Indecision and BPD, and effects on kids

[maxsterling]

Has anyone experienced extreme indecision from a pwBPD?

Background on this:  Twins started kindergarten this year.  We applied for schools back Jan-Feb, were accepted to 3.  W and I went back and forth on decisions.  Usually we would decide one way, then by the next day W was already leaning a different direction.  My feeling?  All 3 schools are good schools, and it probably makes little difference to the kids.  But because W would be the one doing dropoffs/pickups and most of the interaction with the schools, I let her take the lead in decision making. 

So summer came, and still no decision.  W decided to take a job at a very good school and take the kids there with her.   2 days before school started, she backed out and took them to a half day school near us.  Two days after school began, she was already complaining about the school, and that half days did not leave her enough time without the kids.  So, then she was looking to put them into a public school.  So she enrolled them at the school up the street and was all set to take them, told the kids, and then changed her mind the night before.  Next she tried another school up the street, told the kids they were going to switch, and changed her mind the night before.  Back at the half day school, she enquired about them going full day (for a cost), and they responded in a way that W felt was rude.  So she enrolled them in yet another public school, took them last Friday, and by the end of the day was already wanting them to go back to the half day school.   That night S5 told me before bed that he gets nervous going to new schools.  Obviously this is affecting them.  It is affecting me.  I'm at my emotional breaking point - as I feel for the kids and the schools that have had to deal with this indecision.

Now I remind W that we really cannot afford to move unless we have additional income.  And now she wants to switch schools again so that she can work.  I don't think W can separate things into logical steps - and sees it as all overwhelming and interconnected.  She claims she doesn't want to make a decision about school or working until we are moving - but I see it as an excuse.  I really think she does not want to work and she is just self-sabotaging.

I should mention that a main motivation for where they go to school has to do with the fact that both kids are having frequent potty accidents with regards to going #2.  We have been to doctors who say there is nothing physically wrong.  My gut is telling me this issue is stress related, and that the inconsistency and indecisiveness is playing a role here. 

Thoughts on this?


I should point out that

[maxsterling]

Oh a humorous note (I could use some humor), perhaps I should have told W that I dated two women that previously worked at the half-day school the kids are at now (she currently knows about only one), and that another woman I went on a few dates with is another parent.  If W knew that, I am sure she would want to pull the kids out immediately!

[Notwendy]

Each of these issues is a "tree" but the whole thing is a forest of them. By now, Max, you surely know that your wife is quite disordered, can't hold a job, and also can't get through the day without some sort of self medication. She's been resistant to a lot of therapy and even Ketamine trials.

The forest is called dysfunction and it impacts the trees- and a focus on dealing with each tree might come up with a way to manage that tree. But you are in the forest still and there are a lot of trees.

And it was Dr. Phil who told a family on his show where there was a disordered family member. " you are all lost in the forest and looking at a disordered person to lead you out"

Max you have to trust your knowledge in your situation. You decide where the kids go and you take them. ( my Dad took me to school until I could ride the bus. BPD mother didn't. )

Yes being changed from school to school in just a few weeks ( how many schools?) is upsetting for kids and yes, potty accidents can have an emotional cause. Read about encopresis. There is no physical problem. The kids retain it and then have accidents as it leaks out around it.

Potty accidents, nervous tics, behavioral issues, poor attention in school, anxiety---- all can be from emotional stress at home.

[GaGrl]

I'm so sorry...those children certainly are feeling the stress.

Our granddaughter had problems with encopresis. Her parents had divorced, her mother had begun a new relationship, and there was frequent disagreements and power struggles between her mother and her uBPD/NPD grandmother. When a child feels his/her world is out of control, bowel movements often are the only thing the child has any control over. It took several years to work past her problems -- ages 4-6.

It appears you are going to have to make some"emotional leader of the family" decisions, for the well-being of the children.

Yes, it sounds as if your wife is hanging on to the unrealistic plan to move houses -- her indecisiveness may be passive-regressive, or it may be more blatant manipulation.

[ForeverDad]

I learned the hard way not to give choices to my ex, the risk was high she would mess it up.

One time at an exchange I mentioned an upcoming exchange, I think it was due to holiday exchanges being so close to weekend exchanges.  She was almost on the verge of telling me to just keep him the next time around.  Silly me, I saw her dithering around and I offered two options, both more fair to her than what she was pondering.  Well, she got huffy and said "I'll just keep him!"  Eventually it got resolved but I learned a lesson then.  Offering options made so much sense but made things worse, triggering her.  Or maybe she just had to trash any suggestions I made, common sense being overshadowed by her emotional baggage...

So I agree with Notwendy, take charge of choosing a school.  She complains she can't find work with short school hours?  Then you pick one that keeps the kids for longer sessions (maybe up to 6 hours max?) then she will not have any excuse not to find part time work somewhere.  Or she will choose to expand her "my time".

It appears you are going to have to make some "emotional leader of the family" decisions, for the well-being of the children.

Yes, it sounds as if your wife is hanging on to the unrealistic plan to move houses -- her indecisiveness may be passive-regressive, or it may be more blatant manipulation.

You are like us and our normal inclinations.  We not only want to be fair but also want to share.  You have to let go the idea of "fairness".  Instead, do what the kids need.

GaGrl is right, moving is not the solution.  Moving will not fix anything.  In time your spouse would insist on moving yet again for some perceived issue.

[maxsterling]

Thanks Wendy.  This has been a difficult one for me, because I feel like I am being forced to take roles and act in ways that I would normally feel are controlling.  There are plenty of decisions that couples normally make together assuming no disorder.  But with this, I feel like I am to the point I need to "put my foot down" and say "the kids are going here" and let the fireworks begin.  I don't want to be like that. But Ws back and forth is hurting the kids.  I know it is.  S5 is developing a few behavior problems, some very concerning.  W wants to think it is something like autism, anxiety disorders, other special needs issues, but I wonder how much of it stems from having an unstable, unpredictable, disordered parent.  My guess is that is most of it, because he doesn't have nearly the same issues with the sitter or at school.

[maxsterling]

It appears you are going to have to make some"emotional leader of the family" decisions, for the well-being of the children.

I agree.  And I need to be strong.  And if it means having weird work hours myself, I need to talk to my employer honestly.  Logic says that the kids need to stay at the full-day public school they have gone to for two days.  Switching to another public school is stress they don't need.  This is already causing them stress.  Having the kids go half day is fine for them, but W's near daily nervous breakdown about not having enough time for herself is not something i can deal with, even if she tells me again that she can handle it. 

Telling the half-day school that the kids will no longer be going there feels heartbreaking for me.  The kids like the school, the teachers like the kids.  It is a good school.  And I knew this would happen.  I felt bad when W decided to not take the job and we switched schools.  The kids already had met their teacher, had seen their classroom, had been told that mom was going to be working at the school they were at...This feels even worse.

[Notwendy]

There are some benefits to the longer day public school. One is financial and you have mentioned financial stressors. You don't pay additional tuition for public school. Another is more time away from their BPD mother which helps them and her. My BPD mother could not handle us kids for very long. If we were at school, she didn't have to be around us as much.

And for us, school was an emotionally safe place.

The only concern is that a full day is a lot for a 5 year old, but so is being around BPD mother. I think school's the winner here as it's a consistent adult, a predictable routine, consistent expectations, they get meals, and friends to play with.

When my kids started kindergarten, some other parents were in tears about their "baby" being away all day. They had their kids in half day kindergarten. Your wife may feel some peer pressure to act the same "I want my baby with me" but it's not about soothing her. It's what is best for the kids.

I know it's harder and not fair for you to be both parents, but you may be the only consistent parent your kids have. It's inevitable that having a disordered mother emotionally impacts kids emotionally in some way. How much it does depends on their own emotional make up and resilience but having a consistent and loving adult in their lives also helps mitigate the effects. That person is you, as well as teachers and other adults care about them.

[Cat Familiar]

My two cents:
After growing up with a disordered mother and spending a huge amount of time alone with her (no siblings), I’d advise you to do whatever you can to minimize the amount of time your children have to spend with your wife.

This sounds harsh, but if you want your children to develop emotionally healthy habits, they need good role models, and your wife ain’t it.

Children mimic the adults they spend time with. It took me tens of thousands of dollars in therapy as an adult to overcome some of the dreadful emotional habits I picked up from being around my mother, and I’m still not free of some of them.

Do your kids a favor and let them model emotionally healthy people instead of their dysfunctional mother.

[maxsterling]

Update -

W had a long conversation with kids' T yesterday afternoon (yes, kids already have a T - partly for the reason CatFamiliar mentioned).  T usually does not give direct advice, but it sounds like she attempted to be a bit more persuasive than usual.  Basically T said this (relayed through W):

1)  If kids were doing well at half day school we should put them back there and leave them there for the year. 
2)  We should prioritize getting OT for the kids for potty issues.
3)  If W needs more time away from kids, have me adjust my work schedule a few days per week to come home earlier, or have a sitter come over 1-2 days per week.
4)  W needs to spend the time taking care of herself, physical and mental health.  T basically said that it doesn't sound like W is not stable enough to take and keep a job, and that the kids need stability and consistency.
5) The kids' issues have nothing to do with living in a small house, and that moving would be stressful and disruptive to them, and they need stability and consistency and we should scrap the idea of trying to move for the time being.
6) S5's behavior issues are him acting out what he observes, and at 5 years old doesn't understand what he is doing/saying. 

Interestingly, after W told me what the kids' T said, my digestive issues and chest pains immediately went away for a few hours. 

[ForeverDad]

It would be wise to get the comments directly from the kids' T.  You don't know whether your spouse relayed the recommendations fully or accurately.

"put them back there"?  How long have the kids been in the half-day kindergarten?  That ought to be a consideration too.  There's a difference between a week or so versus a month or more.

[Notwendy]

I was going to say the same thing as Forever Dad. I would want to hear the recommendations from the T directly.

Your wife might be hearing what the T said through her own emotional filter. "I feel this so she said it".

We kids often cross check what BPD mother tells us if it's information we feel we need to know accurately.

[maxsterling]

I meet with the T next week.  The kids were at the half day kindergarten a the charter school for 3 weeks.  They were at the full day kindergarten at the public school for 2 days. 

What the T told W is consistent with things she has said previously, so I am not too concerned about W relaying me inaccurate info here. 

[livednlearned]

S5 is developing a few behavior problems, some very concerning.  W wants to think it is something like autism, anxiety disorders, other special needs issues, but I wonder how much of it stems from having an unstable, unpredictable, disordered parent.  

It can also be both.

My son's issues were both. Like you, I felt the issues were likely related to having a disordered parent. When our home life was stressful, it was off the charts. I think it obscured for me what in retrospect were S21's autism level 1 traits. They were certainly exacerbated by our home life, but that didn't exclude core issues that were genetic.

The connection between autism and BPD I find fascinating. I am speculating that n/BPDx, my son's father, was also on the spectrum. Partly because of how hereditary ASD is, and also because it would explain pieces of n/BPDx's behaviors that couldn't be explained by BPD alone.

I see a similar combination of these traits in my adult stepdaughter.

My son's ASD seems simple in comparison to the ASD level 1/BPD combination.

[Notwendy]

I am surprised your wife relayed the statement about not moving and that the size of the house has nothing to do with the kids' issues. I think the T is right. It's just not what your wife has been asking for and it's good the T refuted her wishes about that. It would only cause you more financial stress and it won't be the resolution of the issues because the house isn't the cause of them.

And also this: W needs to spend the time taking care of herself, physical and mental health.  T basically said that it doesn't sound like W is not stable enough to take and keep a job, and that the kids need stability and consistency.

There's a lot to unpack in this. I think the T is right (from my own experience with BPD mother)

I don't believe your wife is stable enough to manage a job. It's got nothing to do with intelligence. She's surely smart enough. My mother is intelligent too. But a job requires skills like executive function and emotional regulation and your wife doesn't have these skills. She also requires being heavily medicated to get through the day. If just getting through the day meeting her regular needs is a challenge, a job would be far too stressful for her.

Just as you wish you could interact with your wife in normal sharing situations, I think it's time to consider her level of impairment realistically. If it's a challenge for her just taking care of herself, taking on the care of someone else may not be in her skill set. She may be able to manage the kids for a short while, maybe, maybe not. My mother can barely get through the day with just meeting her own needs. This isn't to be critical or blame her. It's the extent of her mental illness. It does no good to resent her for this or expect her to do more, because, it is what it is.

This doesn't mean you have to enable or fix everything. Everyone can do something. Find what she can do and build from there. But for now, a job for her is probably not a realistic expectation.

[maxsterling]

I don't believe your wife is stable enough to manage a job. It's got nothing to do with intelligence. She's surely smart enough. My mother is intelligent too. But a job requires skills like executive function and emotional regulation and your wife doesn't have these skills. She also requires being heavily medicated to get through the day. If just getting through the day meeting her regular needs is a challenge, a job would be far too stressful for her.

She makes excuses as to why she turned down the job.  I know they are excuses for herself.  Her excuses - "It was too far", "it would have been hard on the kids and you", "It was not what the kids need".  The reality is she started talking about backing out the night after her first training day.  The reality of working and dealing with people set in.  How do I know?  Well her complaints that night were worries about what the parents would be like, what the demographics of the school would be like, whether her co-workers were conservative or liberal, etc.  Then complains about how this is a bad state for teachers to work in, about how she never wanted to be a teacher here, how teachers are overworked...It wasn't until after she stepped back that she talked about the commute being too long for the kids, about how the kids could not handle a full day of school, etc.

The reality is she knows she can't hold down a job.  In her whole life, I am not sure she has ever held a job longer than two years.  And like your mom, she can get through the days medicated.  She worries about taking Benzos ever day - but the reality is she probably needs then just to function.  Cannabis is her other medication - and it is probably a safer choice.  It leaves her with less anxiety but has a downside of leaving her even less functional. 

We just hired another sitter to help out a few days a week.  I think this is W's observation that she can't deal with the kids alone for more than 2 hours at a time and that the kids probably should not be dealing with her alone for more than 2 hours.  I don't disagree.  I think being with a sitter is good for the kids.

[15years]

When we say that a r/s with a pwbpd is like riding a roller coaster, I always thought about the rages vs. calmer times, being painted white or black etc. I now realize it's not about the r/s, it's about the disorder. Because this job story max is telling us is also a roller coaster ride. You can simply assume that any change or new significant idea will be followed by disordered emotional responses.

So, step out of the roller coaster and it wont stop moving without us in it

[Notwendy]

She makes excuses as to why she turned down the job.  

The reality is she knows she can't hold down a job.  In her whole life, I am not sure she has ever held a job longer than two years.  And like your mom, she can get through the days medicated.  She worries about taking Benzos ever day - but the reality is she probably needs then just to function.  Cannabis is her other medication - and it is probably a safer choice.  It leaves her with less anxiety but has a downside of leaving her even less functional.  

We just hired another sitter to help out a few days a week.  I think this is W's observation that she can't deal with the kids alone for more than 2 hours at a time and that the kids probably should not be dealing with her alone for more than 2 hours.  I don't disagree.  I think being with a sitter is good for the kids.

I have heard so many "excuses" but I think they are a way of coping with the underlying shame they must feel. I think they don't want people to see their incapacities. Who would? Feeling competent is a source of self esteem for anybody. I think people accommodate for intellectual disabilities- I have heard of people with Down syndrome saying they want to have jobs and be self sufficient and so we find a place for them in the workforce where they can use their skills. With BPD though, they can have high intelligence but their emotional disability is what impairs them and the workplace isn't suited for that.

I think it's important that they are able to do something, even if it's very little, even if it's just making lunch for the kids. To save face, BPD mother refused to do things she couldn't do and made others do them for her but by doing them for her, she didn't learn to do them better. On the other hand, it's hard to know if she can manage much as she's usually overwhelmed with her emotional dysregulation. It's a bit of a chicken and egg thing. What can she can't do because of her BPD and what she can't do because we did it for her. It's hard to know.

But I 100% agree with getting help with childcare - as much as is needed. Kids will test any parent's patience and if BPD mother can not handle it, how she responds isn't good for the kids. The baby sitter is not for her. It's not enabling her or accommodating her. It's 100% for the kids' well being to protect them and also have an emotionally stable adult to care for them when you are not available. I didn't understand why we had sitters when my mother didn't work outside the home. My friends' mothers didn't do that. But I know why now and I am completely grateful for it. Thank goodness my father arranged for this.

When I had my own kids, there is no way I'd have left my mother alone with them unsupervised. It's not that she would hurt them. I know she would not deliberately do that. It's that she's not capable of doing it. I don't think they'd be safe with her. She also doesn't have the emotional stability to deal with kids.

Having assistance with the kids is not being enabling. It's for their own well being. Someone took care of us kids, and that makes all the difference.


The medication is an issue, but I agree, BPD mother could not manage without it. I agree that they should be restricted in general due to potential for abuse, but this kind of BPD doesn't have many options and it seems this is the only choice they have. But I also won't leave a child with a heavily medicated person, BPD mother sometimes falls asleep and they'd be unsupervised.

It's a tough situation as it's hard to leave someone who is so impaired for fear they could not fend for themselves. But whatever you choose to do, the children absolutely can not fend for themselves and need you to protect them.




 

[maxsterling]

When we say that a r/s with a pwbpd is like riding a roller coaster, I always thought about the rages vs. calmer times, being painted white or black etc. I now realize it's not about the r/s, it's about the disorder. Because this job story max is telling us is also a roller coaster ride. You can simply assume that any change or new significant idea will be followed by disordered emotional responses.

So, step out of the roller coaster and it wont stop moving without us in it

I am learning even the "good times" are part of the disordered roller coaster ride.  It's not like the BPD goes away for a few days/weeks.  The seemingly "normal" behavior still has disordered motivations. 

So when she makes a decision that is the same that I would make, her reasoning to come to the same conclusion is disordered.  In this case, a non-disordered person may realize that to improve one's living situation he/she may need to get a job or a different job.  That is a rational solution to the problem.  But in the case of my W, it was probably 99% emotionally based.  "I am panicking because my living situation/environment is horrible, and I need to get a job NOW to get out of it."  And then there is the feeling that all must be changed at once (logical steps don't exist), and then the feelings of being overwhelmed, then nothing gets done.  Panic emotions are why my W does anything.  Even her entering a relationship with me was using me to deal with her panic emotions.  I "solved" her problem of what to do next with her life.  I don't think she chose to be in a r/s with me - because to her there was not another option.  On my end, I had a job, life, house, personality and had I not chosen to be in a r/s with her I would have moved on and may have chosen a r/s with someone else.  It took a long time for me to understand it was not the same way for her.  I thought she was "choosing" to give up a good job to move here to be with me.  Reality?  She did not want that job anyway or to live where she was living.  I was a means of "fixing" those issues for her.

[Notwendy]

It's interesting how you explained this. As kids, we had no words for what was going on with our mother. People didn't explain it to us and we didn't understand psychology much when we were young. But it was confusing as sometimes our mother would act "normal" and then sometimes not. Eventually we decided that even during her "normal" time things weren't really normal - they just looked that way at the moment. We didn't understand why we thought this was but we figured out something was different.

I think they also feel shame about it and want to appear "normal" which is why there is the wish towards secrecy and "normalization" of the behavior. But hiding the issue makes it harder to recognize they need help and possibly have emotional limitations.

At some point, it must become apparent to someone with BPD that other people are more emotionally capable than they are, but their high intelligence leads other to have high expectations of them, expectations that perhaps they can't meet but there's no accommodation for this and they then probably feel some shame about it and also try to hide it to avoid this shame and people "discovering" their inability and possibly see them as incapable.

When my parents married, there were no expectations for women to work outside the home. Most women were housewives then. Later the women's movement came about and BPD mother announced she would not do housework as she was now "liberated" but she didn't actually do much of that anyway- so she could then normalize that due to the women's movement. Eventually though we got older and her peers were entering the workforce. We encouraged her to do something for herself. She did some volunteer work and we were cheering her on - and she was good at it but somehow she just gave it up. Then she went back to school to become certified at a job she thought she'd like. She made mostly A's. We were so impressed but it didn't lead to any kind of job. So a part of her wanted to do what her peers did, but I don't think she could emotionally follow through with it.

She needs a lot of encouragement and reassurance- she can not do most things alone.
If she decides to cook something she asks at each step- is this OK? Is this enough salt? Is this too much salt? I think there's fear of not being able to do something well.

She's attractive, intelligent, and socially competent in situations that are fun for her. Asking her to do a task overwhelms her. I think she is fearful she might not do it well? I don't think your wife was deceptive of you. I think it's survival for them. I think she genuinely wanted a job, but as that want became a reality, emotional panic set in- fear of failure, fear of discovery that she might not be able to do it, fear of making a mistake- and it overwhelmed her.

[maxsterling]

I think it's survival for them. I think she genuinely wanted a job, but as that want became a reality, emotional panic set in- fear of failure, fear of discovery that she might not be able to do it, fear of making a mistake- and it overwhelmed her.

That's basically it.  The few times W ventured out to truly do things on her own never lasted long, usually had some motivating factor (another person), and usually did not end well.

When I was 25, I decided to go on a lengthy scenic road trip in a 40 year old car.  By myself.  Not to impress anyone, to meet anyone - just because I wanted to.  When W has traveled (and she has done a lot of it), it was to escape someone or something or meet someone as a means of escape.  I can't think of a time when she told me she did something just because she wanted to.   She was escaping a failing/failed relationship, escaping a tough economic decision, escaping a lifestyle she no longer wanted.  In a sense, it was a means of survival.  I think her desire for a new house now is the same.  It is an emotional panic.  Not to say that a new house isn't good, but W seems to be willing to stretch our expenses even further to get something that is only slightly bigger than what we have, in a worse neighborhood. 

It's funny you mentioned the cooking.  In 9 years W cannot put anything into the microwave without asking me how long she should cook it for.  It's not like I am an expert, and it is not like there are dire consequences if she puts it in for too long or not long enough.  Too short the worst that happens is you put it in for more.  Too long and you have to let it cool down. 

[ForeverDad]

The baby sitter is not for her.

Be alert to the risk that W may try to subtly (or maybe not so subtly) ask or hint that the sitter do something for her.  Maybe small things at first and then amp it up.

Monitor this, or ask sitter periodically.  Well, unless that is part of sitter's job description.

[Notwendy]

Max, I think if someone has a poor sense of self, making a mistake feels like a huge threat. You know that a cooking mess up doesn't define you, but it might be a quick leap from thinking "I messed up the cooking" to "I mess up everything" "I can't do anything right" for someone who has a poor sense of self.

I think this kind of thinking along with poor boundaries is part of the issues. A mistake on my part could be the "crime of the century" to my BPD mother. If she sends us to the store and we get the wrong brand, or not the exact item she wants, her reaction is out of proportion. Perhaps this is also how she feels if she were to not do something not exactly perfectly in the kitchen.