Vacation - do I go?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

We have a vacation planned for next week, leaving tomorrow, to visit Ws family. 

As you can expect. W is in a grouchy, abusive, and anxious mood.  She chose to have ketamine infusions the two days prior to departure.  She chose to switch the kids' school the week prior to departure.  Of course, she is projecting all onto me, claiming I am I am ignoring her needs.  Reality is, she has been downright nasty and bossy, and I need to walk away to take care of myself and my needs. 

W said to me yesterday and today that I could cancel my ticket and she would take the kids alone.  That sounds tempting.  I would be away from her grouchiness for a week, plus have heaps of time to take care of myself and a few things from my to-do list.  I would have time to go for a hike, a few long bike rides, organize my workshop, and get a few backlogged projects done.  I am sure I would thoroughly enjoy myself and relax. 

The alternative is to continue to go on the trip.  My main and only motivation at this point is to be there for the kids, as a stable presence amongst W's chaos.  I get the sense they do not like being with her alone.  S5 cries when I leave, they complain that she is always on her phone, and seem to avoid talking to her, answering her, or asking her for things.  They bypass her and bring their issues to me.  And is is not (as W claims) that "I am too easy on them".  They come to me because I am calm and patient.  They have told me so. 

I suppose there is a secondary motivation to go on the trip in that some parts would be fun and relaxing.  But staying at home would be more relaxing.  The only thing I would be missing is having fun experiences with the kids.

So do I take the offer to stay home and relax, and let her live in her own self-created stress, or do I go to help shield the kids from that stress?

[maxsterling]

We have a vacation planned for next week, leaving tomorrow, to visit Ws family. 

As you can expect. W is in a grouchy, abusive, and anxious mood.  She chose to have ketamine infusions the two days prior to departure.  She chose to switch the kids' school the week prior to departure.  Of course, she is projecting all onto me, claiming I am I am ignoring her needs.  Reality is, she has been downright nasty and bossy, and I need to walk away to take care of myself and my needs. 

W said to me yesterday and today that I could cancel my ticket and she would take the kids alone.  That sounds tempting.  I would be away from her grouchiness for a week, plus have heaps of time to take care of myself and a few things from my to-do list.  I would have time to go for a hike, a few long bike rides, organize my workshop, and get a few backlogged projects done.  I am sure I would thoroughly enjoy myself and relax. 

The alternative is to continue to go on the trip.  My main and only motivation at this point is to be there for the kids, as a stable presence amongst W's chaos.  I get the sense they do not like being with her alone.  S5 cries when I leave, they complain that she is always on her phone, and seem to avoid talking to her, answering her, or asking her for things.  They bypass her and bring their issues to me.  And is is not (as W claims) that "I am too easy on them".  They come to me because I am calm and patient.  They have told me so. 

I suppose there is a secondary motivation to go on the trip in that some parts would be fun and relaxing.  But staying at home would be more relaxing.  The only thing I would be missing is having fun experiences with the kids.

So do I take the offer to stay home and relax, and let her live in her own self-created stress, or do I go to help shield the kids from that stress?

[BigOof]

It's a trap. Whatever choice you make, it'll be wrong.

At least you might get a few relaxing days for taking the wrong choice to stay home.

[maxsterling]

It's a trap. Whatever choice you make, it'll be wrong.

At least you might get a few relaxing days for taking the wrong choice to stay home.

Agreed.  But is it selfish of me to stay home if the kids need me?  Her leaving the kids is not an option.  If I felt the kids would be okay and have a good time without me, I'd stay home in a heartbeat.  But as mentioned in my OP, there are a lot of indicators lately that the kids want/need me around more even if they don't say it.  S5 sometimes will have a tantrum if W picks him up from school.  Sure there will be other friends/family around on vacation, but the kids (especially S5) seem like they are in a vulnerable place now and would feel abandoned by me if I don't go.

[Notwendy]

Does her family help with the kids? Could they be a deterrent to her behavior?

[maxsterling]

Does her family help with the kids? Could they be a deterrent to her behavior?

When we did the same trip back in March, I wound up doing >90% of the parenting responsibilities.  We will be staying with a couple in their 70s whom W has not seen in person in more than 10 years.  Her aunt and uncle are 80, and her aunt has Parkinson's.  Her cousins do little to help with the kids.  She has one friend that seems to like the kids and the kids like him.   He was basically the only break I got all week. 

W's behavior towards me and the kids has been noticed by her family as W can't always keep it contained.  Last time her cousin gave her a "get over it" type of tough love speech when W was acting irrationally.  W initially responded okay to that, but later (and still) W will bring it up and remark how wrong her cousin was. 

I don't expect Ws behavior to be any different even if her family is around. 

[Notwendy]

Well my usual response is to protect the kids first but also by coming along you are enabling her too.

I am starting to reexamine this "it's for the kids" in my own experiences and also now see it as Dad being co-dependent and enabling BPD mother, keeping her issues secret to protect her feelings.
Your hiding the letter from the school to not upset your wife protects her feelings.

You going along with the trip will be supporting your wife. The kids too but this also becomes a logical reason for your enabling.

Can she handle this at all? When we enable someone, we stop them from managing themselves if it were possible. If you stay home, your wife might have the opportunity to rise to the occasion and manage if she were able to do that. If she's truly a danger to the kids and can not be left unsupervised with them, then you have to go, but also why subject them to her behavior at all?


 

[maxsterling]

Can she handle this at all? When we enable someone, we stop them from managing themselves if it were possible. If you stay home, your wife might have the opportunity to rise to the occasion and manage if she were able to do that. If she's truly a danger to the kids and can not be left unsupervised with them, then you have to go, but also why subject them to her behavior at all?

This was a former thought process of mine.  I'd spend time in 12-step meetings hearing people talk about enabling and not doing for others what they can do for themselves.  It took me a while to realize that the last part is important - is she capable of doing things for herself? 

My conclusion is "no".  She will pay a babysitter to come over while she takes a nap, or to assist her in bringing the kids to a playground.  If she truly felt she was capable of watching the kids for any length of time by herself, she would not be paying someone $15 per hour 3 days per week.  Other times for whatever reason I might not come home until 7:30, and she will tell me that the kids haven't eaten dinner and have just had snacks.  If I leave stuff for her to do, it simply doesn't get done.  If I look back at her past - on the surface she seems like an independent person, but digging deeper I learned that she has done very little on her own, and when she has had to she either winds up in a hospital after a few weeks, or winds up leaning (heavily) on someone else. 

So for me "not enabling" is more about freeing myself up and let other people's problems be their problems, with no expectation that they will learn to take care of themselves.  Was easier to do do before kids.   Now I can't leave things for her to figure out if I am not confident that the kids will be emotionally or physically taken care of. 

[livednlearned]

How does she respond to her ketamine treatments?

Has she ever traveled with the kids on her own before?

[ForeverDad]

MS, you've been here for 9 years.  Evidently you've decided to remain in the marriage, even if only for the kids.  As in "staying for the kids".  That is your choice.  That's what we do, not just continuing support but also education on skills, tools and strategies.

On the flip side, there's another perspective.

The book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.

You mentioned there was no option for the kids to stay with you.  That's because in a marriage you both have equal but undefined parenting rights.  If you were divorced the kids would get court ordered time with you and without their mother for at least part of their youth.  If they're older and into their teens they may even get some input as to which parent they live with most of the time.

But that's only if court has the ability to set the boundaries... which she won't allow you to set while in the marriage.

Of course this post doesn't address the immediate situation.  Sorry.  There are pros and cons to either choice.  I'm leaning toward supporting and protecting the kids.

[Notwendy]

Growing up, I didn't understand why we had to have babysitters so much. This was the era where women didn't work outside the home and so it was a rare thing for families to have sitters to the extent that we had. My friends had mommies who took care of them. I wanted a mommy like that too.

Looking back now, I am grateful that we had sitters. Someone took care of us. Someone who was consistent and caring with us. BPD mother isn't competent to take care of a child. I would not leave my own kids alone with her. If your wife is OK with having sitters it's likely the best thing for the kids.

I think you have your answer about the trip. If your wife needs assistance at the playground there's no way she can manage an airport. The kids are not safe in such a situation.  I can't even imagine my mother in an airport with young kids. The idea is unthinkable.

I think you also have your answer for the next 13 years ( until they turn 18). For their own protection, you would need to make decisions as if you are a single parent.

[formflier]

Has she done a trip like this on her own before? 

I was struck by the enabling comment on a post.  Really has me thinking that letting her experience a trip alone is a wise move.

Yes...there are tons of what if questions. 

My question is...what if you let her solve it?

Best,

Allen

[Notwendy]

FF, I had that thought but my concern is the airport.

These are active 5 year old twins. Navigating luggage, and twins, and security, in an open public place concerns me. Max's wife needs help at a playground. Makes sense if the twins run off in different directions. I think an airport is more of a risk to their safety.

One idea is to pay for assistance. "Unaccompanied minor" isn't just for kids. We had this for my BPD mother when she flew somewhere for a family event. She's elderly and one can do this for the elderly but it may also be something to look into for other situations. Airport security has made it difficult for a family member to take someone right to boarding and meet them there. I wonder if there's some way to do this with a medical note about the wife being on medication or something like that, and if not, pay for the assistance.

If someone were to assist getting them on the plane and meet them right when they get off, this might be a consideration. But Max's wife, alone with the kids in an airport- that could be unsafe.

[formflier]

Certainly that is a possibility.   I would encourage allowing the pwBPD to figure all of that out as much as possible.


Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

We have a vacation planned for next week, leaving tomorrow, to visit Ws family. 

maxsterling, it sounds like you went? Hope things are going ok.

[PeteWitsend]

Growing up, I didn't understand why we had to have babysitters so much. This was the era where women didn't work outside the home and so it was a rare thing for families to have sitters to the extent that we had. My friends had mommies who took care of them. I wanted a mommy like that too.

Looking back now, I am grateful that we had sitters. Someone took care of us. Someone who was consistent and caring with us. BPD mother isn't competent to take care of a child. I would not leave my own kids alone with her. If your wife is OK with having sitters it's likely the best thing for the kids.

I think you have your answer about the trip. If your wife needs assistance at the playground there's no way she can manage an airport. The kids are not safe in such a situation.  I can't even imagine my mother in an airport with young kids. The idea is unthinkable.

I think you also have your answer for the next 13 years ( until they turn 18). For their own protection, you would need to make decisions as if you are a single parent.

I suppose in some cases, a pwBPD is just not capable of taking care of their kids (or handling ANY responsibility really), but in others, they simply don't want to, and will just focus on their own needs.  

I guess it kinda becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for them: they'd rather sit on their phones and get that dopamine boost from likes on facebook, or from playing simple-mind games like candy crush than they would actually learning about their kids' needs and taking care of them... so they do such a lousy job that the Non-disordered parent feels like they have to shoulder more of the burden.  

In my own experience, I noticed BPDxw was very conflicted about this though... like she'd shirk childcare obligations and demand help from me, but then she either felt guilty about it, or paranoid that I was getting closer to our daughter ( or both?), and would start to lash out at me in strange ways or just pick fights, instead of thanking me for helping, or giving her a break on the weekends.  

[Notwendy]

I was a child before cell phones and youtube and social media. Every weekend Dad would take us out himself- to the park, the movies, the zoo. BPD mother stayed home and we had no idea why.

On one hand, the less one does, the less they get competent at it so it could be a self fulfilling prophecy but you don't put the kids at risk so they can learn. I do think there's shame and sadness on their part as I think they know they aren't doing what other mother's do. Sadly, with  stigma on mental illness, it's not looked at like other situations. Maybe someone with a physical disability or intellectual disability would need assistance as well, but people are more understanding.

It's interesting as my BPD mother has "aged" into the "normal appearance" of her competency. Elderly people need assistance with daily tasks and BPD mother receives this as it's elder care. However, her PD creates difficulty in her relationships with her helpers as it has with her other relationships.

I don't think she's ever travelled by plane on her own. She did a few years ago for a family event where several family members were flying by plane from different places. She went "accompanied" - had someone from the airline assist her to the point of being on the plane and then meet her on arrival. We had timed her flight to be a bit after another family member would fly in an meet her as she got off the plane.

Well a few hours before she was scheduled to arrive,  I get a call from her "I am at the airport"- She had decided, on her own, without telling anyone, to take an earlier flight, and I told her that the relative going to meet her had not landed yet. So she didn't follow instructions. This left her wandering around the airport on her own and we were concerned she'd do something like take the wrong bus or get lost somewhere in the terminal.

There's no way I'd assume she could be responsible for traveling with children. Fortunately nobody put her in that situation.

[PeteWitsend]

That's interesting.  I know we refer to "high functioning" and "low functioning" BPD, but I never thought of pwBPD having such low function they couldn't also take care of basic tasks.

Like... my understanding was that pwBPD were all at least around average intelligence, and so could at least perform basic tasks like childcare or travel (even if they might not do them well).

I thought their issues were emotional, not also mental, if that makes sense.  Like a pwBPD might not help their kids excel at school because they are just not willing to devote their time and energy like that, but not also that they are so dysfunctional they couldn't get the kids to school every day and make them lunches.

[kells76]

my understanding was that pwBPD were all at least around average intelligence, and so could at least perform basic tasks like childcare or travel (even if they might not do them well).

I thought their issues were emotional, not also mental, if that makes sense.  Like a pwBPD might not help their kids excel at school because they are just not willing to devote their time and energy like that, but not also that they are so dysfunctional they couldn't get the kids to school every day and make them lunches.

Interesting discussion, and I think it does relate to maxsterling's concern about the trip and Notwendy's experiences with her mom.

One hypothesis (just from my head, not necessarily research or peer-reviewed) is that pwBPD have a broadly normal intelligence distribution -- "not a mental issue" as you say. If you superimposed the IQ scores, for example, of pwBPD over the general populace, the curves might be generally the same. Again, just a hypothesis.

Where the difference comes in is in the degree to which emotional issues impact ability to function.

"Broadly normal" people's emotions don't impinge on their rational thought processes to the degree that they appear (are) dysfunctional and unable to cope with basic life tasks. Though we may have brief experiences that would be similar -- being so angry that we get tunnel vision, being so scared that we freeze and can't remember our address. That is my best guess as to the nature/experience of the emotional impingement on rational thought.

For pwBPD, the intensity and rapid changing of their emotions is so intense that it impinges on not just higher level thought processes ("why are we here, what is the purpose of life") but on daily tasks -- helping with HW, making meals, keeping track of kids at an airport.

So, while two people may have "the same IQ", the pwBPD has highly intense, rapidly changing emotions that effectively "decrease the IQ" to a lower level -- to where it becomes apparent that simple tasks are affected. "On paper" a pwBPD may have an IQ of 100, let's say, but effectively, in practice, they may operate as if they had a lower IQ/ability to navigate life.

Again -- this is only a hypothesis, and I'm using "IQ" as a placeholder/shorthand for "broadly normal rational thought capable of navigating daily life".

So, in maxsterling's case, if this hypothesis applied, his W may "on paper" have many normal rational capabilities. Effectively, in practice, however, her emotional dysregulation impairs her ability to "act her IQ".

Just one way to look at it.

[Notwendy]

Where the difference comes in is in the degree to which emotional issues impact ability to function.

Kells explains it well. My BPD mother has a high IQ. But IQ alone doesn't determine how someone functions emotionally, socially, and in daily tasks.

Emotions can vary a lot, and so that makes the situation confusing- because her moods and function can vary. Motivation to do something makes a difference for everyone. If we really want to do something, we are more likely to do it. We all have tasks we don't want to do sometimes- but we do them because of of other reasons, maybe we want that raise at work, or a good grade.

Somewhere, that connection- choose to do something you don't find enjoyable because you want the results of it later got disconnected with my mother. There's also the self fulfilling issue that PeteWitsend mentioned- we are good at things we do often and not good at things we rarely or never do.

One thing I have noticed about my mother is her tendency to be oppositional.  She is very socially savvy and manipulative and is very good at getting people to do things for her. The other side of this is that the more this is done, the less competent one is and then there's shame about that.

By my teens I was competent at household tasks.  BPD mother would do things like sign up to bring cookies to a school function, then come home and have me bake them, then bring them to school and people assumed she did. This is one of many times she has other people do things for her-  and so her function is assumed. If she goes to a pot luck dinner, someone else will cook a dish,  and she brings it. People think she did it.

So now, emotionally, what often interferes with her doing things is insecurity and shame. Her default is to get others to do it for her - and she can be quite insistent. My father felt sad for her and so his approach was to not make any demands on her because he didn't want to stress her and it's also difficult to get her to do something. If someone is afraid of not being able to do something, the way to avoid shame is to refuse to do it.

Large crowded and open spaces are places that can cause anxiety for some people. Airports, malls, can be difficult. I think she has a lot of anxiety in areas like that. We've travelled with kids on airplanes. A lot can happen- if there's a delay - the kids get cranky and tired. We have all seen tired parents and whiny kids in airports. This would be such an overload for a disordered parent who is already anxious, hungry and tired themselves to manage on their own. I don't think it's wise to put kids in this situation.

[maxsterling]

Update here - I went.  Long story short, I have serious concerns about the safety (including emotional safety) of the kids while with W alone on a trip like this *even if other family and friends are there to meet her*.  If W had said she would go alone and I would have to take care of the kids at home by myself - fine.  But I wasn't about to let her take the kids by herself, and there really was no way of stopping her from trying.  I didn't feel this to be a situation of "letting her figure things out" because that was too risky for the kids.

In the long run, I think this was the correct decision.  W had ZERO ability to handle the most basic stress of the trip without taking considerable Xanax.  ZERO ability to calm down on her own. 

But I dealt with nearly constant dysregulation and considerable abuse.  My saving grace was that the people we were staying with were awesome people who have known W since she was an infant - recognized the situation and were awesome at helping out. 

[formflier]

In the long run, I think this was the correct decision.  W had ZERO ability to handle the most basic stress of the trip without taking considerable Xanax.  ZERO ability to calm down on her own. 

 

This is important information to know.  Good for you that you have seen it with your own eyes.

How is this going to affect your decisions/approach going forward to deal with the danger to your children?

How do you "feel" about the situation after experiencing a trip like this?

Best,

FF

[maxsterling]

FF- hard to say - I'm still winding down and processing.

The kids still need vacation and experiences and to see family.  I can't deny them that just because W is hard to manage. 

Going forward, I think it is about trying to persuade the trips into things more manageable - such as having other family either come with us or meeting us.  If not for the family friends we stayed with - this would have been a huge disaster.  And if W wants to visit her family, I will try to convince her to make the trip herself without the kids, and make arrangements for my parents to stay with me to help with the kids (I don't need the help, but W is convinced I do).

[Notwendy]

Someday the kids will be able to travel on their own. If both you and your wife feel this family you stayed at is a safe situation, and they are willing, sending the kids on their own could be a good thing for them as a respite from the disorder at home.

When we were old enough, my father sent us to stay with his family during school breaks. It was win win- we had respite from the dysfunction and BPD mother's behavior. Dad could work without concern for who would take care of us. BPD mother could do whatever she wanted. There probably was drama between them but they didn't have to worry we'd see it.

You can do this for the kids no matter if you stay married or not.

We loved those visits.

[formflier]

The kids still need vacation and experiences and to see family.  I can't deny them that just because W is hard to manage. 

 

Can you compare your thoughts on the kids need for vacation and experiences with their need to grow up in a calm home?  ("calm home" is the best I can come up with on short notice..basically their need to be free of BPD)

Best,

FF