Most likely separating

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

First - been gone a few months.  I've noticed plenty of potentially useful threads near the top of the page. I am going to try and read through some of them as they may be useful and/or I may be of use to someone else.

As to the subject - things have been rough ever since FIL passed away back in February.  W has been very depressed, mentioned hurting herself/suicide on numerous occasions.  Her T and her P as well as the Ketamine infusion center have all suggested she go in-patient.  I have told her that I think she needs a specific program more than once-per-week T, whether inpatient or an IOP.  So far, she will explore those steps, but won't take them.  It's been very difficult for me (and the kids) to navigate, and has completely worn me out. 

W's behavior towards me and the kids has gotten more irrational and more abusive.  For awhile I was trying to handle things gently given W's mental state.  The past two months or so I have gone back to strengthening my boundaries and taking care of myself.  Part of that is out of necessity - I see and feel the toll this is taking on my health (and the kids' health).  the eye opener for me was one day W randomly decided to slam the door to the room I was working in (for reasons unknown) and the sound made my tinnitus considerably worse for about two weeks.  That was bad, but W being frustrated and complaining at me for not being able to hear her afterwards was much worse.  Now I notice the kids slamming doors, cursing and generally having negative language towards each other as all being related.  I feel that if the situation does not change, my health will be permanently affected.

The things I am doing: taking an hour walk every night.  Not sticking around for abuse.  Telling myself over and over that I did nothing wrong.  Mentally accepting that what i am living with is domestic abuse/violence.  PTSD or BPD are not excuses for putting up with this.  An example would be last night at dinner.  As usual, W found something to complain about at dinner and simply wouldn't stop.  What she was complaining about was nothing I did wrong.  So, I got up and took my plate in the other room to eat in peace.  W later complained that I was "disruptive" for getting up.  I just need to keep my head clear and remind myself that if I choose to JADE or choose to not validate every feeling of hers, I am not doing anything wrong or hurtful.  Me JADEing or not validating did not create the problem.  Most of the population does not require that.  What I do or don't do doesn't really make a difference in the long run regarding the r/s, but what I can do is take care of myself and remove myself from hurtful situations.

One of Ws big issues is our house.  The house I purchased before we got together.  It is small - but bigger than an apartment.  A few things need work because I have zero time to take care of it anymore.  I'd rather have a bigger house, as would W.  But W irrationally sees the house as the source of most of her depression and wants to make a change immediately, and would rather leave me based upon those emotions rather than rationally make a better housing choice for the long term.  As it stands right now, our credit might be *barely* good enough to qualify for a mortgage.  The sale of our current house could net us $250k in equity that we would use for a down payment.  Problem is, the cheapest houses in our city right now are going for $500k, so we would still have to borrow $250k and wind up with a house payment that is greater than what we have now when our budget cannot afford more.  And the house we would move into would not be much better than what we have now.   W seems to want to impulsively cash out now, rent for awhile, and then buy again.  I have told her repeatedly that I am not going to sell the house unless I have a definitive plan on what we are doing next because I don't want to gamble on the only financial asset I have when I am in my late 40s with two kids to support and in the 2nd half of my career - and with a W who repeatedly throws the D word over my head.   

W told me this morning that she is planning to get her own apartment and get a job.  I'm not going to say yea or nay to that - she can make her own decision.  I am reminding myself that if that happens, it is not do to any failure on my part.  It seems W is trying to manipulate me by telling me it will take resources away from the kids.  Yes, it may take away some financial resources, but it will help establish other resources (such as an emotionally stable household for the kids).  That's worth much more than money.

Last year I was considering actually helping her move out by financially making her an offer and telling her to leave.  I now see flaws in that, and think it is better to just enforce my own boundaries, and have her decide what she wants to do and then she can *ask* me what she needs to make her plan happen.  Then we can negotiate, and if that fails we can get Ls involved.  I am okay not separating, but I feel if I keep enforcing boundaries of not being around for abuse this is what she will decide to do.  I am already sleeping in another room and at this point feel no loss if she decides to move out.  In fact, I have already started daydreaming about what my life would be like if she had her own place, and know I would be happy.

[maxsterling]

First - been gone a few months.  I've noticed plenty of potentially useful threads near the top of the page. I am going to try and read through some of them as they may be useful and/or I may be of use to someone else.

As to the subject - things have been rough ever since FIL passed away back in February.  W has been very depressed, mentioned hurting herself/suicide on numerous occasions.  Her T and her P as well as the Ketamine infusion center have all suggested she go in-patient.  I have told her that I think she needs a specific program more than once-per-week T, whether inpatient or an IOP.  So far, she will explore those steps, but won't take them.  It's been very difficult for me (and the kids) to navigate, and has completely worn me out. 

W's behavior towards me and the kids has gotten more irrational and more abusive.  For awhile I was trying to handle things gently given W's mental state.  The past two months or so I have gone back to strengthening my boundaries and taking care of myself.  Part of that is out of necessity - I see and feel the toll this is taking on my health (and the kids' health).  the eye opener for me was one day W randomly decided to slam the door to the room I was working in (for reasons unknown) and the sound made my tinnitus considerably worse for about two weeks.  That was bad, but W being frustrated and complaining at me for not being able to hear her afterwards was much worse.  Now I notice the kids slamming doors, cursing and generally having negative language towards each other as all being related.  I feel that if the situation does not change, my health will be permanently affected.

The things I am doing: taking an hour walk every night.  Not sticking around for abuse.  Telling myself over and over that I did nothing wrong.  Mentally accepting that what i am living with is domestic abuse/violence.  PTSD or BPD are not excuses for putting up with this.  An example would be last night at dinner.  As usual, W found something to complain about at dinner and simply wouldn't stop.  What she was complaining about was nothing I did wrong.  So, I got up and took my plate in the other room to eat in peace.  W later complained that I was "disruptive" for getting up.  I just need to keep my head clear and remind myself that if I choose to JADE or choose to not validate every feeling of hers, I am not doing anything wrong or hurtful.  Me JADEing or not validating did not create the problem.  Most of the population does not require that.  What I do or don't do doesn't really make a difference in the long run regarding the r/s, but what I can do is take care of myself and remove myself from hurtful situations.

One of Ws big issues is our house.  The house I purchased before we got together.  It is small - but bigger than an apartment.  A few things need work because I have zero time to take care of it anymore.  I'd rather have a bigger house, as would W.  But W irrationally sees the house as the source of most of her depression and wants to make a change immediately, and would rather leave me based upon those emotions rather than rationally make a better housing choice for the long term.  As it stands right now, our credit might be *barely* good enough to qualify for a mortgage.  The sale of our current house could net us $250k in equity that we would use for a down payment.  Problem is, the cheapest houses in our city right now are going for $500k, so we would still have to borrow $250k and wind up with a house payment that is greater than what we have now when our budget cannot afford more.  And the house we would move into would not be much better than what we have now.   W seems to want to impulsively cash out now, rent for awhile, and then buy again.  I have told her repeatedly that I am not going to sell the house unless I have a definitive plan on what we are doing next because I don't want to gamble on the only financial asset I have when I am in my late 40s with two kids to support and in the 2nd half of my career - and with a W who repeatedly throws the D word over my head.   

W told me this morning that she is planning to get her own apartment and get a job.  I'm not going to say yea or nay to that - she can make her own decision.  I am reminding myself that if that happens, it is not do to any failure on my part.  It seems W is trying to manipulate me by telling me it will take resources away from the kids.  Yes, it may take away some financial resources, but it will help establish other resources (such as an emotionally stable household for the kids).  That's worth much more than money.

Last year I was considering actually helping her move out by financially making her an offer and telling her to leave.  I now see flaws in that, and think it is better to just enforce my own boundaries, and have her decide what she wants to do and then she can *ask* me what she needs to make her plan happen.  Then we can negotiate, and if that fails we can get Ls involved.  I am okay not separating, but I feel if I keep enforcing boundaries of not being around for abuse this is what she will decide to do.  I am already sleeping in another room and at this point feel no loss if she decides to move out.  In fact, I have already started daydreaming about what my life would be like if she had her own place, and know I would be happy.

[Notwendy]

Max, based on my own experience ( and my BPD mother is similar in function to your wife) is that, whether or not you separate would be up to you, not your wife.

She can say whatever she wants, threaten, but my honest assessment of her from your posts is that she couldn't function if she was on her own and I doubt she would actually leave.

I heard so many threats from my mother that she was going to leave my dad. The reality is, although she's intelligent, when it comes to regular daily life tasks, she can barely function. Her survival superpower though, is getting people to do these things for her. In this sense, she's very high functioning.

It's not that she's incapable. Her emotional state makes things hard for her. She also has poor executive function. It's an emotional need more than a cognitive or physical one.

The idea that your wife could pay bills, keep an apartment clean, shop for food, prepare meals, do laundry all on her own seems unrealistic to me for someone who has needed Ketamine and has been recommended for inpatient treatment.

I think the path to separating- should you ever decide that- is to get her into some kind of inpatient treatment and have a realistic assessment. I don't know what resources are available for people who are mentally ill and need assistance to function. A social worker may be able to assist with that. It might be that she has an apartment and has home health or social work check on her, or something. If you were considering this, it would help to know what is out there to help her.

You don't seem to want to do this now. That's entirely up to you. However, if you did, it would most likely be due to your decision.

[maxsterling]

She can say whatever she wants, threaten, but my honest assessment of her from your posts is that she couldn't function if she was on her own and I doubt she would actually leave.

I heard so many threats from my mother that she was going to leave my dad. The reality is, although she's intelligent, when it comes to regular daily life tasks, she can barely function. Her survival superpower though, is getting people to do these things for her. In this sense, she's very high functioning.

It's not that she's incapable. Her emotional state makes things hard for her. She also has poor executive function. It's an emotional need more than a cognitive or physical one.

The idea that your wife could pay bills, keep an apartment clean, shop for food, prepare meals, do laundry all on her own seems unrealistic to me for someone who has needed Ketamine and has been recommended for inpatient treatment.

Agreed.  My bet is that that when she mulls over possibilities, she won't go anywhere, yet still blame me for being "stuck".  My goal is to quit helping her with everyday tasks that she should be capable of or going beyond what is "reasonable".  The truth is - I am exhausted and simply can't anymore.  When she brings up moving again, I will be up front with her again - that I am not going to take such a financial risk with someone who is not even committed to me.  Let her do with that what she wants.  As for what my W is capable of - who knows.  But from what I have learned of her life before she met me it was many years of barely being able to take care of herself. 

[Notwendy]

Yes this is a difficult situation. I don't know what social services are available for her. It would be interesting to find that out. What if she wasn't married to someone who supported her? What would happen?

Although he didn't discuss this, I believe this is one consideration why my father stayed married. It wasn't the only one. I know he loved her. I also suspect he was concerned about her ability to manage on her own. Once he had access to the internet, he probably learned about BPD, but at the beginning of his marriage, BPD was not a known condition.

What makes it so confusing is that she is not uniformly unable. She's very intelligent. In social situations, she's very high functioning. She reads a lot. It's her daily function and interpersonal relationships that is impacted. She has some narcissistic tendencies and also considers these tasks to be "beneath her" or maybe it's her way of avoiding them because she doesn't feel competent. She also seems to have a need to have people do things for her- such as to bring her a glass of water- that she can do herself- but it's not the item or task she wants- it's the doing for her- and she can be manipulative in getting people to meet that need. Yet often she speaks in a commanding tone to us "you will do this" "I insist you do this".

I don't know what would have been available to her without my father's support. I do believe she'd have been hospitalized for her mental health issues. However, since she's also legally competent, she has refused such interventions.

Dad's default, not having much information about BPD, was to enable her. It was the only solution he had at the time, but it also enabled her sense of entitlement and in a way, kept her from becoming more competent at tasks. I think it also diminished her self esteem- not feeling competent and so to protect her from shame, she continued to manipulate and command us to do things for her. To us, it appeared that Dad did a lot for her, yet, like your wife, she also complained about feeling stuck- which can be a result of being dependent. She also had financially unreasonable demands- like expensive vacations and Dad did what he could to meet them, but it impacted his finances too.

So yes, a good starting point could be to stop doing so much. I would suggest going slowly with this. One task at a time. There's a lot of emotional baggage and shame probably with her. If she doesn't think she can do something well, she may avoid it. Start with something she can do.

And reality- if you can not afford a larger home, say no.

[15years]

What most likely will happen if you divorce is she'll find a new romantic partner sooner or later. Right? I don't suppose a pwBPD would find social services taking care of them to be a worthy development. I'm not very familiar with you case though, but I think that would be the common solution for a person who can't take care of themselves.

[Notwendy]

15 years, yes, you are correct. While my father rarely spoke about divorce, the topic came up so frequently from BPD mother's threats that we would ask him about it once we were old enough to begin to understand the idea. He showed restraint when we did, - he didn't involve us much- but occasionally we just wanted some kind of answer.

My earliest memory of the topic was about age 9 or 10. There were loud arguments, yelling. We'd run off and hide so we didn't see it.  I recall being scared when I first heard divorce mentioned. By the time we kids were teens though, we'd seen this so much, we would ask "why not just get divorced then". Of course we had no clue about the dynamics in such relationships.

Dad did say one time- "she's young and pretty- she will find someone else" and he was correct. She had a way about her that was very attractive and men noticed her. Dad wasn't a player, but he too was a solid and sociable man who also could have found someone else. But that's not the whole of it. I have read a lot about the dynamics between people in such relationships- what attracts people to each other, and what we are attracted to. I think the way to look at changing dysfunction in a relationship is to first look at our part in it, why we chose this particular person and vice versa, why two people stay together. We can't change someone else but how can we change our part in some of the dynamics that concern us?

I would not have blamed him if he did divorce. For some people, and many on this board, it's the right decision. Both staying or leaving are complicated and very individual.

But yes, my mother would have easily found someone else and that is what likely would have happened.

[maxsterling]

What most likely will happen if you divorce is she'll find a new romantic partner sooner or later. Right? I don't suppose a pwBPD would find social services taking care of them to be a worthy development. I'm not very familiar with you case though, but I think that would be the common solution for a person who can't take care of themselves.

I am learning that's what she did before me.  I don't think she went more than 6 months without having someone to caretake her in some way.  If it wasn't a romantic partner, she was in a hospital or in an intensive outpatient program or crashing with family.  Apparently, she knew this was dysfunctional, and at times would try to do things on her own, but apparently that would never last more than about 6 months.  She freely considers now that getting together with me was in part a way to have someone help her. 

And I am guessing that is the primary reason her r/s ended - either her partner did not want the caretaker role, or she found someone more suitable to that role. 

I also think that is the primary reason she hasn't left yet - I am a better alternative than her taking care of herself, finding someone else, or a hospital.  If she was to leave me for someone else at this point, it would likely be rekindling with an ex or possibly a r/s with a woman.  She has also talked about moving in with family - but I doubt that would happen.

[Notwendy]

I guess one question is- now that you know this, what will you do?

It's complicated. On one hand, you do feel a sense of obligation, you've committed to a relationship with a severely dysfunctional person who has difficulty being on their own, and you can't just leave her to fend for herself ( legally I imagine there'd be some kind of alimony arrangement )


On the other hand- this person has some survival skills- (finding people to take care of her) and also is abusive.

Either you choose to continue as things are and try to make the best of it. Or examine resources that might be supportive to her. It may take some financial obligation for a while.

The decision though, whatever it is, would have to be carried out by you. This thread is about her considering separation. But you know that won't likely actually happen.

[maxsterling]

Either you choose to continue as things are and try to make the best of it. Or examine resources that might be supportive to her. It may take some financial obligation for a while.

The decision though, whatever it is, would have to be carried out by you. This thread is about her considering separation. But you know that won't likely actually happen.

If I am ordered to pay some kind of spousal support, I am okay with that.  After all, I already support her financially.  The Ls I have spoken to said that is a likely situation given the fact that W has not worked in awhile.  The Ls said in a typical scenario, that would last no longer than a year at which point W would be expected to support herself financially. 

At this point, whatever she chooses to do, she chooses to do.  I am going to go about my business of doing what is best for me, what is best for my kids, and what is reasonable for my W.  She can decide what is best for her.