BPD in court

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

If by shear miracle you can prove your spouse has BPD in court does that help with your case to get more than 50/50 custody of the kids?

[Husband2014]

If by shear miracle you can prove your spouse has BPD in court does that help with your case to get more than 50/50 custody of the kids?

[Turkish]

From what I've seen here over the years, no. Focus on the behaviors that might be of concern instead. You couldn't "prove" it from your side anyway.

What concerns do you have where you might be able to be granted majority custody?

[ForeverDad]

Sadly, I have to agree.  My court and even the lawyers studiously ignored my my comments on then separated spouse's mental state.  Though my lawyer sometimes said she was crazy, I was told that a diagnosis of Borderline PD did not prove a reason to limit her parenting or increase mine.  The collective wisdom then and now is to focus on documenting poor custodial and parenting behavior, over time.  Although several years later one court official said she would benefit from counseling, it was never ordered.  To date she still has not been diagnosed, as far as I know.

My lawyer told me that the court did not view me as an authority qualified to assess a person's mental state, I had not been trained as a mental health professional and even if I had then my conclusions as an interested party would have disqualified me.  This despite me having lived with her over a decade.  This is the reason why a doctor shouldn't treat his own family, nor a lawyer defend his own family.  As I understand it.

Add to that the court's inclination to ignore the "bickering" of separated couples.  I was told by my attorney, here and in literature that court expects emotions to run high during a divorce and ignores it hoping it will fade and not be a persistent pattern.  Probably it does in 85-90 percent of cases.  We may feel that's not going to happen in our case, but events during the passage of time seems to be a common answer to that typical expectation of reasonably normal behavior.

BPD and other PDs can be impacting the individual, spouse and children to varying extents and across a broad range... from slight to severe.  I think the word is actionable.  However, even if slight, such a diagnosis can and should be another bit of documentation which can accumulate and work in your favor.  Just don't depend overmuch merely on a diagnosis.

Sometimes court is unpredictable.  You may get traction with a BPD diagnosis, and you're welcome to try to leverage that too, but however worthy it is to try it may still be a long shot.

[Husband2014]

So I have 2-3 therapists who have seen her and all said she has BPD so I wasn’t counting on my word in court.

My biggest concern is what she will tell the kids about me and my family if/once I give her the papers. There is no low she won’t go to and the kids are young and easily malleable.

The other concern is her inability to get along with anyone over a period of time so if the kids are with her 50/50 she can just keep them locked up at home without socializing and listen to her sorry stories about how everyone hates her and that’s not healthy.

Lastly I work and she’s home and if I need to move for a job outside of 50 miles it can  be another issue I’m worried about.

[zachira]

You are right to be concerned about your children being easily malleable and negatively influenced in their relationship with you by what their mother does. I recommend reading the book "Divorce Poison" on this subject.

[ForeverDad]

If you can get the therapists to support your claim for substantial parenting, then great.  Some states default to equal time but others such as mine (15 years ago, not sure today) are more than willing to default to mother being the primary parent.

While yes you're concerned about a disordered mother having 50% time with your young children, be relieved that you would also have 50% time with your children.

Are you aware that IRS usually defaults to the parent with majority time as being their view of residential parent?  (As I recall my tax forms asked how many months [i[]of overnights[/i] with me.)  Be prepared with Form 8332 (if applicable, ask attorney) so there are no surprises when filing taxes.  Who gets child deductions and credits, whether on alternate years, etc, does make a financial difference.

As noted above, how many overnights you get does make a difference.

My Custody Evaluator and many experts agree that frequent exchange is better.  My first wish was for us to do alternate weeks since that would reduce our usual conflict during exchanges.  The CE said No, better for a 2/2/3 (or 2/2/5/5 across two weeks).  Younger children do better with frequent exchanges.

That 2/2/3 schedule is Mon-Tue overnights with one parent, Wed-Thu overnights with the other parent and Fri-Sat-Sun alternating between each parent.  Essentially they each get a couple weeknights and and they get alternating long weekends.

Then be sure to log or journal whenever she gives up any of her time.  You don't have to park them with her while you work since school, preschool and daycare are also be satisfactory to the courts and agencies.  That also is great for the kids to socialize with other children which they may not get if you agree to let her park them at home with her.

[scraps66]

If the BP was diagnosed via psychological evaluation, which may or may not be possible based on the skill of the tester.  In my eval report there was a statement, something like, "the test results show that Mr. Scraps shows nothing that would adversely effect his ability to parent his children."  It would then be up to the Master/Judge to react to such a statement if the reverse is reported about the BP.  This is where the potential bias and/or incompetence in the courthouse could influence this outcome.  Have heard of this scenario where all the evidence was ignored.  As said, you still need to deal with the behaviors.

[scraps66]

PS I waivering on what level of custody to ask for, I'd opt for full legal and physical custody if you can swing it.  You may end up with something lesser, but the odds are better that all the cards would be put on the table and you'd wind up with a better situation.  My opinion based on my own experience.  I demanded 50/50 custody, got that easily.  But it's been an uphill battle since with uNPBPDexw playing all kinds of games, obstructing, interfering, alienating, etc.  Now two kids self-medicating by vaping and marijuana use.  A big hole in my case was ex's successful resistance to being psychologically evaluated.  I got mine, by the best forensic psych in the area.  She ended up with a bogus evaluation from the worst psych in the area.  This was at the end of our 4yr divorce and I was hemorrhaging cash so didn't pursue. 

If I had started out demanding full custody all of this stuff would have been correctly completed and hopefully used during custody proceedings.  Instead I became a victim of the court's incompetence.

[engiebpd]

Unsure what state you're in, but when I read the book "Split" it said that these situations are very unlikely in the eyes of the court.

Unlikely as in that they're dealing with a mental illness that can't truly br determined.   Also, they are not skilled in assessing these things.  You'd have to spend a lot of $ to get a psych or therapist to come out and say these things.

My ex wife is taking pills for being bipolar as our counselor and psychiatrist realizes she was at least going through mania.  I told my family attorney this, and they said it'll be too risky still to go full on war about this.  We would be creating and advsery if we went this route and at the end of it, I may just get a little more than 50/50.

My best bet is to just be cool and be amicable with her to get an uncontested 50/50.   Unless she is going into absolute war with you and is forcing you to pay for attorney fees, then I would not do it.  Your best way to play your cards is to just be amicable.   But also be many steps ahead in case she goes full on nuclear war with you.   Then you can decide to spend the $ to play this bpd card.

[Turkish]

9 years out... my ex told our almost D11 that family lore tells that a great great grandpa was basically a Skinwalker. My ex is a magical thinker. Parental alienation aside, i told our D that there's no such thing as werewolves. I talked to my ex about this and she was adamant about her beliefs 

Get at least joint custody and on your time you can deprogram, mostly by providing a safe space of normality.

[scraps66]

My best bet is to just be cool and be amicable with her to get an uncontested 50/50.   Unless she is going into absolute war with you and is forcing you to pay for attorney fees, then I would not do it.  Your best way to play your cards is to just be amicable.   But also be many steps ahead in case she goes full on nuclear war with you.   Then you can decide to spend the $ to play this bpd card.

All cases are different.  My uNPDBPDexw is high IQ high functioning.  This was similar advice that i was given by my first lawyer.  Just sit and wait after I served her papers.  Eventually this got me booted out of my own house, me living elsewhere and paying the mortgage for 19 months.  At that point I lost control and had to follow her every move and she drug the case out for 4 years and tons of $$$$.

So being cool may be OK, but make sure you're cool and in the lead with control over the pace of the case.

[Amina]

I actually had threads of abusive and threatening text messages and emails from my ex-husband, documents of my physical abuse, and several orders of protection that allowed me to win full custody of my dog in our divorce, and I did not have a lawyer. I also keep some correspondence and documents via email of events by re-counting situations with objectivity and accuracy both for myself, but certainly (and hopefully never again would I have to) could be used to prove someone's emotional instability in court.  They don't have to have a diagnosis, and the court won't diagnosis them, but they will look at documented evidence of abuse.

I will also say that if someone is primarily NPD it is probably more difficult to have evidence, as they are less prone to emotional outbursts, and controlled, and want/push you to (understable and appropriate) anger.  Someone primarily BPD/emotionally unstable cannot control outbursts and abuse and will continue to have them despite previous consequences, and you can document and keep records.

[zachira]

My experience with dealing with a difficult legal case and having to hire a lawyer involved my NPD sister. One of the books that helped me the most was Bill Eddy's about divorcing a person with NPD or BPD. I learned I had to be proactive and think about all the possible scenarios that could happen instead of waiting for what my NPD sister would do next to harm me. I would say that it is very important to stay aware of the fact that you will not be able to prepare for all of the possible evil things your children's mother could do to harm you and your children because you are not the kind of person she is. I was beyond shocked when my sister hired someone to harass me on the phone on a daily basis in addition to stealing large amounts of money through fraud and all the people she enlisted in her smear campaign. It does seem with disordered people with BPD and/or NPD that they function in just the opposite ways of a normal person. We normal people are looking for solutions and peace. Disordered people seem to thrive on taking revenge and creating chaos especially when they feel they are being discarded like in a divorce. I recommend that you read other threads on this site by other members who have been in similar situations like yours while continuing to learn all you can about the steps to take to protect your children when in the process of divorcing a spouse with BPD and working out the best possible custody arrangement for your children and your wellbeing. You are doing a courageous and loving job in trying to find out what steps to take to help your children. Your children are lucky to have you.

[Husband2014]

My heart aches for my kids daily. I can walk out if a marriage but they can never not have a crazy mother.  Maybe karma is catching to me but what did they do to deserve this is what eats at me every minute.

[Turkish]

My heart aches for my kids daily. I can walk out if a marriage but they can never not have a crazy mother.  Maybe karma is catching to me but what did they do to deserve this is what eats at me every minute.

You're hurting and likely angry now, but it will get better after you settle. I was told this here, basically, 9 years ago and I didn't believe it, but it's true.

As was said in the first Crow movie, "mother is the name for God on the lips and hearts of all children." As much as it sux, you'll be tied to her forever, especially the next decade during schooling. She's their mother, such as she is, and you're their father, as you are.

A friend 11 years older than me went though this with a BPD like exW who cheated on him and he told me the same. I didn't like what he told me, but he and his kids (now in their 20s) survived. They divorced when their kids were under 10. Play the long game. Focus on you and your progeny.

[Amina]

I send my best to everyone with children that has a spouse that is untreated emotionally unstable and/or narcissistic. I am so grateful I never had children with a partner or spouse like this, and having to fight for full custody of my dog in divorce court was stressful, and terrifying.  The thought of having to see an abusive, psychopathic ex every week and handing over my dog to them is terrifying, and sometimes justice is served, but often we have no answer for someone that should be digging their own grave with severely abusive behaviors, but they continue to somehow function, never getting diagnosed or treatment.

[Husband2014]

For those of you who did the 50/50 custody. Did your spouse self destruct enough over time where you were able to get more custody over time?

[Turkish]

For those of you who did the 50/50 custody. Did your spouse self destruct enough over time where you were able to get more custody over time?

I was a day from reporting her for exposing the kids to domestic violence between her and her husband. Who knows how that would have played out? She was seeing her therapist the next day and little D was seeing hers the day after that. She told both. Despite being mandated reporters, there were no repercussions. Who knows how it would have turned out of CPS had gotten involved?

[ForeverDad]

My ex took advantage of very favorable temp orders and drew out the divorce to almost two years.  For some reason the court (and lawyers too) were not inclined to fix the glaring issues, presumably because they believed a temp order was "only temporary".

I started with alternate weekends, walked out with 50/50 two years later.  (Well, I maneuvered things so it wasn't totally equal.  I was smart to use leverage to become the residential parent for school purposes.)  Another couple years I got full custody but the GAL said she needed to keep 50/50 time so she could get child support.  Another few years and I was back again and got majority time - but only during the school year.  Evidently the court felt that was sufficient even though some of the incidents were in the summer too.

It wasn't fast, but it did get done.  Courts seem to think gradual fixes are better.  My lawyer said it was to avoid my child from getting shocked.  I said, What if going so slow was worse on my kid?  All in all, it was 8 years from separation to that last court appearance.  Once I had majority time we never went back to court again.

I'm not saying you could get eventual custody or majority time.  But it's possible, some here have.  I think that last two day court hearing finally was enough that my ex realized the court didn't want to see her again.

Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win. — Jonathan Kozol

[zachira]

As heartbreaking and frustrating it is to have a spouse with BPD and worrying about how your children's mother's behaviors impact your children and you, you are making big differences in your children's wellbeing by getting what is going on and doing everything you can to find out how to best help your children. What is truly permanent damage to the children is to have two disordered parents. It is unfortunately far too common for one spouse to enable the disordered spouse at the expense of the children's longterm wellbeing. I grew up with a mother with BPD. After an argument with my BPD mother when I was a teenager, my father begged me to not upset her, as he said he had tried to get her to see a mental health professional and mom refused to go. I was a seriously disturbed teenager, and have spent my entire adult life dealing with healing from all the child abuse I suffered at the hands of a BPD mother and the ongoing abuse from a narcissistic family. The studies regarding a child recovering from abuse, show that the child can heal if one parent believes the child and supports the child in recovery. Keep documenting the behaviors of your children's mother that are destructive to your children's immediate and longterm wellbeing. A lawyer can tell you the best way to do this, and this type of information is likely available for free in different places on the internet. Know that special time spent with your children validating their feelings and enjoying who they are, will help your children to become healthy people in their own right. There are many adults who gave me just a few minutes of their time when I was a child, who were truly sorry for how badly my mother treated me, and in the long term have made it possible for me to face and deal with the ongoing abuses from a large extended narcissistic family. Quality time can matter more than quantity time with your children. I have memories from childhood and as a teenager of people looking terribly sad when they witnessed my BPD mother abusing me, and they did their best to be kind to me with the infrequent contacts they had with me. Whatever amount of custody you get, you will have the opportunity to have both quantity and quality time with your children. Clearly it is very distressing to know your children spend time with their mother in which you cannot protect them in the ways you would like to. In the time you spend with your children, you can teach them how to have their own hard wired internal emotional regulation that will allow them to develop separate healthy emotional systems from their mother and to not take on their mother's disturbing emotional regulations as their own.