UBPDxw / alienation ... chaos.

[EyesUp]

@FD, thanks - I recall parts of your story. 

Since I'm about 18 months past final decree, the parts of your story that are potentially most instructive are what happened when you petitioned for change of circumstances.

What were the changes?

How was documentation of disparagement presented, and how did it pertain to the petition?

Did you expect to be referred to a GAL on the way in with the petition? 

Thanks again. 

[EyesUp]

Updates.

The kids transitioned to me today. They arrived in various states of anxiousness, but quickly calmed down at my house and we had a good "movie night" dinner and watched Star Trek (!) for the first time together - Great way to slip in some discussion of adults modeling good behavior, lateral thinking, various philosophies, etc. They didn't hate it, had lots of comments and questions.

But it's not all calm seas. During the transition, n/BPDx was confrontational and made a number of false or highly distorted statements/accusations, within earshot of the kids...

e.g., X accused me of "spying" on the kids devices. I told her to put concerns in writing and simply walked away while I continued loading the car. Re: spying - We have a device agreement with all three kids that states mom and dad have access to phones and will monitor from time to time. And we remind the kids about appropriate use of the devices once a year. Accusations re: spying are an attempt to reframe me as bad and her as good. I'm not spying, I'm doing my job as a dad.

The fact is: I did review D15's phone, and I did find significant evidence of persistent disparagement. I suspect that D15 and/or X are somehow aware of my recent review, which triggered X's comment today. From both a legal and emotional POV, I know this stuff has a shelf life.

My plan was to spend the next two weeks with my kids - it's our summer vacation time - and then decide next steps based on everyone's behavior, after a smooth transition back to school.

Then later today, X informed me via email that she terminated her atty. That was it, no other context. I suspect that this means she will seek new representation and that trouble is brewing. I'm presently feeling like fortune favors the bold and so perhaps I should take some action sooner rather than later. Never a dull moment.

That said, the endless yet needless conflict is no fun.

[ForeverDad]

What were the changes for Change of Circumstances?

How was documentation of disparagement presented, and how did it pertain to the petition?

Did you expect to be referred to a GAL on the way in with the petition?

That was many moons ago, my child came in middle age and now he's grown and I'm retired.

Basically, Change of Circumstances claims the order needs substantive changes of custody or parenting time.  I had moved up from temp no custody and alternate weekends to Shared Parenting and equal time in the final decree a  couple years before.  We never did learn what the final Custody Evaluation report recommended sealed by the court said.  The preliminary CE report said Shared Parenting (50/50) and if it failed then Father should get custody.  Of course, Shared Parenting failed and that is what I sought once some time had passed.  Unfortunately, when we went back to court the court ruled the final CE report sealed a couple years before was stale, too old to release or use.

I don't recall all we listed, but I do recall some of the testimony.

My joint custody attempt in the final decree settlement failed and so I went back to court.  Strangely, there was one item that the court remarked on, that she was "not credible" in one part of her testimony where she explained that she sabotaged my mid-winter vacation by claiming for the first time to want son with her for her holiday time during Kwanzaa.  It was on a long list of holidays which we had failed to strike out the ones not observed.  To the court she explained that though she wasn't of Jewish descent, she could still observe it.  My lawyer jumped on it, asking her to describe this "Jewish Kwanzaa" and her lawyer couldn't object, well, not until my lawyer asked her for the third time.  Literally, there were times I saw the magistrate drop his head onto his crossed arms!  The decision did get me full custody but was remarkably circumspect, it wasn't until a few years later when I got a better order that the last magistrate came right out and repeatedly called her out on her 'disparagement of father'.

And this post includes comments about my child's Guardian ad Litem (GAL).  For whatever reason we didn't have a GAL during our divorce, probably because we had a Custody Evaluator?  We got a GAL after magistrate approved the Changes of Circumstances but before the case proceeded to the main judge.

Back in 2009 I filed Change of Circumstances to end Shared Parenting and get custody.  It went before the magistrate in my county that is fairly passive and unfairly defaults to mothers.  It didn't go well for ex in the 2010 hearing and magistrate wrote how ex was "not credible" in one part of her testimony, that was where she had obstructed my vacation notice by demanding she get her holiday time for Kwanzaa even though, as she stated, she wasn't of Jewish descent.  (She knew so little about that holiday that she didn't even know it wasn't a Jewish holiday.)  When it went to the judge in 2011, the GAL recommended I get custody but that ex keep equal time since then she could get child support (alimony had just ended) and be more stable.  I knew that 'deal' wouldn't work, but my lawyer said that if we proceeded to trial the judge might hear the opposing arguments and then rule for the GAL's solution anyway.  So that's what we settled.  It didn't work of course and in 2012 I filed for Modification of Parenting time and 17 months later after 2 days of testimony, I got majority time at the end of 2013.

My point is that the judge is likely to see a GAL's recommendation as being less biased than either parent's claims and arguments.  A lot of documentation is needed to change what the GAL may recommend to the court.

Caution:  Keep in mind too that a GAL may be trying to broker a 'deal' - settlements are the outcome in many cases - so you may find you are pressured to accept a lousy ruling that is sure to bring you back to court again to be fixed./quote]

As I look back over my eight years in and out of court, I concluded court resists making big fixes, it prefers to make incremental improvements until the parents stop coming back.  Eight years with adjustments every couple years.  Well, except there was one huge change, it was at the very beginning in our initial temp orders, they assumed my then-spouse should get the unspoken unwritten motherhood preferential default temp order without considering any of the factors available for consideration at the time.

Many here have encouraged that we focus our attention on Solutions and not quite as much the bickering and complaints.  Hopefully the court will see you as the reasonably normal and stable parent with practical solutions and not as part of the problem.

[EyesUp]

Thanks for comments.

Briefly, the kids are now with me for 2 weeks for summer vacation.  2 nights ago, D15 confronted me re: spying on her phone as she saw a screenshot on my computer a text between D15 and her mom.  It was quickly closed and she did not see the full content.

She was highly charged, accused me to attempting to separate her from her mom, etc., etc.

I assured her that's not the case, my goal is to raise happy, healthy, confident people, and that yes, I track her phone - it's my responsibility as her parent, and also part of the device agreement that she signed.  She was too upset to hear, so I did not persist and simply said she's not in trouble and we're going to get through this.

The next morning, she spoke with her mom, and subsequently I got an email from X stating that I threatened legal action against my kid.

I've not responded to X, and D15 is now regulated, conversational, etc.

I'm mainly a bit uneasy about what/when to do with D15 from here.  Obviously job #1 is to ensure that the remaining time of vacation goes well - we have plans almost every day with a little bit of downtime mixed in.  But unclear if I should follow up with D15 vs. risk seeming avoidant or like I'm ignoring her concerns about privacy or "sweeping things under the rug" - we do have work to do on mutual trust, as the texts with mom are a huge issue:  D15 recorded me, sent the recordings to her mom - My X did not tell her not to record, but rather said "thanks" and "delete this" - there was nothing inflammatory in the recording.

Parenting teenagers is its own challenge, but coparenting or parallel parenting with my X is chaos.  My D should not be in this position, and I have no doubt that it's due to my X's persistent disparagement and engaging D15 in play-by-play discussion about the divorce, etc.

Some other notes: D15 sent her mom texts saying the place we're staying is "super sketchy" and dirty, etc.  It's a 4.95/5 star AirBnB that's super charming.

This feels like a setup.

[ForeverDad]

I'm sure by the time your stay in the AirBnB is over, you'll have a few nice videos of you and the kids documented having a good time there... in case history ever gets rewritten as a bad time and place.

[EyesUp]

I'm sure by the time your stay in the AirBnB is over, you'll have a few nice videos of you and the kids documented having a good time there... in case history ever gets rewritten as a bad time and place.

But of course.

However that feels like defense - and the judge doesn't have time to review hours of videos, thousands of pages of email, etc.

You don't plan for a nuclear war just by purchasing iodine tabs, you also actively attempt to deescalate and seek resolution where possible.

In this instance, almost anything I say to D15 can be weaponized, ignored, or outright mischaracterized.  When that happened with my X, we eventually divorced.   

[livednlearned]

almost anything I say to D15 can be weaponized, ignored, or outright mischaracterized. 

What advice would you offer here with people going through something similar?

It's possible that strong action will drive D15 deeper into alienation. It's also possible that less action will drive D15 deeper into alienation. It's excruciatingly difficult to know what's best. Often there is a point at where we either jump or don't jump and the only person who can really make that decision is us, alone. 

It's hell.

However, I am wondering if, in addition to alienation, you are suggesting it's possible D15 might participate in a false allegation?

[EyesUp]

What advice would you offer here with people going through something similar?
...

However, I am wondering if, in addition to alienation, you are suggesting it's possible D15 might participate in a false allegation?

Good questions.

re: advice - document, document, document.  Set boundaries.  Focus on yourself.

re: false allegation - it's already happened, but it's been relatively easy to diffuse. 

My growing concern at the moment, is that D15 has or will develop BPD behaviors like my X. 

I've generally disengaged with X. To the extent that we must interact, I follow much of the playbook I learned here. However I've reluctantly come to see that perhaps D15 has similar behaviors - up is down, etc. Unclear if she has BPD or is merely emulating what she's learned from X. 

I suspect if I go back and read, my posts about D15 are mainly about X and/or protecting D15 from X - when, in fact, D15 may be manifesting her own set of behaviors. Nature vs. nurture questions may not be particularly relevant, or at least not the priority.

Your point about the decision to take action is understood - thank you.

I am concerned that if I initiate some legal action - file a motion, go for temp orders, etc. - it could backfire in a number of ways. D15 is do deeply enmeshed with her mom, that any limit to mom's authority or time will not be well received.

My sense is that now is the time to "file a parking ticket" - but that this activity could backfire tremendously, and that D12 and D8 could be caught in crossfire.

[ForeverDad]

Are the kids all in counseling?  Or is that concept something that has triggered ex in the past?  I ask since you need informed educated professionals interfacing with the kids.  That way if and when things blow up as you try to rein in the chaos and alienation you will have already involved some professionals who can later provide their observation and conclusions about the family's dynamics.

Be forewarned that many counselors and therapist refuse to testify should things go to court.  After all, they know better than to expose themselves to lawsuits or complaints to licensing boards by disgruntled parents.

However, they can provide input in a roundabout way if you ever get a Guardian ad Litem (GAL or legal representative) for the kids or have a Custody Evaluation.  What they won't say in direct testimony can be shared with GALs or custody evaluators.  As well, if they have a history of working with the family members then there would be more than just your word alone against your spouse's claims.

If providing counselors is a touchy topic now, how about consulting the kids' school counselors so they can have a heads up.  They're there for the kids' welfare.  Kids can be assured neither parent has to know what is shared.  (Although counselors are also legally mandated reporters when abuse is indicated.)  Take advantage of those resources.

[livednlearned]

I am concerned that if I initiate some legal action - file a motion, go for temp orders, etc. - it could backfire in a number of ways. D15 is do deeply enmeshed with her mom, that any limit to mom's authority or time will not be well received.

It pains me to say that the outcome also probably comes down to the judge.

My judge was good and I say that even though it took 4 years for me to get what I initially asked for.

Our second to last hearing was a set of tasks n/BPDx needed to complete in order to reinstate regular visitation: anger management, substance abuse treatment, parenting classes.

On paper I had primary custody, joint legal. I'm not even sure what the percentage of visitation looked like since it was down to 4 hours Sat and 4 hours Sun with n/BPDx.

Hell would freeze over before n/BPDx would complete his tasks so I figured that was how we would ride it out until our son turned 18.

Instead, my lawyer pushed to get full custody on paper (or the approximation of that since full custody wasn't language our court used) because she knew the judge was rotating off the bench and she was concerned about the new one rotating in.

I mean, that is so messed up.

It's one of the reasons why having a lawyer who litigates in court is so important when things get (very) high conflict, at least high conflict in the legal sense. You want a lawyer who is good at litigating, and who knows the judges.

Because it seems if you get a bad outcome, the BPD narrative will almost certainly prevail.

[EyesUp]

So, tonight D15 sent me a txt saying she wants to go to mom's, doesn't feel safe at my house, doesn't want to take the trip planned for this week, doesn't like the way I treat mom.

A minute later, I receive an email from X saying D15's wants to go to her house, and it's fine with her...

It's 9pm.

I responded to D15 via txt (I'm downstairs in the kitchen, she's upstairs in her room) - It hurts to read, I'm sorry she feels this way, I need time to consider, I'd like to better understand how she's feeling...

I'm supposed to take her to the mall with a friend tomorrow - plans confirmed.

I'm horrified about what effect separating the kids might have.

Now it feels like I've been slow to take action all along.

[ForeverDad]

Can you state that one of the firm aspects of the parenting schedule is when each parent has their parenting time and that you need to follow the court's order?  As though your hands are legally tied, so to speak?

Also, life in general is not all sweets and roses, you're there for her too and her addressing life with determination to deal with it will make her a better adult - and set a good example for her younger siblings?

You have a wise concern about the children getting split up, if one goes, that lets ex's focus shift to the other two.  Divide and conquer.  Yes, as teens get older they want to set a home base, too often where it is unwise, but with alienation a real factor you should hold to the current schedule.

[EyesUp]

Can you state that one of the firm aspects of the parenting schedule is when each parent has their parenting time and that you need to follow the court's order?  As though your hands are legally tied, so to speak?

I recently explained to D15 that mom and I were not ordered to do anything - we agreed. 

I know it's a low-probability approach to expect any support from X, but I tried a version of what you suggested with X, instead: I intend to honor our vacation time agreement.

I also mentioned that giving D15 autonomy would apply to both of us... while D15 is generally very mature and responsible, it's still our responsibility to both impose limits and make/approve major decisions, and model solutions... 

I expect I'll get blow back along the lines of "I don't trust you, and I support her" - which I'll add to the document pile.

I should have one more shot with D15 later today when she returns from the mall... since X can't come here to pick her up, D15 would need to literally walk out the door with bags packed.  Hoping to avoid that after she cools down after some retail therapy. 

[livednlearned]

There is a strange path forward with alienation where D15 might say one thing and do another.

This is true of SS24, the child who was most alienated by his uBPD mother. He is paying the price for choosing to live with his mother and is now working desperately to break free while she both orders him to get out then sabotages every effort to do so. He is miserable there.

SS24 will run his mouth about not being able to be alone with H, then flies out here to do just that. He gives H noogies and playful pops to the arm, and teases him. Given a choice to spend time at home with me making dinner, SS24 happily goes off with his dad to walk the dog. Yet H is "abusive."

It is bizarre. Yet maybe not so bizarre. Kids with a BPD parent experience the elasticity of reality so I guess this is an extension of that.

All of H's kids have a trace of contempt for him yet are simultaneously desperate for his affection, attention, support. I suspect the contempt is leftover from uBPD mom's chronic disparagement campaign active throughout their childhoods, one they now carry with them, even though they struggle to source exact memories.

H's kids are also weird about money with him. I think something transactional happens with alienation that I'm still trying to tease out.

[EyesUp]

There are occasionally contradictory messages or signals, as well as... strange behaviors with money.  D15 will say I don't care about her, then ask for something lavish... (eyeroll emoji).  I may have mentioned the TSwift tix - never got a thanks.  Today I gave her some $ to go to the mall with a friend from school she hasn't seen since late June.  She blew through it in a minute and texted to ask for more (she knows I can send it in an app) - this was shortly after telling me that she hates me and won't go on vacation.

Anyway, after I engaged X re: my intention to stick to the vacation schedule, I received a predictably defensive text in which X said that she only told D15 it was ok to go to her house if it was ok with me.  That's all I needed. 

When D15 returned from the mall, she started to bring bags to the door expecting me to taxi her to X's.  I explained that it's not ok with me.  After about an hour of ranting (yes, I let it go too far), D15 called X and explained "dad won't let me go"...  then get off the phone and say should would never move from the chair she was sitting in.

About 15 minutes later, D15 was sitting at the table with her sisters eating grilled shrimp with penne and pesto, and no further protest.

Not sure if she plans to leave in the middle of the night... TBD.

Anyway, thanks again to @FD, et al. The interaction her often helps me focus and take action, and if nothing else I've managed to keep the kids together for another night. Hopefully more.

[EyesUp]

I think I messed up.  After dinner, D15 was continuously txt'ing with X and became highly activated. She declared that she was staying in the kitchen and would not sleep in her bed or anywhere in the house, and would stay up all night...  I checked in with her every so often, but stayed firm:  Not changing the schedule.  

After a while, I sat with her on the floor in the kitchen and asked open-ended questions.  She was all over the place, lots of accusations, lots of contradictions, lots of emoting. I listened, I acknowledged, sometimes I agreed.  At one point she said, "if I leave this kitchen, I lose" and asked her if there were any other options?  Maybe something other than win or lose?  No.

Eventually, she proposed that if I let her go to mom's for the night, she would go on the trip.  I asked her to promise.  And then agreed.

Now I'm wondering if she'll do an about-face today.  

It's really hard to see your kid sit on the floor, exhausted, miserable.  In the moment, I felt like if I demonstrated some flexibility, it would help model how to get to a win-win through talking  instead of a win-lose (or lose-lose), but I'm not sure it will stick.

[EyesUp]

I waited 30 minutes, but she finally got in the car and has slowly started to thaw...

[kells76]

Interesting -- so if I'm tracking with you, last night she was at Mom's (on the promise that she'd go on the trip today), and now today, even though she made a show of foot-dragging, she's ultimately complying?

[EyesUp]

Yes, with a mix of politeness and overt belligerence in front of her sisters.

I think the key was riffing on FD's suggestion about complying with orders, only instead of making this point to D15, I made it to uBPDx... ("X") via email:  "I intend to follow the agreement" - Which triggered a defensive response from X "I only told her she could stay with me if you agreed" in writing - which then put me in position to agree or not. 

I did not agree to skip vacation. I did agree to allow one night at X's during my time prior to today's departure. In retrospect it was a huge risk, with a low probability of success - meaning I'm surprised that D15 followed through.

Amazingly, no further emails or nastygrams from X either, although I think this may be due to D15 - who has likely communicated to X that I'm aware of highly disparaging messages X sent to D15 and then told D15 to delete, also via text.

I made it clear to D15 last night:  I have things I need to work on with her mom.  And, separately, there are things I need to work on with her.  They are not the same things, and I don't see D15 and X as one and the same.  And I underscored that D15 is not in trouble.

I think D15 heard this and felt some relief, and also appreciated that after all was said and done I allowed her to go to her mom's for a night - which enabled her to agree to do the right thing, if not for me or for herself, then for her sisters.

Thanks for following along.

I have not addressed D15's overtly rude behavior - Although I'm not content to let this pass in front of younger sisters.  I have spoken with D12 and D8 about D15's feelings and assured them that I love D15 - and them - and sometimes parents and kids have to work through tough times, and that I will never give up on D15 or them.  Big smiles and hugs, actually got a thumbs up from D12...

[livednlearned]

I honestly can't picture how anyone could handle it much better than you did. 

[GaGrl]

I agree -- very well handled.

I loved my father very, very much. That said, the year I was 15 was our toughest year.

In retrospect, that was the year of my efforts to individuals more completely. Much of my effort was invalidated. I really gave my parents fits.

My warning would be -- as D15 individuates, efforts to "clamp down" will only cause her to go underground, which does not bode well for the next 4-5 years.

Keep those talks going -- open, validating, loving. Your X might not be able to do that, and the contrast will eventually become evident to D15.