Thoughts after reading a book 'Stop caretaking of a BP/NP - How to end drama'

[Manic Miner]

This book was eyeopening for me. I read it in just 2 days and I couldn't stop. It's so nicely written. Before I read it again and take notes, I wanted to mention here something that was new to me.

- Caretaking vs Codependent. This book is focused on "caretakers". Codependency is a term I took for granted. I felt I was codependent, but something was off. I can function quite nicely alone. I don't need another one to survive or take care of someone by default. I love helping people where I can and if I can. But I consciously consider whether to help someone or not. I'm never in impulsivity to do so. I can see myself as an altruist, but I'm not seeking opportunity to help for the sake of helping, showing off or being with others.

As this book said:
Codependent behaviors could be described quite similarly to those that Caretakers use. However, most Caretakers take on this role almost exclusively inside the family and primarily only with the borderline or narcissist. Often Caretakers are very independent, good decision makers, competent, and capable on their own when not in a relationship with a borderline or narcissist. It is almost as if the Caretaker lives in two different worlds with two different sets of behaviors, rules, and expectations, one set with the BP/NP and another with everyone else.

This was quite an eyeopening and a-ha moment for me. It's much more clear now that I'm de-facto a caretaker and have been in that role for decades. When alone I'm independent, very good decision maker and totally capable of living by myself, having a good time. Do I sometimes feel lonely and sad? Of course. Some days are much harder than others - after 23y of being in intensive relationship with my W and our daughter, but I can still do it.

Speaking of the Caretaker test, I scored 144 or Pathological Altruism. But when I read her explanation, I'm essentially between Pathological Altruism and Protesting Colluder.

--

Another thing that this book opened for me was how much detrimental caretaking was for both the caretaker and pwBPD. It is truly something to consider. It's not that taking care of someone is bad, but that 'care' doesn't work for BP/NP. Not in the sense we hope, in a sense they need. As a consequence you feel bad, with growing resentment, frustration and all kinds of issues. You are waiting for something that will never happen and even disabling possible healing for you and your loved one together.

--

And finally, near the end of her book she made a chapter called Leaving or staying. It's almost like the author is considering NP to be a bit easier to deal with than BP. She made numerous cautions and warnings about 'staying with BP'.

First few lines for NP:
Many NPs are charming, funny, creative, energetic, and financially successful. They need a lot of attention and adoration, but that may be just fine with you, especially if you find that you enjoy giving that kind of attention. If you can maintain power over your own life and choices, and if the NP is not too domineering, demanding, or controlling, you may be satisfied with your life.

However for BP she said this:
Even under the best circumstances, the BP is very hard to live with. The BP’s thoughts, feelings, delusions, and emotions and even his or her commitment to the relationship can shift so radically and so often that it keeps everyone on edge. The BP may have rages, jealousies, inconsistencies, and demands that can be impossibly difficult to deal with. It is also extremely difficult not to fall into the Caretaker role with the BP even when you are aware of the pattern and trying very hard to avoid caretaking.

Notice the change in language? Reading between the lines, she's almost holding you back and making you reconsider your thoughts about BPs again.

Based on my own experience, she seems right. My father is a NPD or at the very least has several NP traits. Even though I went semi-NC, I did see him in his house recently. The two of us were fine being together. We were having a nice time - with my boundaries around.
When I think about it now, as an adult and at this distance, there were many, many issues around my father. He loves attention, making jokes, gossiping, being in control and is a prime tester of whether you made boundaries or not. But he was never a person where you felt bad after meeting with him, sucked out of life or thinking 'this man is just crazy'.

He was always uplifting, incredibly creative, full of life and charming, even if it was for a show. An actor, a trickster? Maybe. But many times when I was down, after meeting with him felt uplifted and positive again. I will always remember when the two of us were arranging a funeral for my grandmother, he said to me afterwards in his car 'son, this was draining for both of us. What do you say to save the day and cheer up a bit with a cake and coffee, I know a nice pastry shop around the corner?'.

After all, I never feared for him that he wasn't capable of living his own life, be successful financially and good as a doctor. The lines of what he was and wasn't capable of doing were much more clear. The workarounds for me were also more clear and straightforward. I exactly knew in advance what was going to work with him and what to avoid. If he promised you something tomorrow, you could bet all your money that he'd deliver on time.

Unlike pwBPD. Sometimes it's just dreadful to be around them. Yes, they are more loyal and pure, but you can feel their misery, you don't know if they will be bad, good, ecstatic or depressed. Responsibility gone. You meet BPD when they are in the 'mood', thinking - oh no, she is crazy again. Their behaviour is a lot more erratic, unpredictable, draining, destructive. You don't know if they are capable of being themselves without you. They belittle, insult, rage when feeling abandoned, threat they will "do the worst" if you leave them. Even if it's only drama it still hurts. It's a stark contrast between my wife and issues with my father.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this book and NPD versus BPD. This book was really really interesting find and lots of food for thought in the days to come.

[BKDamon]

Hi Manic Miner,

Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts.

I haven’t read this book, but I find the bit about caretakers vs. codependents quite interesting. I started reading a lot about BPD around the time I left my UxBPDw about a year and a half ago, and from what I was reading, I had the impression that people who engage in long-term relationships with pwBPDs (we stayed together a little more than 15 years) usually have narcissistic or codependent traits. I went along with the idea that I might have either one of those sets of traits, but neither did really fit, in reality.

The description of the caretaker given in the excerpts you give, on the other hand, seems to describe me and my relationship with my ex quite well. It makes me want to dig a little deeper. Do you think this book would be helpful for s.o who no longer lives with the pwBPD?
I left her after a series of extramarital affairs on her part, so too much harm has been done for us to have any kind of close relationship, but we still have to collaborate from time to time for the sake of our kids. And even if we now only communicate in writing, she can still be pretty abusive and dramatic.

On the idea that NPs are easier to deal with than BPs, I think I can see that. A couple of my previous supervisors and bosses definitely have clear narcissistic traits, and they are indeed charming and uplifting, as long as you’re willing to spend the first twenty minutes of every conversation talking about them and how wonderful they are (they’re not covert narcissists, I’m afraid). It gets them it the right mood and we can then move forward. It always seems pretty easy to give them what they need. I mean, in a really cordial but still not-too-personal work relationship at least. I’ve never been really close to a pwNPD, I suspect that it’s a whole different story.

With my ex, on the other hand, I never really knew what she needed. I went with my instinct some times, with what she said she needed other times... nothing really worked and I think she never really knew what she needed. I loved her and wanted to take care of her, but none of things that I did were quite right. Even when everything was going well, she had this idea that it wasn’t normal, that something bad was going to happen. So even the "good times" were tainted with a vague, latent sense of impending doom. I’m afraid I can’t say that my ex was loyal and pure. In my experience, pwBPDs can be as manipulative as pwNPDs, but it might just be because of the frequent comorbidity with NPD.

Thanks again for sharing!

[Turkish]

"Co-dependant" is a term that's thrown around here haphazardly, like narcissism tends to be in popular culture.  What you posted aligns with what my PysD therapist told me years ago: clinical codependency affects all facets and relationships in life. "I'm treating a true codependent. You're not one."

He than talked about Caretakers and admitted to being one himself having grown up in an alcoholic household. He said, "there's nothing wrong with being a Caretaker."

[FirstSteps]

This is such a core question for me.  I am in the same situation - I am such a caretaker in my relationship and maybe in a few others.  But in most of my life, I'm just fine - at work, with my kids, with friends.

I did try going to CoDependents Anonymous meetings for a month, and they were actually helpful.  I just took the messages to be just for my core relationship, NOT my whole life.  But I eventually did feel too different from the rest of the people there.  They were talking about their whole lives and personalities, and I was focused on this one relationship.

I love that book too.  She has a fantastic newsletter too.  I recommend signing up for it.  It's like a monthly sanity check just when I need it.

[Notwendy]

On co-dependent vs caretaker. I am familiar with the co-dependent concept- caretaker isn't a term uses as much but I think it's more of a spectrum- just like BPD and NPD is. There are people with BPD or NPD traits who may have some personality difficulties but are functional and then, people with BPD/NPD whose behaviors are more disruptive to their relationships.

I have been in 12 step co-dependency groups and have seen a spectrum of these behaviors. These are public groups and people from all different circumstances come to them. It doesn't make sense that we'd relate to everyone. I recall being puzzled when a counselor recommended I go to one. I thought it was only about addiction issues but it isn't. It actually takes a while to feel a "fit" in the group and different groups seem to have a different culture depending on the mix of people. The steps are the same though.

I worked with a sponsor in the group- Part of the process is to allow someone to call you out on your behaviors- when you are caretaking, enabling, not being authentic, so you can see your part in the dynamics. Often we can't see our behaviors as clearly- it's about allowing someone to "turn the mirror" on you so you can see what you wish to do differently.

Just like for many partners here who may not be formally diagnosed as BPD- if the relationship tools help, if the "working label" helps- then it's less about that than to get results. I don't think I fully fit the "co-dependent" label in some ways either, the description of caretaker seems to fit better too, but actually, I think they are both on the same spectrum of codependent behaviors and not distinct categories. Caretaking too much and enabling behaviors can be problematic no matter what the label.

Same with the idea of BPD vs NPD- the PD's can actually overlap in some ways. I think the distinction is less important than the behaviors that are most troublesome to a partner. I also don't think one is easier to be in a relationship than the other due to the PD's being on a spectrum. "Mild" of either is probably easier to be around than further on the spectrum. Both are difficult disorders that tend to be "fixed" and hard to change. Both can be abusive. Abuse is a problem regardless of the "label".

For some reason, there's resistance to considering the co-dependent label as if it means someone is weak and dependent but I have met many who are not. It's got more to do with where someone's focus is than what we think of as "dependent". If someone is focused mostly on their BPD partner's moods and feelings and trying to control that by walking on eggshells and being inauthentic, working on co-dependency might help with that.

[Manic Miner]

@Notwendy

I get your point. This was a small excerpt, it's actually a huge topic she did throughout the book. She also never separated BP from NP. But her brief summary for NPs and BPs was the one I cited. We all know that almost no BPD or NPD case is alike, let alone several PDs together. It's is a spectrum, yeah.

But what I find 'better' with NPs is they seem more high-functioning and predictable by default. In order to get the narcissistic supply, they *need* to provide something. Be it the looks, charm, humour, excel in their job, status, money. If they don't have that, their supply is greatly reduced to nonexistent. So, in a sense, their survival depends on giving something, feeling good and fishing for the return.

Contrary to BPs that are almost waiting for someone to save them, nurture them while their giving and reciprocity is questionable, erratic, hugely unpredictable or depends on the mood that is usually negative. If you add their occasional craziness that is borderline psychotic, it gets even worse.

Both are PDs, on the same spectrum and nothing is completely 'good' here, requiring huge amount of effort and work if you are to be around them. That's what this book is about. But I kind of get what the author tried to say there, based on my experience with my BPD wife and NPD father.

[Manic Miner]

The description of the caretaker given in the excerpts you give, on the other hand, seems to describe me and my relationship with my ex quite well. It makes me want to dig a little deeper. Do you think this book would be helpful for s.o who no longer lives with the pwBPD?

My impression is that this book was written for the caretakers, not narcissists or borderlines. So yes, it could benefit her if she had a BP in her life.

On the idea that NPs are easier to deal with than BPs, I think I can see that. It always seems pretty easy to give them what they need. I mean, in a really cordial but still not-too-personal work relationship at least. I’ve never been really close to a pwNPD, I suspect that it’s a whole different story.

Exactly. I get that it's different for someone romantically linked to a narcissist than having a narcissistic boss or being a child of narcissistic parent. As this book said, if you can maintain your sense of self, control, privacy and have no problem with bigger-than-life persona of a narcissist, you can live your life together just fine. I think the biggest deal-breaker you can face with your N partner is high probability for their infidelities and their manipulations around that.

Speaking of my father, I now realize that the most crucial and essential thing in dealing with him were the boundaries. It's THE most essential tool to use. If boundaries are firmly set and clearly defined by yourself, most of all problems with him will simply go away. Like literally down to zero. It's easier said than done, but it's 100% working. Sadly, I didn't know that before, I'm only getting aware of lately, hence my semi-NC I did in the past. Still, I see all those boundaries I subconsciously set for him before were always working and gave results.

I’m afraid I can’t say that my ex was loyal and pure. In my experience, pwBPDs can be as manipulative as pwNPDs, but it might just be because of the frequent comorbidity with NPD.

I hear you. They are manipulative as hell, but I meant pwBPD tended to love their chosen one to the bone, with higher degree of empathy for you - when they feel right. NPDs are more superficial, all talk and grandiose, but not much deep.
Still, If I had to choose between a nice uplifting comedic act or drama with a meaning but with a sad end, you can bet your life I'd go for the first and entirely skip the second.    

So even the "good times" were tainted with a vague, latent sense of impending doom.

Oh yes, I can feel that. My W is high-functioning so while she isn't doom and gloom, she always had to change or add drama to something trivial, some daily routine stuff. It's almost like everyday, every task or thought she experienced as living for the first time ever, consuming huge amount of energy.

[Notwendy]

I'll present the "NP better than BPD" in another perspective. I think on the milder end, someone with narcissistic traits is more functional than someone with BPD traits and probably easier to deal with.

On the more severe end, neither is easier than the other to deal with because both are associated with abuse and once there's abuse, the relationship is harmful, no matter what the label, one "reason" for abuse isn't better than the other. Both are also resistant to therapy.

My BPD mother is on the more severe end and has NPD tendencies and this makes her behavior and being in a relationship with her very difficult.

I would consider my father as very high functioning. As to if he was a caretaker or co-dependent, that's probably a matter of choice but whatever it was, he was also an enabler. We walked on eggshells so much in our family - it was our "normal". Yet, Dad was the one who was employed, accomplished in his profession, self sufficient- not a weak or dependent person in any sense of the word "dependent" but he was mainly focused on my BPD mother's feelings to the extent he neglected his own. That may be the key- not what you do for the BPD partner but to what extent you neglect yourself. It's important to consider other people but when it becomes to your own detriment, consider it may be overdoing that.

[Manic Miner]

I think I finally 'unlocked' what was bugging me in this relationship all those years and this book helped me realize.

Raging, insults, belittling and splitting during phases were just part of the problem and a 'nuisance'. I even tend to think that I could find a workaround by reducing triggers, better boundaries and not responding to ill behaviour. In fact, my W tries to overcome this herself. At least I know she's aware.

But I realized the biggest issue I personally had with my W was the hidden feeling that something was *off* in our relationship throughout years. It's hard to explain as I cannot pinpoint exactly on one thing. From vacations to money, investment ideas, life, friends, relatives, job, parenting, surroundings, future - everything felt *strange*. I didn't say bad but strange - that's how my gut interpreted it. Some was for the better, but much more for the worse or just more demanding than necessary. I suffered quietly a lot because of that. It wasn't always there but was chronic.

Me, as a lifelong caretaker, did whatever was needed for us as a family to live a normal life and appear 'normal' to the outside world. This book made me realize how much caretakers do that, up to the very extreme level. Fortunately, I wasn't extreme and W, being a high-functioning, was quite active. But still I paid a hefty price in the end.
There was a time when I was doing this easier and in-sync with my W or vice versa. That period was always the best. But alas, it didn't last (surprise surprise). Those were just moments, brief periods of our lives, rather than a stable, default behaviour. Up to this day when I sense it in my gut, my hope goes through the roof. But I learned it's only temporary. I spent hours, days and months explaining and being heard, thinking we'd reach something, but it's funny how nothing really mattered.

I started being sad, bitter even hopeless around couples that talk to each other normally about usual subjects, with silent respect. Their problems, issues, parenting and lives all sound strangely normal. No fuss, no big deal. Being awkward and sloppy is all ok. They just shrug and move on. Why I couldn't live like that? Why I had to fight or do the long way to get to that point?

In the last couple of years, when I was talking to friends or relatives I noticed my behaviour changed when W appeared there. I kind of went into special needs mode, worrying how she would react - nicely and welcoming or being irritated and distant by something? I was heavily involved around her emotions - if she was great, I felt even better. If she felt miserable, I was even worse in a desperate try to fix. This was a big lesson to (un)learn.

[Riv3rW0lf]

The impending doom... Yes, my BPD mother wrote me, after the last outbursts how she knew it would go wrong but was too scared to act and make things better, that she knew she would lose me but she never expected it to go this far, never expected me from taking her grandchildren away from her. The impending doom... Without realizing it was a self-fulfilled prophecy, that it happened because of her abuse, screaming, raging, silent treatments, clingyness. BPD is a tragedy, one they create for themselves...

However, I have an issue with narcissism being described as easier to live with... I was always under the impression that narcissists would put you down to make themselves feel better. They will send mixed signals to keep you guessing, erode your self-esteem over time... Make you feel small so that they can be better. They will be critical and hard to please. They are abusive too, but more sneaky in their abuse?

I suspect my brother is a communal narcissist now. He is fun to be around, but both his children look miserable, far too serious and mature for their age, with a sad look in their eyes. He told me once he didn't feel connected to them, that he didn't really care? He pushes his son to perform in gymnastic, but it's about him, because when I asked him how his son felt about it, if he enjoyed it, or did he feel under pressure, etc. ...he couldn't answer me. He didnt know. He cannot relate emotionally to others and I'm pretty sure that while he is ok with me, he can be someone else behind closed door... I have, after all, seen him abuse my other brother almost all his life. And he still baits him... A narcissist generally has scapegoats they abuse.

Egocentrism though could be confused with narcissism, but people that are very egocentrist are safe to be around. They want validation, they talk a lot about themselves but they won't put you down. They want to talk about what makes THEM feel good, they don't listen very well, but they can be nice for the sake of being nice... I prefer to say my father is egocentrist than narcissist, because he doesn't abuse.. it's just that whenever things starts to get emotionally charged, or when he goes through an emotion and doesn't know how to deal with, he exits the discussion or starts talking about himself. Even feeling proud will make him uncomfortable, and he brings back the subject to something else. Not because he isn't proud of me, say, bit because feeling proud, for him, is emotionally charged with pain because of how he was raised.

He is emotionally immature and protects himself with egocentrism, but he isn't a narcissist. He never abuses anyone. And I also have those memories where he did something special for me... And it truly was for me. It wasn't for supply. It felt genuine.

I was under the impression true narcissists are prone to abuse? And so... Wouldn't be easier necessarily to live with.

It is a spectrum but seeing the cultural connotations to narcissism now and borderline... I prefer to say someone is egocentrist, or C-PTSD (emotionnally dysregulated), because those labels are still "safe", whereas NPD and BPD are intrinsically linked to abuse in most people's mind...

[BKDamon]

I prefer to say someone is egocentrist, or C-PTSD (emotionnally dysregulated), because those labels are still "safe", whereas NPD and BPD are intrinsically linked to abuse in most people's mind...

I get your point. I labeled the persons I mentioned as narcissists because that’s how they’re often described, but I guess it’s mainly because of their HUGE ego. I have been sufficiently close to them to witness that their egocentrism has had negative impacts on some members of their family and subordinates. But I have never witnessed any obvious abuse on their part. So I probably have used the term "narcissist" a bit too carelessly, thanks for your input.

BPD is a tragedy, one they create for themselves...

yes, and sadly for those who care for them. A compulsion towards tragedy that escapes reason and common sense. Even after leaving my xBPDw, I still have to find ways to handle the drama for me and my kids. That’s why I was interested in Manic Miner’s review in the first place. And why this site is so important!

[salvyrn]

I just finished reading this and it was almost horrifying how closely it hit. In therapy a big thing I've constantly said is "I don't really know what I want, or what my needs are" and my jaw dropped when I read it in the book.

I've been writing down thoughts to keep everything in order and there's been countless feelings of having my identity or my basic self being wiped away to cater to her. We listen to her music, watch her shows, listen to her books to fall asleep (I'm sick to death of Harry Potter), her comfort and needs come before mine, etc. I worry about money but that apparently is all I care about, meanwhile she's ordered pad thai from a nearby restaurant for the 3rd time this week and so on. Anyways.

It also made me realize that my parents had this exact same setup which is probably how I ended up here. My mom is a caretaker to my somewhat narcissistic father and my mentally handicapped brother, so I probably saw that as normal. Now I know a relationship is supposed to be balanced and I had something obscenely unhealthy as my defacto relationship standard as a kid. Great book, would recommend. And a special thanks to this forum for existing, it's definitely helped shed light on this very unhealthy relationship.

[Manic Miner]

I want to add this line that got my attention from this book:

The emotions of BP/NPs are indescribably intense, similar to those of an
infant. Their total focus is—and always will be—on making themselves
feel better.

If there's anything about my W that somehow lingered throughout our relationship, even before marriage and in many good periods, was the constant fear or anxiety about *something*. She was never at peace with herself, there was always something she was "working on", worried, afraid or feared.

Few days ago I found a letter she wrote me after one argument. She wrote about us. She was incredibly empathetic and showed that she genuinely cared about me, offering hope and solutions. But she also mentioned herself, how she "finally has to do what she must to be herself at her best". Date signed was February 2003. Yes, almost 20 years ago. Same lines she wrote last year in her note "this year will be the year where I will be myself again!"

I'm still puzzled how their condition prevents them to see all sides and bigger picture, even when they are actively searching, but running in circles in a find of solution.

Maybe another line explains this as well:

Whatever feelings BP/NPs are experiencing are absolute facts to them, and
they believe that these feelings are caused by someone else.

[LifewithEase]

Manic Miner,

Good highlights... I'm so fascinated by the why/how come, what makes them tick.

"...always something she was "working on", worried, afraid or feared." My wife's shame and anxiety drive all the actions and priorities in our family.

Thanks for starting a great discussion thread.

[zachira]

I read this book a couple of years ago. This thread is helpful in making me realize it is now time to reread this book, as I have come a long ways in dealing with my codpendency/caretaking of people with BPD and/or NPD, and still have lots more work to do on being a healthier person for others to be around.

[ortac77]

As this book said:
Codependent behaviors could be described quite similarly to those that Caretakers use. However, most Caretakers take on this role almost exclusively inside the family and primarily only with the borderline or narcissist. Often Caretakers are very independent, good decision makers, competent, and capable on their own when not in a relationship with a borderline or narcissist. It is almost as if the Caretaker lives in two different worlds with two different sets of behaviors, rules, and expectations, one set with the BP/NP and another with everyone else.

I have just read this thread but that paragraph really stood out for me. I have often questioned whether I am co-dependent, indeed having raised it with a therapist when I was going through a bad patch a couple of years ago he certainly did not think I was. All of my relationships outside of the one with my pwBPD are healthy.

Yes I can see within my relationship I am a 'caretaker' and thus in the relationship am the Rescuer, Antagonist and Victim according to the situation and the thoughts (=Facts) to the person with BPD.

Thanks for sharing and something for me to work on

[LifewithEase]

Ortac77

This passage also stands out for me.

It reminds me that the world outside of the BPD mind is different.

When uBPDw is mean with words, including false narratives and assigning negative opinions to outside relationships ("your family thinks you're a joke; it's surprising you won an employee award, I thought people at work are awkward around you...") I remind myself that it is actually the opposite.