W started calling me when D is with me

[Manic Miner]

We are not divorced, but started living separately.

We agreed for our D to spend a time with me 2-3x a week for a full day.

However, lately she reduced that to 2 days claiming 'daughter is exhausted with school', even though that's not entirely true - her 'tiredness' is not affected by being with me or her. I tried telling that calmly but was swiftly interrupted that 'D's needs need to come first' and that she will not argue or listen to my 'persuasions'.

Further, for the last couple of times she started calling me on the phone when daughter is with me to 'hear her'. I also tried to tell her that she's alright and that it would mean a lot to me to be with her alone, while I would text her back what we did. Again, was interrupted and stopped with 'it's entirely normal for a mother to hear her child'.

So basically, I cannot even be alone for 24h with D, for only 2 days a week without hearing with my W twice.
Of course this is not because D is unsafe, afraid or has any kind of issues related to parenting or bonding. It's not about daughter after all, but her problems that are allover the place. Insecurities, entitlement, no respect for my parenting etc.
I feel like under surveillance of some kind.

I don't know how to effectively stop her doing this or reduce it to somewhat normal levels when D is with me? Any hints what to try or tools to use? I could set some boundaries, but it would bounce back at least three times worse, as I know my W- she likes tit-for-tat oh so much.

[Notwendy]

it's entirely normal for a mother to hear her child'.

It's entirely normal for a child to spend a day with their father without taking calls from her mother as long as all is OK.

Boundaries are for you, not her. They determine your behavior.

Here's one: " Our D is perfectly fine with me for the day. If there's anything wrong, or if she wants to speak to you, we will call you. Otherwise, I will spend the day with her without interruption"

Then, you don't speak on the phone. If she texts, all you text back is "we are fine".

[Manic Miner]

Boundaries are for you, not her. They determine your behavior.

Here's one: " Our D is perfectly fine with me for the day. If there's anything wrong, or if she wants to speak to you, we will call you. Otherwise, I will spend the day with her without interruption"

Then, you don't speak on the phone. If she texts, all you text back is "we are fine".

That I also tried. I already told her that I always text her everything D&I did at the end of the day and if there was anything important, she would be first to know. I emphasized W's importance, as she can be more 'empathetic' that way. Did it work? No. It worked for a day. Next time was rinse and repeat.

Generally, I have to say, all agreements that W and I make are like dealing with someone that has a 'goldfish attention span'. We can talk for the whole day, reach something and after 2-3 days it will be like we didn't talk at all.

My boundaries in parenting only provoke her and she starts interrupting or not listening to me at all, getting angry.
If something else was the case, I wouldn't care this much. But since it's about my D, it's my weak spot and she, as a mother, is her prime caretaker. She sees herself entitled and way above me in parenting. Provoking or asserting boundaries can make her act even more disordered in this case. That means even harder times for me to see my D or to stick to any agreement.

[I Am Redeemed]

She has no legal recourse to deny you time with your D if there is nothing but a verbal agreement. The two of you have "equal and undefined" rights when it comes to parenting.

What is stopping you from getting your D on the days you agreed to? What does she do or say that prevents this from happening and how do you respond?

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that she gets to make the decisions about when and how often you spend time with your D just because she's the mother.

[Notwendy]

Of course that boundary didn't work. It's not a boundary.

You can't control if she calls. Agreeing on not calling isn't a boundary.

The boundary is what you do to protect your time with your D.

Do you lock your front door? If you don't want to be robbed, do you put a sign on the door saying " you will not rob my house". Do you have a discussion with robber and have them agree to not rob your house?

How well would that work?

No, you lock your door.

Having an agreement with someone to not call you during a certain time doesn't work. They can call whenever they want.

The boundary is what you do Don't answer your phone.

[Manic Miner]

She has no legal recourse to deny you time with your D if there is nothing but a verbal agreement. The two of you have "equal and undefined" rights when it comes to parenting.

What is stopping you from getting your D on the days you agreed to? What does she do or say that prevents this from happening and how do you respond?

Well, here's how our conversation goes:

Me: I'd like to be with D 3x a week.
W: Hmm alright, that can be a bit too much in our schedule. What did you have in mind?
Me: Well, I could take her 2x after school and 1x on weekends <further discussing days>.
W: Let me write that down to check my schedule. I will have to think about it.
W: Hmm... no, not sure. She'd get very tired of going back and forth with school, your place and mine.
Me: But, she's not going to both places at the same day. Her school is almost exactly at the same distance for both of us. It's irrelevant where she goes - she's not traveling longer.
W: I don't want to argue with you nor hear your persuasions. I said it's tiring for her. You need to think about her needs before yours.
Me: I don't understand because...<interrupts>
W: Try to think about this further and maybe then you'll understand.
Me: <repeating the above and insisting to have 3x a week>
W: Look, I'm living with her while you are living alone in your apartment. I'm her mother and do stuff for her, okay? You are completely free to do your own stuff in your own apartment (emphasized 2x that it's my own apt and that I'm free). When we start living closer to each other, then it will be alright to see her 3x a week, until then, 2x is enough. It's tiring for her.
Me: Just think about it more (knowing that her spoken word means nothing in the long run and can change depending on her mood)

The truth here is - yes, she does more parenting than me, even though it's by her own will to be 5:2, not 4:3 per week. Also it's true that she is making plans for our D to go on a physical therapy 2x a week and all that is needed for daughter's special needs (though much more vocally said than done).
This all makes her very much entitled. Her view of my parenting is mostly a diminishing one - I'm there to have fun and play with my D, all the work and everything 'serious' is done by her. The reality is of course different, but it's how she thinks.

She is obsessed with her motherhood, always praising mothers and women's sacrifices (do I have to say that she has/had issues with her father that was treated alcoholic when she was young and still thinks of him very lowly deep inside?)

[whirlpoollife]

Sorry Manic Miner that you have to go thru this .  Your wife sounds jealous and controlling.  My two children are adults now but in the divorce and custody process during their school years my xh started off by talking to kids , when with me,  for about 3 hrs a day.   Hour and half each.  Before school , after school and up to midnight . ( court order stated reasonable time )  Fortunately at the time , I was able to print out some phone records and yellow highlighted his calls .  I presented it to the custody master during one of our hearings.  His time on the phone got a new court order.  Ten minutes each before and after school , and I think 20 min each up to 11 pm.  xh used every second and would not get off the phone until I had to tell kids time is up.  And he got unlimited texts.  My calls to kids while with xh were minimal as the phones , which I paid for, were “lost “or had “dead batteries”  and kids wouldn’t say a word to me when I did get a hold of them. 
I didn’t have a back bone to have boundaries.  So for you try to .   It takes practice.    Not answering the phone is a good start.   
Keep  records of her number of calls and amount of time on phone with D.   So you would have some proof to show in court if needed.   

For any future custody orders, I have learned that “reasonable “ time does not work with pwpd. 
Also what  is temporary now , days with D too,  might turn permanent in the eyes of a court as they would see this as “working” . 

[ForeverDad]

Are you getting overnights with your daughter?  For the rest of this post I'll assume you are.

Are there any issues with your separated wife when you call to speak with your daughter?  When dealing with pwBPD there are often situations where the other feels "I get to make the rules for you but I'm exempt from my rules".  The point is that you probably can't block her calls as long as the topic and length is age appropriate.  Young children don't talk much on phone calls.  But if she calls on your time, then you get the reciprocal terms, you can call your daughter on her time.

Further, for the last couple of times she started calling me on the phone when daughter is with me to 'hear her'.

There's a term for this that probably fits, object constancy which means she needs reminders of her child.  Years ago comment was made of one pwBPD who slept with her ex's t-shirt so she could smell him.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=70884.0;all

She has no legal recourse to deny you time with your D if there is nothing but a verbal agreement. The two of you have "equal and undefined" rights when it comes to parenting.

Since you don't have a court order or some legally obligated agreement now, then you have "equal but undefined" parenting rights.  Problem is, you'll have a hard time enforcing a prior verbal vague 2-3 days.  You don't have leverage to back you up.  Until you have a written agreement or a court order, then it's somewhat like "possession is 9/10s of the law".  Even the police would likely side with a mother, though they'd also advise you to "fix it in court".  That's why I asked above whether you're getting overnights.  Many here experienced your situation and typically overnights were withheld too.

Advice for the coming months:  Never relent from your stance that you are important as a father and there is nothing wrong or improper about you as a parent.  When the time comes for your initial temp order for custody and parenting schedule, beware that some courts default to preference for mothers to take charge.  In my temp orders (one for separation and another for the divorce) despite my spouse facing a case against her for Threat of DV, she had temp custody and temp majority time.  Me, all I had was long alternate weekends a an evening in between.  Neither the court nor the lawyers were interested in adjusting that, not until the final decree two years later.

So very important, in the brief time slot allowed you in a temp order hearing, mine was just a half hour, make sure you do your best to not walk out with chump change, so to speak.

[Manic Miner]

Are you getting overnights with your daughter?  For the rest of this post I'll assume you are.

Yes, all are overnights. On weekdays, I pick her after school and next day in the morning we wait for the school bus and so on.

Are there any issues with your separated wife when you call to speak with your daughter?  When dealing with pwBPD there are often situations where the other feels "I get to make the rules for you but I'm exempt from my rules".  The point is that you probably can't block her calls as long as the topic and length is age appropriate.  Young children don't talk much on phone calls.  But if she calls on your time, then you get the reciprocal terms, you can call your daughter on her time.

The fact is, I never called W to speak with my D when she was with her. One time when I objected W's callings and told her that I myself don't do that, she said that I could.
The reason I don't is twofold - my D has special needs so talking on the phone is somewhat limited or can trigger some stereotypical responses. And second, maybe even the most important one is that I actually trust my W on this.
Unlike her, I don't need to check how is D doing by phone, I trust she's doing well. Evidence showed it was always ok. Instead, I text W at the end of the day to see how they are, if they had a great day and so on. Not to spy or double check if my W did something good or bad.

Sadly, that means nothing for W in the long run. Neither to feel better, as a validation that she is a good mother nor as a reciprocity. In fact, it's my belief that she even sees this as my fault or maybe even thinks I'm a careless father since I'm not 'fighting' for my D, as she does.
I'm not sure what's your take on this, maybe I should start calling her as well, if that would help in this situation?

There's a term for this that probably fits, object constancy which means she needs reminders of her child.  Years ago comment was made of one pwBPD who slept with her ex's t-shirt so she could smell him.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=70884.0;all

Thank you on this, it's so on point.
It's interesting though, when W's away for 3-4 days while traveling to some sports manifestation, our D can 'suddenly' stay with me for 2-3 days straight. While she did request one time to speak with her as well, W seemed much more reasonable to just use texting for everything. Is that also 'object constancy' related? W is more relaxed, her mood is uplifted by the event so her thinking is quite well and normal.

Since you don't have a court order or some legally obligated agreement now, then you have "equal but undefined" parenting rights.  Problem is, you'll have a hard time enforcing a prior verbal vague 2-3 days.  You don't have leverage to back you up.  Until you have a written agreement or a court order, then it's somewhat like "possession is 9/10s of the law".

Luckily, overnights are here to stay and she never objected that.
My main wildcard here is that her spoken words are usually inconsistent and depend on her mood. So, even when she says no, or 'will think about it', means I should never give up and try more, if I think that's important.

Advice for the coming months:  Never relent from your stance that you are important as a father and there is nothing wrong or improper about you as a parent.  When the time comes for your initial temp order for custody and parenting schedule, beware that some courts default to preference for mothers to take charge.  In my temp orders (one for separation and another for the divorce) despite my spouse facing a case against her for Threat of DV, she had temp custody and temp majority time.  Me, all I had was long alternate weekends a an evening in between.  Neither the court nor the lawyers were interested in adjusting that, not until the final decree two years later.

Thanks. I'm not against for my W to take charge if we do divorce. My attorney says that 50:50 is used only when both parties are normal and can make fruitful discussions and effective compromises in parenting in the long run. When that is not the case, usually one parent takes charge (mother), while our law prevents any big events for a child (from moving to changing schools/religion/medical procedures/etc.) to be made by a parent in charge alone. Both parents need to agree to that regardless of who's in charge. It's against the law otherwise. And I'm fine with that. My attorney also says that having W in charge only means D would have more sleepovers at her place per week and that I'd have to pay alimony (no alimony in 50:50). I retain all other rights as a parent. I'm fine with that too.

At first I was all for 50:50, but W instantly refused. Then I was considering her history of inconsistency, lack of any foresight or introspection, being angry and sad that I "abandoned her", I think the outcome would be highly volatile and unpredictable. As I said previously, I do trust my W enough to be good and caring mother.

So the real issue now, since we didn't divorce, is how to effectively: a) stop calling me when D is with me, without utilizing drastic measures b) try to make her see that having 1 more sleepover day per week (3 in total) is not against D. Or to be more blunt, to make her stop using D as leverage for her own insecurity.

[Notwendy]

Perhaps it would help to not assume sameness in thought between you and your W. You may trust her when she has your D, but she may feel anxious, lack of object constancy or some other reason to call when you have your D- but that doesn't mean she doesn't trust you. I probably has more to do about her than you. I think what is irritating is that the reason for her calls is her needs, not your D's. Perhaps there's a way to cut down on the frequency while still leaving some opportunity for your W to check in, keeping in mind these calls don't say anything about you, or trust.

You may be thinking "when W has D, time for yourself" while your W may be feeling differently about not having D full time. This new arrangement is an adjustment for both of you. She may have BPD but "empty nest" feelings are common. BPD may make it more difficult to manage.

[Manic Miner]

Perhaps it would help to not assume sameness in thought between you and your W. You may trust her when she has your D, but she may feel anxious, lack of object constancy or some other reason to call when you have your D- but that doesn't mean she doesn't trust you. It probably has more to do about her than you.

Good point. Now that you said it, it makes a lot more sense. And I think that's actually the case, thank you.

I think what is irritating is that the reason for her calls is her needs, not your D's

It's clear as a day it's about her needs and not D's, but it's covered in 'D needs me' or 'D needs to hear her mother'. I get sick in my stomach when I hear that. Just being honest and clear like 'hey, i really miss her, today I feel alone', I'd be first to say 'hold on, I will give you D on the phone to cheer you up'. But I know, voicing her emotions rightly, without judging, projecting and making herself entitled at the same time is just a wishful thinking.

Perhaps there's a way to cut down on the frequency while still leaving some opportunity for your W to check in, keeping in mind these calls don't say anything about you, or trust.  

I guess it will be my job to auto-translate those irritating responses to meaningful ones. I'm no Google Translate but will try.   Cutting down the frequency is the next step. I tried with texting - I texted her nicely, wrote things D&I did, even said 'do not worry <3'. Didn't help. As you said, it's not about D or me after all.

You may be thinking "when W has D, time for yourself" while your W may be feeling differently about not having D full time. This new arrangement is an adjustment for both of you. She may have BPD but "empty nest" feelings are common. BPD may make it more difficult to manage.

Well, that's good to know. Maybe I should start thinking like that as well. Some common sense in this.

It's not easy for me though. I needed to go through the same phase when both of them were suddenly gone when W decided to go and D was out as a consequence.
My wife didn't have that much empathy for me then, nor for D. Actually said 'D's needs should come first' when I told her that having D here would mean a lot to me and she (D) had a nice time as well. When feeling insecure, when she mentions 'D's needs', she is actually thinking about herself and her relation to D first.

[Notwendy]

It's not easy for me though. I needed to go through the same phase when both of them were suddenly gone when W decided to go and D was out as a consequence.
My wife didn't have that much empathy for me then, nor for D. Actually said 'D's needs should come first' when I told her that having D here would mean a lot to me and she (D) had a nice time as well. When feeling insecure, when she mentions 'D's needs', she is actually thinking about herself and her relation to D first.

In 12 step co dependency groups we worked on "expecting people to be different from who they are" and why that is flawed thinking. I think it's something we all tend to do- assume that if we are empathetic they will be too. But you are who you are and she is who she is and expecting her to think like you is like imposing your way on to her.

From observing my own BPD mother, she's motivated by her own needs. Whatever she wants to call this- it's still her needs. Yes, this situation was hard for you but expecting your wife to think differently is not going to work.

You can have expectations about how you want to be treated- but the boundaries are what you do in reaction to when you are not treated according to your expectations. You don't tell a burglar to not rob your house and expect them to not do it. You lock your door. If someone is verbally abusive to you, then you disengage from the conversation. If they see you do that, perhaps they won't do it again but maybe they will and they will get the same response.

If your wife doesn't show empathy towards you, that's her thinking and her behavior. Boundaries means the boundary between you and other people. What's you, what is them. You can't control how anyone else thinks.

[Manic Miner]

I understand Notwendy. In other relations with people I have learned to detach, disengage and let go. Like you said - I lock the door, without waiting or thinking of burglar attempts.

However, if we are to have a healthy and meaningful romantic relationship that is toxic or bad in its current form, it starts to move in many directions at once.

If there's a 'greater goal' like children involved, long history of being together (like half of our lives), emotional bonds and attraction that are still there, nostalgia and other things, simple equations there become complex.

What I'd 'let go' loong ago or in any other circumstances, I now wait, contemplate or try to fix and give more chances. It's hard to care about someone deeply, walk an extra mile, while someone seems superficial, angry or lost in her own mind struggles. Some expectations arise. But I still try. Deep down I sense she cares. It's always a mixture and rarely pure. How long will I do that, I don't know. There's a hope that we'll reach something meaningful or less stressful and work from there.

If your wife doesn't show empathy towards you, that's her thinking and her behavior. Boundaries means the boundary between you and other people. What's you, what is them. You can't control how anyone else thinks.  

I know and this just makes it more complicated. It's not logical - it is for people that are outside - but for us, stuck in a deep and long relationship that had beautiful times and connection too, the strict boundary lines tend to get erased or blurred.

[ForeverDad]

It's clear as a day it's about her needs and not D's, but it's covered in 'D needs me' or 'D needs to hear her mother'. I get sick in my stomach when I hear that. Just being honest and clear like 'hey, i really miss her, today I feel alone', I'd be first to say 'hold on, I will give you D on the phone to cheer you up'.

My ex also knew to phrase herself as "my son needs me" rather than the obviously needy "I need my son".  Whether her friends or someone else informed her, I don't know.  She was still a disordered problem parent.  She's still that way and he's an adult now having outgrown the court system.  It is what it is.