Her getting involved with my T

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I haven't been seeing a T since the beginning of this year.   I quit because the T was busy and did not have regular time available, T's office was still doing virtual only, and I felt I was at a point where I needed something out of the house, and frankly was not all that helpful because of the BPD elephant in the room. 

I have had a few previous Ts that have basically (or bluntly) told me I am in an abusive relationship or experiencing domestic violence and that needs to be addressed before anything else.  In other words, issues of depression, anxiety, concentration, self esteem, etc can't be addressed without considering the DV situation.

W seems to think I have major issues that need to be addressed.   The "issues" she sees mostly stem from me leaving when she is screaming at me or verbally abusing me.  She claims she is not being abusive, and that I am just "overly sensitive" because of my childhood.  For example, the other night she stood there insulting me for 15 minutes while I had other things to do.  I told her I was not going to stay there and listen to her insult me.  She then claimed those weren't "insults" but instead were commentary on how I was parenting the kids.  Anyway, I left and took care of a few things I needed to do. 

So now she has gone so far as to find me a new T who is recommended and a colleague of her T.  I have no problem with seeing a new T, or even this T.  What concerns me is that she has already gone so far as to call this T and talk with him about his availability.  A second concern is the professional relationship between this T and W's T.  That could be good or bad. 

If I wind up meeting with this T, I won't tiptoe around things.  I will explain the domestic violence and abuse, the affect that has had on me and the children.  I won't hold anything back.  Considering this T knows W's T, how will that play out?  Do I specify that I don't want communication between them, or do I say that is okay?

[maxsterling]

I haven't been seeing a T since the beginning of this year.   I quit because the T was busy and did not have regular time available, T's office was still doing virtual only, and I felt I was at a point where I needed something out of the house, and frankly was not all that helpful because of the BPD elephant in the room. 

I have had a few previous Ts that have basically (or bluntly) told me I am in an abusive relationship or experiencing domestic violence and that needs to be addressed before anything else.  In other words, issues of depression, anxiety, concentration, self esteem, etc can't be addressed without considering the DV situation.

W seems to think I have major issues that need to be addressed.   The "issues" she sees mostly stem from me leaving when she is screaming at me or verbally abusing me.  She claims she is not being abusive, and that I am just "overly sensitive" because of my childhood.  For example, the other night she stood there insulting me for 15 minutes while I had other things to do.  I told her I was not going to stay there and listen to her insult me.  She then claimed those weren't "insults" but instead were commentary on how I was parenting the kids.  Anyway, I left and took care of a few things I needed to do. 

So now she has gone so far as to find me a new T who is recommended and a colleague of her T.  I have no problem with seeing a new T, or even this T.  What concerns me is that she has already gone so far as to call this T and talk with him about his availability.  A second concern is the professional relationship between this T and W's T.  That could be good or bad. 

If I wind up meeting with this T, I won't tiptoe around things.  I will explain the domestic violence and abuse, the affect that has had on me and the children.  I won't hold anything back.  Considering this T knows W's T, how will that play out?  Do I specify that I don't want communication between them, or do I say that is okay?

[Notwendy]

Max, I think you need a T but not because your wife says so. I think you need a T because you are considering her suggestion. For you to have a T that can be effective for you, the T needs to be your choice and have no connections to your W.

As Dr. Phil said, "you are all lost in the woods and looking to a disordered person to lead you out". You are going to get more lost by doing this.

No No No. Find your own T, and it's none of your wife's business.  

[ForeverDad]

Is there a way to determine how experienced and respected this T is?  Clearly Notwendy is concerned you will get a biased, clueless or inexperienced T who will be inclined to side with the T and (spouse) patient.

IF you do try out this T her T recommends, then you need to ensure that if your T can consult with her T, it must be a two way street.  That would mean both Ts must have permission to consult and discuss both patients.

No doubt spouse's T is only getting spouse's perceptions of the problems, claiming you're the problem.

[maxsterling]

Is there a way to determine how experienced and respected this T is?  Clearly Notwendy is concerned you will get a biased, clueless or inexperienced T who will be inclined to side with the T and (spouse) patient.

IF you do try out this T her T recommends, then you need to ensure that if your T can consult with her T, it must be a two way street.  That would mean both Ts must have permission to consult and discuss both patients.

No doubt spouse's T is only getting spouse's perceptions of the problems, claiming you're the problem.

He is a well-respected and educated T.  PhD level, with many years experience.  He doesn't work with W's T or in the same building.  They are just professional friends. 

My feeling is that the only reason to see this T is if he does have two-way communication with W's T.  IMO that would be more productive than a couples therapist.

[Riv3rW0lf]

This raises a big red flag for me, making me wary of her T and this T.

My stepmother, who is a psychologist, once referred me to someone she knew, and this person said she couldn't take me on because she knew too much about me. She wanted to remain unbiased, first and foremost : this is what any professional therapist would do, in my opinion. Both T would have, actually, to NOT speak about you guys to each other.

Not all therapists are equal. How did this T react to your wife calling him? Does he think this is normal behavior? It just sounds weird to me that both therapists are ok with her meddling with your therapy decision.

I don't know... You won't know unless you try. Will you feel guarded, though? Therapy should be for you, you shouldn't feel guarded going in...

[Rev]

In my part of the world, the professional order that regulates registered therapists prohibits this kind of communication without your expressed, informed, written consent.

If I'm understanding the communication between Therapists and your partner.


Rev

[I Am Redeemed]

Rev is right, confidentiality would prevent the therapists from discussing their individual clients with each other or the client's spouse.

It's possible your wife told her T that you were looking for a T, her T mentioned this colleague, and your wife took it upon herself to call and ask general questions about his availability. Her T may not know that you didn't ask for a recommendation and the other T may not know she was calling to find out availability for you and not herself.

[Turkish]

My feeling is that the only reason to see this T is if he does have two-way communication with W's T.  IMO that would be more productive than a couples therapist.

They would be forbidden from sharing insights without your explicit permission due to privacy laws and ethics... in the perfect world. Even if you were to give permission, there's no guarentee that your wife would, so you're 1-down.

What strikes me is two things:

1. This is a convoluted way of doing couples' therapy without your wife in the room. Not all triangulation is bad (and this is triangulation), but I don't see this as necessarily positive because:

2. She's still trying to control you which is abusive.

What do you think?

[maxsterling]

1. This is a convoluted way of doing couples' therapy without your wife in the room. Not all triangulation is bad (and this is triangulation), but I don't see this as necessarily positive because:

2. She's still trying to control you which is abusive.

What do you think?

Well, couples therapy in the same room is often triangulation (at least that is the way it felt), and that is why I am hesitant to do that again. 

As for #2 - definitely.  It's a trap either way. 

[Turkish]

The first session with our couples' counselor, he told me, "women need to be watered, like flowers..." yeah, no condensesion there!

She abandoned me to be "fixed" soon after. Just like my BPD mother did when I was 12. I stuck with it,  because  her. I spent a good down payment on a new car, but for myself.

Find your own T and take back your power.

[SinisterComplex]

The first session with our couples' counselor, he told me, "women need to be watered, like flowers..." yeah, no condensesion there!

She abandoned me to be "fixed" soon after. Just like my BPD mother did when I was 12. I stuck with it,  because  her. I spent a good down payment on a new car, but for myself.

Find your own T and take back your power.

Max, to follow up my comrade here...You have to do YOU. There is no other option. Strategic planning. Figure out your mission (goal) and then make following plans that support that mission so it comes to fruition. You are putting yourself through the ringer and you are kind of in a S or get off the pot situation.

As others have said...find your own T and make sure it is the right T for you. I understand you are married, but that doesn't mean that you stop being an individual. You can't act like you are attached at the hip or like she is the warden and you are the inmate. Bottom line is do what you have to do to be HAPPY for YOU.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[maxsterling]

Now she is mad because I was busy and did not call the T today while at work.  She says if I don't call this T, or another PhD accredited T, it is a "deal breaker" and she will file for divorce and fight for the kids.  She thinks my previous Ts were all horrible and didn't know what they were talking about because they taught me about boundaries and abuse.  

I've told this story here before, but the first T I went to was at her insistence, claiming I lack the skills to communicate correctly and that I must go see a T.  Here is how the session went:

T:  Why are you here today?
Me:  W is saying that I need help understanding women and learning how to communicate better.
T:  W is telling you this?  You seem to be communicating with me just fine.  Can you give me an example of a time when she says you did not communicate to her well?
Me: (tells one of those BPD stories where I got screamed at for no reason and was left scratching my head over what had happened)
T then reaches to the bookshelf and pulls out a book called "I hate you, don't leave me"

Took her ten minutes to figure out I was dealing with a W who had BPD.

[ForeverDad]

Max, to follow up my comrade here...You have to do YOU. There is no other option. Strategic planning. Figure out your mission (goal) and then make following plans that support that mission so it comes to fruition. You are putting yourself through the ringer and you are kind of in a S or get off the pot situation.

Reminds me of mugs I bought several years ago.  They described living with BPD so well.  Pardon me if a little cartoon relief doesn't fit here, the link goes to our off topic board.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=351337.msg13181959#msg13181959

[Notwendy]

If  this T helps you and you want to see him- great but I think you need to decide what you want to do. It's probably not a problem to see the T if he's qualified, but the therapy is between him and you.

[formflier]

I have had a few previous Ts that have basically (or bluntly) told me I am in an abusive relationship or experiencing domestic violence and that needs to be addressed before anything else.  In other words, issues of depression, anxiety, concentration, self esteem, etc can't be addressed without considering the DV situation.
 

Do you agree with their assessment?

Best,

FF

[Couscous]

I was reminded of this couple’s therapy role play by Patrick Teahan that shows the distinction between a truly abusive relationship vs an unhealthy, yet salvageable one when I read your post:

Part 1: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jDhsQ1Xh8M4
Part 2: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2RD7xKgfJ3g

He doesn’t write off the relationship because both parties were able to own their part in the unhealthy dynamic and attempt a repair. If the aggressive spouse wasn’t capable of doing that, then I think the relationship would have qualified as abusive.

[Notwendy]

I watched the first video and it made some good points. Was I seeing triple?

I could see the matching dynamics with one partner shutting down and the other one quick to anger- both as a result of childhood issues but I also see where this is a teaching demo- The therapist was doing this role playing to demonstrate certain techniques, good ones, but a response from couples could vary. 

Another aspect I noticed is that these two are able to think logically and make connections between their automatic emotional responses due to childhood issues. They were able to see that their partners are not their disordered parents and that they were reacting to each other as if they were.

Seems these two spouses in the video are functional - they can hold a job, one of them is doing more of the work of raising the kids but is doing a good job. At first glance, I'd trust him with kids because I believe he loves them, has their best interests in mind, and is capable. They seem to be more equal in their partnership- one is not a main caretaker for the other.

I don't have that confidence in my BPD mother or Max's wife from what I see here and I think a session like this would not be as productive.

I see Max's wife deciding he needs a T as more projection. I think it's been established that Max's wife has disordered thinking. Max may indeed need a T but possibly not for the reason she requests it. She thinks that if he goes to a T, it will fix the issues in their marriage but it won't solve her part in it.

I did see this video as very useful for us to see the dynamics we play a part in. This is a great example of this and if we can use the insight to how we react emotionally in relationships, this can help us make changes. I think it's mostly helpful for those who are able to look at themselves and make that connection.

I think Couscous' point that this kind of connection is a requirement for therapy to be effective is right on.

[Rev]

I think Couscous' point that this kind of connection is a requirement for therapy to be effective is right on.

It really boils down to this - trust your gut. Don't get caught in the weeds.

And I'm not personally super comfortable with the T's existing in blurred boundaries. It makes me wonder if the T's are not in some way contributing to the confusion.

Here's a link you might want to check out.  Apologies if it is redundant or I have lost the direction of the thread.

https://counsellingtutor.com/counselling-approaches/person-centred-approach-to-counselling/the-six-necessary-and-sufficient-conditions-for-therapeutic-personality-change/

Rev

[Couscous]

She says if I don't call this T, or another PhD accredited T, it is a "deal breaker" and she will file for divorce and fight for the kids.

In light of this, what you really need is couple’s counselor to ascertain whether or not your marriage is salvageable at this point.

[maxsterling]

I was reminded of this couple’s therapy role play by Patrick Teahan that shows the distinction between a truly abusive relationship vs an unhealthy, yet salvageable one when I read your post:

Part 1: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jDhsQ1Xh8M4
Part 2: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2RD7xKgfJ3g

He doesn’t write off the relationship because both parties were able to own their part in the unhealthy dynamic and attempt a repair. If the aggressive spouse wasn’t capable of doing that, then I think the relationship would have qualified as abusive.

That's basically where I am at.  I think W does see her role, and admits it internally, but never acts differently, apologizes, or sees things differently.  An example would be today.  I made a mistake on something that really was not a mistake because I did not have enough information going in to know that I was doing something wrong (the mistake being that I opened a prescription box for my daughter, but the school nurse needs it to be unopened.)  Of course W blamed me for it, said it ruined her day, increased her blood pressure, make it so she could not relax before her ketamine infusion...  Me opening the box is an action I took.  The rest are on her.  So she carried on with the name calling, sarcasm, and generally belittling and insulting behavior.  Then she accused me of ruining every ketamine infusion by not being nice to her beforehand and giving her extra things to do.  I suggested she look at her own behavior as a solution to her problem.  She refused.   If she later comes back and says, yeah, I could be "more gentle with you before my infusions", that is something I can work with.  But if the behavior of blaming me for things I am unaware of or have zero control over continues, her problem will never be solved. 

[Notwendy]

Max- my point is that both men in that video were far more intact mentally than your wife and both were able and willing to see their own behavior, and have insight to the cause of it. I didn't hear any of them blaming the other, or needing medication to get through the day. They both could hold a job.

I know it was just a short video but these two looked like a walk in the park compared to a relationship between a severely affected pwBPD and their partner.

[Couscous]

It’s not so much that she’s not being gentle that is the problem. — it’s that both of you have the mistaken belief that other people cause our emotions and reactions, and for her, she believes that this entitles her to lash out at others to “punish” them, and also that she has low-frustration tolerance.

[Notwendy]

could be "more gentle with you before my infusions"

As if she's doing you a favor? Max, I am concerned about your own self esteem. Being kind to your spouse isn't something someone has to think about "well maybe I will spare you my wrath today" as if not being kind is the norm.

I wonder about your sense of "normal" is as I observed my father buy into my mother's point of view until they functioned like one person. He must have had to dismiss his own sense of reality in order to be aligned with hers.

This is why I think a T would help you as a T can be a reality check and help you with some boundaries about what is true and what is a result of your wife's feelings.

It's sad that your wife needs Ketamine to feel better. She needs Ketamine because she has a mental illness. Ketamine is not a first line treatment for mild mental illness- it's for severe situations and you know that. She deserves to be treated with respect like all humans do. It's not her fault that she struggles. It's up to you to hold on to a more logical and realistic perspective. You can be compassionate without buying in to what isn't true or reasonable.

[SinisterComplex]

Reminds me of mugs I bought several years ago.  They described living with BPD so well.  Pardon me if a little cartoon relief doesn't fit here, the link goes to our off topic board.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=351337.msg13181959#msg13181959

Sometimes the best words of wisdom are long passed down quotes throughout history. Beyond that I would say when you put words to a picture I think they have more staying power too such as quotes on mugs. ;-)

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[Riv3rW0lf]

As if she's doing you a favor? Max, I am concerned about your own self esteem. Being kind to your spouse isn't something someone has to think about "well maybe I will spare you my wrath today" as if not being kind is the norm.

I wonder about your sense of "normal" is as I observed my father buy into my mother's point of view until they functioned like one person. He must have had to dismiss his own sense of reality in order to be aligned with hers.

I have to second Notwendy here...

But I also want to acknowledge and recognize your answers to your wife though, how you tried to bring her back to her own behavior and decision. Because you are right, her reactions was not your fault, and you were aware of that. You kept your story straight : it was an honest mistake that did not warrant the kind of reactions she had, that did not warrant her rage.

Is there ANY sign at all of some sort of acknowledgment on her part that you are not a bad guy?

My mother often acts like I am willingly trying to be hurtful to her, that everyone is out to get her. I often had to remind her : "I am not trying to hurt you. Stop looking at me like the enemy. I am your (insert your relationship), I want you to be well and happy." This is about the only sentence that seemed to get to her. And I would tell her too : "You are hurting me right now." It would take her aback.

I think, when we are actively being abused by someone, we don't want to me "more vulnerable". But I don't think it is showing vulnerability to tell them what they are doing... : "Your words are hurting me right now." How would she react to this?

[Couscous]

I have had a few previous Ts that have basically (or bluntly) told me I am in an abusive relationship or experiencing domestic violence and that needs to be addressed before anything else.

And what are you hoping a new T will be able to do to help you address this?