I'm back

[Patriot]

I participated in this forum possible 10 years ago.  I always appreciated the feedback, support & the ability to share my situation.  Unfortunately, but not surprisingly I’m back.  My original communication dealt with my UBPD XGF who I had a son with.  She filed custody papers when S was about 4 & after she had been absent from his life for a few years.  After a lengthy time, the judge throughout her case.  There is no current legal custody agreement. 

I learned to cope with her behavior.  Although very tiring, I learned that carefully & strategically communicating will reduce her perceived sense of blame & possible conflicts.  The books & resources listed in this forum can be very beneficial.  I've been successful with the sympathy, empathy & truth approach but unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be helping currently.  Sympathy & empathy are usually taken well.  However, truth is not. 

Not surprisingly, I am concerned about our now S14.  He demonstrates many similar BPD behaviors as his M.  His behavior is mostly directed at me.  He has become extremely verbally & physically abusive towards me.  He does not respect my boundaries & is unable to provide space when emotions are high.  He admits he knows he should provide me space but for whatever reason he cannot.  This may be a result of separation anxiety since his M is still in & out of his life.  I’m the main caregiver & he may feel safe with me.  He says he can’t control his behavior but will stop if anyone else comes around, for example, Grandmother.  He has just started seeing a T.  The positive side unlike his M is that S14 seems to have some insight that things aren’t “just right” & is currently willing to get help. 

His M is now going to work out of state for 4 months but still wants S14 to come over to her house under the responsibility of her S24 (previous marriage) & his partner.  I was a major caregiver with S24 for many years & have a good relationship with him.  However, it's not his responsibility to parent S14, nor do I think he is ready for the parenting & responsibilities that S14 needs.  I tried to strategically discuss this with M but she disagrees with my POV. I mentioned that it would be great if he could come over for “fun times” & that I would encourage them to come to get S14 to do fun activities.  I also mentioned that we could revisit a schedule when she comes back, to eliminate the fear I was going to take him away from her.  We have a verbal custody agreement every other week.

I have two questions for the forum.  First, any suggestions of what I should do while M is gone for the 4 months?  Second, how much do I communicate with T regarding M mental health history? She has had 1 suicide attempt, 1 serious threat & spent 30 days inpatient.  I’m unaware of M current condition.  M is aware & agreeable to S14 therapy but not involved, since I believe she thinks his behavior is mostly centered around me, which it is.  However, I believe T needs to know the complete family history in order to assist S14.  I’m an open book on my family history but M is not. 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[SaltyDawg]

There is no current legal custody agreement. 
That's good, keep it that way.


Sympathy & empathy are usually taken well.  However, truth is not. 
I am assuming that this is for the uBPDexgf?


Not surprisingly, I am concerned about our now S14.  He demonstrates many similar BPD behaviors as his M.  His behavior is mostly directed at me.  He has become extremely verbally & physically abusive towards me.  He does not respect my boundaries & is unable to provide space when emotions are high.  He admits he knows he should provide me space but for whatever reason he cannot.  This may be a result of separation anxiety since his M is still in & out of his life.  I’m the main caregiver & he may feel safe with me.  He says he can’t control his behavior but will stop if anyone else comes around, for example, Grandmother.  He has just started seeing a T.  The positive side unlike his M is that S14 seems to have some insight that things aren’t “just right” & is currently willing to get help. 

The age of culpability in most states is usually 13 or younger, so he can be charged [if you report him].  Be careful with T's as some are 'mandated reporters', find out the reporting requirements before doing full disclosure by asking the T directly - so T's know that there is an issue to address without having to report it.

My S11, is very similar.  We are still together as a family, as I fear that his M will take control and custody as her narrative, even though false, is more believable as she is the 'perfect church lady' whereas I am the merchant mariner 'sailor' who was absent a good portion due to my job requirements - I have collected enough evidence where that is unlikely to happen; however joint is most likely, so I am choosing to stay in at least until the children are 18 yo. for the children's protection (I also have a D16 who was hospitalized for diagnosed anorexia nervosa usually a symptom of something more serious)

The difference in my case is when my S11 has borderline-like rages and borderline-like splits, they last an average of 45 minutes (versus a few hours for his M), and when he is done having an episode, he realizes that what he did was wrong and apologizes for it, whereas my uBPDw will not, thinking that she is 100% right no matter how wrong she is. 

According to my Ts and our family T (formerly S11's individual T), it can be a case of 'monkey see, monkey do', or it could be something more.  The good thing is that mine is young enough where the damage can be reversed, and my W, his M, has become partially self-aware and is seeking T for her 'anger management' issues.  Anyone with mental health issues, when they lash out, will do so with those that they feel safe with, their favorite person.  So, even though it may not seem that way, you are the person he feels most safe with. 

You mention that you are the main caregiver.  I am assuming the secondary one is his M with whom you have an alternating weekly schedule?  Considering the severity of your S's behavior, and technically you have full custody as the judge threw out her petition, under the guidance of your T, his T, and possible legal counsel, you may want to modify the arrangement to 'supervised' visits.

Most mental heath care providers will not diagnose BPD in children as their brains are still developing until age 26 even though the traits are detectable as early as age 10.  So, you are right to be concerned about his behaviors; however, there is sufficient neuroplacticity in his brain that these behaviors can be reversed at this age with the proper treatment.


His M is now going to work out of state for 4 months but still wants S14 to come over to her house under the responsibility of her S24 (previous marriage) & his partner.  I was a major caregiver with S24 for many years & have a good relationship with him.  However, it's not his responsibility to parent S14, nor do I think he is ready for the parenting & responsibilities that S14 needs.  I tried to strategically discuss this with M but she disagrees with my POV. I mentioned that it would be great if he could come over for “fun times” & that I would encourage them to come to get S14 to do fun activities.  I also mentioned that we could revisit a schedule when she comes back, to eliminate the fear I was going to take him away from her.  We have a verbal custody agreement every other week.

Follow your 'gut' feeling on this.  Talk to your individual T on this.  It is his M's choice to work out of state?  Where is M's house?  Get legal advice on this too, since you have a 'verbal custody agreement'.  Is S24 gay [you mentioned 'partner']?  If so, gays have a tendency to overcompensate in generally positive ways which presents its own set of challenges to this dynamic which may increase your Sons trauma bond to M's extended family.


I have two questions for the forum.  First, any suggestions of what I should do while M is gone for the 4 months? 
Limit the visits, follow your 'gut'.  However, do seek additional opinions from your attorney, and your own individual therapist in addition to your son's T to make sure you are not following ANTs [automatic negative thoughts].


Second, how much do I communicate with T regarding M mental health history? She has had 1 suicide attempt, 1 serious threat & spent 30 days inpatient.  I’m unaware of M current condition.  M is aware & agreeable to S14 therapy but not involved, since I believe she thinks his behavior is mostly centered around me, which it is.  However, I believe T needs to know the complete family history in order to assist S14.  I’m an open book on my family history but M is not. 

The behavior issues are centered around you, because you are your son's favorite person, and he feels safe to lash out at you.  The cause of this behavior is most likely external and may be attributable to her behavior.

When talking to your son's T, I recommend FULL DISCLOSURE! 

Your son is still a minor, so you have a moral and legal obligation to protect him.  Make sure his T is familiar with your exgf's diagnosis [inpatient stays pretty much require a diagnosis for insurance purposes] the more information that his T has, the better it will be for your S.  My uBPDw has had 6 suicide attempts (+ more ideations), 5 domestic violence incidents [none witnessed by the children] and countless rages and splittings [some witnessed by the children, and they are 'afraid'].  Your son's T will likely be most concerned on the behaviors that your S has witnessed.  If you don't know what your S has witnessed when in his M's custody, that is an issue and needs to be resolved.

In order for your son's T to help him the best, son's T needs to know the FULL history, including anything that your S may have witnessed under your exGF's care.  If there are disturbing behaviors that have been witnessed, you need to modify the verbal custody arrangement to become more stringent under the guidance of your Son's T, your T, and legal guidance.  You want to break the generational chain of mental health issues - you have the ability to do this; however, it requires some really hard decisions on your part.  Use DBT 'wise mind' [link above under 'tools'] to make the right decision for your S and you.

Sorry that you are in this mess, just like I am in a different, but similar way.  I had no clue about BPD and the damage it can do until just recently [past June]; however, once I figured it out, I am taking proactive steps at correcting this with good results so far, it took about 2-3 months to see results on my D16, but it was immediate with my S11.

Good luck, and take care.

[Patriot]

SaltyDawg Thank you for your reply.  There is always a comfort to know that we are not alone in our experiences. 

Sympathy & empathy are usually taken well.  However, truth is not.
I am assuming that this is for the uBPDexgf? –
This is definitely true for uBPDexgf but also true for S14.  However, I believe his age is a factor and normal child development.  On the positive side, he has much more insight than his M has ever had.  However, I also believe this is very challenging for him since he is aware of his behavior but just doesn’t know how to control it
. 
My S11, is very similar.  We are still together as a family, as I fear that his M will take control and custody as her narrative, even though false, is more believable as she is the 'perfect church lady'
Sadly, I can relate to the “perfect church lady”  Most people would not believe what went on behind our closed doors.  She would never get family or friends too close to us in order to protect that persona. 

I have collected enough evidence where that is unlikely to happen; however joint is most likely, so I am choosing to stay in at least until the children are 18 yo. for the children's protection
Unfortunately, I agree with this as well, which is why I never filed custody papers, even though I had what I believe was enough evidence.  M filed for 100% custody but the judge eventually through her case out for lack of attention to the case and not showing up for court.  I can only imagine how challenging it is to be in your household under those circumstances. 

The difference in my case is when my S11 has borderline-like rages and borderline-like splits, they last an average of 45 minutes (versus a few hours for his M), and when he is done having an episode, he realizes that what he did was wrong and apologizes for it, whereas my uBPDw will not, thinking that she is 100% right no matter how wrong she is.
I feel this is very positive since my S14 does the same.  He just apologized to me for his behavior the last month and was sorry that acted the way he did.  M would have never done this.  As challenging as it may be for us, this should provide us a lot of hope for a brighter future and that maybe our influence is helping them. 

Talk to your individual T on this.  It is his M's choice to work out of state?  Where is M's house?  Get legal advice on this too, since you have a 'verbal custody agreement'.  Is S24 gay [you mentioned 'partner']?  If so, gays have a tendency to overcompensate in generally positive ways which presents its own set of challenges to this dynamic which may increase your Sons trauma bond to M's extended family.
I don’t know her complete situation but do believe it is her choice to work out of state.  She is not working for one company that sends her out of state.  She choices jobs throughout the country and then travels to them.  Her S24 is gay and has not ever had the responsibility of children.  Her home residence is only a few miles from my home.

When talking to your son's T, I recommend FULL DISCLOSURE!
Thank you, I will do this.  I was trying to provide the mother an opportunity to provide full disclosure herself.  However, that doesn’t look like it will happen.

If you don't know what your S has witnessed when in his M's custody, that is an issue and needs to be resolved.
This is the scary part since I’m not sure what he has witnessed.  I can only speculate based on some of his comments.  However, he doesn’t elaborate too much.  Hopefully, the T can assist with this.

Thank you so much for your time in responding.  I truly appreciate your comments and insight.  It can be extremely challenging and if I hadn’t already gone through this with M several years ago it would be even harder.   

[Turkish]

Custody, implicit or explicit, doesn't apply to his uncle. Your son needs to stay with one of his parents, who also have legal and medical decision making capability as well as legal responsibility.

Hard no.

[Couscous]

Custody, implicit or explicit, doesn't apply to his uncle. Your son needs to stay with one of his parents, who also have legal and medical decision making capability as well as legal responsibility.

Hard no.

Agree with this. I would suggest a gentle, yet very firm no, (without JADEing) not unlike like how you would set a limit with a two year old: "Oh sweetie, this really is hard for you isn't it? I really can see that and I am still not willing to let you have that cookie before dinner". You could even rehearse what you want to say ahead of time in front of mirror if the thought of doing this fills you with dread. Best of luck to you.

[SaltyDawg]

This is definitely true for uBPDexgf but also true for S14.  However, I believe his age is a factor and normal child development.  On the positive side, he has much more insight than his M has ever had.  However, I also believe this is very challenging for him since he is aware of his behavior but just doesn’t know how to control it
His age is most likely a factor, rebellious teen years.  However, hitting, and raging is not acceptable at any age.  He is beyond the age of culpability in most locales [10-13 in most states], and can be charged for hitting someone.

A good therapist, can guide him to control his emotions before it comes to this point.  The key is to diffuse the anger, prior to it escalating beyond the point of no return.  Also does his rage starts of slowly and builds to a rage over a period of several minutes, or is it 0-100 in under a second, or a few seconds?  If it is under 1 or 2 seconds, this is a warning sign; however, if it takes longer, it can be managed.  My S11, usually gets frustrated over a period of a few minutes, and if he can recognize it, he has tools to calm him self down [self-soothing tools] when he knows he is getting frustrated. 

It used to be where my wife would rage in under a second.  I don't know what her T did, but she can now catch herself about to rage in about half a second, it was impressive to watch the first time she did this in November, where she would tense up, and then relax inside of a second.


Most people would not believe what went on behind our closed doors.  She would never get family or friends too close to us in order to protect that persona. 
My uBPDw would not limit friends.  So, when my wife became triggered, I usually had to tell them "it's that time of the month".  Usually PMS, was triggering, and I could tell when she would loose her 'poop' a few days later.  Other times it was when she is hangry, tired, or later on in the day.  Now that menopause has kicked in [medically], it is harder to tell when she will become triggered.


Unfortunately, I agree with this as well, which is why I never filed custody papers, even though I had what I believe was enough evidence.  M filed for 100% custody but the judge eventually through her case out for lack of attention to the case and not showing up for court.  I can only imagine how challenging it is to be in your household under those circumstances.
It can be challenging when she loses her 'poop' and rages or splits.  However, it is getting better with the tool(s) that her individual T is giving her.



I feel this is very positive since my S14 does the same.  He just apologized to me for his behavior the last month and was sorry that acted the way he did.  M would have never done this.  As challenging as it may be for us, this should provide us a lot of hope for a brighter future and that maybe our influence is helping them.
I would agree with your assessment.  With her moving out of state, it gives you a good opportunity to limit her custody, check with your attorney on this one.  I believe the less he is exposed to negative behavior, the better.


She choices jobs throughout the country and then travels to them.  Her S24 is gay and has not ever had the responsibility of children.  Her home residence is only a few miles from my home.
Again, leverage the fact that she is moving out of state, to make a more stringent custody arrangement.  S24, also living under the same roof as M, he has a higher likelihood of having his own emotional issues [this is a statistical guess where it is 5x as likely].  Also, as he has no experience, I would be very leery and support the others that have expressed an emphatic 'no' for allowing it.


Thank you, I will do this.  I was trying to provide the mother an opportunity to provide full disclosure herself.  However, that doesn’t look like it will happen.
Give his M the invite to do this, preferably in a text message or e-mail [so you can document it]; however, do be very careful how you word it, as anything you say can be used against you in a court...

I would like to add when I figured it out back in June, I shared it with S10 (at the time) T back in July when I first figured it out.  We shifted gears from my wife's narrative, to my new found one of BPD, and more progress on his behavior was made in the following two month period than the previous two years combined -- that is very telling.  It also gave him tools on how to manage when the parent loses their poop, I also worked with S11 with tools to limit the amount of interaction between him and his M. 


This is the scary part since I’m not sure what he has witnessed.  I can only speculate based on some of his comments.  However, he doesn’t elaborate too much.  Hopefully, the T can assist with this.
Most definitely let the T work on this.  Also, if don't have a T for yourself, I would suggesting getting one there too.

I have 4 T's working on this.  My individual T, Her individual T, our couple's T, and our family T [was S11's individual T], I also have a life coach/friend too that is in a similar situation, and that is helping too. 


Thank you so much for your time in responding.  I truly appreciate your comments and insight.  It can be extremely challenging and if I hadn’t already gone through this with M several years ago it would be even harder.
You are welcome, I've been there, and I still am there.  I am sharing what I have learned and observed to make this better, as I have a moral and legal responsibility to raise our children the best I can, and I am sharing so others can be helped out too.  Now that I am pretty sure of what wife has, as my previous T (who had a PhD in psychology, unrelated to BPD) made the astute observation based on my description of the relationship.  He knew he was in above his head; however, he was able to find me a better T where the majority [like 80%] of her clients either are borderlines or the significant other of one.

Her biggest tip is that you need to speak to them with authority / sternly, [like you would a 2-5 year old child, as that is their emotional level].  Make sure you set up and maintain the boundaries with love.  My pwBPD, violated boundaries twice in the past 3 weeks, so I made it clear in the context of couple's counseling that this was unacceptable behavior.  She is a little miffed at that, but that is how the cookie crumbles if she loses her 'poop'.  I will no longer tolerate any form of abuse whether it is physical, emotional, and/or verbal.