation with clearly defined boundaries might get us there.

The second is more like forest-through-the-trees long term strategy - How to best mitigate suspected alienation that appears to be in play. D13 makes a number of statements that sound exactly like some of XW's sound bytes. D13's counselor seems aware that this is happening.

I know I'm asking for a lot.  All input welcome.  TIA.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[kells76]

Hey, good to hear from you again -- I was wondering how you guys were doing.

We've been in similar situations before. It's really stressful.

My XW was originally supposed to have the kids for April vacation (this week). Some time ago, she asked me if I would take the kids for half of the week. She also cancelled their planned trip to the Caribbean.

I'm guessing this is documented (in emails or other)?

What have the kids said about how they feel about the trip being cancelled?

Do the kids know (i.e. did Mom tell them) that they are with you for half the week?

  We did take a trip together last summer - 2 nights in VT, and it went well - although D13 was anxious before that trip, too. 

At what point did D13 seem to "turn a corner" with that trip? In the car on the way there? Once there? midway through? Do you think she remembers having a decent time there &/or would say that her experience was "fine" / "okay" / "nice" / "fun" etc?

D13 stated she would not go to NYC tomorrow

OK, so the trip is tomorrow? Are you guys driving or flying (or other)? How many days is it supposed to be?

Do you have her counselor's contact info?

Her specific objections are:

- don't want to spend 24/7 with me for 3 days
- don't want to share a room with me (we have a room with four twin beds)
- don't want to see a show with me (tickets already purchased)
- don't want to get covid

Where are you guys staying there -- hotel? Air bnb? other setup?

And how long of a drive is it from your place to there?

...

Does she respond okay-ish to the concept of "well if the rules are X for you, then the rules are X for me too... the rules are the same for both of us" type logic?

I'm thinking you're on the right track here:

The first is navigating through the next few days. I think more jiu-jitsu and perhaps a little capitulation with clearly defined boundaries might get us there.

I wonder how she'd respond if you said something like "You know, D13, I've been thinking more about your thoughts about this trip, and I'd like to make some compromises with you... what you want matters, too, not just what I want. What both of us want matters together. Would it be fair for you if I got everything I wanted on this trip, and when you go, you didn't get a single thing?" (note: you're saying "when you go on the trip" not "if you go", and you're setting up a "well if the rules are this for you then the rules are this for me" equality)

If she says something like "NO, it wouldn't be fair, I never get what I want, you always get what you want, etc"

then you could say something like "you're right, it wouldn't be fair if one of us got all of what they wanted and the other of us got nothing of what we wanted. Right?"

So if she is "on board" with those rules, that's when you could consider pitching your "compromise".

First thing that came to mind was actually the Broadway show (depending on how safe you think she would be alone in a hotel/Air BnB for 3 hours, which is up to you)... "Honey, I remember you saying you didn't want to go to the show with me... well, I thought about what you said, because it's important, and I don't want to make you go to the show if you don't want to. So, once we're at the hotel, I promise you I will not make you go to the show. You can completely decide that one, it'll be up to you. If you want to, you can, but if you decide you don't want to, I'll respect that. What do you think?" (again... preframing it as "once we're there" because I'm assuming "not going on the trip" isn't something you're engaging with)

...

The other, more drastic way of dealing with it is one we've had to do before, but don't do it if you're not ready to follow through. Our 13 year old was pitching a fit over not wanting to go on a hike with us last year. She said she "wanted to rest". We even offered that she could sit in the car and not hike, but she doubled down by saying she wanted to stay home and not even go.

I "saw her bluff" and "raised it" by saying basically "OK, you know what, I thought about what you said, and as long as you work on some HW and a chore, I'll stay home with you and you can stay home from the hike, that's fine." Well, she didn't want THAT either, all of a sudden. But, staying at home alone for 4 hours as a new 13 year old with a smartphone was not an option (for us). Long story short we didn't give in, she climbed on the roof, eventually came down after we (sigh) threatened to return one of her birthday presents (not proud of this but it had to happen), she pouted but got in the truck. By the time we were at the trailhead she actually went on the hike. She loved it and said she was having a great time. I had to bite my tongue. She did eventually apologize to DH and I.

Anyway, all that to say -- sometimes you can "call the bluff" of "I'm just going to stay home" if you throw in a few of your own caveats. In your case, I'm thinking -- do your parents live anywhere close? Would they be willing to come over and stay with D13? That could be your Plan Z "ace up the sleeve" -- well, you've thought long and hard about it, and while you're sad that D13 doesn't want to have fun, you understand that she wants to just stay home at your house. So, as long as she works on some HW, Grandma will stay with her, and that's fine with you if she wants to stay home with Grandma and do HW, you'll make sure to get her a souvenir.

If it's not too far of a drive, maybe Grandma can bring her up "for the day". I would suspect that if that happened, she would want to stay and have fun. Again, this may not be a do-able option for you, so it's more brainstorming ways to (a) have some compromises, (b) have the trip still happen, and (c) NOT have "going back to Mom's" be an option.

A more moderate idea, between the first one and the last one, is -- would you be open to her inviting a friend along? I get that tickets are tricky, but if you combine that with "well, it's sad you'll be missing the show, but I understand you don't want to go, so you and Friend can stay in the hotel room". Logistics could be tricky but it's an idea, though maybe for trips down the road.

Last thought -- as she is 13 and the oldest kid, make sure to bring some pads/tampons on the trip. Sometimes girls that age "seem to" not want to do stuff they used to want to do, and period anxiety could be part of it.

...

I'm also assuming in all this that your xW will likely offer no support. I.e., there is probably no way that you could tell D13 "Mommy and I agree that you guys are going on the trip, so sure, you can call Mom and complain, but I know she and I are on the same page. I'm sorry it's hard; she and I agreed it's happening, so what can we do to make the trip better for you when we're there?" Yeah, I wish we could tell the kids statements like that, but we don't get any support from the kids' mom either.

...

This is the hardest stuff. Glad you reached out.

kells76

[EyesUp]

Thanks for the support, Kells.

Some answers:

Yes, everything is documented.  I've been slightly less vigilant since the D was completed, but years of habits are hard to break.  I've been attempting to transition to more of a concise journal vs. the documentation habits I developed with D in mind.  However I go out of my way to ensure that everything is in email.  Sidenote: xW refuses to use Our Family Wizard, although previously stipulated, and incorporated with our MSA.  Why?  "It's well known that it's a tool for husbands to monitor their wives."

The kids were very disappointed about the Caribbean trip cancellation, and D13 in particular has been very vocal.  "Everything good has been taken away from me."  She initially objected to the NY trip saying "that will probably be taken away too." That was some weeks ago.

In regard to the VT trip, D13 was apprehensive but turned a corner prior to departure - with the help of her counselor, who was also advising xW "you can't let D13 drive the bus, it sets a precedent for her behavior with both parents" etc.

So we're departing for NYC later this AM. Driving. It's about ~4 hours. Staying in a fun, modern hotel. One room, four beds for four of us. xW objects, says it is not appropriate for a father to share a room with a teenage daughter - however D13 and D11 counselors said it's fine, and I observe that lots of families stay in RVs, tents, boats, and also hotels...   it's not unusual or inappropriate, and not unlike what we did in VT last summer (one room carriage house).

D13 spoke with her counselor yesterday afternoon - her regular appointment, conveniently. I prep'd the counselor in advance, and she called me after the session. At one point in the session, D13 agreed that she was upset about the Caribbean trip and possibly taking it out on me.  She also indicated that she was considering how to sabotage the trip - fake positive covid test or broken arm (!), however the counselor was able to gently point out that this would not be honest or productive.  I fear this is a preview for a show that's already in production...

Your suggestions re: fairness and making a trade are well taken, I'll consider how to incorporate. As of last night, she was still entrenched - but slightly softening. This morning I played some things back to her along the lines of "I was listening last night and it sounds like you feel like you don't have any say, is that right?" - yes.  "so I'd like it if we can listen to each other and if you'll help make some of the plan for the trip, would that be better?" - I guess. And "if there's something you don't want to do, maybe you can sit that part out if that's what you prefer" - at which point I received a robust "no, I don't want to stay in a hotel alone, that's not safe..."

One sound byte from last night:  "you never cared about me, you were always gone" - something her mother has said many times, and which I had to disprove via significant documentation of participation at doctors' appointments, teacher conferences, school events, dance class, swim class, gymnastics class, bike rides, hikes, birthday parties (not just hers - but those of her friends too) etc etc.  I did/do travel a bit for work, but I was the opposite of the absent or uninvolved parent.

I realize I'm in an active shooter situation with xW... it's not enough to always be on the high road, always be present, always be positive with D13 - she is clearly going to the dark side. I'm not willing to passively allow xW to alienate, but also apprehensive of the consequences of being too proactive.  

We depart in a couple of hours, I'm on high alert for potential sabotage...

Thanks for reading.

[kells76]

Hey, hope you guys launched on the trip OK... feel free to check in here if you need some more support while you're in NYC. Fingers crossed that once you guys got there D13 was able to "flip the switch" and enjoy it.

(Side note, you may have noticed this already -- this board is more for when the child has BPD, versus you have a child with someone with BPD, so if you want, a moderator can move this thread to the "coparenting" board. Even though it's also called "conflicted" and you're past that, generally people there will be more in your boat. Anyway, just an FYI. But don't worry, we'll catch your posts wherever they are  )

[Sancho]

Hi Eyesup
I know it is early days yet but glad you are getting things sorted and into routine. Just a couple of comments from my point of view.

One is that some girls of this age ie 13 can feel a bit odd sleeping in the same room as their dad. I know it happens in lots of situations, but it is part of growing up I think. So I'm glad you thought of perhaps accommodating that one.

I recognise your dd's behaviour/words in remembering an occasion when I was taking dd for a holiday. the day came and she was shocking. I eventually realised she was hyper anxious. From what you say about your daughter's anxiety, it would not be unexpected for her to be super anxious with everything that is going on (and of course she will be hearing stuff from mum which won't help!)

I found that ignoring the behaviour/nasty words etc and focusing on the anxiety helped a lot.

My dd was heading into the unknown. When I named it ie 'Are you a bit worried about going to a new place?' she nodded and ran to hug me.

Sometimes a really detailed program can help ie a timetable about when and what is happening including times to relax etc.

I'm not sure if this is helpful. But I do think that, given your daughter's known anxiety, there will be more of this for quite some time till the routine helps her feel secure and settled.

[EyesUp]

Thanks, both.

We made it to NYC, D13 had a panic attack upon arrival at the hotel.  Literally, in the unloading zone - would not get out of the car.  Initially I was unsure if it was a genuine anxiety response or a dramatic attempt to sabotage.  However she recovered, we checked in, and eventually the rhetoric moved from "I don't want to be here" to "next time we come, can we... "

She was fine for most of the day on Friday, and appeared to have a great time at the Met, Central Park, Rockefeller Center...

Now Sat AM, she is in full revolt.  I'm certain it's because she's conflicted about today's plan to see a show.  She has stated that she wants to see the show with mom.  This was not clearly expressed until after I purchased tickets a couple of weeks ago.  Her initial response was positive.  Now there is a retroactive version of events - she and mom always planned to see the show, I'm taking that away from her, etc.  XW also communicated about this via email and expressed her dismay that I made this plan.  No such reservations were communicated in advance, and yes XW had sufficient information to communicate in advance.

This AM D13 has stated that she cannot wear a mask (required by the theater) because it causes irritation with her new ear piercing, and she just wants to go home.  In the most emphatic terms.

Of course tix are non-refundable. Of course I don't want to capitulate.  Of course I don't want the first trip to Broadway to be tainted with "dad forced me to do this thing..." for the rest of our lives.  At the moment, it feels like a lose-lose.  And then there is demonstrating my behavior to her younger sisters, as well.

BTW, I'm glad to move this elsewhere, but I initially posted here as I feel that the single most important thing is not just getting through the day or the weekend, but hopefully mitigating XW's influence in how D13 may develop or adopt PD behaviors.  She clearly shares mom's anxiety, and based on some extreme reactivity and other familiar behaviors, I fear that she'll further follow along.  I know I can't control BPD with XW, but I wonder if there are ways to mitigate with D13 when so many contributing ingredients are clearly in place.  

[kells76]

No worries about where you post. Wherever feels helpful & comfortable is fine. Sometimes the advice here skews a little "older" than on Family Law -- i.e. dealing with adult children & older teens here --  but it makes sense to check out coping and parenting strategies here too.

Hope you guys were able to figure out the show. I really get how hard those moments (days...) are. "Oh, you're swimming alone away out into the ocean in Mexico and not following my safety instructions because... you don't like the beach and it's not the kind of trip Mom thinks is "authentic" and Mom is right and Dad and I are wrong?" Yes we have been there.

The fact that you got her in the car and to the city and saying things like "next time I want to do..." is huge though. It's so important for kids to know that you are still the adult in charge and you follow through. Big stuff.

Hope you get some down time to decompress...

kells76

[EyesUp]

Thank you, Kells.

It's been an interesting few weeks. D13's behavior is hot and cold, but her hostility is escalating, overall.  I'm struggling to modulate between enforcing boundaries and letting her know when she's out of line, vs. not being provoked into endless conflict (and inadvertently reinforcing some idea that I "don't like her").

She tested positive for covid and uBPDexW readily sent her to me (over her protest), and she stayed with me for almost two weeks.  I gave her a lot of space, and at times she softened up quite a bit - but as the day approached to return to her mom's she went to war.  Hard to describe the extent of her complaints and accusations, but there was a lot of unprovoked shouting, stomping around, and seemingly natural resistance to any jiu-jitsu tactics I attempted to deploy.

No fun for her younger sisters.

In parallel, uBPDexW recently started part time work at a private school as a substitute teacher, where she earns a fraction of what she's made in the past.  Now she's decided that our middle daughter, D11, must attend the school.  Worth noting that D11 is performing at grade level with zero issues.  She has been diagnosed with ADHD, but it's well managed, and there are no concerns from her teachers or guidance counselor at this time.  The new private school is $30k+ per year, although there might be some discount for employees - unclear.  exW is fully aware that I am carrying a huge amount of debt as we recently completed the divorce with updated financials, and also filed taxes jointly for 2021 - she's well aware of the situation.  There is no viable way to pay for private school. If there was a concern, the rational thing to do would be to identify 3-4 schools that meet some criteria for D11, and then go from there.  Instead, exW is fast forwarding to bring D11 to visit the school (over my objection), without any financial diligence.

There is no primary parent, and our agreement states that any such decision must be made jointly, and that the costs must be shared 50/50.  This whole adventure is a fool's errand, and I recognize that the end game may be to paint me as the bad guy to D11 (and anyone else who will inevitably hear about how I objected to doing x, y, z for our kids).

Counselors recognize what's happening, and also caution that any direct confrontation with exW will likely result in exW defensively terminating the relationship with the counselor...

I hate being in this position - I know she cannot enroll D11 without my agreement, but in the meantime she is spinning up a needless conflict that puts our kids squarely in the middle.

None of this gives rise to a clear claim of abuse, it merely falls into the patterns of manipulation and alienation. Is there anything in the literature about how to defuse or mitigate this while it's unfolding?  Or must we always use countermeasures and other defensive tactics after the fact?

In regard to the trip to NYC:  We made it through.  D13 attempted to sabotage a couple of times, but also came around to say things like "next time we're here, I want to do a, b, c..." which felt like a triumph.   exW also attempted to sabotage by constantly texting the kids "I don't know why dad took you there, you're staying in the worst part of the city!" and "let me know if I need to come and get you" etc.

Presently planning another trip for summer vacation.  Onward!