Staying until I know for sure I'm done

[15years]

Just venting and wondering if someone has any good insight into my thought process, please point out if I'm being naive and so on.

I listened to a podcast about psychological violence and of course it was very familiar to me. The woman who had been subjected to this talked about how she re-entered the relationship five times. She had nearly finished a book about the relationship and still went in one last time. The last time she realized she wasn't even in love with him anymore.

Instead of leaving just because I think it's the right choice, is it a good strategy to wait until I know for sure that I will stick to my decision no matter what. I'm thinking this point in time will be in the next 12 months, hopefully already this fall.

At the same time I'm wondering if leaving and returning is part of a process that is needed to make a decision. I am also thinking about if I could somehow prepare a plan to leave in the middle of a fight, and somehow ride that wave of clarity and not return. What would I need to prepare for that to work. My main concern being the children. Mostly them being worried about what is happening. My second biggest concern is if she gets extremely fragile.

I'm really in the phase of not being in love anymore. I tried to break up nov-2021 but failed. My feelings for her now is that I want us to get along, I want her and the kids to get along, I would want to help her cope after a possible break-up, but not get drawn back in emotionally.

Thoughts?

[orders4946]

I am in the same boat 15 years.

If you truly believe that the way to 'make sure' is to stay until you are sure, then that is the right course of action for you.  I agree that waiting for a fight is helpful because the anger and frustration will act as driving forces to see you through what will inevitably be a challenging time and you will be less concerned with their reactions.

The danger however, is that you will forget what has brought you to the point in the first place.  Almost like being in the relationship will wash away those feelings.  I wonder if this is a trait of codependence and is a reason why we have managed to tolerate the relationship for so long.  It is the conclusion I am reaching myself.

[ForeverDad]

Do you have local support such as an experienced counselor who can walk you through this?

My feelings for her now is that I want us to get along, I want her and the kids to get along, I would want to help her cope after a possible break-up, but not get drawn back in emotionally.

Your children have already noticed the differences between dad and mom.  Some of your coping strategies in the past have been subtly invalidating.  One of your first posts was that your S5 would climb into bed on your side and you'd move him to between both parents because otherwise she'd get upset.

Whether you should try a few more times until you're really ready...

This has been said many times that I don't know if there is an original quote to cite, but I remember on Star Trek the  Enterprise's engineer Scotty finally exclaimed to those on the Bridge, speaking of the Klingons trying to lure the Enterprise away from Captain Kirk and the landing party on a second false distress signal, "Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me!"

How your young children may be impacted...

And for the children to see this discord all the time isn't good for them even if it's not directed at them.  Children learn by example.  If this dysfunctional example is their home life growing up, what life choices will they make seeking relationships when they're grown and gone?

Living in a calm and stable home, even if only for part of their lives, will give the children a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  Nearly 30 years ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.

The mega-dollar question is whether he will change for the better.  Stripping away all the smaller issues, what you choose to do with the marriage hinges on whether he will change.  Thus far he hasn't and that's not a good sign.  You've surely tried and tried yet it is so hard for a disordered person to get past the emotional baggage of the relationship to really listen and respond.  Would he see a counselor or therapist — a neutral professional with no emotional ties that may be able to help — and let go his Denial and Blaming, diligently apply the therapy in his life and thinking and do so over the long term?  Frankly, you've done what you can in the relationship, if he won't respond to therapy then you have to decide your future knowing he won't improve.

[Kayteelouwho]

Hello,

I did wait for the last fight, and then needed help to get out via police and other resources, I did also then go back as I that point couldn't disengage emotionally and my partner said they was going to try to get help and even with the skills on here and not J.A.D.E Things didn't change and my children was affected by what happened. But this time I slowly disengaged the rages was every 3 days down to once a week but did get worse for me for a while but that was my choice I know now I shouldn't have for my self and my children but that was just my own decision.

I think if your thinking of leaving then in some way maybe you think the realationship has ended? if you need to write a list of the reasons but do it where they can't find it and make an escape plan and tell family/friends if you need to.

Your local area should be able to help with this or on this site there is a section to help you plan. I think it was on the disengaging lesson board.

Try therapy/counselling to help you work through you decision as you will come to you own thought process and something that helps you feel calm where your most important thoughts are processed.

Sometimes staying or leaving or not can be down to our own fears of change and the loss of something we held onto.

I hope it goes well for you both on what ever you both decide.

Take care.

[Cat Familiar]

My personal feeling on those agonizing decisions of whether to stay or go is that when you’ve been repeatedly examining these thoughts, a part of you has already decided. It’s just that you haven’t got the logistics in place yet to imagine how you can make a smooth transition. And there is no such thing as a smooth transition, especially with a BPD spouse. Even in a *normal relationship* untangling a marriage involves many unforeseen and uncomfortable components.

After 15 years, you know who she is. The question is: how long do you want to live with her?

[15years]

Do you have local support such as an experienced counselor who can walk you through this?

I don't have any legal support, don't know if I need it before leaving, I trust my country's legal system more than I would trust it if I where an american, having read experiences from people on this website..

I have thought about maybe talking more directly about my desire to divorce with my therapeutic support. My biggest concerns are the emotional part of it all, at least at this stage. Maybe later when I have processed the emotional part of it more, I could possibly consult a lawyer.

Your children have already noticed the differences between dad and mom.  Some of your coping strategies in the past have been subtly invalidating.  One of your first posts was that your S5 would climb into bed on your side and you'd move him to between both parents because otherwise she'd get upset.

True, I have posted about that. My 5 yo knows very well that his mother has mood problems. I don't know how much I read into his feelings based on my own feelings, but he definitely has a lot of feelings about it, more than I would like him to have. But he stills climb into my side of the bed but I don't move him anymore, it hasn't been discussed either. But occasionally she complains something along the line that they think I'm the good guy but they don't know the full picture.

[15years]

I am in the same boat 15 years.

Thank you for commenting, it's nice on this site to communicate with this mix of experienced people and people who are in the middle of the chaos.

For me, my feelings keeps developing, if I would feel that I'm only going in a loop (ruminating?) about this decision, I would feel hopelessness and despair. I know that I'm much more ready to leave now than 6 months ago, so I wonder where I'll be 6 months forward. That gives me hope.

[15years]

I think if your thinking of leaving then in some way maybe you think the realationship has ended? if you need to write a list of the reasons but do it where they can't find it and make an escape plan and tell family/friends if you need to.

Thanks!
This is my plan now, to dive into my thoughts about divorce more for a period of time and see how my feelings develop from this.

[15years]

My personal feeling on those agonizing decisions of whether to stay or go is that when you’ve been repeatedly examining these thoughts, a part of you has already decided. It’s just that you haven’t got the logistics in place yet to imagine how you can make a smooth transition. And there is no such thing as a smooth transition, especially with a BPD spouse. Even in a *normal relationship* untangling a marriage involves many unforeseen and uncomfortable components.

After 15 years, you know who she is. The question is: how long do you want to live with her?

I think it could be a "two steps away from the relationship and one step back into it" kind of process. I have a hard time thinking about how we would get this to work anymore, I mean I'm put off by her presence.

I think I could live with her for a few months more, but I really feel that the clock is ticking. It would be the perfect timing to leave this fall.

[Notwendy]

I have thought about maybe talking more directly about my desire to divorce with my therapeutic support. My biggest concerns are the emotional part of it all, at least at this stage. Maybe later when I have processed the emotional part of it more, I could possibly consult a lawyer.

This sounds like a good idea. Whatever you decide, emotional support is helpful. It will also help you tune into your own feelings rather than the stress of the day to day relationship.

[ForeverDad]

I think I could live with her for a few months more, but I really feel that the clock is ticking. It would be the perfect timing to leave this fall.

Be forewarned that there is rarely if ever a perfect time to exit.  Maybe it will work as you plan, or maybe not.  Have alternate backup plans if the optimal one doesn't work.  One of the complications is that the closer you get to that day, the more likely she will sense enough of the changes in you that she will try to sabotage you in unexpected ways.

[15years]

What I already have to my advantage is that we own nothing together, except new but cheap furniture. We haven't got much of value that we share. We live in a medium to small sized city depending on who you ask, (population around 100 000) in a rented apartment so moving to a new rented apartment in the same city is not the biggest obstacle. I think she could stay in our current apartment. I want to be the one who moves, for many reasons.

One odd thing I have been thinking about is who will have what of the children's toys. Who decides where my kids will have their Lego for example?

FD,
How will she notice what I'm up to? She didn't notice when I took some stuff to work last time I planned to leave

[kells76]

One odd thing I have been thinking about is who will have what of the children's toys. Who decides where my kids will have their Lego for example?

If you decide to have a separate living arrangement, then that is a good question to be asking, as it shows you're thinking about what's important to the kids.

I would not necessarily try to "come to a fair agreement" about it with your W. I think I can almost guarantee that she would say "the kids toys stay at their house with me, because that's their home, and it's so selfish and self-centered of you to try to force them to leave their toys at your apartment". She will frame you as the selfish one, even though she is actually being the selfish one for not being able to gracefully let the toys be evenly split for the kids' wellbeing. So I wouldn't go there.

What you could do if you end up with two homes for the kids is model flexibility to them -- "sure buddy, of course you can take what you built here at Dad's and take it over to Mom's to show her, I see how proud of it you are". Show that you won't be the one who uses what's important to the kids to manipulate them or wind up their emotions. You won't be the guy who says "No way, these legos stay here and that's final, because this is where you live, not at Mom's".

I would let go of trying to "split up the toys" via collaboration with your W and instead focus on supporting the kids in bringing stuff back and forth, PLUS having fun going toy shopping with the kids and having some fresh stuff at your place. And then also being flexible if they want to bring the fresh stuff to Mom's. If the kids get old enough they may finally put together "why are all my toys at X house and not Y house, oh I guess it's time for me to bring some stuff over". Though it can take a while and they may need some reminders: "hey buddy, let's have you bring over that robot set today and we can work on it". At 14 & 16 DH's kids are doing OK at bringing stuff back and forth, but still don't balance out the clothes very well.

When it comes to "big ticket" items like blanket, favorite stuffed animal, etc, support the kids in having one of it (versus the "mom's house one" and the "dad's house one") and bringing it with them. They are young enough that they will probably need reminders plus you keeping track of it. This does get tricky if they or you or Mom forget it at one house and need it at the other house, but it's possible to sort it out. We live about 10 minutes away from the kids' mom and while there are negatives, it does make it easier to get stuff they forget. But ugh, it's way better to just not forget, so that you don't have to have multiple contacts that (especially when the kids are younger) make it harder for them to settle down.

All that to say -- that's good that as you work through what you want to do, you are considering it from your kids' perspective. If it comes to a situation with two houses, reassuring them that they will have everything they need at both houses -- underwear, pajamas, beds, food, toys, etc -- is the way to go.

[Notwendy]

One odd thing I have been thinking about is who will have what of the children's toys. Who decides where my kids will have their Lego for example?

It's good you are thinking about this, but it's also a lesser issue. As Kells said- they can have toys in both homes. You will likely be duplicating things like clothes and shoes, toiletries. This makes the changing back and forth easy- they don't have to pack a lot and also good to have their own things at both houses.

I'd be careful about the 2 steps out, 1 step in with duplicating the push pull dynamics. It also makes boundaries fuzzy. Not only is there not the exact right time, but it's not an all or none decision. It's more that when you look at both the pros and cons, one decision becomes clearer.

[Kayteelouwho]

agree she will sense your getting ready to leave it could be very subtle things you do, you tried to leave before so she already maybe looking for signs.

I don't think you need to be needing a lawyer straight away that is only when your ready for divorce. it's how long your staying to separating your wife and moving out.

Every separation is difficult and it hurtful to all and is definitely harder with bpd partners and can become and react in impulsive and hurtful ways. She may be treated to a degree and it won't be too bad of transition.

Are you concerned about the children's part in this?

Do you want to live there for a few more months?

 I don't think that's an odd thought to have about your children's belongings. Well it might be a joint decision with your wife or some times it's you will have some things at yours and some at hers and it will come back and fourth home both of your homes she may say they aren't allowed to just have some bits at yours that's new and there's and clothing and spares if you need them plus children age the toys change.  

It takes time to sort all of those just try to make plans for each and every situation, and things you would like to sort out. but with children's just love them support them and teach them that it is OK.

It can feel like all very big decisions and it can feel scary. I know when me and my partner with my children I would rethink alot of things over and that is OK, I'm sure you will make the right choices for you and your children.

[15years]

Kells, that sounds like a good way to look at it, if I get there this will be helpful.

Notwendy, I see what you mean about the push and pull. I don't know if it changes your view on it, but what I meant was that my thoughts and feelings are going two steps forward and one step back. My trust in being able to leave gets stronger every time and my conviction about continuing gets weaker.

I have a hard time picturing us together forever, when I'm realising how little she cares about how I view myself.

Kay, thank you for your encouragement!

[livednlearned]

Hi 15 years,

Leaving is tricky, both emotionally and legally. You're smart to be thinking ahead and putting yourself into different scenarios, figuring out how things might go. In a BPD relationship, it's almost essential to be a few steps ahead if you want to set your family up for a good outcome.

I admit I lied to my n/BPDx husband about my intention to leave because that was the best way to stay safe. Not only for me, but also for our son and even n/BPDx to an extent. He was not stable enough to hear information about an impending divorce. Lying to him was a natural byproduct of how unsafe the relationship had become and I'm sorry for those of us who have to do that in order to take even just minimal care of ourselves.

A year before I left I created a separate bank account and deposited what I could so I would have enough for a deposit on an apartment and a few months of rent. I photocopied all important documents, consulted with an attorney who gave me important information about what I should avoid. I rented a storage locker and put things in it that I would need, including stuff for our son. I got a credit card in my name only, bought a burner phone and PO box for any correspondence my attorney might send. I saw a therapist who helped me work through the fear, obligation and guilt.

Seeking out a lawyer now is a way to see a safe path forward, where to step and not step. For example, my L said if I left with (then) S8, to make sure I called ex that night to let him know S8 was safe and make sure they could talk on the phone. This removed any allegations of abduction.

My attorney also told me to document what I did for a year, what ex did, including behaviors that negatively impacted our son (e.g. drinking to excess, blacking out). She also encouraged me to get our son into therapy under the auspice of behaviors ex didn't like, which included S8's excessively restrictive and picky eating.

You can talk to an attorney for a 30 minute consultation that is sometimes free, or may cost a hundred dollars or so that you can then apply to a retainer if you decide to go with them. Ideally, you interview a handful. Tell them what your goals are for custody and ask them to outline a strategy for how they will help you reach your goals. Explain that your ex may make false allegations, could be a danger to herself and the kids (if that is your experience, including engaging in parental alienation), and will likely be high conflict and prone to stonewalling.

As for where the kids' belongings go, that is apparently one of the things kids care about more. Often, we tell the kids mom and dad still love you, etc. But what kids really want to hear is whether they will have two toothbrushes, will they have to take a new bus to school, what will the schedule be. My son wanted to know if he would have to take his underwear to school in his backpack because he saw a friend whose parents were divorced get teased when he pulled out his lunch and his underwear fell out. Kids care about their immediate needs and concern appropriate to their ages. S2 may not know what's going on to the same extent but older kids will understand.

I told my son it was my job to keep him safe and I could not do that by staying married to his dad. He didn't have much of a bond with n/BPDx and immediately liked how much less stressful it was in our new apartment. I also told him there was a team of people helping me and his dad figure out how to adjust to our new relationship, and had created a relationship with the family specialist at his school who knew he might need to leave the classroom and hang out with her on days that were really hard.

The nice part about thinking ahead is that you have eliminated some of the stress from not knowing what to do.

My ex did not have tender cycles so I didn't struggle with that so much but I was susceptible to crushing guilt. It's helpful to look at past behaviors to see what your Achilles' heel might be and then put support in place that lends strength when you cross those milestones.

What happened last time when you left and returned?

[ForeverDad]

Separation and potential divorce can be very complicated when children are involved.  When dealing with BPD aspects, it is extremely complicated and daunting.  It's more than just the legal aspect, there are the emotions, triggers, and more when custody and parenting schedules are at stake.  That's why you can benefit from both (1) an experienced lawyer's advice and (2) a counselor's objective perspective, not to mention also (3) the "been there, done that" collective wisdom of what usually works - and what generally doesn't work - that peer support can contribute here.

LivednLearned benefited from legal advice well in advance of stepping away from a failing marriage.  She took advantage of inexpensive legal consultations - to help her avoid many of the common mistakes we Nice Guys and Nice Gals are prone to innocently make - and probably didn't have to officially hire a lawyer and pay a retainer until later.

Remember, legal consultations and the advice obtained are totally private and confidential, same as counseling sessions... you do not confess and reveal, not even during spouse's late night inquisitions to "we will fix this tonight or else".

[15years]

Livednlearned, FD

What you bring up gives me another perspective on consulting a lawyer. I think I will probably consider this. Another positive aspect about this is that the more I talk to other people and professionals, the braver I get.


Last night was terrible and s2 had not fallen asleep yet when she started yelling at me. I did my successful take a break for a glass of water trick which delayed the fight and I went to check in on s2 to show that I was thinking about him. But The yelling continued and ultimately it became physical. I locked myself in the bathroom and she tried once again to unlock the door with a screwdriver, but I didn't let her in. S2 came out of the kids bedroom and I was worried about him as I didn't see what was going on and wife was unhinged, so I unlocked the door. It triggered her even more that I tried to be caring towards him. She chased me back to the bathroom but she totally lost it and screamed a very high pitched scream, s2 was frightened and started crying. I stormed out from the bathroom and held my son which again triggered her and she came at me and started stabbing me with the handle of the screwdriver, while I was holding our son. I was very close to calling the cops but ultimately chose not to. She convinced me to let her hold s2 and I did to avoid further escalation. He protested and said "help" two times while reaching for me, she made it clear I can not have him. I tried to tell her that her being upset did make him upset. Of course that only seemed to escalate things so I let her put him to bed. She was trying to calm him down, and I think she succeeded, don't know if that matters at all in this case(?). I asked her if I could say good night to him and she said no. I was only scared that it eould escalate again and put him in the middle so I let it be. Later she was going on about the initial fight and I told her that I will go check on our son, she wasn't happy but she didn't chase me either so I was happy I did that. He seemed calm and I hugged him and said good night. After that I bet he fell asleep, our fight continued but that is not my concern. My concern now is if there is something I could do now when it's still fresh, to not make this a trauma for him. Or is the harm already done.

I did go to a shelter for victims of violence with s2 this morning for 15 minutes, to consult them on what to do. And to prove to myself that I can take action. I don't think it leads to anything but it could be an important step for me. When all this was going on last night I was sure that I would make someone call the social services today by telling them about the full extent of the violence. I didn't say anything specific at the shelter, I didnt dare to. But I have thought a lot about how I'm the only responsible grown up right now, and I have to stop protecting her and do the right thing. I think I'm getting there.

What would you suggest that I do in this situation?

[Kayteelouwho]

Hi 15 years,

I'm so sorry your going through this:

So I would get legal advice in the fact she's most probably going to be just as bad as last night.

I actually went to a DV services because of the violence and it was affecting my children and I did call the police and they have helped on making plans to get out and contact numbers when I needed help immediately and its the same for my cousin actually had to get her sectioned because she was unsafe to her self and it really did help. he stayed in the marriage and still going through it repeatedly your statement of locking the bathroom door I can totally relate to that I did it many occasions but last time grabbed my kids and we all was in the bathroom mine is 11 and 19 months. I was pretty beaten down at that point and needed the enteral support from our local resources to help me and felt strong enough to leave the situation it was done through alot of planning and coming out of a foggy mind I suppose. I contacted my sister and me and the kids stayed there for a while till I had alot in place.

Keep the strength you have, I Can say honestly the best thing I did was get out of that situation had a few bumps on that road but I do know getting the help and putting it in place kept me on a path there and seeing my children like that was that hardest thing I felt like I failed them and now our life is calm.

Has your wife always had serve rages or has only recently increased?

take care.

[15years]

Hi Kayteelouwho,

She has always been upset but not violent, the violence started last year due to a "betrayal trauma", I think it served as a catalyst for quickly introducing physical abuse to her repertoire and now she can't seem to stop. I'm quite sure the violence would have been introduced sooner or later with or without my help.

Good to hear that you're satisfied with your decision to leave.

For me, I've started to really grieve this relationship now, seeing her for what she is - a beautiful person who I can't make it work with.

[I Am Redeemed]

What did the DV shelter suggest? Did they give you guidance on making a plan to stay safe?

Do they offer counseling services there? I think you need some ongoing support for this situation.

It is scary to think that social services might be called. However, if physical violence is involved and the kids are witnessing it, being proactive in taking steps to protect them as well as yourself is necessary. That is what social services will want to see from you if they do get involved.

[Kayteelouwho]

I am redeemed had some good advice.

I did have DV officer who asked if they could contact child services I said yes

child services was notified for me and actually that was also beneficial as they wanted to help the situation and make sure the children was safe and also offer counselling to my 11 year old and help recover from the trauma and abuse they was subjected too, and they notified the school what was going on to help too for need of an immediate escape plan.

The police was called my partner also then couldn't see that behaviour was wrong in any shape or form. or see his own actions didn't need consequences for those actions.

At the moment you are the responsible adult and the only one.

Why did you second guess calling the police?

Is she not accountable for her actions same as if you or I to do that?

I would get more advice I know you was doing the best you could last night, but what if she actually got you or your child with the screwdriver?

I think it would help to get more information on DV and a plan.

Did you feel more confident speaking to them?



 

[ForeverDad]

Your experience last night was similar to the event when I called the police some 15 years ago, just before I registered here.  I was in my 16th year of marriage and had a 3 year old preschooler.  Mine started a bit scary, the police defaulted to asking me to "step away".  Son refused to leave my arms so I wasn't carted off.

What made a difference was I had recorded a part of the conflict, unknown to her.  She was clearly aggressive and screaming while I was passive.  Once I downloaded it from my device and police listened, my outcome improved.

Did you get anything recorded?  A real risk is that when the police or children's services called her, she could have denied any raging and claim you were the abusive one.  How would you defend against that?

In my case a preschooler was my only witness.  Without a voice recording I would have had no documentation...

[15years]

What did the DV shelter suggest? Did they give you guidance on making a plan to stay safe?

Do they offer counseling services there? I think you need some ongoing support for this situation.

It is scary to think that social services might be called. However, if physical violence is involved and the kids are witnessing it, being proactive in taking steps to protect them as well as yourself is necessary. That is what social services will want to see from you if they do get involved.

The thing is I'm hesitant to admitting to how far the violence have gone, in fear of the social services being called. Although it's not ideal, I wouldn't mind personally that much, I really think we need help, but I know it would trigger my wife's shame so much that I'm not sure where it would lead. The shelter I visited collaborates with a center for dealing with violence in families (sorry dont know what it's called in english). They offer support for families affected by violence. I have visited in secret a few times so when I visited the shelter today I told them they were allowed to tell my contact person there. She contacted me and we spoke a little about the possibility to involve the social services, she is obliged to do so if she finds it necessary. We scheduled a meeting for next Wednesday, so I now have an opportunity to come clean about the seriousness of the physical abuse. It feels like I'm at a position where I have to choose what direction to take.

[livednlearned]

It's pretty common for many of us to live in the shadows during these relationships because we know that too much sunlight will lead to what can be a shocking amount of change.

We often think we have things under control but in retrospect it was chaos.

It might be worth reaching out to an attorney at the same time you talk to the shelter so you feel informed about how things work where you live.

Most third-party professionals want assurances that you are putting the safety of the kids first, even if you are spinning 20 other plates and need some time to get organized and straighten out your head.

This:

"I am concerned about the trauma my kids are experiencing when my wife assaults me. If I try to comfort them, she becomes more violent. She attacked me with a screwdriver while I held my son. The safety of my kids is my primary concern."

is different than

"My wife assaults me and I feel afraid of her. She attacked me with a screwdriver after using it to break open the door."

You want to create allies who will advocate for you based on aligned priorities. These are people who may end up becoming third-party professionals who can advocate for you if it comes to that.

Your wife may experience shame as the sunlight comes her way from these steps. What she does with that shame is the question. She may try to bring down your character so her own doesn't look so bad.

That's where an attorney can be helpful, so that you know what is and isn't relevant in what is essentially about the safety and well-being of the kids.

And by saying people in the system care about the kids, I mean in both an emotional and legal sense. What happens to you is awful and you truly deserve better, 15years. Anyone hearing what you are dealing with would feel compassion for your pain and suffering.

My lawyer once said to me that telling a harrowing tale of abuse at the hands of our spouses can raise questions about our own judgment. If it was that bad, why not ask for help? They want to know that we understood it was bad and then took steps to help protect our kids.

[2020]

I am not sure what country you are in, but my past experience with Social Services (in Australia) has been horrific. This was 25 years ago, mind you.

Somebody (I never worked out who), for some reason (maybe we had too many black clothes on our washing line), decided to send the ‘ladies with degrees in basket weaving’ as my lawyer described them. I was building large scale props for dance parties at the time and had a huge amount of ‘reverse garbage’ post-consumer waste at the home. They called this filth.

They took my Son away; just took him from his school. It took me ten days to get him back, and a lot of trouble. The person I was building props for put me in touch with his lawyer. He told me if I phone them up and yell at them (which I did), they will put my Son into ‘care’ and he will be shipped up and down the state from one family to the next and we may never see him again. I learnt to play their game.

Yes, children need protecting, but these people are VERY dangerous. Many of them are abused themselves and are out for revenge. I am sorry to be so extreme, but my Son is 30 now and has been permanently scarred by these people. Just be very, very careful. They are snakes. They may not be your friends.

[Blueberry Cat]

Hello, when I was in your position I thought things were progressing fairly logically.
  Then I left when it became plainly obvious that’s a stay would’ve put me and my daughter in danger.
   Then my ex was 5115 for being a danger to herself and others, she then blamed this condition on me and accused me of abuse to her and the children and filed restraining order on me taking possession of the house and alienating me from the children and all of our friends.
  So you’re asking the question and my answer is be very careful you have no idea what’s gonna happen when you do leave it’s quite possible should become unhinged and the stories and allegations that she could make up for surprise you because sometimes everything become so distorted you go into it feels like a fairytale in a bad way.
  I would recommend hiring a lawyer immediately the best in town and getting the other two best in town either on a retainer or go and talk with them and take this situation very seriously so you don’t end up where I have been trying to fight my way out of.
  If you’re truly worried about your children I will talk to professionals. This is where I went wrong I thought I could cope with things and I thought things were logical but they just not if you’re working with someone who has borderline personality disorder that’s the borderline between psychosis and neurosis and once you leave the triggering of them will cause them to do unbelievable things if you’re I’m lucky like I was.
   I truly wish you the best please ask questions if you wish safeguard yourself because you might not know what you’re up against

[Cat Familiar]

I’m going to echo Blueberry Cat’s concerns. I thought I was going to be dealing with a rational person, though occasionally violent, in my divorce. He created scenarios that wouldn’t have occurred to me in my wildest imagination. Document, document, document everything you can think of—who bought what, what happened when, etc.

Advice from an attorney is a must. I don’t know how it works in your country, but in the US, if you consult with an attorney and don’t use their services, they are prevented from representing your spouse. So the idea of talking with the three best attorneys in your area seems like a wise strategy.

My ex found the most vicious pit bull of an attorney in town. It went from what I thought would be an equitable settlement to me having to fight and prove that I bought everything that I brought into the marriage, because my ex lied repeatedly…under oath.

[livednlearned]

Consulting with a lawyer helps you develop a plan. A plan gives you some structure to what probably feels like a lot of chaos and fear and uncertainty at the moment.

Ask how things work where you live. Know what your goals are (e.g. shared physical custody, sole legal custody,  50/50 visitation, therapy for s5, etc., if those are phrases that are used where you live). Then ask about strategies. I read in your past posts that you keep a journal. Ask the lawyer if your journals might be useful. Ask what will happen when you meet with DV services next week when they call child protective services so you know what to expect.

The fact she has been violent with you suggests she might allege the same of you in order to level the playing field. She may bring up her allegations that you have raped her. Ask an attorney how to handle those allegations, and whether there is anything you can do to shine light on her inconsistencies, since it sounds like she also demands sex.

Those two behaviors -- alleging rape while also demanding sex -- are two circles that are hard to square. And if there is light BDSM that you worry might come to the surface, ask a lawyer how to handle it. Most attorneys have heard it all. You may be told it's nothing to worry about, or advised to seek out counseling (to show you are open to self-reflection), or something else altogether that makes sense for how things work where you live.

It's true that child protective services can go either way. There are many horror stories here, and there are also stories where third-party professionals were essential. Same with attorneys. Same with judges. All you can do is plan and try to be a few steps ahead.

If you haven't read Splitting by Bill Eddy, that's required reading for many of us. He explains a bit how the family law system works (US-centric) when someone with a personality disorder enters it.

What are your thoughts about the care of your kids if/when you leave? It sounds like you may need a plan for that so you can continue to work.

It's ok to take time and absorb information and do nothing -- it's a lot to take in. Everyone has different emotional capacity and breaking points and sometimes the timing is not quite right. Some couples tolerate these relationships for decades while others not so much. Knowing how things work where you live will help you be prepared and I can't say enough about how much that helped in my own exit.

If you do stay, keep trying to use the communication skills as best you can. They will be good to have in life regardless of what happens in your marriage, and they will help in co-parenting and raising emotionally resilient kids, too.

 

[ThanksForPlaying]

A very similar situation happened to me about 8 weeks ago. She came home drunk, woke me up, started a fight with me - which woke the baby up. I picked up the baby and she went into a paranoid fear/rage of me leaving with the baby. I was not planning on leaving.

I was slowly walking in circles with the baby and she came up behind me and when I turned around, she punched me hard below the belt. I doubled over, still holding the baby.

It was the first time she'd hit me like that. She had vaguely threatened me with a knife before - maybe with a screwdriver (like you) now that I think about it. I could see this behavior was escalating.

In this moment (just 8 weeks ago) I thought how will I know if it's gone too far? Am I injured now? Not really. But I could have dropped the baby. He was 4 months old. What age is too old for him to see her punching me? 1 year? 2 years? 5 years? Also, how much physical violence is too much? A small punch? A screwdriver? A knife?

I took my chances and called the police. Just like your situation, she demanded to hold the baby and wouldn't let me have him back. I waited an agonizingly long time for the police to show up - over an hour. She was asleep on the couch when the police arrived. I was soo tempted at that point to tell them "it's all over now - nothing to see here". But I didn't. I told them she punched me. She was asleep on the couch, so they kind of rolled their eyes at me like "you're threatened by this woman who is asleep with a baby?" They woke her up and interviewed her. She tried to say I assaulted her. Luckily for me, they made the correct decision to take her to jail overnight.

I moved out the next day before she got out of jail. I left her a couch to sleep on and some basic supplies. Started custody proceedings. Every step of the way, I've been tempted to go back to the way things were, but so far I'm still moving forward and it's getting easier. There are some emotional steps backward as you mention, but I see what you mean by "two steps forward, one step back".

It's so difficult. Your story brought back vivid memories that I've been repressing from just a short time ago.

Good luck with whatever you decide - we support you.

[ForeverDad]

You never know precisely what may develop in the future.  What we can predict — unless she starts meaningful therapy and diligently applies it in her life — is that it will gradually get worse and then more worse.  Why?  Because that was your past pattern (and ours too).

Can I ask a question?  Didn't your relationship start relatively well but gradually worsened over the years?  That is precisely why I declared above that it *will* continue getting worse and worse if you continue the relationship.  Learning better communication skill will be helpful but the elephant in the room would still be there.

Sure, you can build stronger Boundaries (see the Boundary and other topics over on our Tools and Skills Workshop board)* but over time you'll notice that there are repeated attempts to sidestep or weaken them.

* People with BPD (pwBPD) resist boundaries so what we encourage is that you set boundaries for yourself.  A very simple example is "If you do or don't do ___ then *I* will do or not do ___."  See?  You're not telling them what to do, which they would fight, you're stating what you will do if your boundary is violated.  Make sense?

Think of two fighters in a boxing ring.  (Not that you want to fight, of course, but doesn't that result to some extent anyway?)  The fight continues for many rounds until someone gets knocked senseless or knocked out.  You getting back on the endless up-and-down roller coaster is comparable to that.  Right now the cars have returned to the platform... do you get back on?

A very similar situation happened to me about 8 weeks ago. She came home drunk, woke me up, started a fight with me - which woke the baby up. I picked up the baby and she went into a paranoid fear/rage of me leaving with the baby. I was not planning on leaving.

I was slowly walking in circles with the baby and she came up behind me and when I turned around, she punched me hard below the belt. I doubled over, still holding the baby.

It was the first time she'd hit me like that. She had vaguely threatened me with a knife before - maybe with a screwdriver (like you) now that I think about it. I could see this behavior was escalating.

In this moment (just 8 weeks ago) I thought how will I know if it's gone too far? Am I injured now? Not really. But I could have dropped the baby. He was 4 months old. What age is too old for him to see her punching me? 1 year? 2 years? 5 years? Also, how much physical violence is too much? A small punch? A screwdriver? A knife?

I took my chances and called the police. Just like your situation, she demanded to hold the baby and wouldn't let me have him back. I waited an agonizingly long time for the police to show up - over an hour. She was asleep on the couch when the police arrived. I was soo tempted at that point to tell them "it's all over now - nothing to see here". But I didn't. I told them she punched me. She was asleep on the couch, so they kind of rolled their eyes at me like "you're threatened by this woman who is asleep with a baby?" They woke her up and interviewed her. She tried to say I assaulted her. Luckily for me, they made the correct decision to take her to jail overnight.

I moved out the next day before she got out of jail. I left her a couch to sleep on and some basic supplies. Started custody proceedings. Every step of the way, I've been tempted to go back to the way things were, but so far I'm still moving forward and it's getting easier. There are some emotional steps backward as you mention, but I see what you mean by "two steps forward, one step back".

That was almost a carbon copy of my experience 16 years ago.  Spouse raging, preschooler crying, DV threats ("I will kill you!"), I called police, they came, she was angry but posed as the victim, I was asked to hand my son quietly sobbing in my arms over to his mother and "step away" (my divorce lawyer had been a policeman and said I would have been carted away if not also arrested) but my son shrieked and clung tighter to me.  Fortunately it was one of the times I had recorded and so in court she had to admit she had threatened my life.  Unfortunately the judge used local case law to declare her Not Guilty since she didn't have a weapon in her hands.  At least it was clear who was the aggressor and who was the victim.  That was the End of our marriage.

[15years]

I will read through this thread thoroughly later, thank you all for helping! Going back to this first reply, this is my problem:

The danger however, is that you will forget what has brought you to the point in the first place.

I forget.

In this most recent example the timeline was like this:
Thursday evening: The violent episode in which S2 was involved. The adrenaline was pumping, I wanted her to feel the consequences of her actions. I didn’t say or do anything hurtful, the most severe offense on my part was threatening to call 911.
Friday morning/day: Emotional hangover, confusion, visited the DV shelter just to prove to myself that I could take action although the adrenaline wasn’t involved.
Friday evening: Took our kids to a sleepover to my wife’s parents, it was planned in advance. My wife was mild and somewhat remorseful. She spoke about how she thinks that from now on we will be fine, “something fell in place”, to quote her literally.
Saturday: Her calm and mild mood continued, the whole day I was constantly debating with myself whether to involve social services or not. I had good arguments for and against and I thought a lot about to what extent I could justify to myself involving a third party and I felt that I could.
Sunday: On Sunday this began to change, as I couldn’t really remember the feeling I had on Thursday anymore. I really didn’t have a clue about what I would talk about with the DV services on Wednesday. The kids was at my parent’s house so we worked on home projects the whole weekend. I was very guarded as usual nowadays, but I was slowly beginning to open up and be myself to her again. She had been calm, social and loving towards me the whole weekend, very uncommon, although some small manipulations was constant, such as her telling me facts about my sexuality, that I’m like her and have been trying to be someone I’m not.
Monday morning: She woke me up a few minutes before my alarm, VERY angry all of a sudden. She wanted me to explain and tell her the truth about some of the early betrayals in our relationship. I tried to say what she wanted me to say, so I could just go to work and find myself again, but it’s impossible for me to know what she wants to hear, I never seem to remember the exact story she needs to soothe. She scratched me quite violently on the neck and my face, which left marks. She knew I had to take S5 to daycare so she kind of let it go a while after that and told me to text her during the day.

So now I’m back to feeling a bit like on Thursday, I just want to show her that I’m confident and start separation, and I don’t care much about how she will react to that. But I know I won't feel like that later if she’s friendly…


Hopefully writing this will sort it out a little for me.

[Kayteelouwho]

https://www.healthline.com/health/mental-health/trauma-bonding

Does this fit your feelings?

What would you say to a family member or friend if they was in your position?

Keep a journal at work when things are awful write it down so you don't forget.

The being kind after the fact is another cycle and also places a calm in you/but still anxiously waiting for the next time.

What would you think if Your wife didn't have a medical condition... would you think it is OK to feel like this?

There's a Book by a Pat craven that can help with emotional aspect and how to start seeing what your in with pros/cons.

You are doing great at trying to work it out but when we are in the situation we take the blame/ and don't really see it untill your out how on edge and nervous you may be.

Have you had any counselling?

Take care

[15years]

https://www.healthline.com/health/mental-health/trauma-bonding

Does this fit your feelings?

It does, it's not an aha-moment as I've already known this for some time, but it still feels nice to read. It's wierd, I know about the trauma bond, I can look at it from a semi-neutral perspective, but even so I still experience the trauma bond characteristics. Am hoping that this is part of the exit-trauma bond process.

What would you say to a family member or friend if they was in your position?

I'm so aware of abusive relationships now that I would probably just say that I'm open to listening without judgement. Have actually been thinking a lot about if I should contact a person I know is being isolated. I wouldn't urge him to flee, but to talk.

Keep a journal at work when things are awful write it down so you don't forget.

I am keeping a journal, have been for over a year, so I can check up on details, dates and stats easily. 92 days of physical violence the past 365 days so once every four days on average. 2022 is looking a bit better, 22 days of physical violence, once every sixth day on average. Also, talking to a professional and communicating here is great, I get to notice that I do have things to say even when the relationship is calm, compared to when I kept things to myself and thought that I had nothing to say when things were "great".

The being kind after the fact is another cycle and also places a calm in you/but still anxiously waiting for the next time.

What would you think if Your wife didn't have a medical condition... would you think it is OK to feel like this?

There's a Book by a Pat craven that can help with emotional aspect and how to start seeing what your in with pros/cons.

What book is it?

You are doing great at trying to work it out but when we are in the situation we take the blame/ and don't really see it untill your out how on edge and nervous you may be.

Have you had any counselling?

Take care

I have professional support.

[15years]

This:

"I am concerned about the trauma my kids are experiencing when my wife assaults me. If I try to comfort them, she becomes more violent. She attacked me with a screwdriver while I held my son. The safety of my kids is my primary concern."

is different than

"My wife assaults me and I feel afraid of her. She attacked me with a screwdriver after using it to break open the door."

You want to create allies who will advocate for you based on aligned priorities. These are people who may end up becoming third-party professionals who can advocate for you if it comes to that.
.
.
.
My lawyer once said to me that telling a harrowing tale of abuse at the hands of our spouses can raise questions about our own judgment. If it was that bad, why not ask for help? They want to know that we understood it was bad and then took steps to help protect our kids.

I'm really starting to see this, thanks! It's insane actually that I somehow care more about this grown up child that my wife is than about my own under school age kids.

I think I may have believed my wife's weird  "emotional responsibility" ideas and now that applies to our kids too, she is proud of how responsible they are. It might be a really bad thing...

[15years]

I’m going to echo Blueberry Cat’s concerns. I thought I was going to be dealing with a rational person, though occasionally violent, in my divorce. He created scenarios that wouldn’t have occurred to me in my wildest imagination. Document, document, document everything you can think of—who bought what, what happened when, etc.

Advice from an attorney is a must.

I will talk this over with my T. It's beginning to sink in that this could be a good idea.

[15years]

What are your thoughts about the care of your kids if/when you leave? It sounds like you may need a plan for that so you can continue to work.

It's ok to take time and absorb information and do nothing -- it's a lot to take in. Everyone has different emotional capacity and breaking points and sometimes the timing is not quite right. Some couples tolerate these relationships for decades while others not so much. Knowing how things work where you live will help you be prepared and I can't say enough about how much that helped in my own exit.

If you do stay, keep trying to use the communication skills as best you can. They will be good to have in life regardless of what happens in your marriage, and they will help in co-parenting and raising emotionally resilient kids, too.

I will talk about this with my T.

I'm really starting to think the best idea is to leave during a fight, or the next day after a fight is maybe best so I have some time to execute my plan. BUT that plan doesn't exist yet.

[15years]

In this moment (just 8 weeks ago) I thought how will I know if it's gone too far? Am I injured now? Not really. But I could have dropped the baby. He was 4 months old. What age is too old for him to see her punching me? 1 year? 2 years? 5 years? Also, how much physical violence is too much? A small punch? A screwdriver? A knife?

I'm thinking that if I make a plan to leave in a similar situation as you did, it will make the exit more smooth than if I'd a) leave spontaneously like you did, or b) plan an exit and execute it from whatever situation that is going on. The risk is that in that moment she will be calm and loving towards me, and me leaving would seem odd, and I would start to question myself... So I think planning a spontaneous exit might be worth considering. It's not like I would have to wait for months.

[15years]

You never know precisely what may develop in the future.  What we can predict — unless she starts meaningful therapy and diligently applies it in her life — is that it will gradually get worse and then more worse.  Why?  Because that was your past pattern (and ours too).

Can I ask a question?  Didn't your relationship start relatively well but gradually worsened over the years?  That is precisely why I declared above that it *will* continue getting worse and worse if you continue the relationship.  Learning better communication skill will be helpful but the elephant in the room would still be there.

I somehow thought that things were calming down a bit after the big crisis I somehow induced feb-2021. But now, looking at the stats in my journal, it really only was jan-feb this year that suggested that things were calming down. She has told me over and over again that we're doing better now. I think I may have believed her. And I have felt guilty for not being in love anymore.

Also I read at some american christian site last year that it takes two years for a wife to forgive her husband for betrayals such as watching porn (it seems that is one of the rare resources online that views watching porn as cheating), and that the husband has to do everything to regain trust in that time. And I feel that I haven't done everything. I think that twisted my thoughts a bit. I have been thinking that I have to endure two years and after that I can consider divorce.

Inducing that crisis has been good and bad, I think violence was coming soon because of her rape allegations that I couldn't validate well enough. So the good thing is that the road to violence was faster so I can exit faster too, because she was being abusive before the physical abuse too. The bad thing about it is that I really feel guilty for causing her distress, and I can't know for sure if this is just a phase.

[15years]

Did you get anything recorded? 

I have lots of voice recordings of her raging and beating me. Don't know if it's legal or not to use, and if it could work against me somehow, that I'm secretly recording her, invading her privacy sort of. I have told my T about it and she told me I could play the recordings for her if I want.

[orders4946]

Journaling is a great idea as the memories of how you feel fade.  This is probably a subconscious protection mechanism. I have found it helpful to refer back to them but it does feel strange when things are calmer.

BPD is cyclical involving ups and downs so I suppose it stands to reason that there are times when things are tolerable (why else would we find ourselves staying for such long periods), but the true test for staying in a relationship should be whether it is tolerable when things are at their worst. Maybe I’m too idealistic but the bad times feel worse and are harder to tolerate in a BPD relationship because of their frequency and severity compared to ‘normal’ relationships.

We are in the same boat as I also have young children. We have to make plans because of that. I’ve made plans to leave based on previous behaviour - it has improved significantly but there is still some evidence of it and I don’t trust her not to revert to that when she feels less vulnerable. It is going to be a hard thing to do as the topic won’t naturally come up like it would if things were at their worst.

On your wife’s physical abuse - I had the same before I shamefully completely lost my temper one night (after repeated switching of lights on to wake me up, name calling and pushing) and came very very close to physical retaliation. My wife was shocked and intimidated. I don’t support violence but it seems to have caused a change in her behaviour - like she took advantage previously of the thought that I wouldn’t fight back. Have you ever got to that stage?

[ForeverDad]

This is important:  Whatever you did wrong is not considered abuse (maybe of her feelings) but that is not illegal.  That is no excuse for her reacting abusively.  "The road to violence was faster" but the BPD pattern is that violence (and other poor behaviors) would have developed anyway.

What would you say to a family member or friend if they were in your position?

This question is intended for you, not just how you might listen to others.  It is to teach the difference between objectivity versus subjectivity.  You are the one in the midst of family strife and worse.  It's hard to identify what's happening and it is far too easy to get accustomed to it.  But if you're on the outside (looking in on the poor behaviors) but not subjected to them, it is easier to be objective about what is happening.

Actually, that's one of the benefits of counseling, the counselor is trained to be objective and help guide you to awareness of reality and enlighten you to what corrective action needs to be taken.  They can't do the work for you but you can be educated and guided.  (Just like here in peer support.)

I have lots of voice recordings of her raging and beating me. Don't know if it's legal or not to use, and if it could work against me somehow, that I'm secretly recording her, invading her privacy sort of.

Overall, recordings are legal and ethical if it is done to document that abuse is occurring.  Maybe a counselor or lawyer could advise you whether there are any downsides or whether any particular recording is problematic.

You don't have to say your only concern is for the children.  As LivednLearned wrote, phrase it as your primary concern.  You can state it is for the children and you, just put the emphasis on the children since the system cares more for the welfare of minors than for the welfare of adults.

One problem may be if you have years of recordings of abuse.  The question you'd have to answer is, why did you wait so long, especially with the exposure to the children?  It's okay to say it took you a while to recognize it for what it is, and thanks to your counselor for helping you gather the strength to end it.

Have you read about Stockholm Syndrome where hostages will over time side with and protect their abductors?  Ponder that... could that be why have you been so influenced and pressured to put your spouse above all else?

[Cat Familiar]

Having tried to protect my abusive ex for a number of years, I have to ask—has anything you’ve done over the time you’ve been together actually helped her to be a better person? It sounds like she’s getting worse.

Attacking you with a screwdriver while holding your child—so many things could have gone dreadfully wrong at that point and thankfully they didn’t…but what about the next time? And you know there will be a next time.

Many times how we are trying to *help* is actually not help at all but enabling and we are enabling them to be more and more abusive of us because we didn’t call out or put a stop to the lesser forms of abuse. Once someone abuses another, it becomes easier and easier to do that as a behavioral choice. And it is a choice she makes every time she assaults you.

Physical abuse every four or six days is NOT NORMAL in a relationship. This is like being in prison and I think many prison inmates do not experience the regular physical abuse that you’ve been experiencing. I’m saying this because you’ve lost perspective, having been victimized for so many years.

[livednlearned]

I'm thinking that if I make a plan to leave in a similar situation as you did, it will make the exit more smooth than if I'd a) leave spontaneously like you did, or b) plan an exit and execute it from whatever situation that is going on. The risk is that in that moment she will be calm and loving towards me, and me leaving would seem odd, and I would start to question myself... So I think planning a spontaneous exit might be worth considering. It's not like I would have to wait for months.

It's admirable that you recognize how your emotions work in response to her rage cycles, and that you know that adrenaline will help you exit.

Do you feel that you'll have the right kind of support system in place once you leave? Your emotions will likely be all over the place even after you exit. It might be a good idea to have someone take your phone and paraphrase messages for you.

It can be hard to give up the dream that things will get better, that these relationships can be somehow transformed.

[ForeverDad]

It can be hard to give up the dream that things will get better, that these relationships can be somehow transformed.

... or managed.  <-- That's been strategy thus far and here you are realizing it didn't really help much at all.

[15years]

I've been observing my own emotions a lot lately.

First, I'm not in love, calm periods don't make me like her more, at least not the first week, and longer periods than that is very rare.

Second, I'm grieving this relationship, I get more sad than angry as time goes by. I don't think I can rush this but I have never felt like this before. I think it stems from me being realistic and letting go of hope that things will get better (or that I can manage her), and also that I notice how little she notices and cares who I am.
The transformation of my feelings this last year has been:
Scared - angry - sad ---> acceptance

[15years]

Having tried to protect my abusive ex for a number of years, I have to ask—has anything you’ve done over the time you’ve been together actually helped her to be a better person? It sounds like she’s getting worse.

Attacking you with a screwdriver while holding your child—so many things could have gone dreadfully wrong at that point and thankfully they didn’t…but what about the next time? And you know there will be a next time.

Many times how we are trying to *help* is actually not help at all but enabling and we are enabling them to be more and more abusive of us because we didn’t call out or put a stop to the lesser forms of abuse. Once someone abuses another, it becomes easier and easier to do that as a behavioral choice. And it is a choice she makes every time she assaults you.

Physical abuse every four or six days is NOT NORMAL in a relationship. This is like being in prison and I think many prison inmates do not experience the regular physical abuse that you’ve been experiencing. I’m saying this because you’ve lost perspective, having been victimized for so many years.

You're so right. I really have to start thinking forward more and not just here and now. How do I stop following my emotions and instead use them to lead my logical choices...

[Kayteelouwho]

Trauma Bonding: Understanding and Overcoming the Traumatic Bond in a Narcissistic Relationship by Lauren Kozlowski

this book helps overcome with trauma Bonding.

then by pat craven  is Freedoms flowers the effects of domestic abuse on children and it is helpful in the perspective that at somepoint your children will go through  these thoughts feelings etc. and what a difference calmness can be.

Home Study Course for Men How Hard Can It Be?

by Pat Craven

On the site I PV you yesterday there is an online programme that might benefit you, For the shame and feeling guilty.

without your wife having years and years of treatment and sticking to it and you enabling her doing it she will only get worse as much as you feel guilty.

 I had a quick exit plan and a plan for after I kept everything I needed to in a folder all official documents of mine and my children's in case I needed and need to get out quickly as possible and had everything I needed and kept it somewhere away from home but I could collect it.

Catfamiliar I agree with it is not normal for a relationship with violence and it is her choice to behave that way.


Why should you for guilty for not loving someone?
 all realtionships can break down or people grow apart.

I'm not sure it takes to years to forgive if you are making a choice to forgive you forgive them or atleast I do.

You said you was expecting the violence so you know she would make that choice to behave that way. She may have blamed you for something but that doesn't mean you should be treated that way that is her own actions. She could even be blaming you for something has hasn't occurred either but you will feel guilty because she made you feel that way perhaps?

So do you think is if she stopped with the emotional abuse/ physical abuse if she did everything she could, would it take 2 years to trust?

I don't think that would happen unless she has alot of therapy herself.

My ex partner got his diagnosis and was put on cbt and medication but quit after 3 weeks because he didn't like the side effects then they was changed then he didnt like having no big highs he would rather had very up and down.

 I realised it was never going to be normal and at best tolerable but accepting that was alot harder to achieve with bpd it's not just a phase it is a life pattern for them and can get worse but can get better with the right treatment but will still not be ever a good normal. Then from that I had been blamed for the violence, then it was he had to much to drink for the last reasoning was because his diagnosis gave him an excuse to do it. There will be a reason and answers and apologies but it would of continued the same as it was his choice to do it.  

at the moment you put her feelings first then the children then yours.

what would it possibly look like if yours was first then the kids and then hers?

I enabled my partner it continued then when I rang the police and got out quickly then listened to his persuading argument that it was not that bad or just a accident  I tried again and he showed love and caring and even some understanding at that point but it took 7 days before the violence started again. I hurt his feelings because I wanted to go to sleep so I tried validation I'm sorry, I want to go to bed early tonight but I will stay up with you tomorrow. I went to bed he felt I betrayed him and woke me up at 1am with abuse. he chose to do that.

breaking the bond was the hardest to me  but it can be done.

[Kayteelouwho]

You're so right. I really have to start thinking forward more and not just here and now. How do I stop following my emotions and instead use them to lead my logical choices...

Is it your emotions your following or is it your Wife's?

if you sat with your therapist what would you tell them or what your thinking and feeling? what emotions are you feeling without concentrating on your wifes... ?

they can help you come to terms with is and help you come to terms with looking logically and work through it.

[15years]

at the moment you put her feelings first then the children then yours.

what would it possibly look like if yours was first then the kids and then hers?

Emotionally I care less and less about her feelings, I'm mostly afraid of the consequences. So I guess I prioritize her feelings to be able to keep things stable. As soon as she's calm I'm off to take care of myself and with the children I kind of multitask and take care of them and her or them and me.

For example, I arrived home quite early yesterday because she told me she wanted to talk about something. I sat there for 1-2 hours with S5 watching TV and S2 sleeping. I would have loved to sit down with him for a while, but I didn't.

How do I put my feelings first when most of my feelings revolve around her.

Good to hear your story, I'm glad you were able to break that bond. I think I'm getting there.

[I Am Redeemed]

You have done well to identify your feelings as scared-angry-sad-acceptance.
How do you stop following your feelings?
Channel the part of you that recognizes the injustice of how you (and your children) are being mistreated.
Make no mistake, when she physically abuses you in the presence of your children without regard for their physical or emotional safety, she is mistreating them.
If a stranger attacked you while holding your child, how would you feel? How would you react?
It may help for you to sit down with your T (or here on the boards, or both) and walk through the logistics of a plan to leave in the middle or directly after a huge blowup, and a plan to leave when things are calm. It may also help to strategize ways to keep yourself and the kids as safe as possible during an attack.
Did you take pictures of the scratches?
As Cat said, the level of violence you have experienced is intense. 22 days this year and the year is not half over. That is over three weeks of straight physical assault. Think about the average person. Does the average person suffer a physical attack once a day for three weeks straight?
What about last year? That's over 1/4 of the year. How many people suffer physical attacks 1/4 of the days out of the total year?
How do you overcome your emotions? Tell yourself you are justified in protecting yourself and your children, even if there is not a threat in the present moment. At this rate, there will be an attack again soon.

[ThanksForPlaying]

I touched on these two thoughts earlier in this thread.

1) What level of violence is too much?

Be specific when you think about this. Obviously it's somewhere between "screwdriver attack" and death, because you can't really draw a line after that. Once you've clarified what your violence boundary is - would you recommend this same boundary to your friends? Is this the boundary you would want your children to have later in life? You may find the boundary has already been crossed.

2) What age would you NOT want your child to see you being attacked as you are now? (verbally or physically)

If you had an adult child - say 30 years old - would they be ok seeing this kind of fighting? If it's ok now at 2/5 years, what age will you draw a line to stop this from happening in front of them?


I don't have the exact answers myself, and every situation is different. I'm just saying that when I wrote down these answers for myself, my original answers seemed absurd to me, and I realized I was already past my limits.

[15years]

Answers in red font:
You have done well to identify your feelings as scared-angry-sad-acceptance.
How do you stop following your feelings?

Channel the part of you that recognizes the injustice of how you (and your children) are being mistreated.
Make no mistake, when she physically abuses you in the presence of your children without regard for their physical or emotional safety, she is mistreating them.
True, my plan now is to push forward and plan the break up with my T and here, no matter how I feel. IF I change my mind, it will have to be based on more permanent feelings. Planning isn't the same as doing it, but it might change my perspective and make me less anxious.
If a stranger attacked you while holding your child, how would you feel? How would you react?
I get your point here, I have to stop excusing her just because I know her and care about her. There is no trust between us when she physically attacks me so I don't need to treat her any different than I would treat a stranger.
It may help for you to sit down with your T (or here on the boards, or both) and walk through the logistics of a plan to leave in the middle or directly after a huge blowup, and a plan to leave when things are calm. It may also help to strategize ways to keep yourself and the kids as safe as possible during an attack.
I think I'll start another thread here and discuss my plan
Did you take pictures of the scratches?
Not really, I took a picture now on my work phone, just in case. Will start to do that from now on IF I get more bruises and scratches.
As Cat said, the level of violence you have experienced is intense. 22 days this year and the year is not half over. That is over three weeks of straight physical assault. Think about the average person. Does the average person suffer a physical attack once a day for three weeks straight?
What about last year? That's over 1/4 of the year. How many people suffer physical attacks 1/4 of the days out of the total year?
True, it's quite extreme, and add to that days without physical violence that instead had some serious verbal and psychological abuse, and manipulation.
How do you overcome your emotions? Tell yourself you are justified in protecting yourself and your children, even if there is not a threat in the present moment. At this rate, there will be an attack again soon.
I think working at my break up plan could possibly make my emotions more stable. Knowledge is power and reduces anxiety. Uncertainty does the opposite.

[15years]

I touched on these two thoughts earlier in this thread.

1) What level of violence is too much?

Be specific when you think about this. Obviously it's somewhere between "screwdriver attack" and death, because you can't really draw a line after that. Once you've clarified what your violence boundary is - would you recommend this same boundary to your friends? Is this the boundary you would want your children to have later in life? You may find the boundary has already been crossed.

2) What age would you NOT want your child to see you being attacked as you are now? (verbally or physically)

If you had an adult child - say 30 years old - would they be ok seeing this kind of fighting? If it's ok now at 2/5 years, what age will you draw a line to stop this from happening in front of them?


I don't have the exact answers myself, and every situation is different. I'm just saying that when I wrote down these answers for myself, my original answers seemed absurd to me, and I realized I was already past my limits.

Thank you for this comment, it kind of sounds funny when written out like it is. Yes, obviously my line is somewhere between "screwdriver attack" and death. I will try this exercise, I think I'm currently crossing over to the realization that my limit has already been crossed.

2) What age would you NOT want your child to see you being attacked as you are now? (verbally or physically)
I'm quite sure that I wouldn't want it happening ever again with them being in the same home...

[ThanksForPlaying]

You're also allowed to update your boundaries as you learn and grow.

Don't get swayed by the BPD argument of "I've done worse to you before - you can't possibly be upset about THIS".

I've been threatened with a knife and done nothing. The second time (or maybe the third time) I finally reacted and left the house for a few days. PwBPD's only real reason for me to return was because "you didn't say anything about it last time - NOW you're gonna get mad?" I almost started to agree with her logic.

You're even allowed to set new, tighter boundaries if you want. Crazy idea, right? Just because you've accepted something in the past doesn't mean you have to wait for something worse to happen.

[FirstSteps]

This seems like an important point. I know I've had trouble justifying a "new" boundary that is different from the very vague ones I started setting months ago.  My wife complains that she doesn't know how "follow my rules" in these cases.  It is so hard for me not to JADE on this - as I've set very few new boundaries explicitly and mostly have tried to just work on myself.  I'm working hard on not letting it get to me.