what does disassociation look like?

[Depression = 72% of members]

My H described his ex-wife (uBPD/NPD) as dissociating when she entered a rage. Both H and my stepdaughter describe first a change in her eyes. Even though the ex has dark brown eyes, they say her eyes changed to a flat, almost fully dilated condition. Once that happened, nothing could get through the following rage -- one could not reach her. And afterward, she would swear she didn't do or say whatever it was that she did indeed do or say.

Yes, this exactly describes what has happened with my Mom on occasion. I could see it starting with the change in her eyes.  Then, she would rage, and later, she would say that she hadn't said any of the things that she said.  And, she would accuse me of saying things that I did not say.  This is really confusing and upsetting. I now realize that she doesn't remember these episodes.

[So Stressed]

My H described his ex-wife (uBPD/NPD) as dissociating when she entered a rage. Both H and my stepdaughter describe first a change in her eyes. Even though the ex has dark brown eyes, they say her eyes changed to a flat, almost fully dilated condition. Once that happened, nothing could get through the following rage -- one could not reach her. And afterward, she would swear she didn't do or say whatever it was that she did indeed do or say.

Yes, this exactly describes what has happened with my Mom on occasion. I could see it starting with the change in her eyes.  Then, she would rage, and later, she would say that she hadn't said any of the things that she said.  And, she would accuse me of saying things that I did not say.  This is really confusing and upsetting. I now realize that she doesn't remember these episodes.

[So Stressed]

With BPD mother, it's a transformation, physically and emotionally. Her facial expressions change, and the rage, the verbal abuse. It appears that she doesn't recall some of these. It's like a switch turns on and then, after she's raged, it resets itself.

Yes, this is exactly what happens with my Mom.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I’ve heard that, as well. I think I’m afraid that if I do get a massage, it will release a flood of emotions that I can’t control.

It might... It's kind of the point though, right? Break the dam, access the emotions, release them... Might want to work with a therapist that is used to working for trauma release though, so they don't panic when the release happens !

[GaGrl]

I’ve heard that, as well. I think I’m afraid that if I do get a massage, it will release a flood of emotions that I can’t control.

My stepdaughter is a Licensed Massage Therapist who specializes in medical massage (cancer patients, lupus, fibromyalgia, MS, autism, CP, etc.). When she primarily worked on relaxation massage, she often had clients that unexpectedly burst into tears. Fortunately, her mentor worked her through it -- it is not unusual.

[livednlearned]

I've read researchers refer to mind-based and body-based disassociation.

Body-based dissociation is dissociation that causes negative emotions to be experienced as physical problems such as headaches or trouble moving.

Psychoform (mind-based) dissociation includes experiences such as feeling detached from the world (derealization), feeling disconnected from one's body or emotions (depersonalization), difficulty remembering stressful experiences (dissociative amnesia), uncertainty about who one really is (identity confusion), and internal fragmentation (identity alteration). Somatoform (body-based) dissociation describes emotional stress manifesting as medical symptoms without an underlying medical cause.

My pwBPD is very somatic with a lot of difficult to explain body based issues.

I also found this fascinating:

In addition to reducing the pain and disruption associated with post-traumatic stress itself,  dissociation  has  also  been  theorized  to  reduce  post-traumatic  shame.  However, dissociation may additionally co-occur with shame to shift an individual’s focus away from traumatic events (e.g., to direct attention  and blame  internally). This can help to preserve functioning,  especially  when  the  trauma is  high  in betrayal  and  the relationship  with  the perpetrator is one that the individual needs to preserve

With my pwBPD, it is hard to tell if what I see is masking (as in autism) or dissociation. A woman I know with autism said to me that she speculates there are many women with undiagnosed autism who have BPD traits, in part because of the invalidation of their sensory and emotional experience.

Not that there's anything I can do about it. Whether my pwBPD is masking or dissociating, it's very challenging. I wish we could address it openly but I doubt that will ever happen. It's hard to see someone so obviously traumatized and not be able to do much.

[beatricex]

iar,
You may want to look into trigger point injections (with a pain block and with or without steriods) for your neck muscle spasms.

l&l,
My mother dissociates during rages.  Over many years, I've come to expect her anger and rages and I believe it has to do with repetition compulsion, or repeatedly engaging in behaviors or seeking experiences that echo early life experiences, including past traumas.  Despite the negative consequences she suffers, she continues to seek out reminders of her trauma.  That can look like a family member, oftentimes me, disappointing her.  Sometimes it's just in her own mind (a failed friendship or what she perceives to be a failed relationship I had, for example - which didn't impact her at all) or sometimes it's something I've failed to do for her, such as show up to a pot luck with a contribution.

She has never been diagnosed OCD that I know of, but I believe she would be if she sought help.  The anger looks impulsive to outsiders, like flipping a switch, it comes out of no where and is very intense.  Her forehead crinkles up like she's mad, and her dissociative state looks like she's "lost" in a different time and place.  She actually gets a confused look or her face, acts confused, and says "I'm confused" sometimes even.  She becomes rather childlike.  It can occur when she's at her OCD worst, if that makes sense.  She will compulsively over correct herself and others, she comes across as very commanding with very little patience.  She has a biting tongue in those moments, yet still appears childlike (like a lost child).  She will often cry and talk about her abusive father after a particularly bad raging episode where she deeply dissociates.  Later, she cannot remember the rage or the tears.

b

[I Am Redeemed]

iar,
You may want to look into trigger point injections (with a pain block and with or without steriods) for your neck muscle spasms.
b

I have heard about something like that being a possible solution. I've had these knots in my trapezius muscle on the right side for over twenty years. I don't know what it would be like to not have these muscles be tense.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I am just coming back from a summer in a dissociative state. Just now realizing the extent... taking cold showers every morning to anchor myself in my body.

There was no rage. Dissociation, for me, is just fleeing from pain. I go in my mind and I stop feeling. The emotions are still there, but they are... Dimmed. I hide in fantasies instead of memories, because memories hurt too much.

Everyone can dissociate, and I personally see my mother "dissociation during rage" to keep her from confronting her actions more like psychosis than dissociation; she gets on the border line of sanity... Get it? Border line?  .

Her dissociation, to me, is when she cuts off from her emotions almost completely and fall back into a calm state, where she is depressed, but not crying. Just... On automatic mode. With dimmed emotions.

I can be completely dissociated from myself, and still go on in life like I am not. But maybe, to an exterior person, my usually warmer self would feel distanced, disconnected a bit. The words are the same, but the warmth has gone.

Because when I disconnect from pain, I also disconnect from love.

[Riv3rW0lf]

https://pediaa.com/what-is-the-difference-between-dissociation-and-depersonalization/amp/

So term wise, I think what pwBPD experience when they rage is depersonalization.  It's a type of dissociation, but I think it important to agree on the terms, because all of us probably use dissociation to one degree or another, seeing how challenging our childhood were.

[Turkish]

Years later after we split, I recounted the time with my ex that I let our baby fall asleep on my shoulder before his bath time. I went into the kitchen to tell her (fearfully). After I walked out, she slammed the fridge door hard enough to make a huge mess on the floor as several bottles fell and broke.

When I told her, she believed me, and seemed stressed that she didn't remember that incident.

When my mom was living with me and increasingly angry I wouldn't return her to her Hoard property, she came in the kitchen while I was cooking dinner for us, got in my face waving her notebook and threatening me (and my buddy who "stole" her truck) with a lawyer. I reverted emotionally to Little Turkish being berated and smacked around for... reasons (whenever she dysregulated). I looked into her eyes which were inches from my face and they instantly dilated. I was leaning back into my space. It kind of freaked me out, but I talked her down.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Ho, interesting.

Seems like there is also such a thing as Maladaptive Daydreaming, which is not dissociation. So I wasn't dissociated per say.

https://maladaptivedaydreaming.org/blogs/md/maladaptive-daydreaming-vs-dissociation

So Turkish,

Like, from what I gathered, there are a lot of dissociation disorder, one of them being dissociative amnesia. Would you say your ex was more prone to it, or was she experiencing like... All the types of dissociation at different times?

The story about your mother reminds me of one of my own. I think it was just a rage, but my mother was likely in a depersonalization state. While she might go through waves of derealization too.

Would people with BPD actually experience almost all the dissociative disorders at one point or another because of their lack of self? I mean... I can see how not having a sense of self would lead to almost a constant state of dissociation, making them experience all the types?

Or maybe it's the other way around. The emotions are so intense that you start dissociating until you are in a complete dissociated state, leading to the sense of having no self. So would the symptom "shifting self" and "feeling empty" just be the result of dissociation?

I am rewriting the DSM-5 today, I clearly know better.      

[Turkish]

Riv3rW0lf,

When my ex lived with us for many months while living her double life with her Beau (then husband, then ex-H), she was a different  person. It was both scary and fascinating. 31 going on 13... or maybe 21 as was her Beau at the time. Mirroring?

Now 41, she's still on the path of consuming self-help/self-awareness books to the max. There's nothing wrong with self-improvement, but at 41 you still don't know who you are? The wounds run deeply (and she telegraphs this on social media). To this day, I can't comprehend not knowing one's Self, flaws and all, and I certainly have flaws and had some when I was younger that hobbled me. I never thought, "who am I? I don't know," despite me moving from Cali to Oregon in 1996 to do a reset, not entirely functional. Even then, I knew who I was (I just checked my memories this morning after I saw your post: naw, I was OK with my Self even then, flaws and some BPD-ish traits even then).

As for my mother even before something like dementia started easing in? I moved out at 18, so my experiences were from afar. To this day, I respected my orphaned 1st Wave feminist mother for bucking against The Man/System in the 60s, 70s and into the 80s and beyond. Yet I can't help but think how much conflict she took part in due to her PTSD, Depression, Anxiety and BPD. How much did she dissociate when I was a child when I had no language or context?

1983/84 were very bad years for us. Homeless, on the run from The Law/Man/System. I wonder how much she dissociated to deal? She went through a major breakdown in 1989/90 when I moved out and was living 50 miles away. Very bad.

[Suassíos]

author=Outdorenthusiast When I see her face now, I know to validate feelings (talk to the cave man) and keep healthy boundaries - it can’t be fixed by me or rationalized.  If she can’t bring it under control - I respectfully step away until she can.  Eventually the cave man brain will get tired out and the hippocampus rational brain will take over and I can talk to her again like a normal human.

Hi thank you for sharing what you have learned from your experiences.

I am curious of what you do when you “talk to the cave man”. Are there particular words or phrases that work well and/or others that really do not work?

I appreciate that everyone and every situation  is different but also how long from dissociation before you can communicate normally?

Thank you.