Karpman drama triangle: resources for children?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi all,

I've found it helpful to be able to see patterns of drama triangles and I'd like to introduce my children to this too. Does anyone know of any good resources to help children/pre-teens identify and, hopefully, not participate in drama triangles?

Thanks,
zondolit

[zondolit]

Hi all,

I've found it helpful to be able to see patterns of drama triangles and I'd like to introduce my children to this too. Does anyone know of any good resources to help children/pre-teens identify and, hopefully, not participate in drama triangles?

Thanks,
zondolit

[kells76]

Hi zondolit, good question. I've also wondered about good resources for kids about dysfunctional behaviors -- especially resources that don't mention BPD specifically, as that would probably get back to their mom.

So far I have been able to get decent references just from the stuff they watch and read. When they were younger, the My Little Pony reboot actually had some solid episodes -- one was essentially about projection/catastrophizing and "believing your own narrative" about others. Graphic novels/comic books have also had some fodder for discussion. Wish I remembered the name, but SD16 got one at the library a year or so ago that perfectly encapsulated the "I hate you/don't leave me/I'm breaking up with you/why did you think I was breaking up with you" dynamic. To be honest, it's not a book that I would have chosen to read, and it's not one I'd ever have wanted the kids to get, but one of the battles I've let go of is about what media comes in the house -- not that it's "anything goes", but I have had to adjust my threshold and radically accept that the kids read stuff that society thinks is fine but I would never have wanted in the home. Anyway, a plus side of that is I have started flipping through all the books they get at the library, just to see what the content is, and out of that I get some touchpoints for conversations about relationship dynamics.

They are also into some shows that I'd never voluntarily watch (just due to lack of interest), but they want to share with us, so we try to keep that door open so that we can see what they're taking in. My hope is that staying non-judgmental about their media interests means they'll keep showing us stuff, so they aren't keeping secrets.

Although I can't remember off the top of my head one specifically about the drama triangle dynamic, my sense is it shouldn't be hard to find something close, especially in any show or book about teen friends.

In terms of helping the kids see how not to participate, one approach is to depersonalize the conversation -- keep it about the characters in the book or show, and ask open-ended questions like "How does that seem to be working for them", "Now that she tried to rescue him from his bad feelings, what do you think will happen", "What do you think he's getting out of threatening to hurt himself", etc. You might find that laying a lot of non-personal groundwork first (to build the concept in their heads) can help in conversations down the road.

Can you remind me of your kids' ages? Ours are SD14 & SD16 (almost 17!). What are your kids reading/watching these days?

[zondolit]

kells,

That's a great idea to use the books and shows they are already into. I could do more of this.

I vaguely remember overhearing a My Little Pony episode a while back and being pleasantly surprised: My Little Pony is dealing with THAT? Who knew? 

I loved reading the Ramona books with my youngest child. I'd assumed they were dated but we loved them. They are so emotionally astute and deal with really normal but difficult issues like parents arguing, financial stress, sibling rivalry, embarrassment at school, dread.

My children are 8-12 years old. Currently my youngest is into Harry Potter and Shawn the Sheep and the older ones read lots of stuff: Ari, L'Engle, Lowry, Gary Paulson, Erdrich, Spinelli, DiCamillo, Sachar, Creech, etc. It is hard to keep them in books as they are voracious readers.

I rarely read the kids' books myself, although the older ones I read as a child. Now I have little interest in junior fiction, and I'm just going to listen to myself here and not feel guilty about it--but I could do a better job of asking them to talk about and reflect on what they are reading. I could start with modeling this by talking about the books I am reading.

That is great advice to depersonalize the conversation. Perfect.

[kells76]

Currently my youngest is into Harry Potter and Shawn the Sheep and the older ones read lots of stuff: Ari, L'Engle, Lowry, Gary Paulson, Erdrich, Spinelli, DiCamillo, Sachar, Creech, etc.

Ooh, they're into great stuff! Have they tried any Scott O'Dell (Island of the Blue Dolphins) or Lloyd Alexander (Chronicles of Prydain) yet?

Glad you and they are finding the Ramona books helpful. Everyday stuff can be an accessible doorway into those conversations -- it can be really basic like "what did you think when you read about Ramona pulling that girl's hair? I know I've felt that way sometimes, what about you?"

J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis can provide more ethically/morally specific content to discuss, along with being superb reads. Tolkien has been a favorite read-aloud -- even SD16 still loves hearing DH read his stuff.

It's OK to not be super interested in juvi fiction. The stuff that captivated me as a kid doesn't provide the same feel these days, which is fine. So, you can cut yourself some slack -- you don't have to read (or re-read) the entire books... one option would be to look up a "parent's summary" of the title to refresh your memory, so you could be like "Oh, you're reading True Confessions of Charlotte Doyle... is that the one where she stows away on a ship? Or does something different happen?" just to open the conversation. Kids love correcting when you're wrong  which gets them talking.

Depersonalizing the conversation will hopefully help you feel more relaxed, too 

[zondolit]

Yes, they've read O'Dell, Alexander, Tolkien, and CS Lewis. It's sort of a standing joke for teachers and librarians to try to recommend a book they've not read. . . I've tried to introduce them to some adult books that I think are appropriate for children--Dickens, for example--but they're not ready for those yet though some nonfiction like Malcolm Gladwell and Micheal Pollan they eat up.

[kells76]

Glad they've read all those great authors! I'll keep thinking about good recommendations. Oh, off the top of my head, stuff by Edith Nesbit -- "practical British children discover magical things in the early 20th century" is the basic vibe. I even went back and reread Five Children and It a few months ago, and it stood up well. Edward Eager took up her mantle in the mid-20th century, still fun.

The kids were ready for David Copperfield (as a read-aloud, with pauses for some explanation) at... 11 and 13, I think. So, audiobook or read aloud could be a way to go. We didn't do Oliver Twist when they were younger because it gets pretty dark at the end. They did OK with Great Expectations at 12 & 14 but it wasn't as fun as David Copperfield. Am trying Bleak House on them now (totally underrated, phenomenal book) but it's a harder sell for SD14 who has a more difficult time tracking/staying engaged.

David Copperfield was really, really good for talking about how people get "honeymoon phase-d" into relationships that aren't a good match. Also a sympathetic portrayal of people with disabilities. I agree with you that your 8YO may be a bit young to enjoy it as a book, as good as it is. The library might have a decent film adaptation (there may be one with Daniel Radcliff of Harry Potter movie fame) that could be more accessible for your younger kiddos.

Classic sci-fi might be an avenue worth exploring?

[Couscous]

Really the best thing you can do is to keep working on yourself so that you can model for them how to not participate in drama triangles. Kids learn this way of relating from their parents, and even when you become good at spotting drama triangles, staying off of them can be extremely challenging.

I have been heavily into learning about drama triangle dynamics for the past two years, and am even in Transactional Analysis therapy group, and yet when I watched this recent video the other week, I couldn't spot the drama at first and I had to think long and hard about how a drama free interation would have unfolded: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0b5oCWSBqU

[zondolit]

kells: David Copperfield is a great suggestion, and I'll find the Nesbit books, which I remember vaguely as a child.

Couscous: It seems to me that some drama triangles are easy to spot--or at least I'm really good at seeing them in my husband's family of origin!  Others are much more subtle, to the point where one might not actually find them dysfunctional. I watched the video you showed and my main thought is that my husband is a master of the six stages of game formulation--and I went along with it for a very long time.

[ForeverDad]

It seems to me that some drama triangles are easy to spot--or at least I'm really good at seeing them ... !  Others are much more subtle, to the point where one might not actually find them dysfunctional.

We are not assembly line robots made from the same molds.  People are, well, people.  We're all different, some obviously are more different than others.  And yes, while all families surely have some level of dysfunction, some families are way more obviously dysfunctional than others.

One way of viewing it is that normalcy is mid-range and abnormal (or disorderedness) is at either end of that range.  There's nothing wrong with being "a little this or a little that", the issue is when the conflict, demands and complaints rise into the "a lot this or a lot that".

[Couscous]

I watched the video you showed and my main thought is that my husband is a master of the six stages of game formulation--and I went along with it for a very long time.

Well, to be fair, you cannot play a game by yourself or engage in drama unless there is a willing participant willing to take the bait. I'm not sure if you've heard of the Compassion Triangle which is a theory that proposes that once someone enters the drama triangle they will be in all three roles at once, which I find extremely interesting. (See page six of this pdf: https://www.karpmandramatriangle.com/pdf/thenewdramatriangles.pdf.)

I'm curious about what you think would be a non-Rescuer response to the guy in the video when he said, "But didn't you love me; didn't you care about me?".