Should I share my knowledge with uBPDw parents?

[15years]

uBPDw just now had a blow up with her mom (and dad in a little more passive role). First one this year, it really was obvious to me how much I've learned since last time - to not take things personally, and to not JADE. And to not believe that they are at fault to the extent W says.

Should I give my parents in law a few lessons on how to deal with her emotions or should I let them escalate arguments by jadeing?

This was all done in front of our two boys, age 2 and 6.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Notwendy]

Something to consider:

Her parents have known her and have been dealing with this longer than you have.

The dynamics between parent and child are different than between romantic partners.

Her parents are likely dealing with their own emotional hurts and pain.

Consider Karpman triangle dynamics.  This incident was between your wife and her parents. If you jump in to "shed light" for them, they are placed in victim position (the parents who are victims of your wife's behaviors) you are stepping in as rescuer (good guy), and your wife then becomes the persecutor (the person with the problem).

Likewise, your marital issues are between you and your wife. Aligning with her parents brings them into this. This also becomes part of the Karpman triangle dynamcs.

Why would you do this? What do you get out of this? Well for one, validation. By aligning with them and pointing out your wife's issues- you gain validation. You look good to them.

This may appear to you as helping but it's actually stepping into the mud of the Karpman triangle. Your wife's parents are adults. They know their daughter. IMHO, best to stay out of their disputes with her.

I recall as a teen overhearing BPD mother argue with her father. IMHO, the people to help here are your kids. If she's arguing with her parents, best to take the boys away from hearing that.

[Notwendy]

I am not being critical of your intentions- basically you want to help. It's a warning that "helping" in this way could not actually be helpful in such situations. I learned this through doing this myself- talking to Dad about BPD mother after seeing the way she treated him. I realized it was naive of me to step in to "help" him. Surely he had experienced her behavior before I understood it. He was an intelligent man with as much access to the internet as I have.

I didn't know about Karpman triangles, but it fell right into these dynamics. The roles can switch around. I step in to "rescue" Dad from BPD mom. What's happens though is that the role you can step into can change. Ultimately this resulted in Dad stepping in to "rescue" BPD mom from me.

In general, grown adults are not full victims because they have choices. Of course, step in if someone is in imminent danger, but otherwise, stepping in can be stepping onto the triangle.

In the scenario you described, there are victims- the children. Children don't have a choice. They can't protect themselves. They are completely dependent on the adults in their lives to protect and care for them and the adults allowed them to hear this argument. The boundary should be " the kids will not witness/hear these arguments"

While you can't change someone else's behavior, what ways can you protect the children from hearing/seeing this? Taking them to another room, give them tablet with headphones and they can watch a cartoon-put them in the car and go for a drive.

The other unfortunate possible outcome of stepping on to the triangle is that your wife could get angry at her parents and you may feel obligated to rescue her against them. Please do not do this. If you could read the number of heartbroken grandparents on these threads, you would not consider it. If your wife's behavior is causing issues, please don't align with alienating grandparents from grandchildren over this.

These dynamics have the potential to break up families and some of the posters here have experienced this. Parents, who have poured their hearts and souls into their children are the unfortunate collateral damage of dysfunctional dynamics in romantic relationships, and the relationships between adult children and their parents can be impacted as well. Remaining a stable, neutral, connection could help.

[15years]

So there's really no way to point them in the right direction without stepping into the triangle?

Just a quick comment like; "you don't need to take things personally, but don't argue with her, and don't try to explain why her behavior is wrong."

Or could I just tell them to not argue in front of the children?

[15years]

Why would you do this? What do you get out of this? Well for one, validation. By aligning with them and pointing out your wife's issues- you gain validation. You look good to them.

There's some truth to this I'm afraid. A weird position to take when I'm supposed to be in a marriage with her.

However, are we all gonna have to pretend like we don't know the same thing?  Does validation from the few people that know her need to be a bad thing?

[Notwendy]

There are two ways to approach this boundary- one is to tell them to not argue in front of the kids but also if they had any awareness - they would not do this in the first place. I need to emphasize that there are loving and stable parents on this board, who are in a great deal of emotional pain over a BPD child's behavior. These parents are not to blame.

In some families,  dysfunctional dynamics can be intergenerational. If your in laws don't know already to not argue in front of the kids, they likely won't learn know it. Your input could also backfire if they also have narcissistic tendencies and don't respond well to "helpful" suggestions. With my BPD mother's family, they'd project/turn it back on me. My BPD mother's behaviors are obvious, but when I spoke to some of her FOO about it, their reply was that I was the problem.

 While it makes sense to you to say something, saying something can backfire where there's disordered dynamics.

My task was- how do I maintain a connection between my own kids and my parents while also protecting them from my BPD mother's behaviors? I have no control over what others do. For one- I found that BPD mother behaves better in front of people. So I did not leave her alone with my kids and when my kids were little I was mostly with them too. So your best boundary is for you to take action with the kids- be there with them, remove them from earshot if there's an argument.

I have found it's more effective to take action rather than try to talk about it.

[15years]

I have been very careful to not say anything private about my wife to my MIL, I do not trust her due to her unstable nature. I do trust my FIL and he always tries to de-escalate things. He often takes my wives side though because she is better at expressing her feelings than MIL. It's very easy to start believing my W after a while as she can be really well spoken when facing a more upset kind of personality like my MIL.

In the event yesterday, my MIL actually collected herself and said the right thing to validate my wife. Then she tried to explain why my wife was at fault which wasn't appreciated but the fight was over any way.


BUT, writing this I realize it's too risky to take anyone's side, I assume W is bpd and MIL has bpd traits too. MIL just isn't as manipulative and more based in reality.


Could I maybe communicate with my father in law and make up a plan on how to avoid exposing the kids to these kind of arguments? I really feel that him and I are the only responsible parents there when things get heated. And if I get a divorce, he will be the only calm one there when things get tense.

[Notwendy]

It's still triangulation. Who are the parties most responsible for the argument? Your wife and her mother. If you were to communicate the problem directly- you would talk to your wife. She's the other parent. But you probably know that won't go well. Think about it- if it won't go well between you and your wife- how do you think it would go well between your father in law and his wife?

They have been married a long time, and what you see between them is the tip of the iceberg. They likely are holding it together better in your presence and the presence of the kids. It's very likely the dynamics between them involve him as rescuer and enabler. Asking him to talk to her - she won't take it well- that will put him in persecutor position. Even if he seems to be the more reasonable one, if she's disordered, the dynamics between them probably are.

Your wife's parents can't control her either. Neither can you.
The parents on this board who are devastated by their adult children's BPD behaviors know that and they have tried all they know to do.

Boundaries aren't about controlling someone else's behavior. They are what you put in place to protect yourself and your children.

The dynamics between you and your wife are going to have more of an impact on them than the less frequent seeing an argument between your wife and her parents. In addition, what they see has more of an impact than just talking about it. It's not good for them to see these arguments with her parents, but from your other posts, they see this behavior at home between you and your wife. If you could keep them from seeing her argue with her parents, but they still see this at home, it will still have an impact on them.

You can try if you wish. My father was also the more reasonable one. I needed to protect my children from BPD mother's behaviors. I assumed he'd understand, and want them to be safe. The result was that it was all turned on me. Ultimately, he'd take rescuer role with my BPD mother. Your father in law may understand, or it he may pivot to rescuing his wife, and his daughter, against you.

15 Years- this is your task. To be able to protect your kids from what they see, you must first be able to protect yourself. Asking FIL to step in to protect them from his wife's behavior- I doubt this is in his ability. This is not to blame you. I know it's hard. What can you do, on your own, to keep your kids away from the arguments as much as possible?

[15years]

What if FIL asks me "how are you guys doing?". Can I tell him. "Not so good" without it being triangulation? I do want a "less is more" approach to this, I do not like to gossip about their daughter. But I would want them to know I'm struggling especially as she is telling them we're better than ever.

I agree with much of what you're saying, it's really food for thought. Also, my W and MIL generally get along nowadays and me trying to make it even better could in worst case make it worse.

Taking the kids to the side will be my solution if this happens again.

[Notwendy]

I don't think it's good to lie, but also how much you share depends I guess on how much you trust your FIL.

In my situation, anything I said to my father was shared with my mother. She read all his emails and listened into our phone calls. So naturally, if I said anything that might even hint she had a problem got back to her and it didn't go well.

Once I tried to explain this to her FOO, and when it got back to me that they thought I was the one who "had the problem" I was not able to trust them either.

I don't share any emotional issues with my BPD mother. She would blame me for them anyway.

So, my general rule now is if someone is connected to her, I don't share anything. Why share something if they aren't going to be supportive.

However, (and this came up in co-dependency work) - if they ask- and I lie, then I am also not being authentic. So I agree to not lie to your FIL if he asks, but how he reacts is hard to know. You don't know until you try. Also "not lying" still includes boundaries- you decide what you wish to disclose.

When it comes to BPD mother, I don't say anything to her that's emotional or personal. She's that disordered. There's no point. Recently though, some of her FOO have asked questions as they have seen her behavior. I tell them the truth no matter what they think about me. At times, they have said " we understand what you are talking about" but I still don't have that much trust in them.

You can try if you think your outcome is going to be different but for my mother and anyone connected with her, it's the Karpman triangle dynamics that play out.