Option C

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

When my Wife is clearly upset at me, I react either by option a, or option b.

a) I listen and try to give only neutral or constructive responses.
b) I get angry back after a while.

Option a is tiring but I can return to feeling fine sooner. About 3 out of 4 times the situation calms down with not much involvement by me besides listening, she seems to regulate herself if I don't make things worse. 1 out of 4 times I find myself in a situation where she's demanding explanations/actions from me. These are tricky situation when things often escalate either by violence from her and/or angry response from me (option b).

Option b is wild, I lose control of myself and quickly start saying words of truth that I regret later. My body is a wreck (heart beating, unnatural breathing) when she's upset with me, so it feels like a boundary to get angry back, but this leaves me with heightened anxiety for the next 1-2 days.

I guess what we are always talking about here is an option c. I just don't see what that is right now. I can do option a almost to perfection (at amateur level still though) sometimes for weeks, but sooner or later I'll go to option b because I can't stand listening to her bringing up her hurt feelings over the same thing over and over again, and also the occasional physical attack leaves me almost unable to do option a.


I've tried to leave for 30 minutes when she gets violent, but honestly, I don't feel like going outside in the dark/cold.
I've tried to refuse to talk about old romantic interests, but this escalates things. (Maybe I shouldn't actually tell her I'm refusing to talk about it?)



As often is the case her, I got the urge to write here today because of a recent episode. At 1 AM tonight, she aggressively asked me; "Do you even have a conscience?". She commented a lot about how I was not looking at her, not responding naturally a.s.o. In bed she strangled/scratched my neck hard when she didn't get a soothing reaction from me. I responded with a strategically symbolic comment (a non-aggressive natural response); "What are you doing?", but I kept myself to option a and today I feel grateful for that.

[15years]

When my Wife is clearly upset at me, I react either by option a, or option b.

a) I listen and try to give only neutral or constructive responses.
b) I get angry back after a while.

Option a is tiring but I can return to feeling fine sooner. About 3 out of 4 times the situation calms down with not much involvement by me besides listening, she seems to regulate herself if I don't make things worse. 1 out of 4 times I find myself in a situation where she's demanding explanations/actions from me. These are tricky situation when things often escalate either by violence from her and/or angry response from me (option b).

Option b is wild, I lose control of myself and quickly start saying words of truth that I regret later. My body is a wreck (heart beating, unnatural breathing) when she's upset with me, so it feels like a boundary to get angry back, but this leaves me with heightened anxiety for the next 1-2 days.

I guess what we are always talking about here is an option c. I just don't see what that is right now. I can do option a almost to perfection (at amateur level still though) sometimes for weeks, but sooner or later I'll go to option b because I can't stand listening to her bringing up her hurt feelings over the same thing over and over again, and also the occasional physical attack leaves me almost unable to do option a.


I've tried to leave for 30 minutes when she gets violent, but honestly, I don't feel like going outside in the dark/cold.
I've tried to refuse to talk about old romantic interests, but this escalates things. (Maybe I shouldn't actually tell her I'm refusing to talk about it?)



As often is the case her, I got the urge to write here today because of a recent episode. At 1 AM tonight, she aggressively asked me; "Do you even have a conscience?". She commented a lot about how I was not looking at her, not responding naturally a.s.o. In bed she strangled/scratched my neck hard when she didn't get a soothing reaction from me. I responded with a strategically symbolic comment (a non-aggressive natural response); "What are you doing?", but I kept myself to option a and today I feel grateful for that.

[ForeverDad]

Been there, done that.  My family lived nearby (whom she was sensitized to, of course) and so I started to leave when she got really freaky one night.  She jumped on my back and wouldn't get off!

What is about late nights?  She would often exclaim, "We won't go to sleep until we fix this now!"  Of course I always had to get up for work in a few hours.

It didn't stop until we separated - she resisted any counseling - but of course that only changed the details of how the discord expressed itself.

[I Am Redeemed]

It sounds like your nervous system is activated when your wife is upset. You can do option a for a while, but you are still triggered while doing it and eventually, you get triggered enough that you respond with option b.

The tools and ways to respond that we talk about here ideally need to come from a calm, centered place. It's hard to get centered when your nervous system is repeatedly activated.

In your case, your nervous system is responding to an actual threat - the risk for another episode of physical violence.

When physical violence is present in a relationship, the focus really needs to be on how to best keep yourself safe. Choosing between leaving into the dark and cold or staying in a place where you may face physical violence is understandably a hard place to be in.

What are you looking for in an "option c"?

If you are looking for a way to deescalate her behavior to keep yourself safe that doesn't involve exhausting your emotional capacity or setting a boundary of physical distance to protect yourself from violence, that is really tricky. Asserting boundaries against physical violence can be dangerous if you don't have a good safety plan in place.

Often, when physical violence is present in the relationship, it's impossible to protect yourself effectively while remaining in the presence of the violent person.

[15years]

What is about late nights?  She would often exclaim, "We won't go to sleep until we fix this now!"  Of course I always had to get up for work in a few hours.

Thanks for sharing.

It's probably triggering to see their partner preparing for a good night of relaxing sleep when all they feel is that we have hurt them in different ways. The gap between how they are feeling and how their partner is feeling is provoking.
At that state, pwbpd doesn't feel that their partner deserves a good night's sleep.

It sounds like your nervous system is activated when your wife is upset. You can do option a for a while, but you are still triggered while doing it and eventually, you get triggered enough that you respond with option b.

...

In your case, your nervous system is responding to an actual threat - the risk for another episode of physical violence.

...

What are you looking for in an "option c"?

Thanks for your warm response.

Maybe you're right that my nervous system is preparing for what I've learned from experience. But I'm not sure it has all to do with physical violence. I was scared of her before she was violent. I'm not at all as scared of her now as I used to be when she was only angry/hurt and didn't attack me physically. I was mostly scared of guilt/shame. But my body reacts more now in face of emotional dysregulation. My mind is calmer, at least some part of it. That nightmarish feeling is stronger than before though.

So I'm partly less scared mentally but physically more of a wreck. Please someone help me understand that if you have a theory

[Notwendy]

I have participated in 12 step ACA groups to help me process the situation with my BPD mother.

It was a counselor who recommended this to me. This was puzzling as I had thought these groups were mainly for drug/alcohol issues, but I don't have issues with these.

There was talk about "emotional sobriety" and "emotional hangover". It began to make sense when I paid attention to how I feel after an emotional argument/discussion- similar to what has been described as a hangover.

Just like someone can be addicted to drugs/alcohol, someone can be addicted to these high intensity emotional arguments. There's a flood of intense emotions, flight or fight, adrenaline during these- and that's what a drug can do too.

For the person with BPD, I think the "plan B" serves a purpose. It releases uncomfortable emotions. After this happens, they feel better. It's also part of the abuse cycle. Since these exchanges/anger outbursts serve as their coping mechanism, they will seek to repeat them as needed.

I think this is why your wife keeps brining up emotional topics and why they aren't resolved when you apologize, explain, soothe. The goal is plan B- for her. It's her feeling discomfort and this is a way to relieve it so she brings up topics that elicit an emotional response from you.

You are a participant in this exchange as well. Your "drug" is to get relief from the discomfort of her being in distress so you try to fix the situation with soothing her but you get frustrated when she persists because plan A doesn't have the effect she needs from plan B. What happens next is that, she feels better once she's gotten the feelings out. You feel worse after these exchanges.

The goal for you is to "not pick up the (emotional) drink". It's not easy. It is as if you were addicted to alcohol and someone put a drink in front of you. It's also hard because you are living in the same house with her and if you don't participate - she can be persistent and also physically abusive but the goal is to not participate in these exchanges.

Even if you don't feel fear of her now, since this has been a pattern for the two of you, when she starts to bring up this topic, you feel an emotional response- fight or flight. This is when self care is needed.

There is an acronym "HALT" hungry, tired, angry, lonely ( and one can add more emotions to this ). When someone is having these feelings they are more likely to lose their reserve and get into an argument.  Perhaps this is why at bedtime, these things are more likely to happen.

[Manic Miner]

I'm actively monitoring this thread.

Like 15y, I was also searching for Plan C, constantly repeating either a) or b). Doesn't matter how much I have learned, DBT sessions, discussing here, introspection etc. my W could always push the right buttons for me to do b). It's much better than before, but we have separated and I'm not sure whether am I really better dealing with that myself or the cause of drama is reduced by separation?

Anyway, like others have noted, I too have been addicted to b). I noticed it did reduce the stress and accumulated tension when we had fights. If anything, I felt like I finally told W how I really felt, even though that probably fell on deaf ears and wasn't the right way to do it. I don't want drama in my life anymore, esp. not over some petty nonsense.

[15years]

I feel that certain boundaries would only escalate arguments. And I don't know how to assert boundaries when she's not notably hostile, even though her arguments are hostile.

When she brings up my past "love life" in subtle or direct ways, she's not always hostile at first. Setting a boundary of not talking about the subject comes across as harsh. That's where I would need option C. My goal is to make the exchanges shorter and be less exhausting for everyone in the family.

One idea I have:
Say something that's partly soothing to her but keep to that same message until she tires (hopefully). In the case of my romantic past, it would have to be something short and effective that puts down the other girls (or puts down the importance of them) in my wife's eyes, without being too rude. If I would say this one thing, I would be more comfortable to take on the "I'm not saying more-attitude" (or maybe a "I'm not giving these people any more of my time-attitude" would work better with my wife). So maybe just take a sip of the (emotional) drink instead of drinking it (Thanks for the metaphor Notwendy!). Not picking up the drink at all feels like a ticking time bomb.

I've received suggestions here on what to tell her before, but I'd need it to more directly put down the importance these girls have for me. She will never be satisfied with "well-behaved" unemotional responses.

[Notwendy]

Putting the girls down doesn't seem to help solve this.

I wonder how she'd respond to affirmation or even humor ( don't try this if it were dangerous- if she gets abusive).

"You were in love with someone else".

"Yes, I was but I married you"

"you are looking at hot women "yes, they are hot, but I love you"

And if she pushes it. "Yes, when I was 14 I slept with the whole 8th  grade" ( a ridiculous statement but the argument is ridiculous.

"You didn't tell me about your old girlfriends "Ok, I didn't ever tell you about the old lady next door. She was about 83. It was amazing".

Then walk away. At some point, discussing this seriously doesn't seem to help.

[Manic Miner]

Lmao, Notwendy, good ones!

Sadly that didn't help for me, yet I hoped so much it would, as any humor, even darkest one is part of me. I can laugh at about anything and everything as long as it's a good one.

My W asked me recently do I already have someone. She asked me several times since we separated with me saying no, every time. Well, last time I told her - yes! I do! I do have two of them actually. There was a silence on the phone. N & L - our sister cats.

While there was a relief, a mild laugh, this didnt prevent her to ask me the same question just a week later.

But yeah, it did lower the tension. Even though this kind of thing is no issue for my W. I'd be happy if it was, as our fights always had that deep, cosmical problems that seemed unsolvable even to Sagan.

[15years]

I'm thinking if I say one comment that she would love to hear, I can be more comfortable in refusing to talk about it after. I know it's not solving anything, but it's mostly about coping with it myself. She can be persuasive and at the end of these discussions I start doubting myself and start believing this --> "I should respect my woman and take away any doubt from her mind about my feelings for other women".

But it might be too naive of a solution of course.

Any humoristic comment indicating I actually liked those girls in any degree would be escalating her emotions. She has already decided that I didn't like those girls at all, and that is the mystery that makes her bring it up all the time --> "So why did you date them if you didn't like them?"... a twisted chain of thoughts, right?

[ForeverDad]

Unless she is getting and applying meaningful therapy what you say or do can be helpful to some extent but it's like bailing out a leaky boat ... the leaks are too many and the cup is too small to stop it from sinking..

The key factor that matters is ... Is it getting better ... or worse?

Added to that is that even if you have a good response for one issue, won't other issues pop up?  You trying to fix or resolve and her sabotaging by just raising more issues?

[15years]

I wonder if by saving energy by avoiding escalation, I enable her to develop symptoms freely.

Another thing is that I feel that it's not worth it to tell her how I feel because she will not accept anything outside her narrow comfort zone. This makes us grow apart even more and I feel like I'm not doing what i can to save the relationship in the long run. Too much of sharing my feelings however will only lead to conflicts. Again I'm looking for something in between. Choosing battles maybe?

Latest thing is that she expresses how she will never again be intimate with anyone that doesn't meet her standards, meaning me. This however is only a relief to me at this moment.

[Notwendy]

On sharing feelings: Consider that if someone is overwhelmed by their own feelings, they don't have the emotional bandwidth to consider anyone else's. In addition, if someone is in Victim position on the Karpman triangle, someone sharing their feelings feels like more "persecutor". Think about if someone is feeling very hurt, and expecting you to be supportive/help them, and you bring up your feelings- well that sounds invalidating and insensitive. This isn't reality- it's their own perception- but I think it's a reason why bringing up your feelings isn't effective in the way you wish. When we do bring up feelings, we expect it to help solve the situation but this doesn't usually work that way.


On growing apart- one thing that seems to be going on with my BPD mother is that once I stopped being a participant in the drama, the relationship felt more distant to me. I think this is because disordered people have disordered relationship patterns that meet their needs. They also tend to match with a partner who has needs that fit the pattern, such as someone who has strong rescuer needs. While these relationships can be difficult, they can continue when both people are getting needs met, even if the situation is difficult. Even the disordered pattern when you share your feelings is part of it. You share, she feels invalidated/hurt, then there's conflict. The connection is in the conflict too- and afterwards when things are calmer. I wonder if the "feeling distant" is part you being less of a participant in these dynamics and also feeling the distance of your needs not being met when you participate less.

On the "no intimacy". Two big issues in any relationship are intimacy and finances and because they are highly emotional issues, they tend to be difficult ones in dysfunctional relationships. It's an odd balance really-  If being faithful in a marriage is important to both people, then the marriage is where needs for intimacy are met. Yet the spouse should also not be expected to be "available" all the time, any time but neither should they completely cut the other person off of intimacy all together. No intimacy also creates distance. A non disordered person knows better to not do this as it can create harm to the relationship but for someone with BPD, they act on their feelings at the moment.

My best advice for what she says is to see it as her saying something in the moment and not react to it. "no intimacy" might mean one day, one week, who knows. She may forget about it at some point or not. I'd let it go and see what happens before making it an issue.

Your task is to save your own emotional and mental reserves. I don't know if you can prevent escalation, but you don't have to participate in it. I think "choosing your battles" is one way to decide what you need for you. Ironically, her concern or need to discuss your teen age relationships seems to be a bigger issue than the actual relationship was. I wonder what it is that she needs to hear from you about it.

[15years]

Notwendy, good answer...


What I find difficult is when she's quietly angry, how do I go on with my day and do what I feel like doing. I know that sooner or later there will be a discussion which inevitably will lead to a blow up of emotions on her part. However, she might be able to hold it together until after the kids gone to sleep (which I appreciate), so I'm doing a balancing act until then. After that, I just sit down, relax, and let it rain on me. I often get extremely tired when she's talking, and I have a hard time not falling asleep.


What she needs to hear about my teen age relationships is that I passionately regret all those relationships. She feels intense disgust regarding certain kind of people, and she cannot understand why I would have wanted to be involved with anyone of them, in any intimate way. She needs to hear an explanation that sounds both logical and soothing to her. She has put these girls (four of them) in her own two categories of disgusting people:
1. Soulless human beings who lack personality and tries to perform their way to a life worth living.
2. Unambitious parasites who take pleasure in being disgusting and destroying the world.
She needs me to calmly and plainly state this as a fact in my own words. Does that make sense?

[Notwendy]

It's hard to know why she needs to hear this but I think one thing that fuels the situation is your own personal feelings of shame and so this is an emotional trigger point for you. Emotions=connection even if disordered.

Since you want to continue in this relationship and this is an ongoing need of hers ( even if it doesn't make sense to you ) I think the idea of "pick your battles" might be your best plan.

Your first task is to manage your own emotions: get rid of any shame for what you did as a young teen/man. You know these women are not soul less parasites but you will not ever change her mind or how she thinks. If she thought they were Green Martians, then to her, they are, and you are wasting your time and energy trying to convince her otherwise.

I think that what triggers you isn't what she thinks of them but what she thinks of you for being in a relationship with them, you disgusting Green Martian lover. How could you? I won't lower myself to be with someone like you. You have to be able to detach yourself from this distorted thinking- it's less about you than her own disorder which I wonder might involve some kind of OCD pattern where someone thinks they could be contaminated or someone else is, and they compulsively try to "clean" themselves of that?

I am going to go out on a limb and also wonder if this is her own compulsive way of becoming "clean" of her own guilt/shame at something she did- and she projects it on to you and then elevates herself by separating herself from you. Whatever it might be, this is something she's not completely conscious of and it would take a trained therapist to get to that issue with her, and that isn't you and unless she's willing to do some personal work, it won't happen.

So it is what it is- this repeated behavior works for her in some way and she needs to do it. The battle you pick isn't this one. It's abuse, so that is what you disengage from. If giving her what she wants- your regret for having done such a horrible thing- then not reacting to it emotionally is the first step. She needs her back scratched? Well scratch her back. She needs to hear that these are soulless parasitic creatures and you are so regretful for being with them, then well, say "Honey, I agree, these are not the kind of person I want to be with and I regret doing that" ( you can say this honestly as she keeps bringing it up but I think if it wasn't this, it would be something else). It's some emotional need of hers that you can't change. At this point, pick the response that you think will serve her need, avoid violence, and don't take it personally.

[maxsterling]

Sorry to join in the discussion a little late, but if there has been physical violence or threats of physical violence, option C needs to be a safety plan.

For awhile I kept a bag of clothes in my car.
I made sure my phone was always charged and my wallet is with me (I have gone so far as to sleep with them under my pillow or in my hand)
I made sure I had necessities (like shoes) in various places in case I could not get back to my bedroom to get my shoes on.
I knew nearby hotels/places to stay.
I kept a list of places/people to call.

ALL of the above have come in handy. 

The reality is that if she has been that irrational or violent toward you in the past you will have a traumatic response if you are faced with that threat again.  You won't be able to apply option A or any other rational option unless you are coming from a place of safety - and your body will not feel that based upon previous experiences.

I'm getting better at simply walking away sooner.  I don't need to make excuses for that.  But I will admit that sometimes now I walk away before the really serious boundary of violence or strong abuse has been crossed.  I will walk away if she is simply bean rude and mean.

[ForeverDad]

Since you want to continue in this relationship and this is an ongoing need of hers ( even if it doesn't make sense to you ) I think the idea of "pick your battles" might be your best plan.

Your first task is to manage your own emotions: get rid of any shame for what you did as a young teen/man.

Sort of... "I wish I had known you or chosen you back then but we have each other now"?  Yeah, probably not enough during a ragefest.

The battle you pick isn't this one. It's abuse, so that is what you disengage from. If giving her what she wants- your regret for having done such a horrible thing- then not reacting to it emotionally is the first step.

Just be sure that any "regrets" you express aren't recorded or heard by others, or at least don't have untoward legal or parenting consequences.  The last thing you want are misconstrued statements thrown in your face to CPS or custody struggles.

Sorry to join in the discussion a little late, but if there has been physical violence or threats of physical violence, option C needs to be a safety plan.

For awhile I kept a bag of clothes in my car.
I made sure my phone was always charged and my wallet is with me (I have gone so far as to sleep with them under my pillow or in my hand)
I made sure I had necessities (like shoes) in various places in case I could not get back to my bedroom to get my shoes on.
I knew nearby hotels/places to stay.
I kept a list of places/people to call.

I separated and divorced some 15 years ago.  What I did not have then was a phone so I used voice recorders (quietly) for documentation.  Yes, more than one in case the batteries in one had run down.  Even now I have, literally, several charging "bricks" so even if the electric is out, I can charge my phone.  I also have a charging cable in my car.

As everyone has noted, the incidents typically flare up out of the blue and catch us off guard.  It's okay to rehearse ways to calm the emotions.  (Be forewarned that what works one time may not work the next.  If only one approached worked every time.  Alas, no.)

Also, ponder how you will handle these incidents with your children in mind.  Yes, right now we're focusing on you, but her outbursts, demands and discord are not isolated from the kids.  There is no way they aren't impacted to some extent.

[I Am Redeemed]

Your wife's obsession with your previous romances could be coming from a deep insecurity (childhood trauma?) and a fantasy/magical thinking of ideal, perfect love. She may have retroactive jealousy because she can't stand to think that you ever have or ever would be attracted to another female; she may need to believe that she is special because of a deep seated insecurity about her own worth and value. She probably needs you to completely devalue these females to ward off anxiety that you might have some secret remaining attraction to them and that would be catastrophic to her fragile sense of self.

That doesn't excuse the behavior but it may explain why it keeps coming up. I don't think someone with this issue can handle the knowledge that their partner was once attracted to someone else. It goes against the fantasy of fated, magical, aligned with the stars love that gives someone with this kind of insecurity a feeling of specialness that feels necessary for survival.

[SaltyDawg]

I am going to be blunt...

Option C - Don't JADE while she is upset.  Leave her the ____ alone when she is upset.

Say something like "I understand you are upset".  "I know this is important to you, and I would love to talk to you when I am calm, right now I am not calm, and need some space to think".

Use "I" pronouns, avoid "you", "we", "but", etc.

If those don't work, excuse yourself to the toilet [if repeated, you have toilet issues *wink*], or your car, and hang out there until things calm down.

[15years]

Also, ponder how you will handle these incidents with your children in mind.  Yes, right now we're focusing on you, but her outbursts, demands and discord are not isolated from the kids.  There is no way they aren't impacted to some extent.

I contacted and had a meeting with an association that's offering counseling and support groups for loved ones of people with mental health issues. She presented a method that's called "Let’s Talk About Children", which we have now booked the first meeting for.

Anyone heard of it? Here's a short summary:
Let’s Talk About Children is a brief, evidence-based method that trains professionals to have a structured discussion with parents who experience mental illness about parenting and their child’s needs.

It aims to make this conversation a routine part of the alliance between parents and professionals where they can explore the wellbeing and development of children and how their parent’s mental illness is understood by them.

[15years]

The reality is that if she has been that irrational or violent toward you in the past you will have a traumatic response if you are faced with that threat again.  You won't be able to apply option A or any other rational option unless you are coming from a place of safety - and your body will not feel that based upon previous experiences.

Thank you for your understanding of my situation. It's so easy to be overly rational and think that the violence isn't traumatic because I can defend myself and/or exit the situation. It helps to be the stronger one, but violence in itself has some sort of effect that's not only about the pain/physical damage. I don't know how to explain/understand this, anyone else got a good take on this?

[15years]

...You have to be able to detach yourself from this distorted thinking- it's less about you than her own disorder which I wonder might involve some kind of OCD pattern where someone thinks they could be contaminated or someone else is, and they compulsively try to "clean" themselves of that?

Yes, there is a connection to OCD patterns. Hygiene is an obsession along with perfectionism, but she isn't frantic about it. Mild form of paranoia is another issue. She's kind of self-aware about these traits, but in some cases, it defines her thoughts in a way that I don't think she's aware of. Or she reads it as signs of what is right and wrong.

[15years]

Your wife's obsession with your previous romances could be coming from a deep insecurity (childhood trauma?) and a fantasy/magical thinking of ideal, perfect love. She may have retroactive jealousy because she can't stand to think that you ever have or ever would be attracted to another female; she may need to believe that she is special because of a deep seated insecurity about her own worth and value. She probably needs you to completely devalue these females to ward off anxiety that you might have some secret remaining attraction to them and that would be catastrophic to her fragile sense of self.

That doesn't excuse the behavior but it may explain why it keeps coming up. I don't think someone with this issue can handle the knowledge that their partner was once attracted to someone else. It goes against the fantasy of fated, magical, aligned with the stars love that gives someone with this kind of insecurity a feeling of specialness that feels necessary for survival.

Your understanding of this is good. Add to this that she sees herself as someone with high values. She has always told me that she wouldn't be as hurt if the other girls would be the type of persons she could respect. It seems to be the most important aspect aside from the more common form of jealousy. If I have been attracted to people that she finds disgusting - What does that say about her. It's also naturally very easy for me to get infatuated with people. Even if it's not said out loud, the evidence is there, which bothers her on so many levels.

She is constantly trying to create ways of thinking around all these painful hurdles, and when she presents these theories to me - if I arrogantly disagrees, I inevitably become the villain.

[15years]

Option C - Don't JADE while she is upset.  Leave her the ____ alone when she is upset.

Thanks for commenting!

For me this is what I would call Option A (Not JADE), that I can master quite well by now, but not for more than a few weeks.

Say something like "I understand you are upset".  "I know this is important to you, and I would love to talk to you when I am calm, right now I am not calm, and need some space to think".

Use "I" pronouns, avoid "you", "we", "but", etc.

If those don't work, excuse yourself to the toilet [if repeated, you have toilet issues *wink*], or your car, and hang out there until things calm down.

This is the Option C that I have tried with some level of success, but not applied permanently. I have to admit though, I haven't been reading all the tools that's available on this website. Probably could practice on the "I" statements, but I think it would make her mad to hear me trying to talk about me when she's upset

One problem is that I don't want to talk to her about these issues when we're calmer either, it's so disordered that talking about it is pointless and will lead us right back to not being calles. Telling her that we will talk once we're calmer isn't honest or constructive.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Some thoughts as to why you cannot seem to "keep up" option A.

Option A is emotionally exhausting, likely because to do it, you need to actively repress your own feelings during the conversation. The "calm" state of your mind might just be an illusion created by dissociation, because you got really good at shutting down and repressing what you truly feel. There is NO WAY that what she is saying in any of those conversations, especially where you are concerned, wouldn't spark a bit of anger due to your boundaries being crossed. You are human. You are an emotional being, like all of us.

The more you repress, the more you fill up, until there is an explosion : option B.

Maybe option A should include a moment for you to, following a discussion, take the time to connect and process your own emotions. Maybe not in her presence, but truly take the time to feel them and filtering them through self-compassion.

It is easy to assume we are calm because we control ourselves. Been there too. But personnally, I came to realize I was never in control, I was merely repressing myself to not get hurt, as a survival tool. Nothing wrong with that... But it would help to process those feelings at some point for yourself.

[15years]

Riv3rw0lf, that's a good suggestion, some sort of check in after a successful calm response. I do write in my journal so I do this already to some degree.

But it's true that keeping calm comes with a price, being vulnerable is not an option. I kind of take pride in thinking that i can survive any offense, and not take things personally.

Interesting point that dissociation could be involved, I haven't thought about it like that. Feel free to develop that thought

[maxsterling]

It is easy to assume we are calm because we control ourselves. Been there too. But personnally, I came to realize I was never in control, I was merely repressing myself to not get hurt, as a survival tool. Nothing wrong with that... But it would help to process those feelings at some point for yourself.

Really helpful, and I agree 100%.  This is me. 

I can roll with a lot for awhile.  I can remind myself that things she says aren't true.  I can look for whatever truth that she sees in what she says.  I can tell myself that I can find time to process later.  And I do.

This was good for awhile - maybe a few years.  But it is a coping mechanism.  And it was sustainable when I was dealing with things every few weeks.   Now that it is nearly every day - I no longer have the time to process before I am dealing with more.   I am overloaded and I am shutting down.  And as much as I still try to push through, it mostly feels impossible now.  My "processing time" has gone from self-care time to "frantically trying to distract myself and/or get things done knowing that I have limited time".  Long, quiet walks feel nearly impossible now. 

I liken it to the garbage man coming once per week.  You can deal with garbage so long as the can has space.  But once the rate of garbage generation fills the can up before the week is done, you have to frantically figure out what to do with the extra garbage.  You stomp the can down more, save it till next week, find someone else to take it...

[Riv3rW0lf]

Riv3rw0lf, that's a good suggestion, some sort of check in after a successful calm response. I do write in my journal so I do this already to some degree.

But it's true that keeping calm comes with a price, being vulnerable is not an option. I kind of take pride in thinking that i can survive any offense, and not take things personally.

Interesting point that dissociation could be involved, I haven't thought about it like that. Feel free to develop that thought

It's good to write, writing has a way to unlock the feel, and that's what you need to do : feel it.

Looking at what happens to children with a parent with BPD, and thinking about it more, I don't see why the process would be any different for you as her husband.

When threatened, when boundaries are crossed, when we are being abused, our body reacts. It has to. It's survival instinct. It doesn't matter what your intellect thinks, the limbic system is the one in charge. We are, first and foremost, emotional animals.

You have been with your wife for a very long time. She is borderline, and as such she is abusive, it's outside her control and outside of yours. Without therapy, it will keep on going.

Now... To defend yourself, when the abuse starts, what will your body do?

You cannot use a flight response: you live with her and it is not always suitable to exit the house.

You cannot use a fight response: it would escate to physical violence, which is dangerous for both of you.

Two responses are left: fawn and freeze.

We can say it all we like..Don't JADE, use SET. This is the intellect trying to appease, to get a sense of control. In the end, no matter what you do, your body is reacting to the attack, to the abuse.

Over the years, you absorb the stress. You become hyper alert. You are C-PTSD, from having had to use fawn and freeze too much in front of a threat.

You became good a it : you can numb yourself for protection. But this is still unhealthy, the stress remains. When you cannot feel, when you cut contact with your emotional world, when you numb yourself and freeze long enough, you start losing touch with who you are. And rage sets it.

You can control rage...up to a point until you can't because it became too much to bear.

Again : after a long period in a love relationship with a pwBPD, I believe the trauma you endure, in your body, is similar to the one we endured as children of pwBPD.I don't see why it would be any different.

I numbed myself. I dissociated. And the reason I am certain you do too, is because this is the only answer for your body when a pwBPD is dysregulated and threatening us physically. No amount of SET and not JADEing can change your body's response. You cannot control your limbic system.

To release the stress, you need to be able to feel the emotions and process them. Validate yourself and be mindful of yourself by giving you lots of self-compassion, something no one else can ever give you. You have to reconnect to your inner safety zone, which we all have.

It's ok to control yourself, to numb yourself during a discussion with her. But we should not confuse controlling ourselves with being mindfully observant of what is happening inside of us, as it is happening. If you don't feel anything, and is just...silent, numb... This raises a flag in my mind...it sounds more like dissociation than mindfullness. Which means you aren't processing your feelings. In turn, those stay stuck within you under the guise of stress and rage.

[ForeverDad]

15Y, you've been here for nearly a year.  We've provided you with many suggestions and approaches.  Thank you for listening... and trying.  But one of the patterns with strong BPD behaviors is that one strategy doesn't last long.  It's like that dutch boy with his finger in a dike, a leak will pop up elsewhere.  What does he do when all 10 fingers and 10 toes are tucked into the leaks?  That's similar to your dilemma.

We've been there, done that.  Some of us have lesser issues to deal with and have managed to continue in the marriage, and can be found on the Bettering board.  But what about those here who have faced worse problems, even abuse?  If nothing seems to work for you, or not very long, we've been there, done that too.  Many here, myself included, eventually concluded there was no choice for our own welfare (and that of the children) but to end the relationship.  Separation and, if married, then Divorce.  We don't advocate that as a quick option before tools, skills and strategies are attempted, but as a final option.

Here's what I wrote to another member here, likely you read it.

You've been here for 9 years.  Evidently you've decided to remain in the marriage, even if only for the kids.  As in "staying for the kids".  That is your choice.  That's what we do, not just continuing support but also education on skills, tools and strategies.

On the flip side, there's another perspective.

The book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.

I mention this because at some point, if all else fails, don't forget that this option has been taken by many here.  The distance apart has allowed us to regain a measure of stability, composure and relief.  The resulting custody and parenting schedule has helped the children to discover what a normal home life ought to be with a reasonably stable parent, even if not 100% of the time.

[SaltyDawg]

FD,

   That is very very insightful.  I will definitely ponder on "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."

   I read where you originally posted that.  While I do have a 7-year plan to stay in the marriage until my youngest child is out of the house and do as much damage control in the process and hopefully he doesn't become a BPD/NPD in the process - early signs are there . 

   I wish it could be sooner; however, my uBPDw also presents [even though I don't think she is as she doesn't boast about it] as a communal narcissist - the ultimate church lady.  No one in our church volunteers more than she does, no one does more than she does, and has successfully navigated the church through a few financial crises.  She also dutifully attends all of our children's activities.  She has honed the appearance to the outside world as being the 'perfect wife', but it is hell for me and the kids.

   I am a [merchant] sailor by trade, and the stereotype of that is not good.  So, I feel that I am definitely 'trapped'.  Right now I am resorting to covert recording the rages, splitting, gaslighting, etc. and preparing for a high conflict situation which I will likely loose everything.   

   My wife is hyperintelligent [literally valedictorian smart] with OCPD tendencies and can mentally outmaneuver me, this definitely explains your analogy of the Dutch boy and the dike analogy that you used.

   Since you have 'been there, done that' -- any words of wisdom?