Can marriage trigger a significant change

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I’ve been in a long-term relationship with my now fiancé who exhibits significant BPD traits but does not acknowledge them. We have broken up several times over the years. After the most significant break up I asked her to marry me thinking it would resolve the issues which seemed to be based on insecurity, it did not. The relationship has definitely taken a toll on me and I am sure is probably not good for my health. In spite of this I have held onto it justifying that the good part of the relationship outweighs the bad part. Overtime I have read much about BPD online. One thing that multiple people have written is that after getting married, their partner changed for the worse and the relationship became unmanageable. Is this a significant possibility, does the closeness of actually being married create even more pushback causing the situation to deteriorate?

[Mushu]

I’ve been in a long-term relationship with my now fiancé who exhibits significant BPD traits but does not acknowledge them. We have broken up several times over the years. After the most significant break up I asked her to marry me thinking it would resolve the issues which seemed to be based on insecurity, it did not. The relationship has definitely taken a toll on me and I am sure is probably not good for my health. In spite of this I have held onto it justifying that the good part of the relationship outweighs the bad part. Overtime I have read much about BPD online. One thing that multiple people have written is that after getting married, their partner changed for the worse and the relationship became unmanageable. Is this a significant possibility, does the closeness of actually being married create even more pushback causing the situation to deteriorate?

[SinisterComplex]

Hello Mushu, welcome to the fam. Sorry for the circumstances that led to you seeking us out, but I am happy you found us. Judging by your circumstances I believe your thread will be best served here on this board. You should receive better responses. I myself, my teammates, and other members are here for you. Please continue to vent, share, and ask as many questions as you need to.

I will check back in later.

In the meantime please be kind to you and take care of yourself.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[BigOof]

I went through the same - lots of breakups with red flags. My blamer forced my hand into marriage with a surprise child.

Run. Run as fast as you can. And then run some more. The trail of destruction post-marriage was epic. Assault, stalking, jealousy, threats, police, child protective services, lawyers, lawyers, and more lawyers, and all utterly ineffective against pwBPD who doesn't play by the norms.

[kells76]

Hi Mushu, joining with Sinister Complex to welcome you to the group.

This seems like an important realization that you had:

After the most significant break up I asked her to marry me thinking it would resolve the issues which seemed to be based on insecurity, it did not.

So, to work with your question:

does the closeness of actually being married create even more pushback causing the situation to deteriorate?

...one aspect of BPD to understand is that it can be described as a disorder of close relationships. Many pwBPD (persons with BPD), in non-intimate relationships like as a neighbor, acquaintance, coworker, etc, can come across as "broadly normal" -- warm, supportive, charismatic, exciting, fun, etc.

However, in closer relationships (family member, dating partner, spouse, etc), more of the relational dysfunction shows up. Whether from genetic or environmental causes (nature, nurture, or both), pwBPD struggle deeply to have functional, non-extreme intimate relationships. They may suffer from an inability to interact skillfully and non-hurtfully, and often cannot and/or will not see how their harmfully intense, widely changing emotions bring damage to those they love.

One phrase that gets used to describe a low-skilled way many pwBPD manage intimacy is the "push-pull dynamic". Check out our workshop on it here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=99725.0

and let us know your thoughts.

...

Just as PDs are spectrum disorders, ranging from mild impairment/impact to very low functioning, so the impact of relationships with pwBPD is on a spectrum. Some members here can coparent fairly amicably with their ex with BPD, with only complaining, double standards, and light bickering from the xwBPD. Our situation (my H's kids' mom has many traits) was more intense, with emotional manipulation of the kids, Dad getting blocked out of parenting, and lots of covert conflict and badmouthing. BigOof's experience sounds like it has been on the more intense end of the spectrum, so it's understandable why he would not recommend getting more deeply involved with a pwBPD, given how painful and destructive his relationship was.

Whether mild, medium, or severe impact, the question isn't: will us getting closer fix my pwBPD? (or, "will having a child fix my pwBPD", or "will me promising to never see my family again fix my pwBPD", or "will me quitting my job to stay home fix my pwBPD"?)

The question is really: can I accept that this person is who they are, and can I decide what I myself can work on and can cope with, knowing that I cannot change the other person, and they will be who they will be -- and, they are showing me who they are?

...

So, couple of concepts going on here:

-"push-pull dynamic"

and

-external things not having the power to change who a pwBPD is

...

what do you think?

[Elspethan]

Hello Mushu,

I’m a newbie too - so not someone who can offer retroactive, wise guidance so much - but a fellow traveller in real time.

I’d posted in a different thread here a month or more back. An outpouring of the angst and pain of what had been happening for me.

Basically, a husband I loved dearly, a beautiful relationship of three years, marriage for just over one year, new home together and….

An affair earlier this year that ran for at least several months. Yes, I also think, somehow, that the ‘happy marriage part’ is what did it…

Devastating and painful, which is one part of it all….

Now, because I have maintained I want to separate, things are starting to get scary and out of control. Also leaving me in absolutely no doubt that my husband is indeed someone with (undiagnosed) bpd. All the behaviours are matching.

I have been living under the same roof as him and trying not to be punitive etc (his father has been unwell, I told him I knew about the affair and why I knew to give him/us a chance  to talk it through, plus I grossly underestimated I think, where his unbalance could go).

He has been saying that I’m mentally not well to say he’s been unfaithful, that I’m a lunatic. That he simply does not accept that we’re separated.

Several weeks ago he faked (I strongly suspect) a dizzy/heart attack and demanded to be taken to casualty. I think he’s mounting a case to say that my “coercive domestic violence” (his words to describe my claim he’s had an affair) is causing him physical harm.

Last night he asked me to marry him (again) if that makes sense - and stupidly, oh so very stupidly, I had been intimate with him as a once off, whilst still maintaining that we are separated. (I had shaken my head at the marriage question)

It was a stupid, stupid thing for me to do, spectacularly foolish.  I broke down crying afterward to say I was sorry, it was a mistake to have done it, that we were still separated. And I knew that it was the wrong thing to do and I was sorry to have sent any mixed messages.

This evening my gp contacted me to say  that my husband had made an appointment with her today to ‘voice his concerns’ about my mental state -that I’m manic, up at all hours, that I cry, I have a garage full of unopened purchases and…that he would like a CAT team to come and see me.

So I’ve spent this evening giving my gp details of friends who saw me over the weekend so she can speak to them so that I can ‘prove’ I’m not manic. I have sent her photos of the contents of my garage. I have had to cancel my work day tomorrow.

Tomorrow I will be making urgent (re) contact with my lawyer. I got complacent because I still love so very much, the memory of my husband, but it’s so clear that this man is going to take me to the bottom of the ocean if I’m not careful.

Sorry to scare you, but it’s just that the gap in time between the marriage faltering and this set of behaviours has only been a couple of months for me. I don’t even feel I have the luxury to grieve him at the moment. It’s dawning on me that he will be quite dangerous to my well being and I need out as soon as I possibly, possibly can.

I’m also a sterling example so far of what not to do:

- I let my pro activity drift
- I lapsed because I think I am  trauma bonded
-  I have been too frank with him
- it was deluded/wishful thinking for me to think  that ‘break up’ intimacy  wouldn’t be harmful for both of us

Take care and look after your self….

[ForeverDad]

...one aspect of BPD to understand is that it can be described as a disorder of close relationships. Many pwBPD (persons with BPD), in non-intimate relationships like as a neighbor, acquaintance, coworker, etc, can come across as "broadly normal" -- warm, supportive, charismatic, exciting, fun, etc.

However, in closer relationships (family member, dating partner, spouse, etc), more of the relational dysfunction shows up. Whether from genetic or environmental causes (nature, nurture, or both), pwBPD struggle deeply to have functional, non-extreme intimate relationships.

Similar to above, I often state that the closer the relationship, the more evident and impacting the disordered perceptions and behaviors.  A co-worker or someone casually or infrequently met will notice something 'off' but not be greatly impacted.  You get married and then you shift from a somewhat close relationship (you can more-or-less easily call it off without legal consequences) to a close obligated relationship (with lasting implications such as co-parenting and requiring the huge hurdle of divorce to exit).

Whether mild, medium, or severe impact, the question isn't: will us getting closer fix my pwBPD? (or, "will having a child fix my pwBPD", or "will me promising to never see my family again fix my pwBPD", or "will me quitting my job to stay home fix my pwBPD"?)

The question is really: can I accept that this person is who they are, and can I decide what I myself can work on and can cope with, knowing that I cannot change the other person, and they will be who they will be -- and, they are showing me who they are?

And yes to your question, the behaviors often DO worsen when permanency (marriage and/or children) is added to the relationship.  Part of it may be that the person senses you are more obligated to them and they can "let it all hang out" (their entitled perceptions) expecting you to accept, suffer, comply, appease, etc.

[Turkish]

After the most significant break up I asked her to marry me thinking it would resolve the issues which seemed to be based on insecurity, it did not

How did it not resolve and how did she react?

[Buddy Joe]

I’ve been in a long-term relationship with my now fiancé who exhibits significant BPD traits but does not acknowledge them. We have broken up several times over the years. After the most significant break up I asked her to marry me thinking it would resolve the issues which seemed to be based on insecurity, it did not.

Hi, Mushu!   Welcome to the fam!  

She questioned my intent and my love for her most often than I wanted her to. It gets tiring to always be questioned and for her to tell me that I never loved her. When she seeks for validation it's mainly based on actions and disregards whatever I say. I used to just let her be but as time passed by, I stood my ground and told her these things aren't okay anymore. That's when she started spiraling when I wouldn't just let her talk me down. Her basis of me not loving her because I fight back when things get out of hand or when I get hit below the belt.

I proposed to my girlfriend when we were almost 2 years in the relationship. She accepted it and was so thrilled to see the ring. It wasn't the most romantic proposal but she was happy. She returned my ring a month later because she got so mad at me for hanging out with my co-workers, which I asked her to join so she wouldn't feel left out. She decided not to and got drunk that night and kept calling me. I was with my friends at my place and I left to go to her. She did that to get attention. Even told me did she need to get herself drunk for me to notice her pain.

6 months after I asked her if she was ready to take my ring back and she did. We were about to go on a month long vacation with the kids. I was so happy to see her wear it. One night, she got so mad over something that I reacted to. I told her I didn't appreciate it that she embarrassed me in front of strangers. She was denying what she did and told me I was just overreacting. When we got back at our hotel she got drunk and threw the glass on the wall. She got a piece of the glass to cut herself. In my attempt to stop her, I was the one who got cut. Good thing there were 3 rooms at our flat, she slept on the bed and I slept on the couch. I found the ring on the floor, thank God I found it or else that would have been a big issue.

After that instance I never gave the ring back until I was sure that I'm ready to do this for my whole life. We were nearing the 2-year mark of being "engaged" so she wanted me to sell the ring instead since we weren't getting married anytime soon. I was baffled by this since she returned the ring to me. In relation to that my understanding was she broke off the engagement. But all this time for her we were engaged but she would refer to herself as just a girlfriend but before she'd call herself my fiancé. So confusing. And eventually found a way to find fault in me again, that I assumed we weren't engaged. For her we were, it was just a ring for her but what was important was the commitment.  

[livednlearned]

does the closeness of actually being married create even more pushback causing the situation to deteriorate?

Marriage recreates a family dynamic, and for many pwBPD, family was a place of profound trauma.

Some of that trauma was profound enough to severely arrest development and a false self emerges, one that is not sufficient or functional enough to carry out the give and take of a relationship.

She likely has a script looping in her mind in which she is the victim/child and the marriage becomes the stage for that story to play out, over and over.

What are the good times like? And how do they compare to the bad times?

[BigOof]

Marriage recreates a family dynamic, and for many pwBPD, family was a place of profound trauma.

Some of that trauma was profound enough to severely arrest development and a false self emerges, one that is not sufficient or functional enough to carry out the give and take of a relationship.

She likely has a script looping in her mind in which she is the victim/child and the marriage becomes the stage for that story to play out, over and over.

Well put, livednlearned.

[SinisterComplex]

Marriage recreates a family dynamic, and for many pwBPD, family was a place of profound trauma.

Some of that trauma was profound enough to severely arrest development and a false self emerges, one that is not sufficient or functional enough to carry out the give and take of a relationship.

She likely has a script looping in her mind in which she is the victim/child and the marriage becomes the stage for that story to play out, over and over.

What are the good times like? And how do they compare to the bad times?

This is perhaps the most spot on thing I have seen in a while. As I have mentioned in some posts through the years here sufferers of BPD have a tendency to replay their experiences with you.

For those wanting to understand...think of BPD almost like a learning disability. Why do I say that? Well the sufferer's growth gets stunted due to the trauma they experienced. They may chronologically age, but they do not emotionally or mentally mature. They are stuck in time in a sense.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[livednlearned]

the sufferer's growth gets stunted due to the trauma they experienced. They may chronologically age, but they do not emotionally or mentally mature. They are stuck in time in a sense.

To be fair, this happens to people without BPD too.

Many of us with codependent traits replay family of origin (FOO) dynamics ourselves.

Many of us have BPD sufferers in our FOO, or personalities that teed us up for the same kind of emotionally severe BPD relationships. Emotional maturity suffers when you feel unsafe or unseen in a dysfunctional family.

If you haven't examined why you made the choices you have, like proposing marriage to fix her unresolved, deep-seated insecurities, there is a higher than average chance that the relationship will fail or become unsafe for both of you.

She requires someone who is emotionally healthy, someone who can be an emotional leader, with superb boundaries.

You must be willing to call 911 if she becomes dangerous, whether to herself or towards you.

You must be able to do all of this while balancing the tightrope between creating a validating environment and asserting boundaries, the ones that you can control.

You are more likely to succeed if you see an individual therapist who can help you make sense of the dynamics and demonstrate how to communicate and set boundaries.

Very few of us entered these relationships with the kinds of skills needed, nor did we know when to pull the rip cord when the relationship became unmanageable. For many of us, the skills are often not intuitive and must be learned.

It's a special needs relationship. You must have special skills to be in these relationships.

BPD is considered by some to be a fatal disease because of the high rate of completed suicides.

If she engages in self-harm and suicidal ideation, you must learn best practices to avoid making things worse.

[Manic Miner]

It's a special needs relationship. You must have special skills to be in these relationships.

Oh great, just as as I suspected. I used to joke that I have two kids with special needs, my daughter and my wife.
Turns out it's not a joke.

My T once said that I'm the one that can pull the cord and has all the power to decide whether our relationship would continue or fail, not her. And I do see my reluctance to end it all.

To be fair, at this stage, I'm not even sure what I want, to be honest. I love living separated - not because of the loneliness (it sucks at times so much), but because I have a peace of mind and can do things much easier, with no drama and all the weight that comes with her. Like 10x easier.
But on the other hand, I miss having my family together. When those moments were good, they were very good, warm and uplifting. I still have feelings for her. I also feel sad, despite treating me like a punch bag sometimes, as I know it's her undeveloped and traumatized emotional state of a disorder. One of my newly "found" boundaries is that I cannot tolerate rage anymore. Like 0% tolerance. And I'm afraid she can't stick to it. Drama and insecurities are part of her life, wherever she feels disturbed, even as a thought. I hope for our MC, he seems good and knows how to treat high-conflict couples.

[Buddy Joe]

“sufferers of BPD have a tendency to replay their experiences with you.”

Is it safe to say that they unconsciously recreate the same situation that caused their trauma? In turn illicit the same reaction from the non and that’s the time they tell you that you are a trigger to them.

Ex. My pwBPD would tell me that she reminds me of her mom. We treat her the same way. Her mom has BPD by the way. I don’t shout at her and I do not lose control by giving demeaning remarks.

I called her before to tell her my ETA and asked which side I was going to pick her up. I came from the house and picked her up at the bar. She went out with her colleagues. Ever since we started I encourage her to go out so eventually she can get a feel of a balanced relationship. It doesn’t always have to be us.

When I got there her directions were confusing and couldn’t tell me which side I was going to pick her up. Her feet hurt and she just ignored what I said to stay put and I will go to her instead. Up to this point it was a bit traffic and she kept pushing that my tone changed and that I am annoyed. I kept saying I was fine but she just wouldn’t stop. I ended up caving in and reacting. Then she told me she reminds me of her mom who would shout at her and be impatient when picking her up. Her mom curses and belittles her when she was a kid and well up until now.

Then she became sarcastic by telling me that maybe she needed to relive all her traumas and triggers, which according to her I cause, in order for her to understand them better when she’s older.  

[ForeverDad]

“sufferers of BPD have a tendency to replay their experiences with you.”

Is it safe to say that they unconsciously recreate the same situation that caused their trauma?

I would agree with your observation, perhaps unconsciously intentional.  Seems everybody is able to describe how it was, with variations.

As my ex had told me, her stepfather came into her family's life when she was 3 years old.  He was a bad guy,  slept all day and then roamed the house at night and distressed the girls.  One time when she and her sister tried to enlist support from their mother, she retorted that if they ever did anything with her husband, they'd be kicked out.  I concluded SF was abuser NPD and mother supportive BPD, sometimes a relationship that can feed off one another.

Anyway, when we got married, and for some time thereafter, I felt I'd saved her.  But over the next decade there were increasing blind rages and issues with co-workers and friends.  Clueless me decided we should have children and she'd be happy.  Bad idea.

Things got worse.  As I look back, I believe in her eyes I became a father which compared me to her stepfather, her childhood.  She became more remote.  Then it intensified when our child was approaching 3 years of age.  I became the focus of her rages and distress.  Intimacy became more rare.  She was fearful there were abductors behind every tree and bush.

Our marriage imploded before he was 4 years old.  Yet she never could or would connect the dots.

[Mushu]

Thank all of you so much for your reply’s. It really helps to keep me focused on the realities of this relationship, which I tend to ignore by focusing on the good times we share most of the time. It’s very hard to walk away, I know logically I definitely need to. It’s wonderful to have support from you who know about these difficult relationships. I feel isolated in my knowledge of her behaviors that only I experience, everyone else only sees her positive upside.Thanks again for being there.

[ForeverDad]

It’s very hard to walk away, I know logically I definitely need to.

I am an advocate for marriage, believe it or not.  That said, there can be a point in time where you need to listen to facts and your logical mind even though your heart hasn't caught up... yet.

[SaltyDawg]

Thank all of you so much for your reply’s. It really helps to keep me focused on the realities of this relationship, which I tend to ignore by focusing on the good times we share most of the time. It’s very hard to walk away, I know logically I definitely need to. It’s wonderful to have support from you who know about these difficult relationships. I feel isolated in my knowledge of her behaviors that only I experience, everyone else only sees her positive upside.Thanks again for being there.

I won't tell you to walk away.  However, I will share the following from my situation:

Courtship - Love-bombing all of the time until 2 weeks after our honeymoon was finished - I was an oversexed and totally seduced by her emotional and physical intensity torwards me.
Marriage - Two weeks after our honeymoon ended, she threatened suicide, she wanted me to change to something I was not and suppressed throughout our courtship.  I told her I felt "baited and switched" on the marriage - she reverted back to love bombing after she alluded to the fact I 'could leave if I wanted to'.  Well, the love-bombing was awesome at the time, so I didn't leave...
Pregnancy - two weeks after we found out we were pregnant, she changed again, and she knew I was committed with a child on the way, and it has been a devaluing hell ever since.

I know she has severe abandonment issues, a hallmark of BPD, and doesn't want to be alone as she has articulated that on several occasions explaining why she did the things she did.

Even though I knew something was wrong with the suicide threat and love bombing, I didn't leave, as I was blind to the attention I was getting.  Now that I am two decades older, and I would like to think wiser -- if I had known what I know now back then, this tragedy of this relationship might have been averted, even after being newlyweds.

[PeteWitsend]

... It’s very hard to walk away, I know logically I definitely need to. ...

Before you commit one way or the other, you need to figure this out about yourself.  WHY is it hard for you to walk away from this relationship which is  - by your own account - not healthy? 

That's something I didn't do.  That's something you need to consider. 

It's good you've reached out here and are learning more about this terrible disorder before you commit.

To answer your question in my own words, yes, I think the closeness of marriage DOES create pushback from the pwBPD.  And in my mind, based on my experience and what I've learned about the disorder, I'd say there were two reasons.

One, people described to me the "push - pull" of BPDers in relationships.  They fear enmeshment/engulfment in their partners (and their feelings of a loss of self?) or close family members leading them to lash out, and push them away.  And yet, in contrast to that, when they have succeeded in pushing them away, they feel their other great fear, abandonment, and that's where the "lovebombing" or sudden emotional seeking comes into play. 

Two, I noticed if BPDxw received male attention, she'd usually find something to fight about with me.  My theory is she felt resentment that she wasn't still single, and couldn't go see if "the grass is greener" on the other side, and so, in BPD fashion, took it out on me with an emotional overreaction.  So, yeah, I don't think pwBPD do well with commitment either.

And of course, you can't shoe-horn every fight into these causes above; every pwBPD is different and have their own anxieties and relationship dynamics at play, and since they're typically "high conflict" as a general rule, expect bigger fights over all the usual things couples fight about... money, household duties, childcare responsibilities, etc.