My wife has undiagnosed BPD and I need help

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

My wife has BPD but isn't diagnosed and doesn't admit she has a problem. She has a pattern of violence, and I started staying with my parents about a month ago. I have 2 young children living at home with my wife. She won't let me see them without her present; the last time I saw them all together, she hit me, so I only want to see the kids on my own without her.

I've been educating myself on BPD and I have recently decided that I am going to file for divorce. I could use advice on:

- finding an attorney
- finding a therapist for me
- how to talk to the kids
- when and how to tell my wife that I am going to file for divorce
- how to be able to spend time with my kids on my own
- what else should I be doing/thinking about?

Thank you so much for anything you can offer.

[notacarguy]

My wife has BPD but isn't diagnosed and doesn't admit she has a problem. She has a pattern of violence, and I started staying with my parents about a month ago. I have 2 young children living at home with my wife. She won't let me see them without her present; the last time I saw them all together, she hit me, so I only want to see the kids on my own without her.

I've been educating myself on BPD and I have recently decided that I am going to file for divorce. I could use advice on:

- finding an attorney
- finding a therapist for me
- how to talk to the kids
- when and how to tell my wife that I am going to file for divorce
- how to be able to spend time with my kids on my own
- what else should I be doing/thinking about?

Thank you so much for anything you can offer.

[ForeverDad]

Welcome!   Please browse other posts by members who themselves were new here and ponder the responses, suggestions and strategies they received.

Your situation is not uncommon here.  It does appear you will divorce sooner or later, so it would be wise to get all your ducks in a row.  Have you read William Eddy's "Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder"?  It is to be read before you decide to divorce.  It describes the type of lawyer you need to hire, experienced and proactive.  It helps you to avoid the common mistakes and traps us novices encounter as we enter the bizarre world that is divorce court and the associated agencies that work with it.

Be aware that your spouse is already planning her strategy to become the primary parent and possible even have you relegated to a sometimes parent who is viewed as a danger to the children.  After all, why else would she act as though the children aren't safe with you unless she's there?

Years ago, I was there in your shoes too.  My then-spouse, once we were separated, acted as though she was afraid of me and went to court to get a protection order against me and included our preschooler in her petition.  Fortunately the CPS investigator had spoken with me (and probably done other research for all I know) and he stood up in court and stated they had "no concerns" about me.

Notice that she is the parent in possession of the children. At this point there's not much you can do to force equitable parenting.  Why?  I tried getting support from my area's police.  They told me they would not help me to see my preschooler - unless I had a court order in hand specifying access.  At the time I was waiting for the next court hearing, turned out I didn't see my son for 3 months.  My situation wasn't like yours, I knew that if I went to the door she'd call the police (and they assured me they would respond) and try to have me arrested for at least harassment and maybe worse.

At least you may get to see your children for now but the cost is she's posing as though you're suddenly (upon your departure from the marital home) a danger to the children.  She's probably going to claim in court that your visits need to be supervised visits, continuing the current theme that you can't be trusted with your own children now that you're separated.

If she does attempt that, you need to oppose agreeing to such undeserved limitations.  This is where you need an experienced and proactive lawyer promptly.  The longer this "you can only see the kids while I'm watching" pattern is in place, the more difficult it will be to get clear of the supervised control tactics.

Very important, never ever lose your temper with your spouse.  Even raising your voice (which she might record) could give her weak basis to claim she's afraid of you.  A nice mental image to have is to imagine the judge is looking over your shoulder, that should help you to maintain your equilibrium.  You never know what she might do to make you look worse than her.  She may purposely goad you into overreacting or saying something in anger.

Others will soon chime in on your other questions.  I will add that you don't inform your spouse you'll be divorcing until you have all your ducks in a row.  That means you have a lawyer and have strategies for how it all will be done with the least damage to you.  Otherwise she will find ways to use your notice (saying you will divorce) against you to sabotage your intentions.

[notacarguy]

Thank you @ForeverDad! I really appreciate your advice; this is super helpful to me.

I have read Splitting! And I'm using it as my guide to get things lined up before telling her that I am going to file for divorce. I started interviewing attorneys last week and hope to make a decision this week. I feel a sense of urgency to get started on the process since she is now controlling when I see the kids, and b/c I know it's going to be a long process.

I'm grateful that I found this site; thank you!

[livednlearned]

Here's some helpful guidance about finding a good attorney: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=270440.msg12566140#msg12566140

Take time to plan. Being 10 steps ahead can go a long way to stabilizing your family (if it's safe to do so).

Document everything you can, even if it's a Google calendar with what happened that day. I created a special Google calendar and listed things that happened. When you need to, you can print it out in agenda view and see the patterns a bit more clearly.

Read Bill Eddy's Don't Alienate the Kids: Raising Emotionally Resilient Kids When a Parent has BPD/NPD. Depending on what your wife is like, it might help to read Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison. It captures a bit more of the severe parental alienation tactics that go on but even for the less severe stuff there are helpful how-to's. Learning to counter alienation abuse is not intuitive and must be learned.

How old are the kids? What's your relationship with them like?

[ForeverDad]

Besides her potentially claiming you're a danger to the children (the only basis for her to seek supervised visitation) she might also claim you aren't an involved parent.  When you seek to visit them or get more time or without her unilaterally monitoring, do it in a method you can document such as texting, email, witnesses, etc.

You want documention that can be presented in court if necessary.  Hearsay such as "he always..." or "she always..." means little and is often ignored.  That is why your log, diary or calendar needs details, so you can be specific on events, when and where they occurred and not generalize.

Sadly, courts and the professionals around the divorce process do not care to seek a diagnosis.  Some here have reported prior hospitalizations have diagnosed mental health issues, but you can't count on it.  My phrase is that the professionals "studiously ignore" why there is conflict.  They accept there is bickering and conflict, and seem to be inclined to begin by viewing both of you as equally at fault.  Your task is to ensure you're eventually perceived as the parent who is not creating conflict, but rather the parent seeking practical solutions.

I separated back in 2005 when we didn't have smart phones so I recorded myself with digital voice recorders.  I didn't advertise it nor wave it in front of her (which doing so in themselves could have actually antagonized incidents) but she knew I could be using them, sometimes she even told me to go ahead and record her.  I was in and out of court even years after the divorce was final.  It was only at our last hearing that my lawyer had me present a few of my most recent recordings.  That was how I added majority time to the custody I'd previously sought and obtained.  Courts typically only deal with recent conflict, older stuff (beyond 6 months or so) is often considered legally 'stale', sort of water long since washed over the dam.

My court did order initial psych evals.  Mine was that I had anxiety. Hers, well, even now nearly two decades later I still don't even know whether she complied.  She got my results but I never got hers.  This is often where I rant that if you're both ordered to submit something then tell your lawyer to hold onto your information and simply notify the other lawyer that you're ready to exchange the results.  Doing that is Leverage but discussing that is for other posts.

Understand that psych evals are just overviews.  And they don't dig into each parent's parenting ability.  Later, often after a divorce is started, there is an in-depth Custody Evaluation.  You want to take great care that an excellent CE is selected, one both your lawyer and the court trusts.  A lot hangs in the balance.  You don't need just anyone who will take a year and $$$ to write a book.  My CE was an experienced child psychologist my court trusted implicitly and the initial report was less than a dozen pages but spot on. (And even he didn't offer a diagnosis.  He dealt more with "what is" and not so much "why".)

[notacarguy]

Here's some helpful guidance about finding a good attorney: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=270440.msg12566140#msg12566140

Take time to plan. Being 10 steps ahead can go a long way to stabilizing your family (if it's safe to do so).

Document everything you can, even if it's a Google calendar with what happened that day. I created a special Google calendar and listed things that happened. When you need to, you can print it out in agenda view and see the patterns a bit more clearly.

Read Bill Eddy's Don't Alienate the Kids: Raising Emotionally Resilient Kids When a Parent has BPD/NPD. Depending on what your wife is like, it might help to read Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison. It captures a bit more of the severe parental alienation tactics that go on but even for the less severe stuff there are helpful how-to's. Learning to counter alienation abuse is not intuitive and must be learned.

How old are the kids? What's your relationship with them like?

Thank you. I'm going to order those books. A calendar sounds like a good idea.

My son is 6 and my daughter is 9. Our relationships have always been very good. I've been close with them and have consistently spent time with them almost every day.  Until I recently starting requesting to see them without my wife; they are now telling me that they don't want to see me.

[notacarguy]

notacarguy, I replied to your other post.  Please refrain from telling her you plan to divorce.  Otherwise she may take other steps, beyond what she's already done, to sabotage you.  As you wrote, get your ducks in a row.

While you are supposed to share when trying to make a marriage work, once you've concluded it is failing and had failed, then you stop sharing all information.  Limit it to necessary financial matters and, of course, parenting information such as exchanges, their health, etc.

When it finally gets to court usually the first order of business is the court makes a "temp order" that includes a parenting schedule.  Know in advance she has already shown her true colors by trying to block regular contact and parenting with the children.  She may demand no visitation, supervised visitation or some other restrictions on parenting.  At that first hearing you will have little time to state your case, so you and your lawyer have to fight any restrictions to your parenting as unjustified by the facts.  Sitting back and letting it happen to you is NOT a strategy.  Being smartly proactive is far better than being passive.  (In my case, CPS investigated me and stated they had "no concerns" about me.)

Thanks ForeverDad. I haven't told her yet. I made a list of things to do before telling her (created while reading Splitting) and I am working through the list. From your experience, when is the right time to tell her?

Mod note: split from topic The defamation campaign has begun and it made me cold and merged here

[SinisterComplex]

Thanks ForeverDad. I haven't told her yet. I made a list of things to do before telling her (created while reading Splitting) and I am working through the list. From your experience, when is the right time to tell her?

So I'll provide some perspective here NACG...FD is spot on with how nice guy/gal personality types struggle with confrontation and conflict. Well I am more of the Blunt force trauma personality type. I relish confrontation and conflict only because it is necessary for growth and it is also best to set the boundary that you will be respected and you are not to be trifled with. There is a huge line that has to be followed though...Never be aggressive (your whiners, complainers, yellers, etc never get S done other than looking like entitled brats), but instead be assertive and resolute. In essence, you remain composed and keep control. The easiest way to accomplish that is to be firm and indifferent.

So for example, you are asking when the right time to tell her is? I would push back and say you are already know the answer...ASAP. Now, in saying that what you should do is prepare yourself emotionally and make sure it is what you want to do. How anyone feels or thinks as it pertains to your decision does not matter. You are doing it for YOU. You are stuck in that quagmire of where it is S or get off the pot time.

Now also keep in mind you have to make decision which will ultimately serve you the best and sometimes that means others are not going to be happy with it. Tough S . If they have a problem with it you have to approach it with a hey I am doing what I have to do and what is best for me and if you don't like it then go kick rocks!

Now, do I expect you to be able to have my personality and my mentality...of course not. I am only providing some perspective to help instill some fortitude in you and to empower YOU to do what is best for YOU and what is necessary. If you find yourself waffling because of fear and anxiety that is common, but the recipe to put fear and anxiety in its place is to just NIKE it!

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[ForeverDad]

How soon will your ducks (exit preparations) be put in a row?  You have to be prepared for literally anything... tears, begging to try again, rage, escalation to police involvement, etc.

Since you will probably need a lawyer for divorce, this is a good question for the lawyer.  Be aware lawyers may pooh-pooh your concerns of conflict and not realize how extreme acting-out disordered persons may overreact.  Some have even said to carry with you the emergency contact number of your lawyer to bail you out of jail.  Yes, your ex can blow up that bad and blame/frame it all on you to the point of calling the police!

Some here have let the process server deliver the divorce notice.  Others tried personal delivery or notification, hoping for calm.  Problem is, you can't predict how the news will be received.  Therefore it is recommended you do so in a neutral location (the privacy at home may enable overreactions or allegations you can't prove didn't happen) and have a trusted friend or relative nearby for support or rescue... probably both precautions.

[notacarguy]

So I'll provide some perspective here NACG...FD is spot on with how nice guy/gal personality types struggle with confrontation and conflict. Well I am more of the Blunt force trauma personality type. I relish confrontation and conflict only because it is necessary for growth and it is also best to set the boundary that you will be respected and you are not to be trifled with. There is a huge line that has to be followed though...Never be aggressive (your whiners, complainers, yellers, etc never get S done other than looking like entitled brats), but instead be assertive and resolute. In essence, you remain composed and keep control. The easiest way to accomplish that is to be firm and indifferent.

So for example, you are asking when the right time to tell her is? I would push back and say you are already know the answer...ASAP. Now, in saying that what you should do is prepare yourself emotionally and make sure it is what you want to do. How anyone feels or thinks as it pertains to your decision does not matter. You are doing it for YOU. You are stuck in that quagmire of where it is S or get off the pot time.

Now also keep in mind you have to make decision which will ultimately serve you the best and sometimes that means others are not going to be happy with it. Tough S . If they have a problem with it you have to approach it with a hey I am doing what I have to do and what is best for me and if you don't like it then go kick rocks!

Now, do I expect you to be able to have my personality and my mentality...of course not. I am only providing some perspective to help instill some fortitude in you and to empower YOU to do what is best for YOU and what is necessary. If you find yourself waffling because of fear and anxiety that is common, but the recipe to put fear and anxiety in its place is to just NIKE it!

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

SC, many thanks. I really appreciate this perspective. And I agree with you, I am making this decision because it is what is best for me, and I don't need to apologize to anyone for that. I did make the decision about 3-4 weeks ago and I haven't waffled at all; I know what I need to do and I've started getting things lined up.

I met with 2 attorney's yesterday that I really like. One has experience and knows about BPD, the other wasn't familiar, although she assured me she has handled many high-conflict cases. I'm thinking of going with the experience; he is more expensive, but my gut says it will be worth it.

I've got to make that decision and then get a few more things lined up and then I think I'm ready. I've been documenting conversations, violence, my attempts to see the kids and her rebuffs, etc. Financially, I can get us split up into separate accounts fairly quickly. I think I'm just about there and I am anxious to tell her and get moving!

[notacarguy]

How soon will your ducks (exit preparations) be put in a row?  You have to be prepared for literally anything... tears, begging to try again, rage, escalation to police involvement, etc.

Since you will probably need a lawyer for divorce, this is a good question for the lawyer.  Be aware lawyers may pooh-pooh your concerns of conflict and not realize how extreme acting-out disordered persons may overreact.  Some have even said to carry with you the emergency contact number of your lawyer to bail you out of jail.  Yes, your ex can blow up that bad and blame/frame it all on you to the point of calling the police!

Some here have let the process server deliver the divorce notice.  Others tried personal delivery or notification, hoping for calm.  Problem is, you can't predict how the news will be received.  Therefore it is recommended you do so in a neutral location (the privacy at home may enable overreactions or allegations you can't prove didn't happen) and have a trusted friend or relative nearby for support or rescue... probably both precautions.

Thank you. I've been thinking about this and I feel like I should tell her myself rather than having her served, although I do recognize the risks. Having someone close by is a good idea. Also, I have to figure out who will have the kids while this happens.

I haven't decided yet how to best do this, but I'm no longer spending time with her anywhere that isn't a public place so that there are other people and cameras around. I have told her I don't feel safe with her.

Yesterday she asked me to meet her sunday at a restaurant so we can develop a schedule for parenting. I agreed then she asked me to drive together to the restaurant...when I said I don't feel comfortable with that, she responded that I'm not allowed to pick the kids up for the day on Saturday unless I agree to drive together. So typical...I told her that is not what is best for the kids and stopped engaging.

We'll see what happens Saturday, but I am going to the house to pick them up so that at least the kids know I am trying and I document that I tried and she refused. She didn't want me to get the kids after school on Wednesday, but I forced the issue and got to spend 4 hours with my kids without her, so I am prepared to do the same thing tomorrow.

Thank you for all your help!

[livednlearned]

I've been thinking about this and I feel like I should tell her myself rather than having her served, although I do recognize the risks. Having someone close by is a good idea.

It's not unheard of here for pwBPD to be violent and then make false accusations that the other person was violent. It might be worth documenting your focus on having a neutral third party come along by sending emails, just in case you need them later.

"I'm concerned about my wife's response when I serve divorce papers. I thought about having her served given she's been violent with me but I'm concerned how it will impact the kids if they're with her at that time. Would you be willing to come with me and sit in the car? I'm arranging for someone to take care of the kids so I know they're ok but I also want to make sure I'm ok too. I think she'll be on better behavior if you're there and my goal is to help her stay grounded for when the kids return."

It's tricky making the case that someone is violent and then wandering into that violence without taking measures to protect yourself.

This is the kind of documentation that can help in our cases if it reaches that unfortunate point.

[ForeverDad]

At one time during my divorce I had three voice recorders (before today's multitasking cell phones) since they often filled up quickly and needed recharging.  Some are concerned whether it is proper to record.  My position was: (1) Others here have recorded and never faced severe consequences though a few times they were told to stop recording the kids and (2) Hey, I'm quietly recording myself to ensure I'm not saying anything too bad and if ex misbehaves oops that's on the ex.

My attorney never once voiced nor responded whether my ex had a Personality Disorder.  Neither did the court nor the other professionals involved.  They all avoided the terms like a plague.  (William Eddy writes that nearly all protracted conflict is due to acting-out PDs.)  They ignored the WHY and only dealt with the WHAT.  Court deals with documentation, evidence.  We do well to follow its lead.

However there were a few times my experienced lawyer exclaimed she was crazy, f-ing nuts, etc.  He gave me a break on costs, was somewhat proactive and so despite his reluctance to name the cause of our conflict he did well and I stuck with him during the two year divorce and six years post-divorce on custody issues.