How uBPDw Treats Me in Front of the Children

[LifewithEase]

Hi All,

I'm looking for experience and advice about how my high functioning uBPDw treats me in front of the children (4th and 7th grade).

As I learn more about BPD, I'm seeing clearly how the dysregulation (and all the aspects of BPD) and daily treatment are infecting the family.

In particular, right now I'm looking for help with the growing wedge she is creating between me and the children.

There are standard types of open actions like put downs (criticism, shaming, etc.), shut downs (you can't do that, tantrums), and parental gatekeeping (ignoring me, dismissing me, etc.).

Then there is when she gets dysregulated. I understand how pervasive and unacceptable it is.

Few Areas:

- Reversing Normalized Behavior: How do I reverse the normalization of her behavior? Sadly, which looks normal for them.There are so many examples but I'll pick a simple one: she shames or dismisses me, making me look incompetent and the children are left with the impression that I don't know what I'm doing; my opinion or knowledge is wrong; or that my feelings are inappropriate?

- JADE: In real time, how do I not JADE but show my kids that I stand up to myself? Yet, doing it in a way that doesn't trigger uBPDw even more. She tends to make my silence or my refusal to engage a "win" for her. Or the kids get frustrated I don't push back (many times when it is something small but I know that it would be a HUGE trigger. There are times, for example, where I can't leave the room: in the car during a road trip, in-line at a restaurant, in the doctor's waiting room

- Post-Episode: The kids, as am I, are afraid of her [predictably] unpredictable ways. [I've been actively working on this, setting boundaries, etc.]. For the children, how do I "clean up" after one of her dysregulation episodes? What do I say or do not say to the children?

- Parental Support. When she struggles with the kids (as all parents do) I have her back in various ways.  When I struggle with the kids, she doesn't align with me but tends to be passive and lets me struggle alone and/or allows the children to behave or say inappropriate things.

- Isolation. She sabotages, tantrums, or rejects opportunities to spend time with my family and close friends but makes time with her family a top priority for the kids.

Thanks for sharing your experiences and insight. Also, any children of uBPD parents, please share.

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[orders4946]

I am following this post to show some empathetic support as I am facing some of the same challenges you are.

I haven't managed to solve the issues so cannot offer any advice in that regard.  I have spent most of the time trying to 'smooth' things over as I felt that would be less upsetting for the children than if I argued every point with my wife.  Your children may not be as observant or aware of the issues as you are.  I think stability is key for them and hopefully you feel comfortable discussing these issues with your wife privately (setting boundaries).

Have you discussed these issues with your wife?  If so how did she respond?  My wife doesn't understand that this behaviour is wrong so doesn't 'see' the problem - it is so instinctive and natural for her to act as the primary/dominant parent.  She is possessive of the children too (I suspect the source of her supply now things have grown distant/cold in our marriage) and effectively treats me like a glorified helper (with her making all decisions regarding the children).

I also emphathise with your feeling of isolation.  My wife has taken great steps to exclude my parents and family from our nuclear family whilst seeing her family 3-5 times a week.  It is a very upsetting situation so you have my sympathies.  Does your wife give reasons for this?

[Cat Familiar]

As a child of a BPD mother, I observed her be very unkind to my father at times. She would shrink from his embrace and loudly protest, and ultimately he quit trying.

I seldom saw my dad get angry. My mother frequently was. But when the veins in my dad’s forehead started to emerge and his face turned red, it frightened me. But he always controlled himself.

My mother accused him of having affairs when he took night classes in order to better his chances for advancement in his career. She also thought he was having an affair with the tenant when he went to repair things on their rental.

Over the years, he slowly closed off, retreating into his own world. How he put up with her for so long is a mystery, but he believed in honoring obligations.

[LifewithEase]

Orders4946

Can't begin to thank you enough.

Your note is maybe better than solutions, your shared experience was validating. Amazing how similar our experiences are.

My oldest child is starting to catch on. The younger one, unfortunately, mimics my uBPDw, so that is going to be a harder navigate. I'm extremely close with both children and have always been exceptionally engaged, involved and contributing to my kids. I was raised by a single father so it is in my DNA. I am not a perfect parent but I'm mindful, even when I lose my cool.

I'm new to all of this (and the board). In the last couple of years the idea of weak boundaries is something I've been very focused on. It is really hard. Especially when there is so much mean and angry blow back. As Cat Familiar highlighted with their father,  it has been and continues to be easier to withdrawal. The motivation around stability is one of the reasons I stay in the marriage.

It is extremely challenging to discuss any of these issues with my wife. I'll quote a wise person "My wife doesn't understand that this behavior is wrong so doesn't 'see' the problem - it is so instinctive and natural for her to act as the primary/dominant parent [and needs everything controlled]."

As for isolating... She has more than reasons when it comes to not having people over or visiting others. Emotions, anger, practical logic, kids' preferences, logistics, excuses... to decline interaction. CoVID didn't help with her anxiety. I remember when we first moved in as a couple and that first weekend I invited a friend over and she went ballistic. The apartment was not set up yet. Little did I know then. Fast forward to last week, she didn't want long time out-of-town friends of mine to stop by while driving through on a road trip. She was ashamed the house was in disorder (which it was not, just a busy household with an active family). I think the gap is that my friends, including this one, and me do not have insecurities and can be vulnerable together (after 25 years of friendship). "Who cares if the house is a mess, let me see that kid art work!" She doesn't have any relationships like this. It is hard for her to be unjudged. 

You see, I'm just starting to connect all of the dots.

Sidenote: Cat Familiar's note resonated with me. The lack of intimacy and constant rejection has made me quit trying (mostly, hard as a romantic). I'm trying to not to close off but I am dedicated to creating my own world that fulfills parts of my greater self. If that make sense.

[orders4946]

As for isolating... She has more than reasons when it comes to not having people over or visiting others. Emotions, anger, practical logic, kids' preferences, logistics, excuses... to decline interaction. CoVID didn't help with her anxiety. I remember when we first moved in as a couple and that first weekend I invited a friend over and she went ballistic. The apartment was not set up yet. Little did I know then. Fast forward to last week, she didn't want long time out-of-town friends of mine to stop by while driving through on a road trip. She was ashamed the house was in disorder (which it was not, just a busy household with an active family). I think the gap is that my friends, including this one, and me do not have insecurities and can be vulnerable together (after 25 years of friendship). "Who cares if the house is a mess, let me see that kid art work!" She doesn't have any relationships like this. It is hard for her to be unjudged. 

This part resonates with me as you could describe my Wife.  You are not alone! 

My Wife started as very overtly and obviously controlling my access to friends and family by criticising them and mocking me for wanting to see them.  Covid was a gift to her as it was a reson to embed the pattern (albeit her family were deemed as 'safe').  When the dam broke and I stood my ground that changed to more subtle actions.  She now seems to 'hide' behind vaguely justifiable 'reasons' (house is a mess, people could have Covid, we are unpacking from holiday) but the net result is that we never see my close friends or family.  I feel that in a healthy relationship the answer could still be no but an alternative date or solution offered.  That never happens with me.  My goal is to establish a meaningful relationship between my Mother and my Kids (who only saw them twice since 2018) but despite the ultimatum she has only seen them 3 times in 4 months despite living 30 minutes away (and in 'controlled conditions - our house - leaving at a set time etc)

Have you disclosed to your friends and family why you are withdrawing from them?  For many years I hid the reason that it was my Wife but I eventually opened up to them and they knew all along.  You might be surprised to find that your friends and family might be the same.

Have you started setting boundaries with your Wife to rediscover your true self?  How has that been?

[Sluggo]

I allowed the demeaning  behavior
of my bpdw on me that kids witnessrf.  The older kids have since showed the same disrespect that my bpdw showed me.  

It is only my younger children that show a healthy parental respect. The older children show contempt and disdain of me.  I allowed it far too long and is one of the contributing factors of my
loss of relationship with the older kids.  

Sluggo

[Couscous]

What I wish my father had done was to have gone to therapy and not just assumed that my mother was the problem and that he was the victim.

I feel like my father failed in his duty and obligation to his children, and at the end of the day, he put his own needs first at our expense. We were the real victims — not him. Although he did leave my mother it was only to save himself — and he ended up in another dysfunctional relationship. I’m still very glad he left though, because there was a lot less tension in the house and since he was less stressed I liked him a whole lot more after he moved out.

My siblings were on Team Mom, but I was the only one who remained loyal to my father, and thought we had a close, healthy father-daughter relationship. But I have recently discovered that our relationship was not at all healthy, but enmeshed, and the consequences of this that we are currently estranged.

[Couscous]

Perhaps this video about Self-love Deficit Disorder might resonate for some of you:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bVpbsZaef8Y

Both of my parents suffer from this condition, and since this is what they modeled for us, now my siblings and I suffer from it too. Maybe we should change the name of this website to SLDDfamily.com. BPD/NPD and codependency are all just symptoms of SLDD, and are two sides of the same coin.

[Lastlovelost]

Much the same as your position. Outright I would say, leave the partner and take the kids but having a BPD partner myself I know that's not what you want to do. I think as loved ones we are FAR to understanding and accepting of their awful behaviour towards us. They should be held more accountable for their actions, we should be able to hold them more accountable for their actions. Honestly, I think it's the lack of accountability and consequences that allows them to continue like this. Social media and WOKE culture play a huge part in this and love to down play personal responsibility and consequences in all things but particularly in relationships. Do not fall victim to it. They are, after all, an adult with full mental capacity, albeit influenced heavily by their emotions. Therefore, they are to be held accountable for their actions. They can't have it both ways, one the one hand they can't use their BPD as en excuse to get away with things but then when you out in your boundaries and treat them as if they do have BPD argue that they are entitled to say/do what they do because their feelings are valid. They have to pick a side and you have to reinforce their decision. If they pick BPD then you explain to them that you will treat them as such, you take control from now on, they have a mental disability and have to be treated as such. If they choose the latter, then you call them out on their BS as they have chosen to be treated like an adult, fully responsible for their actions.

Now, should they acknowledge they have BPD and a mental disability, only you can decide how you will manage it. After all, it is you and the children whom are affected and have to deal with the damage being caused. This has to be done on an individual basis but do not allow them to negotiate how you will care for them. As I said, they chose this path and now have admitted they do not have mental capacity. So out the window goes all the privileges of being a responsible adult. On the other hand, you must now give 100% care and take 100% responsibility of your sBPDw, as they are now essential another one of your children.

Hope that helps. If he/she gives you the ultimatum speech then walk away. At the end of the day, what would be worse... living your life treated like a second class citizen, sub human, with no rights... OR... going through a shorter period of admittedly very traumatic treatment but knowing that after which you'll be free of the abuse forever. The choice is ultimately down to you.

[mitten]

I'm going through the same thing although my kids are younger, so I don't have it figured out yet, but I have a book recommendation if interested?  I'm currently re-reading (listening to the audiobook) "Raising Resilient Children with a Borderline or Narcissist" and it's amazing.  It's a newer book but many members here have found it very helpful. 

It's probably the one book I would recommend to people that have a BPD spouse who also have kids.  The other books Walking on Eggshells and Stop Caretaking are great too, but I find Raising Resilient Children provides a great overview of BPD and boundary setting while being even more applicable to people who have kids. 

 

[Cat Familiar]

They are, after all, an adult with full mental capacity, albeit influenced heavily by their emotions. Therefore, they are to be held accountable for their actions. They can't have it both ways, one the one hand they can't use their BPD as en excuse to get away with things but then when you out in your boundaries and treat them as if they do have BPD argue that they are entitled to say/do what they do because their feelings are valid. They have to pick a side and you have to reinforce their decision. If they pick BPD then you explain to them that you will treat them as such, you take control from now on, they have a mental disability and have to be treated as such. If they choose the latter, then you call them out on their BS as they have chosen to be treated like an adult, fully responsible for their actions.

In an ideal world it would work that way. Unfortunately they are fundamentally underdeveloped in many key aspects of controlling their emotions and their behavior and as a result, cannot function rationally when they are dysregulated.

Binary choices can be made when they are functioning in a calm way, but expecting them to be consistent when upset is certain to be met with disappointment.

In addition, we recommend never telling them that they have BPD. Since it’s a shame based disorder, conveying that information is likely to drive a deep wedge between the two of you that may never be remediated.

[LifewithEase]

Thanks for the discussion.

Cat Familiar brings up a consistent perspective throughout so many of the threads: there is no logic and ability to control in BPD actions. That is hard to understand either logically and emotionally.

I'm starting to realize how much work I need to do on myself, boundaries. In my own day to day there are so many areas that BPD impacts. I wish I had come to this so many years ago.

These board discussions have been fantastic. Shared experience, hard truths, so much that resonates.

Interesting, this thread made me realize a few things. As I've started to learn and build boundaries with my uBPDw:

- She is increasingly lashing out in front of the kids

- There has been increasing Parent Alienation

But most of all:

- I'm just flat out exhausted on so many levels: the daily badgering and dismissiveness, the weekly predictably unpredictable dysregulation; trying to get the energy to be mindful and respond appropriately in the moment of her aggression and meanness along with follow up post-incident. [Sounds like I'm always walking on eggshells ;p)

I have started Raising Resilient Children, having finished the highly recommended Stop Caretaking the Borderline.

Responding to Cat Familiar's comment on telling them they have BPD: I found this board because my uBPDw found my privately placed copy of my Stop Caretaking the Borderline. She was angry but it seemed to calm her for a week or so... like she was trying to check herself. Yet, in a recent fight she brought it up, disparaging my work with my therapist and accusing me of making up it up to fit my needs. I calmly asked her how she felt about the book? "I don't care." Then I asked her how I might feel about her finding the book. "I don't care"