Is this a budding n/bpd -9 yr old?

[Tangled mangled]

So I was having a good day as it was my birthday. I’m a single parent , celebrating with my two children who are under 10years old.
We didn’t have a big party , just cakes and soft drinks and some food.I used this opportunity to buy my son a drink he’s been wanting for months now. ( prime drink).
We were all happy listening to music for a few minutes and dancing.
My older son who is nine left myself and his younger brother to go enjoy his drink in his bedroom.
A few minutes later he came back to kitchen where we were still listening to music and Inwas cleaning up some spilled drinks on the floor, his brother was helping me. He came into the kitchen and stopped the music, while I was reacting to that he made a nasty comment “ mum did you fart? “.
I got so triggered by this behaviour, reminded me of my FOO and my ex husband ( his dad) who always had a way of ruining a happy moment.
So my question is: is this how narcs start- why does this  feel  like a narc starter pack to me?
I migh be over reacting but this same child always wants the attention to himself all the time.
Anyone here with experience dealing with children of narc/bpd

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[kells76]

Hi Tangled mangled;

Many parents and stepparents (I'm a stepmom) here share your concerns when we watch the kids grow up, knowing that the other parent, and possibly other adults in the kids' lives, are disordered. All those questions about nature, nurture, environment, heredity, imitation, etc, can get stirred up, especially because we bring our own pasts and experiences to these situations.

I also find myself wondering -- is it because SD15 is just a 15 year old, or because her uBPD mom told her something, or because her uNPD stepdad did something, or because SD15 is developing or already has some brain wiring issues, or... the questions continue. It's not an easy place to be in.

One perspective that can help us is to remind ourselves that in a way, the adults with PDs are the ones who have had their development inhibited, not the other way around. What that means is -- in a way, it's not that our kids/stepkids are acting like they have PDs... it's that the adults with PDs are behaving at an immature level.

Your adult ex probably had emotions flip quickly, and you may have memories of things going pretty well and then suddenly he started yelling/being negative/baiting/arguing/etc. Because he is disordered, he doesn't have mature coping skills for feelings.

Your S9, however, is the kid. It's normal for kids to sometimes behave immaturely; that's part of how they grow up healthily. That doesn't make rudeness okay -- there can still be consequences or conversations or both -- but it is less of a red flag for a nine year old boy to be rude and immature, than for an adult man to act that way. Unless I've missed some more backstory on your S9, nothing in the situation that happened immediately stands out to me as "on the path to NPD".

A great gift you can give your sons to help them develop more normally, despite having a PD dad, is to model for them appropriate responses. Their dad won't really be able to do that, so you have an opportunity to show them a different way. It's hard, though, when the kids' behaviors trigger us, and remind us of the PD parent. That's our cue to take a moment, take a breath, slow down, and "untangle" what's going on, making sure that we keep our issues in our lane and our kids' issues in their lane.

Sometimes it's also hard to figure out what tool or approach to use in a high-stress moment when we feel triggered. When SD17 starts getting defensive, intense, and verbose, I start to shut down. It takes me some effort to find grounding and balance, so I often try to turn to validating what I can of what she's saying -- just to keep myself in the conversation without reacting. I have gotten pretty reactive with SD15 over behavioral stuff, and I've had to work hard to nip that.

A good starter point for me with either of them would be to slow down, take a second, and say something neutral to draw them out, like "Tell me more about why you turned off the music".

Another approach to take some power away and neutralize rudeness in the moment (maybe S9 is trying to see if he has power to get reactions out of people) is to use humor and low-key laughter to show that his rudeness doesn't really impact you (all I can think of is "he who smelt it, dealt it" but there are probably other lines).

Later on might be a better time to circle back and have the conversation about: "You know, buddy, when people hear rude words about smells and farts, they might not want to hang out with you. People don't like spending time with people who say rude things." Or: "Not sure you knew this, but a lot of people don't really want to be friends with people who point out things about their bodies, like farts. I want you to have friends!"

A lot of parents and stepparents here have found the book The Power of Validation (for parents) - Karyn D. Hall, PhD helpful in learning the non-intuitive approaches we have to take with listening and discipline when there's a PD parent involved. Check it out -- would love to hear if you find it helpful. And as there is some thought that PDs develop in non-validating or low-validation households/environments, implementing validation with the kids could be thought of as "innoculating" them as best you can against that.

This is hard stuff when our fears and pasts get dredged up by what the kids are doing. You're doing great to ask about what's going on and to be open to learning more.

Does your other son have any behaviors that concern you?

[Tangled mangled]

Thanks so much Kells
I will definitely read the recommendation.

A great gift you can give your sons to help them develop more normally, despite having a PD dad, is to model for them appropriate responses.



I struggle with appropriate responses as I’m often caught up with never ending priorities but I’m learning to curtail my reactions and to defer conversations when I feel I may make an inappropriate response.

Their dad won't really be able to do that, so you have an opportunity to show them a different way. It's hard, though, when the kids' behaviors trigger us, and remind us of the PD parent. That's our cue to take a moment, take a breath, slow down, and "untangle" what's going on, making sure that we keep our issues in our lane and our kids' issues in their lane.


There’s the challenge for me to overcome, it’s hard to unsee narcissistic behaviour and I need to learn to separate the two issues: one the one one hand being reminded of the ex and FOO with PD and dealing with the kid’s behaviour as a normal part of growing up/ development

Sometimes it's also hard to figure out what tool or approach to use in a high-stress moment when we feel triggered. When SD17 starts getting defensive, intense, and verbose, I start to shut down. It takes me some effort to find grounding and balance, so I often try to turn to validating what I can of what she's saying -- just to keep myself in the conversation without reacting. I have gotten pretty reactive with SD15 over behavioral stuff, and I've had to work hard to nip that.

That’s where I am at the moment too. I’m the highly reactive type but I’m more aware of this now. I find that staying present helps but I’m no where near as calm as I could be.

A good starter point for me with either of them would be to slow down, take a second, and say something neutral to draw them out, like "Tell me more about why you turned off the music".

That’s a good point you make here, about saying something neutral,  and using humour, looking back I can see how this would have helped me deal with his behaviour by deescalating instead of jumping to the conclusion that he just wanted to ruin a happy moment like a narc would.




He ended up apologising and wrote an apology letter on his own. He still had to bear the consequence of his action, though now I don’t know if I overreacted ( I took away one bottle of his favourite drink ) .
My older son has experienced more trauma than his brother as the older brother . At one point he was blamed  by his dad, as the cause of the chaos in the family.  Since our separation I must say most of his negative behaviours have reduced- he was learning to gaslight me, telling lies, raging at his brother and was very verbally abusive to me. But I have managed to keep these behaviours under control with discipline and ensuring he takes responsibility for the consequences of some of his actions.

I haven’t had much trouble with his younger brother apart from having to correct some bad habits that were allowed when we all lived together with their dad- their dad made them believe that they could undermine my instructions and was against any discipline. They are both getting better

Thanks again

[Sancho]

Hi Tangled mangled
Just wanted to agree with the response above and to add a thought. You say:

Since our separation I must say most of his negative behaviours have reduced- he was learning to gaslight me, telling lies, raging at his brother and was very verbally abusive to me.

This is a very good sign indeed. In the birthday example, I wonder whether your ds actually thought that was offensive. At that age a child is so exposed to what other children say and do, and it is difficult for them to have a clear idea on what is 'normal' and what is not.

In my experience as a teacher, boys of this age can be very focused on farts and teasing one another about them constantly.

When a child's behaviour is often difficult etc it can be very trying to take each incident on it's merits and what the intention of the child is at the time. But I think it is important to do this, otherwise the difficult child can learn adaptive behaviour, but underneath can be really confused and this explodes later in the teen years.

Just a thought . . . .

[Pook075]

One hallmark of my BPD child (now 24) was that she'd always say highly inappropriate things to get a reaction from the room.  While her mind worked differently, she often felt awkward and enjoyed making others feel just as awkward by saying outrageous things that would make others feel what she felt.  I guess it was in some ways a coping mechanism while trying to relate to people.

With that said, kids say wildly inappropriate things all the time.  So I wouldn't worry so much whether or not this is a sign of a disorder starting to form, but rather focus on your responses and your boundaries when it comes to appropriate behavior.  I know that's so much easier said than done and I can't tell you how many times I had a meltdown in a public place because my kid was being wildly inappropriate. 

That's okay though, we live and learn...just try to reflect on those situations and how you could have handled them differently to lead to a positive outcome (in other words, showing that it was inappropriate behavior without you also sinking to that level).  That works for any kid- disordered or not.  Set boundaries and try to enforce them as lovingly as possible.

Again- I'm preaching to the choir here since I know its almost impossible in certain situations.  My kid was smart and knew exactly which buttons to push to make mom or dad lose their cool.  I now understand that was on me though, I was the provider of those "buttons" and I could have chosen to react differently.  Once I made that switch, our relationship dynamic completely changed almost overnight.

[Tangled mangled]

When a child's behaviour is often difficult etc it can be very trying to take each incident on it's merits and what the intention of the child is at the time. But I think it is important to do this, otherwise the difficult child can learn adaptive behaviour, but underneath can be really confused and this explodes later in the teen years.

Just a thought . . . .

Sancho
Thank you for highlighting this . I struggle with isolating the different incidents with my son and I am often reacting from a place of frustration. The explosion in teenage years is what I am very worried about. I have sought advice from services here through his GP and I am engaging every professional I can get my hands on to allow him space to talk about and deal with his feelings and emotions etc.
thank you

[Tangled mangled]

One hallmark of my BPD child (now 24) was that she'd always say highly inappropriate things to get a reaction from the room.  While her mind worked differently, she often felt awkward and enjoyed making others feel just as awkward by saying outrageous things that would make others feel what she felt.  I guess it was in some ways a coping mechanism while trying to relate to people.


Pook075
Saying inappropriate things for reactions is the main frustration I have with my son’s behaviour.
Eg I went grocery shopping with him 3 months ago and was looking for the peanuts, he shouted saying maybe the store has removed the peanuts because of people like me who  fart all time… his obsession with farts is annoying and directed at me mostly… I understand what Sancho said about this being part of the behaviour for his age… but I think he knows what buttons to push.
 #metoo  have had public meltdowns about this. I always felt he’s miserable and misery needs company, so he makes everyone around him miserable to control the temperature of the house.
This MO worked when he was acting as his dads little weapon of  destruction, but since moving 300 miles away from his bpd dad I’ve been able take my position as parent and remind him of his age. It’s been a stiff power struggle but he is slowly getting better.
I’m also working on not reacting, I find that I can repress my emotions and reactions for only a certain amount time before there’s explosion ( antidepressants have helped in addition to mindfulness).
But thank you for the validation

[Sancho]

I really like Pook075's input on 'buttons'. I am going to think a lot about that myself - ie 'switching off buttons' , the ones that they push by inappropriate behaviour, and lots of attention for appropriate behaviour.

Thanks for the postings here.

[Sancho]

I wonder if your ds shows signs of ADHD? One sign is the inappropriate cutting into conversations etc . We often think in terms of running around and can't sit still etc, but there are many more subtle symptoms.

Just a thought . . .

[Tangled mangled]

I wonder if your ds shows signs of ADHD? One sign is the inappropriate cutting into conversations etc . We often think in terms of running around and can't sit still etc, but there are many more subtle symptoms.

Just a thought . . .

Thanks Sancho , he’s school and GP will be looking into this. So far, they have been minimising the the impact of his behaviour as we have moved a lot and had all these issues with his dad. He was on the waiting list for an assessment but then we moved and all got messed up so I will follow things up again.
Thank you