Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
November 24, 2024, 03:05:07 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Kells76, Once Removed, Turkish
Senior Ambassadors: EyesUp, SinisterComplex
  Help!   Boards   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
Experts share their discoveries [video]
99
Could it be BPD
BPDFamily.com Production
Listening to shame
Brené Brown, PhD
What is BPD?
Blasé Aguirre, MD
What BPD recovery looks like
Documentary
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Conflicted Couple & Therapy with uBPDw (Any Advice?)  (Read 3521 times)
LifewithEase
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 129


« on: October 04, 2022, 04:54:00 PM »

My high functioning uBPDw and I have agreed to start couples therapy. Our goal is to create more harmony in the household and lower conflict.

I'm looking for advice and experience with couples therapy with their uBPDw.

I've research the BPDfamily website (threads below). But looking for fresh perspective, resonance, and conversation.

Many trusted friends and family, including my personal Therapists and my social worker best friend, said to be wary of going to therapy with a pwPBD:

> the risk that uBPDw will make it about their grievances, only defending herself, casting all blame on me

>she will use therapy as a "seal of approval" for divorce or  separation, something she can use with her family and friends, but most of all with our kids (lots of my own insecurity built in this one ;)

>if the therapist is not clued in to BPD, uBPDw will use therapy to validate her point-of-view (BPD feelings v. facts) without dealing with her part

>the risk that uBPDw will "beat me up" emotionally in/out of the room 
   - (in past counseling after a calm, pleasant, adult exchange about a hard topic that uBPDw felt uncomfortable with, my uBPDw would rage at me in the parking lot and give me the silent treatment for days afterward. Happened every-single-time we touched on something hard.

My high function uBPDw comes across amazingly put-together, calm, well-mannered, but most importantly highly articulate, nimble & organized in thought, yet stays away from vulnerabilities or hard truth (unless it is about my biggest struggles or insecurities); she can be brutally honest but in a way that keeps up appearances

Also, it was highly suggested to me not to "mention" BPD to the new therapist, at least initially. Making therapy about BPD could trigger in all the wrong ways. She does have Anosognosia*. I think she knows something is up deep down inside but can't deal with the vulnerability. She will not even talk to me about the mental illness of her father, aunt, and uncle.

We have been in couples therapy before, and the pattern was for uBPDw to bail out when the long hard work shifted focused on her. I usually went first as the more empathic one... willing to be vulnerable. The caretaker, right
Logged
ForeverDad
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: separated 2005 then divorced
Posts: 18475


You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2022, 08:30:32 PM »

All 4 items of concern are ones that came to my mind too.  There's words for it... Blamefest, Shifting Blame, Denial, etc.

Also, it was highly suggested to me not to "mention" BPD to the new therapist, at least initially.

Have you read Stop Walking on Eggshells?  If so, you may be able to comment that you've read that book and yes you are walking on eggshells around your spouse.  There are many other books and articles there on that board too.

That you've tried couples therapy before gives an indication that this attempt may fail too.  Let's hope it works, but do you have Plan B or Plan C just in case?

You are father to the two children?  One point to acknowledge is that even if they're not the focus of her poor behaviors, it does impact them.  They are not living a normal childhood.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2022, 08:36:15 PM by ForeverDad » Logged

BigOof
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Never-ending divorce
Posts: 376



« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2022, 09:19:55 PM »

You need to ask the therapist if they'll release their notes given a signed subpoena. You DO NOT want them to release the notes under any circumstance.

Why? PwBPD will use the therapist as a flying monkey to attack you if things go south. Their notes are the perfect place to enter fabricated events (of domestic violence) into the record without you even knowing about it and it is too late.

BigOff

P.S. You'll be back here in a few months telling everyone how much of a waste of time couples therapy was pwBPD and that it should be avoided at all costs.
Logged
LifewithEase
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 129


« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2022, 12:39:46 PM »

Thanks for the straightforward advice BigOof and ForeverDad. Looking forward to more from others.

Yes, I have a plan B and C... not expecting therapy to be the solution. Hope it helps reduces the discord. Possibly create a rules of conduct with a 3rd party that can be the heavy lift for daily accountability.

I truly believe I need to first work on myself, mainly boundaries, get some stuff in order and then be in a place where I can decide what path is best for me (and my kids). I need to also figure out this parent alienation theme others on the board have picked up on.

BigOof, regarding subpoena. I thought that if you're subpoenaed you have no choice but to share with the court? Notes or no notes. However, if I were to ask the therapist for this request it would be a HUGE trigger for my uBPDw.

Could a court not subpoena this community list/board?

During a particularly over the top dysregulation, my uBPDw has said I was an unfit father and a deadbeat, which is so so so far from the truth so I can't assume she would not go even more hardcore. I did work with my therapist on those false accusations. It was a hard emotional hit early before I knew about BPD. And shared with a friend so I had "record." Anybody in my community or school systems would struggle to characterize me as such.

Your advice is a type I'm looking for... not that I'm going to worst case scenario but as someone shared with me wisely "your uBPDw might be a more difficult ex-wife than wife."

I need to think about the practical, professional and social aspects of the future, not just the emotional.
Logged
livednlearned
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Family other
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 12866



« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2022, 03:02:29 PM »

Our goal is to create more harmony in the household and lower conflict.


Meaning, your wife wants to go to counseling together?

Or just you?

From your post, it seems you are pretty informed about the limitations and potential harms of doing couples therapy together.

What's the nature of the conflict? I think that matters a lot when thinking about where to get support.

You mention high-functioning, which typically means a spouse who is not engaging in self harm and suicidal ideation. Bill Eddy has a spectrum of severity I find helpful:

*generally cooperative, not dangerous
*not cooperative, not dangerous
*not cooperative, dangerous

By dangerous, he means people who engage in self-harm, suicidal ideation, intimate partner violence, substance abuse, false allegations of child abuse or other abuse.

If by high-functioning you mean generally cooperative, not dangerous, it's important to recognize that when divorce is on the table, people who were formerly not dangerous can become so simply because the legal system is inherently adversarial.

People on this board who have been through a one-two BPD/divorce punch typically witnessed firsthand the dangerous side of BPD.

If you are at all concerned that your wife may weaponize the legal system to *win* in court, that's something to keep in mind when it comes to couples counseling. In which case, it's probably wise to look at counseling as a form of documentation that your wife might use to build a case against you for custody reasons.

Divorce will cause her to split you black and the family law system will help with that.

You may want to do an informational meeting (discreetly) with an attorney or two or five and start to piece together the full picture of where things could go.

No one wants to get divorced, just like no one wants cancer. But if you did get cancer, it's important to do some research so you know what to expect. Learning what could happen can help you increase your odds, versus pretending it's a done deal, or worse, that closing your eyes will make it go away.

My lawyer once said to me, "I can help you with the contract side of your marriage. For the emotional side, it's cheaper and healthier and way more helpful if you work through those issues with a therapist."

It helped me see that I was looking at the business side of the arrangement, the legal side, which made it easier to keep those inquiries discreet. Kind of like getting insurance. You aren't betraying your wife, you're protecting the interests of your kids in the event she makes a move to use the court system to *win,* a BPD way of justifying why the marriage could not endure. 
Logged

Breathe.
Lifehasitsups

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19


« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2022, 08:00:05 PM »

My uBPDw just lost it on our third couple therapist today. I’m losing all hope. This therapist was amazing and worked really hard to thank my wife for coming each session and also politely drilling down on very sensitive issues. My wife blew up on me after almost every session. Like I said this therapist was awesome and didn’t end up improving the situation.

My wife is not doing well and not put together at this stage in our lives. During the sessions she constantly accused me of not appreciating her and not being there for her. I had concrete examples of showing appreciation and my wife just looked dumb founded like she didn’t know what to say many times.

I hope for the best for you!
Logged
Couscous
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Sibling
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 1072


« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2022, 12:10:31 AM »

In my experience my pwBPD was only interested in playing a game of “Courtroom” and, “Look how hard I’ve Tried”. https://ericberne.com/games-people-play/look-how-hard-ive-tried/

The only kind of marriage therapy I’d personally consider attempting with a BPD is with a therapist who has taken level 3 PACT training: https://www.thepactinstitute.com/what-is-pact



Logged
livednlearned
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Family other
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 12866



« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2022, 12:27:46 PM »

During the sessions she constantly accused me of not appreciating her and not being there for her. I had concrete examples of showing appreciation

For most of us, we can't respond to something emotional in nature (e.g. she feels unappreciated) with logic (e.g. proof, concrete examples) because the narrative comes across as: "I feel bad" met with "you're wrong to feel that way."

A lot of us fall or fell into the trap of justifying, arguing, denying, explaining (JADE). The alternative to JADEing, which often makes things worse, is to validate. "Tell me more. I'm listening." The goal being to create a validating environment (harder than it sounds, at least for me).

Building a validating environment is to build trust. It has to be balanced with good boundaries, which is a whole other challenging skillset if boundaries don't come to you naturally.

So maybe what happened in that session is that she told you how she felt (detached from your reality but not hers), and you naturally defended yourself (JADE), and the counselor didn't catch the dynamic. Your wife would then feel unsupported and maybe unsafe: "Here's yet another example how no one supports me."

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, good or bad, justified or not, only that these are pretty common communication issues when one person suffers from BPD.

From your perspective, the sessions are to get your wife to see the ways in which she needs to address problems. Her goals will likely be different, maybe simply to seek validation.

It depends on the ways in which her BPD presents, whether she has comorbidities or her traits are severe.

I read somewhere how the severity of the original abandonment can dictate the severity of the traits, which makes sense in a way I hadn't thought about before.

The only times my n/BPDx husband showed something that looked like vulnerability or cooperation around hard issues was when I focused on me. He simply didn't have the wiring to do that. In focusing on me, he seemed to feel safer to make small changes, although it wasn't anything we could ever discuss.

A benign example is that he could cook really well. I wanted to cook but he would berate me relentlessly. It was abusive and set a bad example for our son. So I agreed with him: I didn't know how to cook and needed to learn. I signed up for classes, and he begrudgingly became curious what I was learning. The kitchen was his, at least in his mind, and was a source of supply, so I didn't get much time in the kitchen to cook, but I saw glimpses of the kind of collaborative relationship I wanted to have, at least for that one issue.

It's sort of the "do you want to be right or do you want to get along" approach.

Me personally, I could not stomach the entirety of the behaviors, especially given the impact on our son. Most of what I was able to do was make it from one minute to the next, one day to the next.

Mileage does vary  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2022, 12:42:16 PM by livednlearned » Logged

Breathe.
PeteWitsend
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1025


« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2022, 11:06:51 AM »

I'm a little late here, but the advice I received is that couples therapy/ marital counseling is targeted at couples that are essentially "normal" but having trouble communicating with eachother and adjusting to life together.

It's NOT intended to identify and improve personal mental/behavioral/psychological issues, which is the major problem underlying BPD-relationships.

At best, a competent and honest therapist or counselor will let you know - privately - that your partner likely has some mental issues aside from the relationship problems that they need to focus on in individual therapy. 

I've written about my experiences in marital counseling wiht BPDxw too many times here already, but I agree with pretty much everyone else in this thread above: the pwBPD approaches therapy as an opportunity to shift blame for the problems in the relationship to the Non-disordered partner, and also "validate" to the non-disordered partner that the pwBPD is fine, and no further intrusions from objective third-parties into the relationship are warranted.

If the sessions don't go the way the pwBPD wants, and the T or MC starts to scrutinize their behavior, they will likely throw a fit and refuse to keep going back. 
Logged
LifewithEase
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 129


« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2022, 06:03:36 PM »

Lots to reply here.

First to PeteWitsend:

- You're spot on. My uBPDw wants us to focus on practical co-habitation improvements. In the past, Attachment Therapy was a mess for her. Actually, all of the session and types over the years never really helped on emotional improvement, emotional intimacy (all forms, including vulnerability), communication, "how-to-fight," and, most of all, repair. Oh, do I yearn for repair... and intimacy. but fast forward I now understand that pwBPD have a really hard time with repair because it is so hard to "improve personal mental/behavioral/psychological issues, which is the major problem underlying BPD-relationships."

- Sidenote. I've mentioned this in other posts but over +10 years and maybe 4 different individual therapist, none picked up on BPD even though I spent so much time describing the cycles and the dysregulation (never knew the term). Even my uBPDw's individual therapist never picked up on this. My current T picked up on it like lighting in the second session. She has been amazing for my personal development.

- Lastly, "likely throw a fit and refuse to keep going back." All past years of couples therapy ended right when the T shifted the focus from my challenges/vulnerabilities to uBPDw. Like clock work.

LivedLearned,

You bring up an interesting topic: high functioning.

- I might not be using the term correctly but based on my use and your note my uBPDw is very high functioning:

A. uBPDw is highly successful professionally, top of her career. No issues with drugs, drinking, harm, tattoos, impulse (all the stuff you first read on the web).

In the community (though we rarely socialize or engaged outside of home) presents completely put together, charming, engaging, thoughtful, extremely polite with extended family and people outside the immediate family.

Most people would be surprised at the language and actions she pulls off inside the household. It took a long thoughtful process to education and reveal this to some of my closest family members. Splitting, silent treatments... all of the petulant stuff. They just could not believe it.

B. Bill Eddy severity would be *not cooperative, not dangerous.

- As for the sessions, my goal is not to JADE but to listen, repeat, acknowledge and then state "My experience is different..."

The good boundaries will be tough, something I've mentioned time and again on the threads that is a priority for me.

"So maybe what happened in that session is that she told you how she felt (detached from your reality but not hers), and you naturally defended yourself (JADE), and the counselor didn't catch the dynamic. Your wife would then feel unsupported and maybe unsafe: "Here's yet another example how no one supports me."

Interesting... you bring up validation. All the advice I'm getting and reading about helping my children in this situation focus on validation. And like a uBPDw, I need to think of her emotional state similar to a child. I don't say this flippantly. It is clarity.







Logged
Sluggo
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced 4 yrs/ separated 6 / Married 18 yrs
Posts: 599



« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2022, 05:35:53 AM »

All the above descriptions you gave in your opening comments resonated. 

We went to 4 different couple therapist.  On each we would get about 4 months in and then they would say nothing we can do to improve. 

The last one we were meeting 6 hours a week.  About 5 months in it had been all about how I could improve which I was open and doing.  Then one appointment therapist asked exbpdw --Sluggo has done a lot of work--- what is your part in this--. Within 5 mins she dysrrguated for 1st time in front of therapist, and therapist was scared.  She asked exwife to leave.  Next 3 sessions after that, she got kicked out each time.  Then ex wife said she did not want to go back. 

The notes from therapy were helpful to me in courts and custody evaluation. 

What was good in therapy was that we were asked to video record our 'discussions or arguments at home'.  That helped so much as it eliminated the He said and she said...  It also help me to see the utter disbelief in therapist on what she saw... Which I had normalized.  She called out abuse and told exbpdw that anyone would feel like a loser listening to that.  I did feel like a loser then...  I can only imagine the damage I allowed my kids to experience and witness.  Still a lot of damage even 6 years post divorce on kids. 

Sluggo
Logged
ForeverDad
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: separated 2005 then divorced
Posts: 18475


You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2022, 11:29:32 AM »

- Sidenote. I've mentioned this in other posts but over +10 years and maybe 4 different individual therapist, none picked up on BPD even though I spent so much time describing the cycles and the dysregulation (never knew the term). Even my uBPDw's individual therapist never picked up on this. My current T picked up on it like lighting in the second session. She has been amazing for my personal development.

I too experienced that on my first attempt at family counseling.  I made sure I found a degreed psychologist.  And female too.  My ex refused spectacularly so it became my personal counseling.  After 3 sessions I quit.  Though I sought a solution to ex's behaviors, the T kept asking about FOO (family of origin).  Not once did I get a suggestion about what to do with ex's behaviors.

And even since then, through 8 years in court for divorce and continuing custody issues, I never had a professional venture to suggest I might have been dealing with a PD.  At least in my area it's true that the professionals typically studiously avoid venturing into PD territory, well, except for the Depp & Heard cases.

If it does implode into divorce, then as the collective wisdom suggests, stick to documented incidents and behavior patterns, if courts don't try to fix them, neither can we.
Logged

Couscous
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Sibling
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 1072


« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2022, 10:00:33 PM »

I’m wondering if finding a therapist who specializes in high-conflict marriages could be worthwhile. This way you do not have to say a word about the suspected BPD. When we attempted family therapy with my siblings and the first session went sideways she told us that she realized that she needed to have a one-on-one session with each of us in the same manner as she when she’s working with a high-conflict couple. 
Logged
Couscous
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Sibling
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 1072


« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2022, 10:39:57 PM »

ForeverDad,

There was a actually good reason for your family therapist to inquire about your FOO. He/she was looking for things like enmeshment and patterns of overfunctioning/underfunctioning, dysfunctional communication styles, push-pull dynamics etc., that may have been contributing to the problems in your marriage. 

Incidentally, my brother was the one who first figured out that Cluster B PDs run in our family after his girlfriend was diagnosed with BPD.
Logged
ForeverDad
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: separated 2005 then divorced
Posts: 18475


You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2022, 11:46:37 PM »

There was a actually good reason for your family therapist to inquire about your FOO. He/she was looking for things like enmeshment and patterns of overfunctioning/underfunctioning, dysfunctional communication styles, push-pull dynamics etc., that may have been contributing to the problems in your marriage.

That I do understand.  My grumbling is that in 3 one hour sessions she made no suggestions or strategies how to deal with spouse's extreme behaviors.  None.  Nothing.  I even said I was stopping because nothing was helping me.  I just didn't think it could take so long to determine a case file for my background, with not a word related to dealing with my spouse.  I did find this site a few months later where I lurked at first and then registered.
Logged

Couscous
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Sibling
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 1072


« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2022, 12:30:36 AM »

That I do understand.  My grumbling is that in 3 one hour sessions she made no suggestions or strategies how to deal with spouse's extreme behaviors.  None.  Nothing.  I even said I was stopping because nothing was helping me.  I just didn't think it could take so long to determine a case file for my background, with not a word related to dealing with my spouse.  I did find this site a few months later where I lurked at first and then registered.

Oh, I totally hear you. I’m glad you quit after 3 sessions. It took me a good 6 sessions to fire my T after he flatly refused to label the behavior of my family as abusive and told me that I really didn’t need to be concerned about my 6ft 4, well-built brother’s threat in an email to beat me up. He completely dismissed what another T I interviewed prior to him told me that what I was experiencing qualified as domestic violence. It really seems like the majority of therapists out there are apologists for abuse. It’s quite outrageous. 
Logged
ForeverDad
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: separated 2005 then divorced
Posts: 18475


You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2022, 01:32:54 PM »

It really seems like the majority of therapists out there are apologists for abuse.

Isn't it interesting how apologist definition has changed since olden times.  Centuries ago many deep thinkers were described as "apologists".  Today it gives the sense to include 'excuses' or 'minimizing'.

apologist (n.) — one who speaks or writes in defense of something," especially "a defender of Christianity"
Logged

Couscous
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Sibling
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 1072


« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2022, 06:27:30 PM »

apologist (n.) — one who speaks or writes in defense of something," especially "a defender of Christianity"

Well, if you want to quibble, I did use it in the correct sense.  Smiling (click to insert in post) He actually defended them and essentially his message was that I invited their abusive behavior by standing up for myself, and in effect, “I made them do it”, which is the refrain of abusers the world over. He was only willing to concede that they were being excessively vicious, but otherwise their attack was justified.  

But to your point, I think that “codependent agent” is probably a better term than apologist.
Logged
LifewithEase
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 129


« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2022, 08:37:42 AM »

Update:

Our first T session actually went well. Generally does, no? Everyone on their best behavior. But in seriousness, it felt like a good dynamic. My wife was open, listening, said some telling things that confirms she is scared inside, lost as to how to deal with this all. T did a lot of validation of wife's anger, frustration and sadness. It was wonderful to see my wife open about her feelings.

Of course harsh words were said by uBPDw "my whole family and friends think he is a joke." The therapist taken back while observing me in real time, trying to understand my reaction to these harsh comments. It gave me an opportunity to share that I don't have to defend myself and react to her daily badgering and dismissiveness (again trying to paint a BPD picture) and that these types of comments are not new.

We left in a peaceful, communicative space. My wife wants to go back.

But no surprise, later that afternoon she went on a hardcore dysregulation (sent me an email saying she was going to kick me off her employer's family health-insurance), was cold, silent treatment, and pouty all weekend long. Kids asked why Mom was so down. I validated their feelings.

Couscous - sidenote: this therapist was recommended by my personal therapist and is especially trained in high-conflict relationships

Important Question: How do you respond to the accusation of gaslighting?

During the session, after I started to unpack some of the behavior (but never mentioning  BPD directly), my uBPDw accused me of gaslighting. The context was that I don't take all of her grievances seriously. The T took special note. I did not get defensive but felt very defensive. Kinda a classic pwBPD move, no?

A bit later I very clearly highlighted what I learned from our last couple's therapist - that I better understood my wife's needs and how it impacts her when she doesn't have those needs met. My hope is as the therapist gets to know us she'll understand the one-way street.

Everyone, how do you respond to the accusation of gaslighting from a pwBPD?

Other item: Sluggo, how did you get her to allow in-home video tapping? I'm so alone with it and my kids think it is normal. How does that work? I dream of having the crazy making more known. My uBPDw would never allow for it and I suspect that even if she did, she would be on her best behavior.
Logged
Couscous
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Sibling
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 1072


« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2022, 12:32:10 PM »

She’s not using the term correctly. Not taking her grievances seriously is not gaslighting. I think the word she is looking for is “minimizing” or “dismissing”. Gaslighting is a serious charge and it is important to point this out.

Here is something that you might be able to make use of in your sessions: https://s3.amazonaws.com/kajabi-storefronts-production/sites/88535/downloads/CeR2OK65S8az8jrsVG0J_Safety_in_relationships.pdf
« Last Edit: October 17, 2022, 06:16:54 PM by Couscous » Logged
SaltyDawg
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: BPDw in preliminary remission w/ continual progress
Posts: 1310


« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2022, 09:58:37 PM »

gaslighting... don't get me started...  WATCH OUT for bad T's that will believe the manipulation of your pwBPD and gang up on you, here is my story on that...

For example, I took the majority of a recent couple's T session to explain how my daughter had become the caretaker in our relationship, about 35 minutes and the couple's T agreed with my wife, that a 15 yo girl, is happy and normal doing non-stop chores and school work, providing emotional support for her parents, with no play is totally normal for a teenager [huh?].  The T, then changed the topic to my knee issue, and we talked about that for about 5 minutes.  She then concluded the meeting by telling me that I had talked a majority of the time about my knee and how it is an issue [when she brought it up, to avoid talking about the role of primary caretaker my daughter has taken on] - WTF?

On another occasion many months ago, with the couple's T we were talking about infidelity, as I wanted to address an issue where my uBPDw told me to go f**k other moms, and then accused me of doing the same a few weeks later.  I also wanted to talk about some circumstantial evidence as well [new tools in the garage, that I didn't buy, nor did my uBPDw even know how to use while I was away].  In retrospect, I believe I should not have done that.  However, the T became upset and what I was trying to convey was severely twisted by the T.  At some point during the conversation, my exGF was brought up, and I indicated to my T that I dumped her after I found e-mails [irrefutable evidence that would stand up in court] and told me point blank that my exGF did not cheat on me - WTF.  I had both dudes names, e-mails, photos, and phone numbers along with written statements [in the form of e-mails] from both the exGF and the dudes.  The exGF, in retrospect likely had BPD & NPD in addition to other issues, as I went from the fire of bat$h*t crazy to the frying pan of just BPD crazy - it was an improvement, but not enough of one.  After that session, I figured the T had it in for me -- and she did...

After that 'infidelity' session, I made the mistake in our couple's T of not correcting my uBPDw making incorrect projecting/transferring statements while she was splitting bashing me in a negative light since I figured it was pointless to cross the T since she was focused on a narrative that would fit her theory of me.  So the T thought I was the guy with the problems and wouldn't let me finish my statements by rudely interrupting, take my statements out of context, and wound up gaslighting me on multiple occasions.  If I were to believe my wife on the bashing BS things she said about me while splitting, in the form of gaslighting, I wouldn't like me either.  So, the T is now bashing me too in the form of gaslighting - technically called 'countertransference'.  Before the T ghosted us, the T actually became worse than my wife, with regards to gaslighting, for the last three sessions before the T ghosted us by giving my wife's chosen timeslot, that she has had for the past few years, away to other patients after my wife demonstrated, and my wife verified severe conventional BPD behavior.  I am glad she ghosted us, as the T was actually becoming more crazy that my wife in that aspect.

While the couple's T was using DBT, she was geared towards eating disorders, since our daughter is a recovered AN -- and not BPD.  I was also steering the more recent sessions to highlight BPD symptoms/traits and the effects on family members, since the T refused to address BPD directly when I asked her to, I suspect that the T sensed this, and was bound and determined to manipulate the situation so my uBPDw would not find out.  My uBPDw then did some more projected violence, and admitted to it, one of the more severe if not the most severe indicator of having BPD, so BPD was now undeniable. 

I am glad that you got a couple's T for 'high conflict'.  I sent out an e-mail to one that my uBPDw recommended through her individual T last week.  I am still awaiting an answer new couple's T that my wife chose after I communicated my primary concerns.  I am having my uBPDw choose the counselor [so she can't blame me when it fails], my only requirement is for a T that specializes in 'high conflict' to which my wife too offense to, and not disordered eating which is what she initially chose 3 years ago.
Logged
SaltyDawg
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: BPDw in preliminary remission w/ continual progress
Posts: 1310


« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2022, 11:06:19 PM »

with regards to 'video taping'...

My pwBPD has taunted me to record her doing these things when she splits and/or rages as she is projecting on me that I am doing the bad $hi*, so guess what I am doing... [duh]

I was able to record at least two more of these 'tauntings' so it will stand-up in a court of law as 'permission to record'.  Depending on your state you may have to have the permission of all parties to record something - these come under the purview of wire tapping laws - for US laws checkout https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/RECORDING-CONVERSATIONS-CHART.pdf   I live in an 'all party state', so if you accidentally record anyone whom you don't have permission from (other then your minor children), delete it [unless it contains a reportable crime] and then you can use the 'public safety' exemption.  Don't use it in a bathroom, or record nudity of any kind [unless you are being physically abused/raped], I put the camera face down, so it records audio only with a time/date stamp when in the bedroom.  If you live outside of the US, check with your local laws as they vary from location to location.

Since everyone carries a cell phone, that is my recording device of choice without raising any suspicions.

Guess what, I have figured out a covert way to do just that, with a date/time stamp embedded in the video recording with audio that will hold up in a court - I have homeland security training, so I have a pretty good idea of what is required for the recording.

This solution is for android phones only, and requires some technical skills.  It used to be on Google Play until a few months ago, however, it is a very old program and is a free program, and is no longer listed on Google Play as it is outdated.  Very small at 1.4 MB, works on Android 4.3 or newer (anything in the past decade)
Here is a link for it:  https://m.apkpure.com/rtsp-camera-server/com.miv.rtspcamera  I use version 1.10.

Side load the APK file that you download and configure it in the following way:
Options > Video > Overlay Info > Time stamp > On [all other settings in 'overlay' off or blank] - this will record the phone's network time and date on the cell tower, this is accurate to the fraction of a second.
Options > Video > Capture Method > Data Buffer (slow) - is more reliable for newer phones, you may have to experiment here, it has a video artifact, but it is still usable.
Options > Video > Resolution > 720x540 (4:3) - this will capture at a decent resolution for your wide angle camera to get the most video information on the frame, even though this is a non-standard resolution (unless you live in the UK).  I chose this one for the 4:3 aspect ratio, along with the space saving characteristics of the resolution.  All you have to do is make sure that video the person [who is breaking the law] is to be identifiable, you don't need HD quality, SD will do.
Options > Video > Quality > Low (use this to save space on your device as it uses a lower bitrate)
Options > Audio > Enable Microphone > on
Options > Audio > Sampling Rate > 22050 - half of CD quality, excellent for audio recording, but half of the storage
Effects > Back Camera > Stabilization > on
RTSP Setup > Enable recording > on

Warning:  If you don't manage the resulting video files, it will fill up your phone very fast. - this program will record a time/date stamped video file with audio recording with a new file generated every ten minutes - size of each file is 69 MB.  If there is no drama, delete the files without drama.  If there is drama, rename those files when you are alone [or when you go to the bathroom] with the type of transgressions [e.g. physical battery for example, emotional abuse, false threats, etc. etc.], backup your files to a jump drive and/or a cloud drive on a daily basis.  I use https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lonelycatgames.Xplore&hl=en_US&gl=US as my file manager, use this one unless you prefer another one -- this will allow for LAN backup.
Caution:  This app will chew through your battery very fast, leave your phone on a charger unless you need to move it about
Caution:  Manually allow this app to not be subjected to aggressive battery management [varies with android versions]
Caution:  Camera app will stop this app temporarily, if you need to take a photograph, or show that your camera is not in use, when in fact it is.  It will resume, provided that you use the camera app for less than a few minutes.
Caution:  Flashlight apps will not work while this app is running in the background (a good way to check if it is active).
Caution:  This app will also broadcast a video signal on your wireless LAN, if your pwBPD is an IT person, make sure they don't scan the network for it, as it was designed to be a camera app to be used in conjunction with broadcasting and it is active.

Tip:  use the wide angle lens if you have one, you can cycle through the cameras on your device by tapping "Switch"
Tip:  this app will work in the background, with the phone screen turned off.
Tip:  disable the notification in the tray area by long-tapping and changing the settings appropriately - unless you specifically look for the app it will not show any indication.
Tip:  do not change the microphone sensitivity as it will blow out the audio it set too high
Tip:  use VLC media player to review the resulting video files, if your phone doesn't have a default app
Tip:  the video files are on the root folder of your device under the folder of "RTSPRecords" and not DCIM - standard location for your camera files.
Tip:  when charging the phone, position it in a way that the camera will see the action; however, don't make it obvious.
Tip:  once you have this installed, practice it for a day, if you can, to see what it does, and act accordingly.

Any questions, please ask, on this thread.
Logged
BigOof
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Never-ending divorce
Posts: 376



« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2022, 08:53:18 AM »

SaltyDawg, I'm glad to see somebody else who employs advanced technology to deal with their rampaging blamer. In my experience, lawyers are much cheaper and more effective armed with a video of their behavior rather than a testimonial account of it.

I go as far as stripping out the audio recordings (from the video) and then using Amazon Speech to Text to convert the terabytes of videos into text files I can search through. It enables me to precisely reconstruct events over months of conversations. This is the only defense I have against gaslighting.
Logged
SaltyDawg
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: BPDw in preliminary remission w/ continual progress
Posts: 1310


« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2022, 12:02:54 PM »

BigOof,

I am not yet to the lawyer part of things, and hopefully I/we can avoid it --  as I am doing the unthinkable, a BPD intervention [>99% failure rate from the books, but I am thinking outside of the box so that she may become enlightened -- I am desperate, so I am willing to try it] to make my uBPDw self-aware of her BPD -- there is significant progress; however, it is still too early to tell if I am successful -- as this is being done without successful precedent [which my wife pointed out to me from her research on the topic].  I am employing the 7-"P's" for right now.  Proper Prior Planning Prevents Pi$$ Poor Performance, a college instructor gave me that phrase, it is the only thing I clearly remember from that class Way to go! (click to insert in post)  I suspect that she now recognizes some of the negative behaviors of BPD, and has effectively stopped the most severe ones [for now , no more violence, no more rages].  However, on the flip side of the coin, she is also stone cold walling me by giving me the cold shoulder treatment, and the relationship kind of feels completely dead -- but is somehow things seem more normal -- it's an eerie feeling.  I am hoping it is not the calm before the storm, but to me, this is progress.

I am a firm believer in what CousCous said on a different topic:
If they can control themselves in public, then they have the capacity to do so in private too, and the only reason they do not is because they don't have to. It's really as simple as that.

This is what I am forcing her to do with new boundaries -- and she hates every one of them.  She still is splitting [calmly, and that is taking every ounce of her energy to do] -- and I am recording these splits with false accusations; however, the rages have stopped  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) [for now] as I have brought light to them by highlighting this behavior with the ex-couple's T, her individual T, my individual T, my children's reactions to her, my reactions to her rages, she has slowly come to her own self-awareness of her bat$h** Crazy responses to anger are not sane.  Not sure, if she has bought into my BPD diagnosis yet, but I made a very convincing argument based solely on the issues that she was aware of -- most importantly, she is researching BPD.   Way to go! (click to insert in post)  She is incredibly intelligent [straight-A valedictorian intelligent] with a strong moral compass.  I am hoping that this combination, will make her self-aware [enough] so she can do the 'right thing' which I have seen her do countless number of times with others, but not herself.  Time will tell, I have hope as there has been some progress.

You said:
I go as far as stripping out the audio recordings (from the video) and then using Amazon Speech to Text to convert the terabytes of videos into text files I can search through. It enables me to precisely reconstruct events over months of conversations.

I am interested in your procedure for doing that.  Could you be so kind as to enlighten me?  Just in case I need it in the future?  Right now, she is attempting to use logic, to hold on to as much 'control' [of the crazy] that she can.  Thanks for your idea, and I look forward to hearing from you.
Logged
RisingAboveAll

*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Newly broken up
Posts: 18



« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2022, 12:16:52 PM »

“During the sessions she constantly accused me of not appreciating her and not being there for her. I had concrete examples of showing appreciation and my wife just looked dumb founded like she didn’t know what to say many times.”

I resonate with this. My exBPDgf constantly Said that I did nothing to support her and never appreciated her. So much so that I prepared a list in my own mind of the things I had done specifically to support her, for her well-being, and ways I had appreciated her, so I could remind her. But she wouldn’t integrate those things into her picture. She literally could not remember them. Even really concrete stuff — in the last week I edited your resume when you asked me to, I wrote your cover letter, I made you dinner, I sent you flowers, I called you when you were sad—these things didn’t matter. Only things that caused her negative emotions were “real.”

Logged
BigOof
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Never-ending divorce
Posts: 376



« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2022, 01:13:44 PM »

BigOof,

You said:
I am interested in your procedure for doing that [transcribing].  Could you be so kind as to enlighten me?  Just in case I need it in the future?

1. Use ffmpeg to strip out the audio from the video file
2. Upload the audio file to AWS S3 using the Python boto library
3. Request Speech to Text transcription using the boto library
4. Download the text files
5. Delete the audio and text files on S3
6. Search locally through the files for key-words

Logged
SaltyDawg
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: BPDw in preliminary remission w/ continual progress
Posts: 1310


« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2022, 07:35:39 PM »

RAA,

   Thank you for joining the conversation.  I too can relate to being accused of not being there for her, while she didn't use the words 'not appreciate' but that was the gist of it by saying 'you don't do anything for me'.  My uBPDw will accuse me of doing nothing for her, I would list a handful of things (forgetting most, so I do need to make a detailed running list so the new T can see - as that was a sticking point for the old one - yes, I can learn from my mistakes  Bullet: completed (click to insert in post)).  It used to be 24/7 dealing with her drama [most consuming] and the balance would go to household projects on her honey-do list, taking care of the children, now it is 24/2 (on weekends), and 21/5 on week-days [when the children are at school].  I am taking an average of 3 hours a day for myself for self-care, more when there is drama.  If you don't do 'self-care' please do it, it will make a world of difference, it did for me.

   I have good news, my wife and I will be starting a new couple's T in a week's time.  The one my wife recommended by her individual T has tentatively agreed to dealing with a 'high conflict' relationship:)  However, she has not answered any of my questions Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)  I am hopeful, as it is a new start.
Logged
Sluggo
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced 4 yrs/ separated 6 / Married 18 yrs
Posts: 599



« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2022, 07:08:24 AM »

Excerpt
Sluggo, how did you get her to allow in-home video tapping? I'm so alone with it and my kids think it is normal. How does that work? I dream of having the crazy making more known. My uBPDw would never allow for it and I suspect that even if she did, she would be on her best behavior.

It was suggested by the therapist.  We had a structured 'script' on how to have meaningful and hard conversations.    Where if stuck to it, we would each have opportunity to say a compliment of other, identify what was bothering, reflect back what was heard, offer forgiveness and repair. 

So we would turn on the video when we would start one of these designed conversations.. with the intention to get better at them and bring them in for therapist to review with us. 

Sluggo
Logged
Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2024?

Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2023 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
AskingWhy
At Bay
Cat Familiar
CoherentMoose
drained1996
EZEarache
Flora and Fauna
ForeverDad
Gemsforeyes
Goldcrest
Harri
healthfreedom4s
hope2727
khibomsis
Lemon Squeezy
Memorial Donation (4)
Methos
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
P.F.Change
Penumbra66
Red22
Rev
SamwizeGamgee
Skip
Swimmy55
Tartan Pants
Turkish
whirlpoollife



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!