Bpdw keeping the children from seeing my mother

[thankful person]

Hi all,

I’m a married lesbian with a dbpdw. We have 3 ivf children who are biologically hers but legally half mine. I have been on the bettering board for a couple of years but hope it’sok to post this here.

My wife has always tried to keep me from my relationships with my family. When I first joined bpd family, my wife had banned me from taking photos of our baby and sending them to my mother. I had told her that I was going to start taking sending photos and she said our marriage was over. It took her months to get over this.

My parents have only met our children a few times, partly due to covid. They are 3.5, 2, and 7 months. They have never met the baby. My wife always used the excuse of breast feeding being a challenge, not wanting visitors etc.

We moved several hours away for financial reasons so it’s a long journey for me mother to get here and my dad isn’t well enough to travel. My mother came up last September and stayed in a hotel. My wife allowed her to see the children a few hours each day. But now she’s saying my mother made her feel uncomfortable and that my mother doesn’t make any effort with her. I said but she has a right to see her grandchildren and my wife said, she does but not if she doesn’t make any effort with me.  I don’t know how best to handle this. I’ve been hoping my wife would come round but it’s not looking likely.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[livednlearned]

How you handle this probably depends on where you're at in your own journey.

I've been using the phrase resource guarding lately. It's from dog training but the behaviors are similar. When dogs feel fear about losing something precious they resource guard. It's a form of aggression.

Your wife is being aggressive. She's snarling.

The only friend I was able to keep in my life during my BPDx marriage went out of her way to flatter and compliment my ex. How good his cooking was. How knowledgeable he was about art. How funny he was.

It seemed a bit over the top but later I realized it was essential. He needed that validation, like a lot of BPD people do.

Maybe create a validation bridge between your wife and mom.

Sort of like trading what's precious to your mom (the babies) for what's precious to your wife (validation).

Your mom would have to be on board, of course. It sounds like your wife is almost saying this outright (your mom doesn't make any effort). Perhaps spending a little time focused on your wife at the get together would make a small difference.

What do you think?

I know for me it was eye opening how I became invisible after my son was born. I could put it in perspective because it's a baby after all. But someone with BPD may be unable to put those emotions in perspective. Your wife may want the same kind of attention your mom gives the babies.

[thankful person]

Hi lived n learned,

Thank you for your reply. You are absolutely right. Even when our middle was in the neonatal icu fighting for her life, my wife seemed jealous that the baby was getting all the attention. My wife does want as much attention as the babies and she’s pretty much said as much. And where most people would be like, “what is the point in conning someone into giving you attention?”, it does seem to be her goal here.

There is not going to be a gathering, but my wife communicates with my mother through text messages. The problems are that sometimes Mum will be on WhatsApp and not open the message. Or read the message and not reply. Or reply very shortly not including the important matter my wife had raised. My Mum knows about my wife’s bpd, but has never been much interested in learning about it. My wife considers herself cured, a “mental health warrior”. My mother has little patience or interest in mental health matters. But yes I think I need to talk to Mum and discuss these things in more detail. It’s no easy feat. I am very busy with my work and my wife is very demanding wanting phone calls in my breaks etc. I teach and if a student is away that’s the only opportunity I get because my wife is always at home.

My caretaker recovery journey started 2.5 years ago when the whole photo issue went down. Today I haven’t felt like I’ve recovered at all. My wife’s mother stayed for the weekend and I feel so sad to see her develop a relationship with the children. I managed to not put that spin on it. But I did start a conversation so my wife told her mother about my mother not being welcome here or in the children’s lives. Her mother never shares  any opinion about anything. I’ve thought about telling her Dad. He was angry about my wife not wanting my Mum to have photos. He said, “you don’t want to rock the boat, you want to capsize the fkn boat!” I don’t know what influence he has though and I don’t want to increase family gossip.

[livednlearned]

Tp,

I read through some of your recent posts and one thing you wrote is that you want what is best for your kids.

BPD can make it hard to see what we value.

Sometimes the first step is to take a step back and get that piece clear, then work from there.

Are there any similar situations where you were able to hold your ground on something important and she came around?

[thankful person]

I had a long chat with Mum today. She is totally on board but the scary thing is she says she has been making an effort but my wife often takes offence and gets angry about the littlest things. She has said cruel things about my mother being a bad mother (she has twisted the things I’ve said). My Mum feels nervous every time she has to reply to a message from my wife and feels like her efforts to start conversations are being thrown back in her face. This is all very worrying. Much as I feel I can’t do much more to be a better wife despite all the crazy accusations, it is exactly the same for Mum.

I was more honest with Mum than ever. I said that I would lose my marriage over this if I have to. It’s ridiculous that I’d need to get separated or divorced in order to have more rights over taking my children to see their grandparents. I was honest about my journey learning about the bpd, how delusional my wife is.

I don’t know what happens next. I’m not sure what you meant about values. I was extremely close to my maternal grandmother even though we didn’t see her that often. My children love my mother as well as my wife’s mother and they’re not old enough to question who comes to visit etc. One reason my Mum is so upset is because she knows her Mum would be so upset (she passed away years ago).

[GaGrl]

Values take us back to a discussion of boundaries. The best boundaries, those that we can hold with conviction, are based on our values.

So if you are clearly focused on doing what is best for your children -- that is your value. You have an overriding need to see to your children's best interests.

Your boundary -- or boundaries --then comes from your value.

What would that boundary look like or sound like in relation to your children having a relationship with your mother?

[thankful person]

This situation is a deal breaker for me. It was the situation with the photos rule that first prompted me to stand up to my wife and that was before I knew anything about bpd family. I was willing to lose my marriage over that and here I am again. It is much harder for me to just “go against my wife’s wishes” on this one. The children are young and the little one still breast feeds. My wife is always home and rarely goes out without me. I never take the children anywhere on my own except nursery or the shops. I’m unsure how to assert my rights and boundaries here.

[livednlearned]

I was going to start taking sending photos and she said our marriage was over. It took her months to get over this.

This is a win.

It took her months, and she got over it.

Your mom came down and stayed in a hotel and saw the kids for a few hours a day.

Another win.

So you're doing something right. It's very, very hard when we encounter total resistance, but for every inch she fought, you managed to cover a mile.

What do you attribute your successes to?

[thankful person]

Lived n learned thank you. I thought I’d come a long way but since this I’ve been feeling I’ve got nowhere. The reason I took a stand over the photos was because my Mum was so upset. I tried to reason with my wife which got me nowhere. I knew I was risking my marriage but I didn’t want to treat Mum badly.

All of my family visits etc have been with wife’s agreement/approval for the past few years. I haven’t minded because it’s been easier to plan and execute plans when my wife feels she has some control. I know it’s been a stressful time with the breast feeding etc and I’m respectful of her not wanting many visits (even her own family). But baby is older now so it’s a good time for it. Btw I actually read your reply out to Mum on the phone and she did agree with it but I’m not sure there’s much she can do differently, even if she were to visit us. The fact that my wife often accuses me of making no effort and I’m not sure what I can do differently speaks volumes. I’ve asked what I could do better and the answer is, “you should KNOW.”

[livednlearned]

It seems to be a new situation so it's understandable you feel like you're back to square one. There are still signs you are making progress.

Is she resisting more or less than she did with the photos? In what ways is it different?

What is most challenging about asserting your boundaries with her?

I’m not sure there’s much she can do differently, even if she were to visit us.

Do you mean stay with you, as in stay overnight? Or like the last visit where she stayed in a hotel.

Me personally, I think it's asking for problems to have in-laws stay in the home, especially with a newborn in the home. Even without BPD as a complicating factor it's not easy.

The fact that my wife often accuses me of making no effort and I’m not sure what I can do differently speaks volumes. I’ve asked what I could do better and the answer is, “you should KNOW.”

I wonder if this is more like, "I am a nonsensical person, you should KNOW." Sort of a foot stomp.

She wants your attention. Doesn't matter what for, or whether there's any content there of substance.

[Notwendy]

thankful person-

I think you were hoping perhaps the family members here have some advice or solution, but actually, the estranged family members here are struggling and wondering why this is happening to them, that they are cut off from their loved ones due to a spouse with BPD.

You know my story with my BPD mother, but one event that led me to these boards was actually my father. My BPD mother sees people as being on her side or not her side. She was angry at me, pulled my father to "her side" against me and she ruined his relationship with me. How could this happen? I didn't ever imagine this. I thought the parent- child bond was stronger than that. My father's family members didn't discuss the situation with me but after he passed, one of his relatives did tell me that relationships were strained with them. BPD mother disliked his family. The issue wasn't just between him and me. It was with his parents, and his siblings as well.

I think if you look at this situation with a long range, you will see that - this issue with your mother is the current one, but the actual issue is your wife wanting to control all your relationships- with your parents, with your children, with your students. Not only did my mother control my father's relationships, she controlled him. He earned the money- she controlled it. She listened in on his phone calls. They shared an email address. I was not aware of this until his elder years. I thought I had a one- one- one relationship with my father but everything I said to him was shared with her and any emails I got from him were probably dictated by her.

The marital bond is primary, it's a special exclusive relationship but it doesn't mean one can not have a relationship with anyone else. We can love our family members and our children too. We can have friends. This doesn't take away from the love of a spouse. However, for the person with BPD, attachment to anyone else feels like a threat. For my mother, she seemed to be more opposed to the female connections- daughter, sister, mother.

When my father was ill, her BPD behaviors increased. Understandably, this was difficult for all of us, and if BPD behaviors are coping mechanisms, dysfunctional ones, but coping- they would increase. BPD mother seemed jealous of all the attention to my father. Our whole family seemed to rotate around her most of the time.  

For my mother, if she knows we want something, it becomes collateral for control.  Your wife knows your mother wants to see the children. My mother has asked me if I wanted certain items in her house. If I tell her I want something, this is the item she will hold on to. She has no intention of giving it to me when she asks. She wants to know if I want it. Grandchildren are potential collaterals for control. This isn't considering their best interests, it's using them to fulfill her own needs.

My father was her #1 control collateral with me. Because of my attachment to him, I tolerated a lot of her behavior but there was a point where I decided to not do this.

For the families, these are hurtful situations. I am glad you are sensitive to your mother's grief. But we - family members- have no power over these BPD relationships. If the BPD spouse is controlling the spouse's relationships then the spouse is the one who has to take the stand for them.

But you have your cards in the relationship too. You should not threaten the relationship like your wife does but you have the same card. If your wife says "if your kids see your mother, that is the end of the marriage" - and you don't comply, then the decision is back in her hands. This is risky, as she might decide it's the end of the marriage, or - if the marriage means more to her, then she may decide to not follow through with her threat. Your decision is, if you are willing to take that risk. Your mother can't do anything about the situation, no matter how much she tries, but you can.

You saw what happened with the pictures of your kids and your wife didn't leave.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[thankful person]

Is she resisting more or less than she did with the photos? In what ways is it different?

What is most challenging about asserting your boundaries with her?
 
Do you mean stay with you, as in stay overnight? Or like the last visit where she stayed in a hotel.

I wonder if this is more like, "I am a nonsensical person, you should KNOW." Sort of a foot stomp.

With the photos, I never really bothered arguing at first but then announced and enacted my boundary shortly after my failed attempt to reason with her. The difference is of course it was very easy to actually start taking and sending photos after this and she didn’t even have to know every time and eventually she got over it.

I fought through many issues back in 2021 with the help of bpd family members. But it was more a learning curve, hey I can play the piano/have a shower when I want/FaceTime my parents when I want/wear what I want etc. Learning to do these things was so liberating and enjoyable. I just can’t imagine how this would go down.

Back in September, Mum stayed in a hotel for about 4 nights and spent about 4 hours here each morning before the kids’ nap time. I took her out to lunch and local landmarks in the afternoon (something I never would have dared do in the past). My wife hated that of course. My mum are alone in the evening but she really didn’t mind as she was just so happy to see the kids and also spend some time with me. I thought when my wife’s mother visited recently and spent more time sight seeing with us, I thought my wife would then be more open to my mum doing the same. I thought wrong.

Mum doesn’t mind staying in a hotel in fact she’s used to it from when my Dad fell out with my ex. Wife’s mother has never been welcome here before. She was supposed to be babysitting while wife and I went out but the kids didn’t get to sleep in time (my wife puts them all to bed).

I’m starting to think about how this might go down and also have some thoughts from baby ducks to work through on the other page. Maybe it will have to be like the photos where I just announce that I would like Mum to come and stay (in a hotel) for a few days and for her to see the children too. She will be very angry at me attempting to defy her demands. Hopefully I will handle the fall out a bit better than with the photo thing, as I’m more experienced now. Then just wait and see what actually happens when Mum’s in town..

[thankful person]

Not Wendy, thank you for all these further insights. Yes I thought maybe the in laws might have some advice for my Mum but I already feel this situation is helpless from that point of view. I have more power now I’ve secretly discussed it with Mum, as she was able to tell me she hadn’t actually been behaving as my wife said. This is so frustrating because, as you know my story, my wife has been treating me much better over recent months (than the first few months after baby was born). This is no coincidence though right? She has been inadvertently drawn to create more drama between us. I understand what you’re saying and I’m thinking maybe I just need to invite my mother up after our holiday(to stay in a hotel) and tell my wife she will be seeing the children and go from there. With the photos I handled her reaction terribly because I didn’t have the support and expert advice of bpd family back then. I was devastated and pleading for forgiveness whilst still holding the boundary. At least I’m going into this prepared so if my wife then says, “our marriage is over”, I’ll be like, “I know”. (Being sarcastic, couldn’t help myself I’ll try not to say it irl). In all seriousness I don’t see her taking steps to end the marriage, I just see her telling me I am not a good enough wife, that I’ve never supported her, that I make no effort, and that I should leave. And that is all I’ll hear for months. Put down on the screen it doesn’t sound that bad. But it will be. So there you go, I can see into the future. It seems a nice cheap local hotel my Mum stayed at and I’ll probably go there if I ever need to stay somewhere away from home.

[Notwendy]

I don't think anyone can predict what your wife will do, but I would imagine she'd be upset, say some mean things, but not leave the marriage. She sounds like my mother- who threatened- but could not manage on her own. You are the wage earner and also helper.

As much as you don't want the split, and may fear it, I think you have more independent skills than your wife does. Also, with three little ones, going into the workplace is a challenge. Child care for three could cost almost, possibly more, than what one could earn in the workforce. It would take a lot of executive function for your wife to go through with her threats.

That was a paradox in our family too. It was BPD mother who was the dependent one, but somehow had the power in the family. The other one is that - the family members who were connected to him- why did we get the "short end of the stick" when it came to my father's consideration? It seemed odd- I was a responsible kid, behaved appropriately, and it was BPD mother being unreasonable but he'd defer to her unreasonable requests. Here, your mother, who has done nothing wrong, unable to see the grandchildren because your wife is being unreasonable?

My best guess is that, my father was overwhelmed and acting out of "survival mode" and in a conflict, would take the path of least resistance because his own emotional reserves were focused on keeping the family afloat. Going against BPD mother's wishes is difficult. Saying no to other family members- well we won't behave like BPD mother does.

[thankful person]

Not Wendy,

Today I finally started reading Codependent no more. I know I have work to do with this current situation. But as far as the kids are concerned, I do not want to ever take my wife’s side against them in a way that is unfair and would cause confusion or suffering. I understand how hard this might be. The Mother’s Day card story I shared was an example of how I stood up for my daughter when my wife tried to bully me out of letting her draw in my mother’s card. Most of the time I am at peace with being the best parent I can be and I find extra tolerance and patience due to my wife’s lacking these things. I am certainly not at peace with this situation with my mother. My wife is still banging on about my not making any effort in our marriage, and I’m starting to find this boring rather than upsetting, which could be a sign I’m feeling a bit stronger.

[Notwendy]

I think my father would have said the same thing- that he loved his kids and would stand up for them, and I think he did that. The "default" actions were done at times of distress, when there was only so much he could deal with, and so he defaulted to the person who was most difficult. To do otherwise, would escalate the situation and he was already maxed out.

I think this is why other family members are put aside for the wishes of the pwBPD. It's similar to a child being able to misbehave with a safe parent. They don't fear that parent. With my BPD mother, any slight is the "crime of the century" while when staying with my father's family, we could be silly little kids. We might get disciplined but we felt safe and loved.

Even if your family of origin has some issues, you mostly feel safe and loved by your mother. You know you are not going to lose her love if you disappoint her. But with your wife, saying no might cause her to escalate. Saying "no" to my mother is very difficult. She does escalate and it can be destructive. So when she's escalating, in the moment, all you want is to calm things down and the choice for my father was- say no to BPD mother and deal with her behavior, or say no to the kid who isn't going to do that.

Another factor is that, thankfully, I am more self sufficient than my mother and even as a young teen, I could manage to take care of myself at home- I could cook, I could get myself to school. I think my father recognized that. So he was more concerned and protective of my mother. That didn't mean it was OK, but I think - it was more about how our family managed as a unit.

[thankful person]

I completely understand and I’ve also observed the same behaviour from my brother caretaking his wife, and in the past have received questionable and somewhat cruel emails from him which I do not think he wrote. I will remain a member on here as the children grow up and always hold myself accountable for my actions. I have also noted how grown up our 3 year old is, how she tries to calm my wife down, comfort her and apologise and ask if she’s ok when she’s having an adult tantrum. Also she has been known to try and tidy up after my wife makes a mess throwing/breaking things during her emotional meltdowns. My eldest daughter tends to hide her emotions and I will try and support her as best I can as she grows up. She still doesn’t talk much, but I’m looking forward to when she can understand a few more things such as, “that wasn’t your fault when Mummy shouted earlier.” etc.